Data Complete Frame Data Repository - kuroganehammer.com

Lavani

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#86
What is gravity? I heard a Brawl explanation of the concept, and the dude just described what falling speed is.
Simply put, falling acceleration. Higher gravity = reaches max fall speed faster, and also loses upward velocity from jumping more quickly. It works much the same as real life gravity in that regard.

There's also a secondary effect in that characters with higher gravity take more vertical knockback, to offset their increased upward deceleration. Since hitstun is derived from knockback, this causes characters like Fox to suffer more hitstun from, say, Bowser's uthrow, than a character like Rosalina, even if they're being thrown to the same height.
 
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#87
Simply put, falling acceleration. Higher gravity = reaches max fall speed faster, and also loses upward velocity from jumping more quickly. It works much the same as real life gravity in that regard.

There's also a secondary effect in that characters with higher gravity take more vertical knockback, to offset their increased upward deceleration. Since hitstun is derived from knockback, this causes characters like Fox to suffer more hitstun from, say, Bowser's uthrow, than a character like Rosalina, even if they're being thrown to the same height.
This is the best description of gravity I've seen for a while.
 
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#88
There's also a secondary effect in that characters with higher gravity take more vertical knockback, to offset their increased upward deceleration. Since hitstun is derived from knockback, this causes characters like Fox to suffer more hitstun from, say, Bowser's uthrow, than a character like Rosalina, even if they're being thrown to the same height.
Oh wow, I never thought that there was anything more to it than a knockback value working against fall speed and weight. Suddenly Greninja's bizarre falling statistics make sense. How a character can fall so fast but still seem so "light" in regard to vertical knockback moves.

Imagine how not interesting Smash would be if Sakurai finished his Physics 101 course to know how gravity actually works. The concept of falling speed is this giant wrench thrown into the equation. Makes every character react differently to the same combos and moves at the same percentages.
 
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#89
Oh wow, I never thought that there was anything more to it than a knockback value working against fall speed and weight. Suddenly Greninja's bizarre falling statistics make sense. How a character can fall so fast but still seem so "light" in regard to vertical knockback moves.

Imagine how not interesting Smash would be if Sakurai finished his Physics 101 course to know how gravity actually works. The concept of falling speed is this giant wrench thrown into the equation. Makes every character react differently to the same combos and moves at the same percentages.
Gravity is a good thing designed like this, it's what makes Bowser so hard to combo* despite his weight.

*relatively
 

ArikadoSD

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#91
Why did you 'delete' the guides and made a post in every character's boards about that?

just to scare everyone? D:

also, do you have the amount of frames the ledge trump animation lasts?
 
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#92
Why did you 'delete' the guides and made a post in every character's boards about that?

just to scare everyone? D:

also, do you have the amount of frames the ledge trump animation lasts?
The admins "deleted" them.

Also sadly I don't. I probably should go find it at some point.
 

Teshie U

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#93
Correct me if I'm missing something here.

Ryu's SH air time is listed as 31 frames.

Nair takes 28 total frames and has a hitbox on frame 4.

Yet somehow Ryu can SH double nair and the 2nd hitbox comes out. Shouldn't that require his shorthop to be 32 frames?
 
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#94
Correct me if I'm missing something here.

Ryu's SH air time is listed as 31 frames.

Nair takes 28 total frames and has a hitbox on frame 4.

Yet somehow Ryu can SH double nair and the 2nd hitbox comes out. Shouldn't that require his shorthop to be 32 frames?
FAF = first actionable frame, he can act on frame 28, so there should be a hitbox on frame 31 if buffered correctly.
 
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#96
Yes.

This is a good explanation on why FAF is used on Kurogane Hammer:

I'm sure you know this because you've been around long enough, but many moves are can be interrupted before the animation is complete. Knowing the FAF is what's actually important, so referring to that as the duration of the move could be considered somewhat misleading, ESPECIALLY if there are special cases when you can interrupt a move with certain actions but not others (Melee Marth dtilt behaves this way I believe). I think it's better that duration refers to total length of the animation and FAF is the first frame you can act after using the move as this way is less likely to confuse people once they understand what FAF means. Overall, it's not really important. We could go back to IASA frames. I do see where you're coming from.
I will save this here for future reference.
 

