• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Could Steve have been switched out of the original fighter pass with Byleth?

Who was originally going to be the fifth fighter?

  • Byleth. Sakurai had early access to Fire Emblem plans. He never changed it.

    Votes: 33 51.6%
  • Steve. Yep, Sakurai was so uninterested that he delayed him with two Nintendo reps.

    Votes: 9 14.1%
  • Neither. It was changed to Byleth, but Steve never was planned. We never saw the real 5th.

    Votes: 2 3.1%
  • Maybe Sakurai lied and the DLC wasn't predetermined?

    Votes: 3 4.7%
  • Don't know, don't care.

    Votes: 16 25.0%
  • SEPHIROTH!!!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sora. He won the Smash Ballot but Sakurai couldn't get the rights from Disney on time.

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    64
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
Ever since the first fighter pass ended with Byleth, I've been very skeptical. Fire Emblem: Three Houses wasn't even announced at the time when Super Smash Bros. Ultimate was released. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and ARMS were released too late to get representatives, yet Three Houses which was released after Ultimate gets in the Fighter Pass? Sure, Sakurai had decided to put fighters before their games but he decided on Ultimate's roster far more in advance than the other Smash games. Was Byleth even concieved at the time? Also, after Terry's showcase, Sakurai announced this new Fighter Pass. While we rejoiced that there wouldn't be just one character left at the time, I think he might have been using the new pass as a way to delay the final character. Steve has been rumored from the very beginning with every credible leaker saying he's going to be in Ultimate before the game was out. And with Min Min as the first character in Fighter Pass Vol 2 after getting a spirit in the base game pretty much confirms that Vol 2 wasn't planned at launch. And now we got today's announcement of Steve and Sakurai explaining how Nintendo practically slaved him to bring a difficult character into Smash. A guy with glasses intimidated him to put Steve in! Why? Maybe Sakurai was obligated to put Steve in from the beginning because he was one of the DLC characters Nintendo picked for him but it was so hard to work with a stiff blocky character in a fighting game and the deadline for the fifth character was coming that Sakurai requested to change the final character to a simpler character. Nintendo agreed to allow a new Fire Emblem character as long as Sakurai makes six additional DLC characters including Steve. Reggie has said the DLC characters would be ones you'd never expect in Smash. And the way each fighter was packaged with a new stage, spirits and music implied a new franchise. In the first Fighter Pass, Byleth was the only first-party character and the only character to represent a series already represented. If you switch Byleth with Steve, the first pass would have been consistent as all the characters would be third-party characters representing their series for the first time and would be old enough to be chosen with the base game characters.
 

Dissent

Bananaman Formerly Known As Sails
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
243
Location
Western MA
NNID
dotDissent
This explains the in-joke of Sakurai being recorded as he puts up the poster for Byleth. It was to imply it was last minute.
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
12,158
NNID
Nelson340
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
Steve took more time to make than Byleth. Byleth was made by the same division of the team that worked on Hero, and they worked on Byleth for six months. Steve was made by the same division that worked on Terry, and they worked on him for eleven.
 

Guybrush20X6

Creator of Lego Theory
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
15,882
NNID
Guybrush20X6
3DS FC
4253-3477-4804
Switch FC
SW-2140-7758-3904
I think that Character 5 was always going to be a Nintendo character.

Think about it, the pass is worth as much as 4 packs so there had to be one that didn't have royalties attached to it.
 
Last edited:

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
Isn't it weird that Sakurai couldn't put Rex in because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was released too late, but he included a character from a game that came a year after Ultimate?
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
37,949
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
Isn't it weird that Sakurai couldn't put Rex in because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was released too late, but he included a character from a game that came a year after Ultimate?
No.

Because the criteria for base game and DLC were different.

Byleth was chosen because his game came out at a certain time. Rex couldn't fill that niche because his game was too early.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
No.

Because the criteria for base game and DLC were different.

Byleth was chosen because his game came out at a certain time. Rex couldn't fill that niche because his game was too early.
Too early? The last Banjo-Kazooie game came in 2008, and games coming nine years later is "too early?" Joker's game came a year earlier than Rex. The time criteria for the DLC Fighter Pass 1 was not new games. It's characters that could have been put in the base game but were chosen to be put behind a paywall. He planned Fighters Pass 1 with the roster. It was only Fighters Pass 2 that came later. And besides, old established characters should be easier to work with than concepts from TBA games. If Byleth really was picked back then, what would be the risks of the Fire Emblem creators developing him to be something different from what Sakurai wanted to put in a fighting game, or the game getting cancelled leaving Sakurai with scrapped ideas? Sure, Sakurai has picked characters in development before, but Pokémon X and Y was already released before Greninja was revealed, and while Corrin was released four months before Fire Emblem Fates was released in Japan, Smash 4's DLC was decided at the end of the game development unlike Ultimate's DLC decided first. Though I guess you can look at Corrin (and Roy debuting in Melee) as proof that Sakurai looks at early development of Fire Emblem games. Was he involved in the Fire Emblem series?
 

