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Correlation Between Popularity and Viability

Kink-Link5

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Do you enjoy being an *******, or is that just a side effect from being ignorant?
I'd prefer if you had a problem with me to state it outright through PMs, rather than using vaguely worded snide statements. There's no need for this kind of brash and childish behavior on the forums.

If you have something more to say about the differences between Pichu and Pikachu please do, but if not, then again, there is no reason to make these kinds of off-topic posts.
 

Bones0

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I'd prefer if you had a problem with me to state it outright through PMs, rather than using vaguely worded snide statements. There's no need for this kind of brash and childish behavior on the forums.
The hypocrisy of this statement is literally making me lol.
 

Kink-Link5

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The hypocrisy of this statement is literally making me lol.
In what regard? You make a claim that Pikachu can do something without proof of it, and I call you out on it, then you berate me. It is impossible to show something not happening, while finding proof of it is a burden for the one making the claim.
 

Krynxe

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Quit this dispute

In the future, Kink-Link5, avoid trying to call out an individual user on something, especially if you're not entirely sure yourself. If another user makes a claim that you think is wrong or disagree with, you can calmly point it out, ask questions, or state your own thoughts without being disrespectful.

Bones, no need to perpetuate the issue.
 

ph00tbag

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The point I'm making is that I don't believe there is a correlation between viability and casual popularity. Fox and Sheik were likely the first to be discovered and rise up because of their casual popularity. However, as the casual demographic and the competitive demographic began to separate more and more, we see less obvious characters rise to the top, such as Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff's incredibly slow rise to the top was likely a result of her not being popular on the casual front, but later gaining popularity on the competitive front.
Well I don't disagree with that point. In fact, that's what my last post was trying to illustrate, so why you see the need to dispute it on those grounds is beyond me. My issue is that you seem to also be suggesting that competitive popularity informs viability. My point is that this is impossible because viability is an immutable property of the game's balance. Instead, I'm arguing that viability affects competitive popularity.

And Fox and Sheik really aren't that popular among casual players in the grand scheme of things. My point from the beginning was that the majority of the popularity they enjoy is because they're easy to win with. That falls under competitive popularity, and that popularity comes from their viability.
 
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This is correct, but Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff don't follow that model. Captain Falcon likely became increasingly viable due to his popularity, and Jigglypuff, while very viable, is played barely more than Ganondorf in tournaments (data from SSBPD).
 

Jockmaster

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yeah Jiggs and ICs are the two who I feel defy this mold; they are (relatively) unpopular yet still quite viable
 

ph00tbag

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This is correct, but Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff don't follow that model. Captain Falcon likely became increasingly viable due to his popularity, and Jigglypuff, while very viable, is played barely more than Ganondorf in tournaments (data from SSBPD).
Falcon's viability hasn't changed. His popularity has as his options have become more well-understood.

Puff is kinda overrated. Hbox is just really ****ing good at Melee.
 

Bones0

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In what regard? You make a claim that Pikachu can do something without proof of it, and I call you out on it, then you berate me. It is impossible to show something not happening, while finding proof of it is a burden for the one making the claim.
If the claim I made was controversial, I would have included proof. I berated you... after you berated me (your so called "call out"). So basically I was just throwing out a cool little smash-fact, you called me out, and you were wrong. GTFO
 

Tero.

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More often it's the other way around. Characters who wouldn't be particularly popular get more use due to how good they are. The Star Fox games are a relatively niche series, and few people really play spacies because they think Fox and Falco are the greatest mercenaries in the Lylat system. Most people play them because they're clearly among the best characters in the game. Sheik was around for really only part of Ocarina of Time, and in smash, she's pretty much always boring. But she's a popular character because she's easy to play at a large range of skill levels.

On the other hand, Link is probably the most popular character in the game. He's still ****.
Not necessarily.
Myself for example:
Even though I never played any Starfox or Fire Emblem Game I used to play mostly Fox, Falco, Marth and Roy long before knowing about tier lists and stuff back in 02.
Also Sheik because she's a freakin ninja - While she may only has been in one Zelda Game that one used to be the most popular and (2nd) best (after MM)

:phone:
 

Jockmaster

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Puff is kinda overrated. Hbox is just really ****ing good at Melee.
I think it's pretty common thinking that Puff shouldn't be S tier anymore, but that doesn't change the fact that she is just as viable as any other A tier character.

But yeah Hbox is just ****ing amazing
 

Skler

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People like playing good characters, so the good characters get picked more.

People used to think Link was good because of his shield grab, and he was picked often.

Then people thought Sheik was the best, so everybody played Sheik.

Now people think the current top characters are the best, and so they get picked all the time.