Vipermoon

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#99
What should they be? I don't remember what it was prepatch.
There was a typo in my post. You accidentally put the damage buff on DB2*. Lucina's is correct. Marth's DB2 should be 3 and 4%. The old DB3 (down) was also 3 and 4%. Now it is 4.5 and 5.5%.
 

Wintermelon43

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Masonomace

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So something to bring up for clarification. Shulk's FH air time is 60 frames after the 5 frame jumpsquat, & Dair's FAF is 61. So how am I able to interrupt the Dair's endlag into landing lag with a special such as Air Slash Back Slash or Vision upon landing? Wouldn't I be 1 frame too late?
 
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Lavani

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While you can't input an aerial on the same frame you land, a special can be input in the air as well as on the ground. As a result, your input still goes through and takes priority over landing lag.
 
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Masonomace

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Awesome thanks Lavani. So by that, there'd be some sort of "priority buffer window" that specials can override your endlag / landing. Is there a certain window amount to be exact?

Also, for anyone to double confirm if my frames are correct, I went into Training Mode & attempted to test Shulk's SH & FH air times for the Monado Decisive & Hyper arts by following the steps from Foxy's Guide to Testing & Labbing. Here as follows:

翔 (Monado Jump)
SH Air Time = 43 frames
FH Air Time = 68 frames

疾 (Monado Speed)
SH Air Time = 34 frames
FH Air Time = 51 frames

盾 (Monado Shield) & D盾 (Decisive Shield)
SH Air Time = 35 frames
FH Air Time = 52 frames

D翔 (Decisive Jump)

SH Air Time = 41 frames
FH Air Time = 64 frames

D疾 (Decisive Speed)
SH Air Time = 31 frames
FH Air Time = 46 frames

H翔 (Hyper Jump)
SH Air Time = 39 frames
FH Air Time = 60 frames

H疾 (Hyper Speed)
SH Air Time = 25 frames
FH Air Time = 37 frames

H盾 (Hyper Shield)
SH Air Time = 31 frames
FH Air Time = 46 frames

EDIT:
Limit Break Cloud
SH Air Time = 33 frames
FH Air Time = 47 frames
 
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Lavani

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Awesome thanks Lavani. So by that, there'd be some sort of "priority buffer window" that specials can override your endlag / landing. Is there a certain window amount to be exact?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. If you're using an aerial where your FAF is the same frame you'll land, you have the standard 10 frame buffer to work with. If you're just trying to land into something like grounded Yoshi downB after an airdodge without getting landing lag, you'll have to be frame perfect with your input.

Some specials wonk out when you try to use them like that too, but it doesn't affect characters I play so I haven't bothered looking into it. DK's downB acts pretty oddly in that situation though, as an example.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Also, for anyone to double confirm if my frames are correct, I went into Training Mode & attempted to test Shulk's SH & FH air times for the Monado Decisive & Hyper arts by following the steps from Foxy's Guide to Testing & Labbing. Here as follows:

翔 (Monado Jump)
SH Air Time = 43 frames
FH Air Time = 68 frames

疾 (Monado Speed)
SH Air Time = 34 frames
FH Air Time = 51 frames

盾 (Monado Shield) & D盾 (Decisive Shield)
SH Air Time = 35 frames
FH Air Time = 52 frames

D翔 (Decisive Jump)

SH Air Time = 41 frames
FH Air Time = 64 frames

D疾 (Decisive Speed)
SH Air Time = 31 frames
FH Air Time = 46 frames

H翔 (Hyper Jump)
SH Air Time = 39 frames
FH Air Time = 60 frames

H疾 (Hyper Speed)
SH Air Time = 25 frames
FH Air Time = 37 frames

H盾 (Hyper Shield)
SH Air Time = 31 frames
FH Air Time = 46 frames

EDIT:
Limit Break Cloud
SH Air Time = 33 frames
FH Air Time = 47 frames
I double checked for you and these are all correct.
Normally I'd give you a cookie but I'm fresh out, sorry.
 