DonkaFjord

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
1,292
NNID
DonkaFjord
Too early? The last Banjo-Kazooie game came in 2008, and games coming nine years later is "too early?" Joker's game came a year earlier than Rex. The time criteria for the DLC Fighter Pass 1 was not new games. It's characters that could have been put in the base game but were chosen to be put behind a paywall. He planned Fighters Pass 1 with the roster. It was only Fighters Pass 2 that came later. And besides, old established characters should be easier to work with than concepts from TBA games. If Byleth really was picked back then, what would be the risks of the Fire Emblem creators developing him to be something different from what Sakurai wanted to put in a fighting game, or the game getting cancelled leaving Sakurai with scrapped ideas? Sure, Sakurai has picked characters in development before, but Pokémon X and Y was already released before Greninja was revealed, and while Corrin was released four months before Fire Emblem Fates was released in Japan, Smash 4's DLC was decided at the end of the game development unlike Ultimate's DLC decided first. Though I guess you can look at Corrin (and Roy debuting in Melee) as proof that Sakurai looks at early development of Fire Emblem games. Was he involved in the Fire Emblem series?
I think it just depends on things behind the scenes and how things fall into place. ARMS and Splatoon started with placeholder characters (Nintendo characters with stretchy fist guns and blocks of tofu/rabbits, respectively.) So a game like that would be harder to pick a character from early on in development because they do game mechanics first then workd building.

I assume maybe Intelligent System might work on the character designs and stories first before game design. Who knows since we aren't there.
 

Dissent

Bananaman Formerly Known As Sails
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
243
Location
Western MA
NNID
dotDissent
SWF/Smash Boards, pre-Brawl, was FILLED TO THE BRIM with speculation and theories. What happened to this community to make it so people actively try to shutdown discussion of them? Sad...
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,489
Location
Germany
I Think Byleth and Min Min switched places i mean Sakurai knows a lot of People hate more FE Characters so he tricked people into Buying the Fighters Pass before Byleth
Example
Price Pass 25$
price character1-4 24$
nobody who likes the first 4 Characters would wait until everyone is released and even if they do They lose 1 Costume And they paid only 1$ less!
So he put mr.advertising Byleth at the end of the 1st Pass!
Is at least a Theory!
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,321
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
I Think Byleth and Min Min switched places i mean Sakurai knows a lot of People hate more FE Characters so he tricked people into Buying the Fighters Pass before Byleth
Example
Price Pass 25$
price character1-4 24$
nobody who likes the first 4 Characters would wait until everyone is released and even if they do They lose 1 Costume And they paid only 1$ less!
So he put mr.advertising Byleth at the end of the 1st Pass!
Is at least a Theory!
I don't think anyone was "tricked" into buying the Fighter's Pass. Joker was way outside the current scope of speculation, so he was the ideal way to kick off the pass. Hero and Banjo followed, revealing a cultural phenomenon and a fan-favorite at E3, where all eyes would be. That leaves us with the comparatively smaller Terry and Byleth. Nintendo probably arranged for Byleth to coincide with the Ashen Wolves DLC, to go with the goal of "Someone from a game people would be playing by then." Plus, Byleth was chosen in advance, so they probably needed to space out their game and their inclusion in Smash.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
37,949
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
SWF/Smash Boards, pre-Brawl, was FILLED TO THE BRIM with speculation and theories. What happened to this community to make it so people actively try to shutdown discussion of them? Sad...
It's because this one is just blatantly wrong and anyone with any shred of insight into the development process can tell its wrong.
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,489
Location
Germany
But sti
I don't think anyone was "tricked" into buying the Fighter's Pass. Joker was way outside the current scope of speculation, so he was the ideal way to kick off the pass. Hero and Banjo followed, revealing a cultural phenomenon and a fan-favorite at E3, where all eyes would be. That leaves us with the comparatively smaller Terry and Byleth. Nintendo probably arranged for Byleth to coincide with the Ashen Wolves DLC, to go with the goal of "Someone from a game people would be playing by then." Plus, Byleth was chosen in advance, so they probably needed to space out their game and their inclusion in Smash.
But still I would have less of a Problem with Byleth, if Min Min a Character far longer existing came before Byleth considierng we didnt get Rex and Pyra because the Game wasnt out long Enough, I mean did we really need 8 Fire-Emblem Lords just Swap Chrom with Black Kinght and it would Piss me a little less of! Why more FE Fighters, Music and Spirts than Zelda

Ps: Im not haing on FE Fans in general I realy just Want after 2/3 Games more Than 3KIrby and 4,5Zelda Characters(Link=1, Zelda=1, Ganondorf=0,5, Shiek = Impa is a much better choice so 0,5, a Younger Link= Pretty Important so = 1, Another one?=0,5)
 
Last edited:

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
I don't mind having a bunch of Fire Emblem reps in the game. If a small series could end up with more representation in Smash than Nintendo's favorite Mario series, that could be awesome. And at least Byleth got a bow and arrow and a bunch of other weapons beside his sword. Though the sword is the reason Robin, Corrin and Byleth couldn't break the trend with their uniqueness. But Fire Emblem: Three Houses having a 2019 release date really makes Sakurai's excuse around 2017 games released too late a moot point. And no, Oracle Link Oracle Link , Byleth didn't switch with Min Min. ARMS was released too late when they planned the DLC, so if Byleth switched with anyone, it'd have to be Steve from Minecraft if Vergeban should to be trusted. He has been very spot on with his predictions. The only thing he got wrong was the first DLC fighter being from Square Enix. Hero being the second fighter is actually close enough.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,940
Location
Battle Royal Dome
Oh my god, no. People seriously need to stop with this "switching of orders" crap. It's moronic and tired at this point.

The roster for the base game was finalized in, what, 2015? That's why characters from 2017 games were simply too late. The Smash team couldn't include anyone else for base because they had to devote their time and resources to the characters they already had planned. And even then, they needed more time to add Piranha Plant (evidence suggests Plant was intended to be a base roster inclusion, such as it being the only DLC character to have a Palutena's Guidance).

DLC is a different story. DLC is able to be worked on character-by-character, rather than trying to make an entire game along with it. So, through DLC, they are able to make more recent characters should they so choose. Since none of the rest of Fighter's Pass 1 fit this criteria, Nintendo wanted a character who had a recent game on the Switch. Someone Switch owners could play as "right now", rather than having to get a PS4 if you wanted to play Joker's game, or an Xbox if you wanted to play Banjo's games. And they wanted it to be first party, which is why Hero didn't fit that criteria. Three Houses was coming out at around the right time for what Nintendo was looking for, which is why Byleth is chosen.

Additionally, Sakurai has already made up for not being able to include an ARMS rep in the base roster. He might do the same with Rex. We'll see, though it's worth noting that Nintendo is the primary decision-maker for Fighter's Pass 2, so it hinges on whether Nintendo would agree with Sakurai to include Rex since he missed his chance, or whether they would shoot for other characters instead.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
The staff at Nintendo didn't even know Byleth was in. Meanwhile, Vergeban knew Steve was coming two years before he did, and considering how he leaked the whole roster precisely saying all veterans are returning, Ridley, Simon, Isabel, Ken and Incineroar would be newcomers, Isaac would be an Assist Trophy, Banjo-Kazooie and Luminary/Erdrick (Hero) would be in Fighters Pass 1, Terry would be the fourth character in Fighters Pass 1, he must be working for Nintendo if he knew who's going to be in the game. Also, discussions about Steve getting into Smash started from Ultimate's development and constantly scrapped.

Oh, and while the idea of Three Houses did start around the time Fates was released, it was put on hold as they developed Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia and only really picked up on Three Houses after Echoes was released in 2017! BOOM! Byleth could not be in the plans for Fighters Pass 1 because Three Houses was in it's infancy at the time and they were working on Echoes. Unless Byleth was the first character concieved for the game, or they jotted down something as generic as "Protagonist of the newest Fire Emblem game," he couldn't have made it on to the plans. If they had planned for a new Fire Emblem character back, Alm or Celica would have been more likely because Echoes was a remake of Gaiden so it would be easier to plan DLC because of the Gaiden source material. Marking down a DLC character from a game that has just been scrapped or delayed in favor of a Fire Emblem Gaiden remake would be a poor decision to make.

And if Steve was planned from the beginning and constantly scrapped due to his complexity and an employee with glasses pushed Sakurai to finally get Steve out as the second fighter of Fighters Pass 2, Steve must be the original fifth fighter. He was supposed to be in the original fighter pass but Sakurai hated working on him so he used a second Fighter Pass to delay him and had a swordfighter from the new Fire Emblem game as an easy substitute. Come on, all the evidence fits better than Sakurai already having a moveset ready for a character that hadn't been developed yet. With Roy, Corrin and Greninja, their inclusions were decided later in their Smash debut's development as past Smash games had their rosters more fluid through development with characters scrapped or added late. In Ultimate's numbering system, Roy was #25, the second to last Melee character. And while Greninja was planned based on concepts, he was revealed after X and Y was released. And DLC for Smash for Wii U and 3DS was planned late which is why Mewtwo and Lucas had trophies, so Fates was developed enough by the time Sakurai decided to introduce Corrin in the DLC. And we all know Bayonetta won an election to get into Smash's DLC.

But when Sakurai decided to make all the veterans return for Ultimate, he vowed no cuts and so he did everything to get all the characters from Smash 4 into the new game, plus the ones who hadn't been seen since Brawl or Melee. It was tough negotiations for the likes of Snake and Cloud. And he decided on what Newcomers should go in, and Nintendo picked out some third-party DLC characters. He refused fan suggestions because the DLC was made with the base roster. And only when Sakurai played Fire Emblem: Three Houses when he struggled with Steve did he change his DLC plans. And at the cost of being forced to do another Fighter Pass which due to it's lateness gave us the ARMS rep that was originally too late to use.