Why would a competitive community see anything but the best picks get picked frequently? There are a few outliers who are only confident in a certain character for a specific matchup, secretly believe their character is viable, or are competing for an entirely different reason than "to win the tournament." The people who don't pick the more viable picks are few and far between because that's what makes sense.

Edit: I know it might sound silly that somebody can be competitive and have their ultimate goal not be "to win the tournament," but it's totally possible. People set arbitrary goals for themselves all the time. I know I've wanted to switch my character before in certain tourmaments, but decided "**** it, I made it this far going straight Link, I'm going to see how far I can get."
 

Kink-Link5

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People like playing good characters, so the good characters get picked more.

People used to think Link was good because of his shield grab, and he was picked often.

Then people thought Sheik was the best, so everybody played Sheik.

Now people think the current top characters are the best, and so they get picked all the time.
How do you follow? No one is using Puff any more than any other time in the game's history; and Fox, Falco, and Sheik have always been on top. The movement of characters has little to no correlation on their use by top players, and the only game level to which this applies is like, way low ignorant assumption amateur level. Do you really have such a low presumption about "players" to think everyone jumps all over whoever the MBR puts in S?
 

DerfMidWest

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I think a lot of it is that when people see top players using characters well or doing cool things it inspires them to do the same.
 

Skler

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How do you follow? No one is using Puff any more than any other time in the game's history; and Fox, Falco, and Sheik have always been on top. The movement of characters has little to no correlation on their use by top players, and the only game level to which this applies is like, way low ignorant assumption amateur level. Do you really have such a low presumption about "players" to think everyone jumps all over whoever the MBR puts in S?
Fox and Falco were not always popular. You need to look further into the past to find that out.

Once Fox and Falco were decided to be good (around when the wave dash was discovered) they became more common. Still, Sheik was considered better for a long time, same with Marth. There's a reason Fox and Falco didn't really dominate until after the reign of Ken.

Also, there are far more puffs (more than just Darc and King lololol) since puff was considered decent. Do you remember pre-Mango puff? It was a very small number of players.
 

Bones0

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Fox and Falco were not always popular. You need to look further into the past to find that out.

Once Fox and Falco were decided to be good (around when the wave dash was discovered) they became more common. Still, Sheik was considered better for a long time, same with Marth. There's a reason Fox and Falco didn't really dominate until after the reign of Ken.

Also, there are far more puffs (more than just Darc and King lololol) since puff was considered decent. Do you remember pre-Mango puff? It was a very small number of players.
First tier list had Marth at 4th behind Sheik and both spacies, so idk how you can say people considered him better. I don't have any evidence of how popular they were back in the day so maybe someone who actually attended early tournaments can weigh in, but I've always had the sense that they were always very popular characters because of how fun they are.
 

Skler

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What was the first tier list? I recall a lot of the older players saying there was a time when anyone with a good shield grab was really strong, and that spacies didn't fit the bill.

I know during 06-07 I saw a lot more Sheik and Marth players, then people steadily started picking up spacies all the time. Sheik used to be everywhere before spacies were decided to be omgwtf good.

The only time I started seeing Puff exist except for the dedicated puff players was when Mango and Hbox were tooling everyone, but that could have just been me finally getting to play against Puff players.

I do wish the Melee community had a record of what characters were used in tournaments so we could go off something that isn't anecdotal evidence.
 

BEES

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Popular characters are popular because they're fun to play; being fun just happens to go hand-in-hand with being viable for the most part. Nobody wants to awkwardly struggle with Mewtwo when they could have a much easier, and enjoyable, experience playing Sheik or Fox.

The main exceptions to this would be the Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff. Both are extremely viable, yet underplayed because they function in such an off-kilter manner. Conversely, these two characters have the highest average ELOs on ssbpd. Interesting stuff.
Roy and Yoshi are quite a lot of fun despite their huge glaring weaknesses. It is those weaknesses that prevent them from being more popular competitively, not the experience of playing the characters--they're straightforward to learn. These are exceptions in the opposite direction, I'd say. I would agree that the spacies/falcon/marth/shiek are rewarding because of their ability to combo and control space, which happens to be what makes them good, and many other characters aren't great at one or both of those.
 

Purpletuce

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I don't know about Roy, but Yoshi isn't very straightforward to learn. . . to switch to DJC instead of SHFFL as your go-to aerial move, completely change how you use your shield, stop using a third jump to recover, and nearly remove the use of grabs(and stop JCing them) from your game isn't really straightforward. I think Yoshi is probably one of the least straightforward characters. . .
 

Zoler

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Better characters are more popular because they are more fun. More options = more fun. Winning = more fun. This is especially true with spacies.