Masonomace

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Okay so. More Shulk stuff. Shulk's modified Back Slash in a previous patch made it so that the Startup phase took place sooner, by 9 frames. So we know it's frame 22, but the Startup phase's hitbox activity is from 22 - 23. Frame 24(or 25?) is when the Falling phase of Back Slash begins & continues falling while Shulk is airborne. The frame data for Shulk on Kurogane has it as 22- simply because the Startup & Falling phase have the exact same values spread across their frame data (damages, angles, knockbacks, etc.) So it's up to Aero if he wants to have a separate row for the distinction of hitbox activity's sake. The Landing phase hitbox of Back Slash from standing on the floor will hit someone on frame 34 even though Shulk lands on frame 33. This means that the hitbox activity window should be frame 1 - 2. A short hop & inputting Back Slash during the jumpsquat makes Shulk land on frame 39, & Monado arts affect the SHBS input too. . .

Also, here's some more Air Time values.

*EDITED correct frames in*
Lightweight Palutena
SH Air Time: 52 frames
FH Air Time: 88 frames

翔 (Monado Jump) Kirby
SH Air Time: 42 frames
FH Air Time: 65 frames

疾 (Monado Speed) Kirby
SH Air Time: 34 frames
FH Air Time: 50 frames

盾 (Monado Shield) Kirby
SH Air Time: 34 frames
FH Air Time: 51 frames

EDIT: Would Ledge Jump Air Times matter enough to get data on them? 'Cus realistically this would rarely happen ever in a match but eh.
 
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Would Ledge Jump Air Times matter enough to get data on them? 'Cus realistically this would rarely happen ever in a match but eh.
Rather see double jump air times if it's not too difficult. You can just buffer a double jump and count from there right?

Any later jumps would be nice too but those would be a lot more work.
 

Masonomace

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Rather see double jump air times if it's not too difficult. You can just buffer a double jump and count from there right?

Any later jumps would be nice too but those would be a lot more work.
I was thinking of this too. If one performed a SH & just tapped L to get the jumpsquat, then buffering the doublejump in between L taps, then it could work. I haven't tried this yet so I'm just spitballing that. Maybe I could give this a shot.

But I was just thinking. Is there anywhere I can find footstool jumpsquat data? I kinda realized it for a while but re-doing things for refreshing my memory got me interested in wondering the numbers. This shows a column for footstool, but I think that's the amount of frames you go into tumble fall after being footstooled.

EDIT: Alright so. I tried this with Shulk & noticed a helpful tip in Training Mode at 1/4x (Hold L) speed. Since Shulk's jumpsquat data is 5 frames, I tested to see when holding a jump button would cause Shulk to Full Hop & then not.

For Shulk, hold jump & then frame skip forward 2 frames by tapping L. Then after L is tapped, hold the jump button again & then tap L again. This makes you input a jump on frame 4 which will lead to Shulk beginning the doublejump on frame 6. The other way to see is by doing the 1 frame skip method by holding L, press the jump button but immediately let go of L as you're pressing the jump button. This done successfully will show you Shulk's jumpsquat on frame 1. After this, frame skip forward 2 frames to show Shulk's jumpsquat at frame 3, then hold the jump button. Followed by that, tap L to skip to Shulk's jumpsquat at frame 5 & then tapping L again shows the doublejump at frame 7. Rinse & repeat.


Doing so, I got Shulk's DJ Air Time, being 62 frames from jumpsquat. Sorry in advance if I made no sense / that was confusing. I'm still getting used to Foxy's mighty test labbing scenarios.:)
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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For future reference, the landing frame doesn't count when looking at airborne frames, and if you're ever unsure as to when the character actually lands, try pausing the game on what you believe to be the last airborne frame, then hold shield and tap L to see if you get airdodge landing lag. It's usually fairly obvious though.


Now; it's perfectly possible to buffer DJ's during the jumpsquat as has been said, though I'd like to mention a few things.
For Shulk, hold jump & then frame skip forward 2 frames by tapping L. Then after L is tapped, hold the jump button again & then tap L again. This makes you input a jump on frame 4 which will lead to Shulk beginning the doublejump on frame 6. The other way to see is by doing the 1 frame skip method by holding L, press the jump button but immediately let go of L as you're pressing the jump button. This done successfully will show you Shulk's jumpsquat on frame 1. After this, frame skip forward 2 frames to show Shulk's jumpsquat at frame 3, then hold the jump button. Followed by that, tap L to skip to Shulk's jumpsquat at frame 5 & then tapping L again shows the doublejump at frame 7. Rinse & repeat.
For the sake of clarity you need to specify that you are holding the jump button then tapping L, letting go of the jump button then tapping L, and finally holding the jump button again and tapping L.
To make things clear, the first scenario you mentioned pauses the game and let's you view the first frame of the DJ on the 6th frame following the original jump input, i.e. the first airborne frame for Shulk. The second scenario pauses the game on the second frame of the DJ on the 7th frame following the original jump input, i.e. the second airborne frame.
There is also no need to buffer the DJ during the jumpsquat. Let's say you're testing Cloud who has 4 jumpsquat frames. You could attempt to do a 1 frame skip to land on the first frame of the jumpsquat, then let go of the jump button and do a 2 frame skip, then hold the jump button again and do a 2 frame skip, and this would work out fine, showing you to first frame of the DJ on the 5th frame all up. But you would still DJ on the same frame if you simply did a 2 frame skip jump input, let go of jump and skipped forward another 2 frames, then held jump again and skipped forwards yet another 2 frames. Both methods would make Cloud DJ on the 5th frame, though you'd now be looking at different frames of the DJ.
Using this method you could in fact calculate how much airtime the DJ grants you from the point at which it was used.
As to why this data would be wanted, I'm not sure, but it would be easy enough to gather.
 

Masonomace

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Here ya go:
Doublejump Air Times (Multi-jumps not included)
:4mario:: 63 frames
:4luigi:: 76 frames
:4peach:: 66 frames
:4bowser:: 56 frames
:4yoshi:: 86 frames
:rosalina:: 81 frames
:4bowserjr:: 59 frames
:4wario:: 56 frames
:4dk:: 62 frames
:4diddy:: 62 frames
:4gaw:: 58 frames
:4littlemac:: 52 frames
:4link:: 53 frames
:4zelda:: 64 frames
:4sheik:: 54 frames
:4ganondorf:: 47 frames
:4tlink:: 65 frames
:4samus:: 70 frames
:4zss:: 62 frames
:4pit:: 51 frames
:4palutena:: 60 frames
:4marth:: 63 frames
:4myfriends:: 55 frames
:4robinm:: 59 frames
:4duckhunt:: 63 frames
:4kirby:: 54 frames
:4dedede:: 46 frames
:4metaknight:: 41 frames
:4fox:: 45 frames
:4falco:: 65 frames
:4pikachu:: 60 frames
:4charizard:: 51 frames
:4lucario:: 64 frames
:4jigglypuff:: 67 frames
:4greninja:: 55 frames
:4rob:: 63 frames
:4ness:: 86 frames
:4falcon:: 54 frames
:4villager:: 64 frames
:4olimar:: 68 frames
:4wiifit:: 65 frames
:4shulk:: 62 frames
:4drmario:: 55 frames
:4darkpit:: 51 frames
:4lucina:: 63 frames
:4pacman:: 67 frames
:4megaman:: 53 frames
:4sonic:: 62 frames
:4mewtwo:: 93 frames
:4lucas:: 92 frames
:4feroy:: 47 frames
:4ryu:: 49 frames
:4cloud:: 55 frames

:4miif::4mii::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword: will come later, because my hands hurt.:shades: Anyone who wants to double check or confirm these are more than welcome to.
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Also, VIllager's frame data on Kurogane has Dthrow dealing 4.5%, but in Training Mode the throw deals ~6%.
 
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Ninety

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Heya, love your resource. Is there any interest in documenting custom's data, or is that just too much work for a relatively unimportant aspect of the game?
 
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