I mean look at the timeline, Fire Emblem: Three Houses was released just four days before Hero came to Smash Ultimate. And then the direct two months later showcasing Banjo's moveset showed a trailer for Terry with Sakurai revealing that more fighters are coming to Smash Ultimate after the then-unannounced fighter. Byleth was revealed in January, the same month he was released and six months after his game. And when Byleth was released, Sakurai revealed the additional DLC fighters afterward will be in a second Fighters Pass containing six fighters. It's a good thing Byleth was shown as the final fighter before the new pass because it would be difficult to find six more unrepped third-party franchises without spirits.
 

DonkaFjord

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
1,292
NNID
DonkaFjord
I think the thing people forget about Pokémon and Fire Emblem is that the Smash team is aware that each new game brings new characters. That's why FE and Pokémon can get newer characters added into the game because the team does exactly that- they jot down new Pokémon/new FE lord on the plans and then talk to Gamefreak/Intelligent Systems. Greninja was added/chosen solely on rough character design documents for example.

Things like Splatoon and ARMS and Wonderful 101 however change characters throughout development because the gameplay mechanics and engine were built first. Splatoon had rabbits and tofu blocks before and ARMS/W101 used Nintendo characters at first.

Games like FE and Pokémon work on character designs first or very early on in the design process because they already have a gameplay system with clear character needs (more monsters, more lords, etc.)

Also I see it thrown around a lot that Sakurai didn't like working on Steve. That isn't what he said- he said it'd be difficult. There was a lot of love and care put into the character and Sakurai is well known to play the game, enjoy it, and even highly praise it in his Famitsu column. I think hated is a strong word.

This whole argument is kinda pointless because I am sure there are a few characters in different levels of progress at a time, especially with 3rd party because they usually want to view prototypes to see if it is up to standards.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,321
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Also I see it thrown around a lot that Sakurai didn't like working on Steve. That isn't what he said- he said it'd be difficult. There was a lot of love and care put into the character and Sakurai is well known to play the game, enjoy it, and even highly praise it in his Famitsu column. I think hated is a strong word.
Per this. Only a fan would screw around with a Diamond Sword/Pickaxe toy on-camera. Sakurai kept putting it off not because he didn't want to work on Steve, but because he didn't think he could pull it off... Except he did pull it off, and here we are now.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
To put this into perspective, let's compare it to Xenoblade Chronicles 2's development. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 entered development shortly before Xenoblade Chronicles X launched on April 29 2015. Or more precisely, during the later half of Xenoblade X's development in July 2014 as a response to the fans' reaction to the changes. Xenoblade 2 was concieved just two months before Super Smash Bros. for 3DS was released! Fire Emblem: Three Houses started development after completion of Fates which was released in June 2015. Xenoblade 2 was already ahead of Three Houses by a year! And then Three Houses was put on hold while they worked on Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. Three Houses was going for something new with a school system while Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was meant to be a sequel to Shulk's game but focusing on new characters. Sorry, but it looks like Rex was designed first. Rex was designed before a character in the first Fighters Pass but he got relegated to a Mii costume. It's obvious by the way Byleth looks like he was inspired by Alm from Echoes.

So the year headstart of Xenoblade 2 and how Three Houses started as a Fire Emblem school 3DS game that was put on hold for a Gaiden remake. That just makes it so obvious that if they could have put a Three House rep in the DLC plans, then Sakurai lied about Rex being too late for the roster.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
37,949
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
To put this into perspective, let's compare it to Xenoblade Chronicles 2's development. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 entered development shortly before Xenoblade Chronicles X launched on April 29 2015. Or more precisely, during the later half of Xenoblade X's development in July 2014 as a response to the fans' reaction to the changes. Xenoblade 2 was concieved just two months before Super Smash Bros. for 3DS was released! Fire Emblem: Three Houses started development after completion of Fates which was released in June 2015. Xenoblade 2 was already ahead of Three Houses by a year! And then Three Houses was put on hold while they worked on Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. Three Houses was going for something new with a school system while Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was meant to be a sequel to Shulk's game but focusing on new characters. Sorry, but it looks like Rex was designed first. Rex was designed before a character in the first Fighters Pass but he got relegated to a Mii costume. It's obvious by the way Byleth looks like he was inspired by Alm from Echoes.

So the year headstart of Xenoblade 2 and how Three Houses started as a Fire Emblem school 3DS game that was put on hold for a Gaiden remake. That just makes it so obvious that if they could have put a Three House rep in the DLC plans, then Sakurai lied about Rex being too late for the roster.
Cite your sources if you're confident you are right.

Some of this is just laughably wrong.
 

TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
12,069
Location
New World, Minecraft
The staff at Nintendo didn't even know Byleth was in. Meanwhile, Vergeban knew Steve was coming two years before he did, and considering how he leaked the whole roster precisely saying all veterans are returning, Ridley, Simon, Isabel, Ken and Incineroar would be newcomers, Isaac would be an Assist Trophy, Banjo-Kazooie and Luminary/Erdrick (Hero) would be in Fighters Pass 1, Terry would be the fourth character in Fighters Pass 1, he must be working for Nintendo if he knew who's going to be in the game. Also, discussions about Steve getting into Smash started from Ultimate's development and constantly scrapped.

Oh, and while the idea of Three Houses did start around the time Fates was released, it was put on hold as they developed Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia and only really picked up on Three Houses after Echoes was released in 2017! BOOM! Byleth could not be in the plans for Fighters Pass 1 because Three Houses was in it's infancy at the time and they were working on Echoes. Unless Byleth was the first character concieved for the game, or they jotted down something as generic as "Protagonist of the newest Fire Emblem game," he couldn't have made it on to the plans. If they had planned for a new Fire Emblem character back, Alm or Celica would have been more likely because Echoes was a remake of Gaiden so it would be easier to plan DLC because of the Gaiden source material. Marking down a DLC character from a game that has just been scrapped or delayed in favor of a Fire Emblem Gaiden remake would be a poor decision to make.

And if Steve was planned from the beginning and constantly scrapped due to his complexity and an employee with glasses pushed Sakurai to finally get Steve out as the second fighter of Fighters Pass 2, Steve must be the original fifth fighter. He was supposed to be in the original fighter pass but Sakurai hated working on him so he used a second Fighter Pass to delay him and had a swordfighter from the new Fire Emblem game as an easy substitute. Come on, all the evidence fits better than Sakurai already having a moveset ready for a character that hadn't been developed yet. With Roy, Corrin and Greninja, their inclusions were decided later in their Smash debut's development as past Smash games had their rosters more fluid through development with characters scrapped or added late. In Ultimate's numbering system, Roy was #25, the second to last Melee character. And while Greninja was planned based on concepts, he was revealed after X and Y was released. And DLC for Smash for Wii U and 3DS was planned late which is why Mewtwo and Lucas had trophies, so Fates was developed enough by the time Sakurai decided to introduce Corrin in the DLC. And we all know Bayonetta won an election to get into Smash's DLC.

But when Sakurai decided to make all the veterans return for Ultimate, he vowed no cuts and so he did everything to get all the characters from Smash 4 into the new game, plus the ones who hadn't been seen since Brawl or Melee. It was tough negotiations for the likes of Snake and Cloud. And he decided on what Newcomers should go in, and Nintendo picked out some third-party DLC characters. He refused fan suggestions because the DLC was made with the base roster. And only when Sakurai played Fire Emblem: Three Houses when he struggled with Steve did he change his DLC plans. And at the cost of being forced to do another Fighter Pass which due to it's lateness gave us the ARMS rep that was originally too late to use.

I mean look at the timeline, Fire Emblem: Three Houses was released just four days before Hero came to Smash Ultimate. And then the direct two months later showcasing Banjo's moveset showed a trailer for Terry with Sakurai revealing that more fighters are coming to Smash Ultimate after the then-unannounced fighter. Byleth was revealed in January, the same month he was released and six months after his game. And when Byleth was released, Sakurai revealed the additional DLC fighters afterward will be in a second Fighters Pass containing six fighters. It's a good thing Byleth was shown as the final fighter before the new pass because it would be difficult to find six more unrepped third-party franchises without spirits.
Sakurai said he played an early or pre-release version of Three Houses or something so he’d know how to make the fighter. It is highly likely Nintendo wanted a new FE character when the Fighters’ Pass plans finalized (or began?) in early 2018 (or maybe later 2017 if we assume Sakurai wasn’t including himself when he said the developers didn’t know about the plans until January 2018; Banjo & Kazooie were also negotiated sometime in 2018 so idk), and they knew they could keep DLC going long enough to include the latest FE protagonist.

He didn’t hate working on Steve, it was just hard to make him the way he envisioned. People like to point to a face he made and what he said about Nintendo, but it’s clear something difficult can be tiring even if worth it and he likes it, he was also being humorous, what he said about not just choosing his favorites could’ve just been to assure they don’t just choose his favorites since he loves Minecraft and Nintendo is partly calling the shots, and he and his team put a lot of love into Steve’s contents and his trailer; he even made a short video for Minecraft Live and showed his love for the game a bit during Steve’s and Alex’s presentation.

He could’ve also declined if he didn’t think he could make him; he’s said he can say no if that’s so. Steve was also only confirmed to have been discussed for five years; that could mean they didn’t actually settle on anything until Fighters’ Pass 2 was planned, and according to Imran Khan, FP2 was decided around the time of E3 last year (I think he means the pass itself, not necessarily that the characters were finalized then and there; he says it at 17:02 in this video: https://youtu.be/58WAbKCJ06A).