Almost everyone enjoys a falco, fox or both on the side, doesn't matter who they main.
 

DerfMidWest

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I didn't enjoy the space animals before I started to learn tech skill stuff...
As I became a more technical player, they became more fun.
 

Purpletuce

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I think low tier is more fun, more new stuff to use/learn. How interesting is getting a kill with Fox's U-throw U-air, versus a kill with Yoshi using some obscure Yoshi shenanigans? Maybe I'm just weird. . . Although I also find a large amount of high tiers fun. . . my favorite characters(in order) are: Yoshi, Pika(lately), Puff, Marth, Fox. Is this weird?
 

Kimimaru

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Whichever characters people find more fun is totally subjective. I main Yoshi because he's the most fun character for me, but I still enjoy playing other characters like Falco, Roy, G&W, Ness, and Captain Falcon. In general, casual players don't think about many competitive aspects of the game and don't think too hard when playing.
 

Purpletuce

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Here is something strange! When I played casual, I played Marth/Falco. Now that I play competitive, I play Yoshi. Since most of my competitive experience is with Yoshi, his is significantly better than my other characters. I've trapped myself into a low tier! :x
 

odinNJ

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Same. When I played casual I used Falco mostly. But when I started to actually play well I used roy
 

Xyzz

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Falco is so much better than Yoshi / Roy, it won't take more than half maybe three quarters of a year in order to get better with him than those anyways, if you're somewhat serious ;)
 

Kimimaru

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There are already way too many Falco players. Low tiers for life!

Besides, Yoshi (not sure about Roy) isn't close to being fully explored yet and there are only a few competitive Yoshi players.
 

Purpletuce

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Yoshi is more interesting and fun then Falco, also, I haven't even played that long competitive. . . Hopefully I'll continue to improve at the rate I am now, and by that time I'll be a upper level player in state as Yoshi, as opposed to just-another-Falco.
 

Bones0

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What was the first tier list? I recall a lot of the older players saying there was a time when anyone with a good shield grab was really strong, and that spacies didn't fit the bill.

I know during 06-07 I saw a lot more Sheik and Marth players, then people steadily started picking up spacies all the time. Sheik used to be everywhere before spacies were decided to be omgwtf good.

The only time I started seeing Puff exist except for the dedicated puff players was when Mango and Hbox were tooling everyone, but that could have just been me finally getting to play against Puff players.

I do wish the Melee community had a record of what characters were used in tournaments so we could go off something that isn't anecdotal evidence.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists
 

Theftz22

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Luigi is obviously the most fun, I mean have you even seen that guy's WAVEDASH?? Marth is also really fun though cuz of dat range.
 
D

Deleted member

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Just wondering what others thought.
I think the Pokemon community is way ahead of us on this one. They rank their tiers on usage on the assumption that better pokemon will be used more often. Personally I think it's brilliant, but this community can't play the same kind of numbers game due to obvious constraints.

I think, and most people will probably agree with me here, that low tiers are more fun to play.
I think low tiers are more fun- to a point. Winning is fun, and better characters enable that flavor of enjoyment.

Go back to 2001. The competitive community back then was almost indistinguishable from the casual community. In many places, they were one and the same. There would have been many more Link, Pikachu, Kirby players in those days. But then, people realized that these characters weren't worth playing when they're really only marginally viable at best.
As someone who was there for the whole thing, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The first WEEK the game was out, the first short-hand term used for melee on this forum wasn't wavedashing or L-canceling, it was "FFS", short for Fox, Falco, Sheik.

kink link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

bones doesn't need to understand the dire intricacies of pikachu, and neither do we.
 

Purpletuce

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Smashboards has a love/hate with logical fallacies, did everyone here take the same class in High School? It should be noted I have no delusion of competitive success in smash, right now. The only reason I would stop playing the most fun character for me, in favor of a better character, would be if there was enough money in it to compare to my job. That being said, I would want to be able to beat everyone in my region before I bothered with that.

In my opinion, until I can beat, or at least play on par with Eggz, Silent Wolf, Bladewise, etc. there is no point in playing to win versus playing for fun. That being said, I acknowledge there is fun in winning, but I think Yoshi is fun enough in play and viable enough to win where I wil,l enjoy p,laying him more than a high tier.
 

Xyzz

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@Umbreon: I don't really think we are similar enough to the pokemon guys... It's a lot easier for them to swap over when new trends arise, as different pokemon don't really require learning a whole new techskill array and recognizing the tiniest differences between given situations.
Also at least I personally don't really play with a pokemon in my team, because it's fun / fits my preferred playstyle. They are all in there, because I felt they are the best suited for the specific roles on the team.
 
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