And Sakurai wasn’t forced to do another Fighters’ Pass because of characters, but because Nintendo wanted one and he agreed to it. They could’ve just been bonus characters otherwise. The timeline still fits for Byleth to have always been planned as the ending to FP1. Maybe there was a switch-around, but there’s no good evidence to really support that, which is why most believe there wasn’t or don’t really care (personally I don’t care either way but eh...).

I also highly doubt Steve was so difficult it took more than a year to finish him, or at least not much more. It is very likely the difficulty of the stage stuff, combined with the coronavirus, was just confusing for a good amount of time and possibly why the schedule for character reveals was weird this year.


To put this into perspective, let's compare it to Xenoblade Chronicles 2's development. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 entered development shortly before Xenoblade Chronicles X launched on April 29 2015. Or more precisely, during the later half of Xenoblade X's development in July 2014 as a response to the fans' reaction to the changes. Xenoblade 2 was concieved just two months before Super Smash Bros. for 3DS was released! Fire Emblem: Three Houses started development after completion of Fates which was released in June 2015. Xenoblade 2 was already ahead of Three Houses by a year! And then Three Houses was put on hold while they worked on Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. Three Houses was going for something new with a school system while Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was meant to be a sequel to Shulk's game but focusing on new characters. Sorry, but it looks like Rex was designed first. Rex was designed before a character in the first Fighters Pass but he got relegated to a Mii costume. It's obvious by the way Byleth looks like he was inspired by Alm from Echoes.

So the year headstart of Xenoblade 2 and how Three Houses started as a Fire Emblem school 3DS game that was put on hold for a Gaiden remake. That just makes it so obvious that if they could have put a Three House rep in the DLC plans, then Sakurai lied about Rex being too late for the roster.
Maybe he lied about Rex, maybe he didn’t. I think it’s worth noting Sakurai and his team likely started on Ultimate planning soon after Smash 4 DLC finished up (according to a translation by PushDustIn, it seems Sakurai actually didn’t even take a break after Smash 4: https://twitter.com/pushdustin/status/1171812740328869889?s=21). This would include Ultimate’s roster. Perhaps Rex and such weren’t finalized or fully conceptualized by the time the basegame Ultimate roster was finalized, but I don’t know; maybe they were, but Sakurai didn’t like the idea of using early Xenoblade concept stuff for some reason, or maybe FE and Pokémon (Smash 4 Greninja) stuff is prioritized while Xenoblade isn’t pushed as much (or it’s just Nintendo wanted FE, and Pokémon having enough early stuff to work with + new stuff being easy to work in later).

If FE:TH was already in the works or planned for some years, though, I can easily imagine Nintendo plopping down “new FE game” at the end of the FP1 plans since it’d be released a year later and the game was far enough into planning and development for Sakurai to use a lot of concepts etc. and try out before it’s release so he and his team could begin work on Byleth early sometime in 2019.
 
Last edited:

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
Cite your sources if you're confident you are right.

Some of this is just laughably wrong.
I got the development facts mainly from Wikipedia, and got a bit of Fire Emblem Wiki information for Three Houses. But since Wikipedia has a rule about citations, let's see where they got the info from. Well, looks like they got the info about Xenoblade Chronicles 2 starting development in July 2014 in response to fan reactions to Xenoblade Chronicles X from Siliconera. Game Informer also backs up the claim of being a response to the fans' reactions to Xenoblade Chronicles X. Development on the game started off difficult because the technical limitations of the Switch weren't known at the time. Monolith Soft just imagined what sort of hardware it would be until Nintendo producer Hitoshi Yamgami greenlit the project. (Siliconera) After that, Xenoblade 2's development picked up speed as they had some architecture from and elements from X (TIME). Then again, Three Houses' four year development cycle with a two-year break is rather fast isn't it? Both Wikipedia and Fire Emblem Wiki said Three Houses was put on hold, though Fire Emblem Wiki said "fledgling development," which I don't know, is it a tiny amount of development alongside Echoes? Maybe the brief start in 2015 and fledgling development helped boost it after Echoes was released.

And TheCJBrine TheCJBrine if Fighters Pass 1 wasn't finalized until 2018 and Xenoblade 2 was released in 2017, Sakurai could have totally put Rex there. He could have done a last minute character swap on the pass if the finalization was after Xenoblade's release and not have to give him a consolation Mii Costume. Even if it was late 2017 that the Fighter's Pass was finalized, Xenoblade 2 would have gone gold and Sakurai would have played some kind of demo or have seen the trailers. If it was decided in 2015, then Rex getting the consolation costume would make a lot more sense. Was Banjo-Kazooie negotiated in 2018 or was Sakurai talking to Microsoft about a three-year-old deal? I know Sakurai had a lot of issues bringing back the third-party veterans, especially Cloud. And yeah, the Coronavirus did delay Steve too because Sakurai had to work on his own, but if he didn't already work on Steve before the virus hit, it would have taken him forever to finish him, probably would have gotten a 2021 release instead. If the virus didn't hit, he'd probably have gotten Steve out a month after Min Min.
 

TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
12,069
Location
New World, Minecraft
And TheCJBrine TheCJBrine if Fighters Pass 1 wasn't finalized until 2018 and Xenoblade 2 was released in 2017, Sakurai could have totally put Rex there. He could have done a last minute character swap on the pass if the finalization was after Xenoblade's release and not have to give him a consolation Mii Costume. Even if it was late 2017 that the Fighter's Pass was finalized, Xenoblade 2 would have gone gold and Sakurai would have played some kind of demo or have seen the trailers. If it was decided in 2015, then Rex getting the consolation costume would make a lot more sense. Was Banjo-Kazooie negotiated in 2018 or was Sakurai talking to Microsoft about a three-year-old deal? I know Sakurai had a lot of issues bringing back the third-party veterans, especially Cloud. And yeah, the Coronavirus did delay Steve too because Sakurai had to work on his own, but if he didn't already work on Steve before the virus hit, it would have taken him forever to finish him, probably would have gotten a 2021 release instead. If the virus didn't hit, he'd probably have gotten Steve out a month after Min Min.
I think FP1 started in very early 2018 if not late 2017. I just know Sakurai said something about the developers not knowing about it until January 2018 in a column I think, though I can’t find the original source, though I found this which mentions it as the 18th thing in a list of info:
https://nintendoeverything.com/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-no-goku-ballot/ (saying it was planned without the developers’ will and I guess it wasn’t a thing in early January, if in January at all I guess).

It’s also mentioned on that page how Ultimate’s plan (for the basegame) was completed on December 16th, 2015, so before Smash 4 DLC actually finished it seems.

Iirc I think when he said Rex was too late, he meant for basegame, though it is weird to say that while talking about his costume coming with DLC characters so he could’ve been one of the characters instead :S I guess he just wasn’t prioritized.

As for Banjo & Kazooie, I believe it was 2018. I don’t think Sakurai spoke on when they were negotiated, I think Rare just implied it + some members on this website, or at least one, said the negotiations for the duo were completed in April 2018.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
Well, his excuse for relegating Rex to a Mii Costume looks even worse now, doesn't it? Not only did he include a Fire Emblem character from a game that came after Ultimate's release, you're telling me the plans for DLC actually came after Xenoblade Chronicles 2, ARMS, and the other 2017 releases were out? At least the second Fighters Pass gave us an ARMS character. I never played Xenoblade Chronicles 2 but the idea of Rex and Pyra as a fighter duo sounds like a cooler option than Mii Swordfighter Rex. Announcing that Rex Mii and saying his game was too late to be implemented gave us a rule that no character from 2017 or after could be in the Fighters Pass and Byleth broke that rule spectacularly with a 2019 debut.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
If it makes you feel better, don't forget we've still got 4 spots for Fighter's Pass 2. Min Min proved they don't care that much if a fighter already had a costume, so Rex might get in
Yes, we have four spots left. But that doesn't matter. Sakurai said what he said. Even now that we have Min Min, it still doesn't matter because she was in a new pass that came later. And I don't care if Rex & Pyra end up being one of the four upcoming fighters. Also, technically Min Min never had a costume. She only proved that Spirits don't matter anymore for DLC. If anyone proves that costumes don't matter, it'd be some veterans who have Mii Fighter costumes, plus Chrom and King K. Rool. Costumes don't really deconfirm fighters. It was Sakurai's wording announcing Rex's costume that did. Wording that made Byleth's announcement so weird. "Mii costumes deconfirm" is just another fan rule and it ignores the fact that some characters in the base game have Mii costumes.
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
View attachment 290466
How is this thread still going
Because there is something not right about a 2017 game character for plans that have only been finalized in 2018. Joker's original reveal trailer didn't show any gameplay because he was still early in development, meaning work on these DLC characters started months after the DLC was "finalized."
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,321
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Because there is something not right about a 2017 game character for plans that have only been finalized in 2018. Joker's original reveal trailer didn't show any gameplay because he was still early in development, meaning work on these DLC characters started months after the DLC was "finalized."
...I mean, yeah. The characters and the content they brought with them were finalized, then they could start work on them later. They obviously couldn't whip up a fully functioning Joker in a couple of months.

(...I think that's what you're talking about? I'm kinda confused...)
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
...I mean, yeah. The characters and the content they brought with them were finalized, then they could start work on them later. They obviously couldn't whip up a fully functioning Joker in a couple of months.

(...I think that's what you're talking about? I'm kinda confused...)
Basically it means Sakurai could have put Rex in Fighters Pass 1 but instead he lied about the timing.
 

BUFF MY PUFF

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
123
Location
under your bed
The staff at Nintendo didn't even know Byleth was in. Meanwhile, Vergeban knew Steve was coming two years before he did, and considering how he leaked the whole roster precisely saying all veterans are returning, Ridley, Simon, Isabel, Ken and Incineroar would be newcomers, Isaac would be an Assist Trophy, Banjo-Kazooie and Luminary/Erdrick (Hero) would be in Fighters Pass 1, Terry would be the fourth character in Fighters Pass 1, he must be working for Nintendo if he knew who's going to be in the game. Also, discussions about Steve getting into Smash started from Ultimate's development and constantly scrapped.

Oh, and while the idea of Three Houses did start around the time Fates was released, it was put on hold as they developed Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia and only really picked up on Three Houses after Echoes was released in 2017! BOOM! Byleth could not be in the plans for Fighters Pass 1 because Three Houses was in it's infancy at the time and they were working on Echoes. Unless Byleth was the first character concieved for the game, or they jotted down something as generic as "Protagonist of the newest Fire Emblem game," he couldn't have made it on to the plans. If they had planned for a new Fire Emblem character back, Alm or Celica would have been more likely because Echoes was a remake of Gaiden so it would be easier to plan DLC because of the Gaiden source material. Marking down a DLC character from a game that has just been scrapped or delayed in favor of a Fire Emblem Gaiden remake would be a poor decision to make.

And if Steve was planned from the beginning and constantly scrapped due to his complexity and an employee with glasses pushed Sakurai to finally get Steve out as the second fighter of Fighters Pass 2, Steve must be the original fifth fighter. He was supposed to be in the original fighter pass but Sakurai hated working on him so he used a second Fighter Pass to delay him and had a swordfighter from the new Fire Emblem game as an easy substitute. Come on, all the evidence fits better than Sakurai already having a moveset ready for a character that hadn't been developed yet. With Roy, Corrin and Greninja, their inclusions were decided later in their Smash debut's development as past Smash games had their rosters more fluid through development with characters scrapped or added late. In Ultimate's numbering system, Roy was #25, the second to last Melee character. And while Greninja was planned based on concepts, he was revealed after X and Y was released. And DLC for Smash for Wii U and 3DS was planned late which is why Mewtwo and Lucas had trophies, so Fates was developed enough by the time Sakurai decided to introduce Corrin in the DLC. And we all know Bayonetta won an election to get into Smash's DLC.

But when Sakurai decided to make all the veterans return for Ultimate, he vowed no cuts and so he did everything to get all the characters from Smash 4 into the new game, plus the ones who hadn't been seen since Brawl or Melee. It was tough negotiations for the likes of Snake and Cloud. And he decided on what Newcomers should go in, and Nintendo picked out some third-party DLC characters. He refused fan suggestions because the DLC was made with the base roster. And only when Sakurai played Fire Emblem: Three Houses when he struggled with Steve did he change his DLC plans. And at the cost of being forced to do another Fighter Pass which due to it's lateness gave us the ARMS rep that was originally too late to use.

I mean look at the timeline, Fire Emblem: Three Houses was released just four days before Hero came to Smash Ultimate. And then the direct two months later showcasing Banjo's moveset showed a trailer for Terry with Sakurai revealing that more fighters are coming to Smash Ultimate after the then-unannounced fighter. Byleth was revealed in January, the same month he was released and six months after his game. And when Byleth was released, Sakurai revealed the additional DLC fighters afterward will be in a second Fighters Pass containing six fighters. It's a good thing Byleth was shown as the final fighter before the new pass because it would be difficult to find six more unrepped third-party franchises without spirits.
Thing is, who really cares?
 

Sean Wheeler

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,032
Thing is, who really cares?
You know what? I probably shouldn't have put in "Don't Know, Don't Care" in the poll.

Also,
One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong here.

JokerThird-PartySega/AtlusPersona 5New franchiseSeptember 15 2016Pre-Rex
HeroThird-PartySquare EnixDragon Quest XI (default)
Dragon Quest III (alt)
New franchiseJuly 29 2017 (default)
February 10 1988 (alt)
Pre-Rex
Banjo & KazooieThird-PartyMicrosoft/RareBanjo-KazooieNew franchiseJune 29 1998Pre-Rex
TerryThird-PartySNKFatal Fury: King of FightersNew franchiseNovember 25 1991Pre-Rex
BylethFirst-PartyNintendo/Intelligent SystemsFire Emblem: Three HousesOverrepped franchiseJuly 26 2019Post-Rex

And here is one more that would be more consistent with the others than the last one.
SteveThird-PartyMicrosoft/MojangMinecraftNew franchiseNovember 18 2011Pre-Rex
 
Last edited:

lady_sky skipper

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
810
Location
Hawaii
Honestly, this is a non-issue to me since we were going to get both Byleth and Steve anyway so it really doesn't matter which Challengers Pass Byleth is in as long as they got released. We really can't assume Challengers Pass 2 is going to be all Nintendo characters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom