Competitive vs Casual Smash 4: The vacuum theory!

[Dantarion]

So, a lot of people are worried about what Sakurai has said in interviews about Smash 4 so far, but do a lot of you really think about what truly separates a competitive Smash player from a casual one? Is it the amount of time you spend playing? Not always. Is it the amount of effort you put into it? Not always. The main difference between casual and competitive in my eyes is exposure to other players. Did you learn how to play Smash in a vacuum?

Imagine this. You are M2K, and it is release day of Melee.

You go into a hyperbolic time chamber, and play Smash all day every day, and emerge today.
Is it even possible for you to be good at the game? Even if you spent all day playing it, since release, is it really even possible for you to make the amount of discoveries that take place instantly in an online community such as Smashboards?

I'm sure most of you would say no.

The truth is, anyone that plays Smash started in a vaccuum. Maybe you didn't play by yourself, maybe you played with your older brothers, maybe you played with a few friends. Maybe you even played at a game club or small tournament community.

Does anyone have any memories about what they thought about the game back then? What was OP, what was cheap, etc? I am sure a lot of you remember some thing or another you thought was the best way to win that now seems silly, like spamming moves(64 kirby fsmash, shiek dash attack, marth fsmash, peach dsmash) that just seemed to be the BEST way to play.

But you could stop there. You could accept the current state of the game in your eyes and enjoy it like that.

If you are on this site, it means you probably had a moment of truth sometime in your Smash life where someone, or something, completely blew your mind about what Smash was. Your years of experience playing the game shattered by someone that simply learned smash in a bigger vacuum than you did.

Smash 4 is coming, and none of us on this site are arguably the target audience.

We can no longer enjoy the game inside a vacuum, because our vacuum has expanded into an online community that wants to tear apart the game piece by piece. We want to compare it to the previous 3 versions of the game, and hold it on the high pedestal of what the original games meant to us in our lives.

There is a large chance that no matter what they put on that game disc we all purchase, we will never have that feeling again.

In fact,I would even say that this doesn't apply to smash specifically, but to all of gaming in general. The thing that makes this harder for us is that while other competitive games have grown with their audiences, Smash has primarily stayed the same.

If you look at the evolution of games, you can see that the "casualization" trend is not just affecting smash, but almost every game genre in particular. The demographic for "gamer" has opened up to the world, and we are now in the minority.

Smash 4 will almost, without a doubt, be an extremely high rated game, with 9/10 reviews, and universal appeal. But a lot of us are looking for a game that Nintendo isn't trying to make.

A lot of you guys play Melee still. A lot of us still play Brawl. If Smash 4 isn't fun for me the way I want it to be, it may lead to be dropping Smash completely, and a lot of people already dropped Smash from their lives. With EVO coming up, there are a lot of big names popping up, but there are a lot of people missing, that for some reason or another, moved on from this game series.

I am not saying "SMASH 4 IS GONNA SUCK OMG I HATE SAKURAI" I'm just saying as a community its nice to look back and see what really got us into this series, and maybe prepare for what could be the nail in the coffin of a generation of smashers.

 

[Chiroz]

So, a lot of people are worried about what Sakurai has said in interviews about Smash 4 so far, but do a lot of you really think about what truly separates a competitive Smash player from a casual one? Is it the amount of time you spend playing? Not always. Is it the amount of effort you put into it? Not always. The main difference between casual and competitive in my eyes is exposure to other players. Did you learn how to play Smash in a vacuum?

Imagine this. You are M2K, and it is release day of Melee.

You go into a hyperbolic time chamber, and play Smash all day every day, and emerge today.
Is it even possible for you to be good at the game? Even if you spent all day playing it, since release, is it really even possible for you to make the amount of discoveries that take place instantly in an online community such as Smashboards?

I'm sure most of you would say no.

The truth is, anyone that plays Smash started in a vaccuum. Maybe you didn't play by yourself, maybe you played with your older brothers, maybe you played with a few friends. Maybe you even played at a game club or small tournament community.

Does anyone have any memories about what they thought about the game back then? What was OP, what was cheap, etc? I am sure a lot of you remember some thing or another you thought was the best way to win that now seems silly, like spamming moves(64 kirby fsmash, shiek dash attack, marth fsmash, peach dsmash) that just seemed to be the BEST way to play.

But you could stop there. You could accept the current state of the game in your eyes and enjoy it like that.

If you are on this site, it means you probably had a moment of truth sometime in your Smash life where someone, or something, completely blew your mind about what Smash was. Your years of experience playing the game shattered by someone that simply learned smash in a bigger vacuum than you did.

Smash 4 is coming, and none of us on this site are arguably the target audience.

We can no longer enjoy the game inside a vacuum, because our vacuum has expanded into an online community that wants to tear apart the game piece by piece. We want to compare it to the previous 3 versions of the game, and hold it on the high pedestal of what the original games meant to us in our lives.

There is a large chance that no matter what they put on that game disc we all purchase, we will never have that feeling again.

In fact,I would even say that this doesn't apply to smash specifically, but to all of gaming in general. The thing that makes this harder for us is that while other competitive games have grown with their audiences, Smash has primarily stayed the same.

If you look at the evolution of games, you can see that the "casualization" trend is not just affecting smash, but almost every game genre in particular. The demographic for "gamer" has opened up to the world, and we are now in the minority.

Smash 4 will almost, without a doubt, be an extremely high rated game, with 9/10 reviews, and universal appeal. But a lot of us are looking for a game that Nintendo isn't trying to make.

A lot of you guys play Melee still. A lot of us still play Brawl. If Smash 4 isn't fun for me the way I want it to be, it may lead to be dropping Smash completely, and a lot of people already dropped Smash from their lives. With EVO coming up, there are a lot of big names popping up, but there are a lot of people missing, that for some reason or another, moved on from this game series.

I am not saying "SMASH 4 IS GONNA SUCK OMG I HATE SAKURAI" I'm just saying as a community its nice to look back and see what really got us into this series, and maybe prepare for what could be the nail in the coffin of a generation of smashers.

You make a lot of excellent points, yet I do not agree with you completely. I'll just summarize my overall thoughts into a short statement.

I am not looking to have wavedashing or L-Cancelling back into the game. The only thing I hope for is that Smash 4 keeps the Smash essence, and is what every other Smash is, in my eyes: A highly free mobility fighting game which has a much deeper focus on positioning and strategy than on memorization and timing. A fighting game that is centered around weighting options and outsmarting your opponent rather than having this be second to being the fastest at executing commands. A fighting game with free flow dynamic strings instead of pre-set combos, one where you make up the combos depending on what you think is best given a different set of conditions instead of memorizing a really long input chain and executing it mechanically.

I believe Smash 4 will probably be able to satisfy me in all of those terms. Things like the overall speed, hitstun, hit endlag, etc, I do have my preferences but overall they won't change my opinion about if this game is great or not. I might prefer Melee's hitstun or overall speed, but Brawl is still an awesome game in my eyes and it still keeps everything I like about Smash at heart.

I know many people don't share my sentiments, but at least for me I know Smash 4 will be a great game. I do hope though that Smash 4 is closer to my preferences than Brawl.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

SSB4 will lead to a large drop in participants of Brawl tournaments and a small drop in participants of Melee tournaments. I'm not really worried about the future of Smash competitively.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I hope Sakurai watches EVO, sees what true love is! (Unless he already found it in money)

 

[smashbrolink]

I hope Sakurai watches EVO, sees what true love is! (Unless he already found it in money)

I hope he doesn't. EVO isn't a bad place, but I would rather he go with what works to draw in more players, rather than what's overly competitive and serves to segregate the community again, when designing the next Smash.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I hope he doesn't. EVO isn't a bad place, but I would rather he go with what works to draw in more players, rather than what's overly competitive and serves to segregate the community again, when designing the next Smash.

Perhaps.. But I still think he has some prejudices. It sometimes appears like he sees the competitive community no different than the regular player sees it- some bunch of elitists that remove half of the game features and don't want to just "Have fun" and "Play how it was intended". I know for a fact he doesn't watch tournaments since he wasn't aware APEX even existed when asked the other time... Does he really know what kind of people we are? How much we love Smash? Does he even know we donated so much to cancer, motivated by that love? Before it's too late I would like that for the first time in almost 15 years he get a chance to see the real thing, and his old game shining in the spotlight more than any other time.

See if he wants those players in his game or not... It has nothing to do with the words you keep repeating over and over- I doubt he would see those flaw in this, it will truly be a happy event with nothing but joy.

 

[smashbrolink]

Perhaps.. But I still think he has some prejudices. It sometimes appears like he sees the competitive community no different than the regular player sees it- some bunch of elitists that remove half of the game features and don't want to just "Have fun" and "Play how it was intended". I know for a fact he doesn't watch tournaments since he wasn't aware APEX even existed when asked the other time... Does he really know what kind of people we are? How much we love Smash? Does he even know we donated so much to cancer, motivated by that love? Before it's too late I would like that for the first time in almost 15 years he get a chance to see the real thing, and his old game shining in the spotlight more than any other time.

See if he wants those players in his game or not... It has nothing to do with the words you keep repeating over and over- I doubt he would see those flaw in this, it will truly be a happy event with nothing but joy.

Well, if he does ever attend then I hope you're correct, but somehow I doubt he'd come away without seeing some sort of flaw in how some play the game.
Sakurai rarely takes the conventional into consideration when making new games; the very conception of the first Smash game should be evidence enough of that.XD

 

[El Duderino]

I hope he doesn't. EVO isn't a bad place, but I would rather he go with what works to draw in more players, rather than what's overly competitive and serves to segregate the community again, when designing the next Smash.

EVO is going to draw in more players .

 

[smashbrolink]

EVO is going to draw in more players .

I meant in terms of design choices, not in terms of the kind of meet-up.

 

[J1NG]

EVO is going to draw in more players .

With new Smash games on the way, on top of EVO, I certainly hope so. Though it may be a pipe dream, I would like Smash to be seen as an equal alongside games like Street Fighter or Marvel. I can only hope that Melee's EVO appearance will garner some respect for the game.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

What a frustrating read. I see very little what the first half of the post has anything to do with the second half. Please never write with an alternating font size again.

...and maybe prepare for what could be the nail in the coffin of a generation of smashers.

The release and meta development of the new game will also bring in a lot of piqued new players as well, on top of bringing back players who wanted more from the previous game, like myself. This is already happening to a degree; there was a recent influx of new members and trolls on Smash Boards, and I have seen a few threads about it. But you know, this is likely not to be the last Smash game ever made. I'm sure eventually there will be a Smash game that has a significant mechanic change that would make it as interesting and respectable than Melee, if not more, in the fighting game community.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I hope Sakurai watches EVO, sees what true love is! (Unless he already found it in money)

Yeah it's really a shame that Sakurai has decided to make this game Brawl 2 essentially, only with a much bigger cast, and tons of paid dlc. Oh and don't forget the extensive free ware. I mean really, people who want to play Mario in his usual overalls have to pay 5$? Ridiculous!

 

[Mr.Showtime]

I hope he doesn't. EVO isn't a bad place, but I would rather he go with what works to draw in more players, rather than what's overly competitive and serves to segregate the community again, when designing the next Smash.

I highly disagree with what you are saying. You realize that trying to "draw" more players due to a casual design still segregates the community. The idea is to find a balance between the two and let people play the game the way they want to. You do not force people to play a certain way...you are NEVER going to be able to do that unless the game is so linear that it plays for you. (At that point I think it won't even be considered a game, rather a movie). The definition of fun and game differ per person. Its a very subjective word that depends on the gamer themselves. If I'm playing an adventure game such as Zelda and I prefer to use the Bow and Arrow to damage a boss...that's my choice. This same idea can easily be represented in Smash. If I want to play a game "this" way, I'm completely entitled to do so.

Each person who plays a game has their own "experience". This "experience" can not be molded into words. You could say it was "fun", but as i said above it is a very subjective word that doesn't really answer the main question; Why? Do you see why I disagree?

 

[smashbro29]

Seeing as he's shooting for a between Melee and Brawl balance and Brawl was played pretty long term, I don't see Smash 4 failing competitively. Especially with DLC and updates.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Seeing as he's shooting for a between Melee and Brawl balance and Brawl was played pretty long term, I don't see Smash 4 failing competitively. Especially with DLC and updates.

Exactly. I just don't understand why people do not see that trying to make a game catered to one side is a great idea. This is such a bad marketing and game design move for a game that was once considered highly competitive.

 

[El Duderino]

I meant in terms of design choices, not in terms of the kind of meet-up.

I'm aware. Just pointing out an event like EVO, with its 2 million+ viewership, is a great opportunity to reach outside Smash's settled in audience. The competitive community is absolutely responsible for bringing in many new players as well.

 

[nLiM8d]

It felt like I was reading an IGN interview, anyhow that's the reality: Games ain't what they used to be. Most of the time we expect iterations to be bigger, better, faster, but the resources required to double down on ingenuity are hard to come by and the game suffers as a result.

I don't think there's a single person on the forums who wants this next game to fail, but by now we can pretty much expect that this game won't meet our expectations.

 

[smashbrolink]

I highly disagree with what you are saying. You realize that trying to "draw" more players due to a casual design still segregates the community. The idea is to find a balance between the two and let people play the game the way they want to. You do not force people to play a certain way...you are NEVER going to be able to do that unless the game is so linear that it plays for you. (At that point I think it won't even be considered a game, rather a movie). The definition of fun and game differ per person. Its a very subjective word that depends on the gamer themselves. If I'm playing an adventure game such as Zelda and I prefer to use the Bow and Arrow to damage a boss...that's my choice. This same idea can easily be represented in Smash. If I want to play a game "this" way, I'm completely entitled to do so.

Each person who plays a game has their own "experience". This "experience" can not be molded into words. You could say it was "fun", but as i said above it is a very subjective word that doesn't really answer the main question; Why? Do you see why I disagree?

No, I don't, since you're assuming Smash 4 is a purely casual design and that that's what I'm supporting.
Neither is the case.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't think mixing the two smashes would make for a good game. There's literally nothing good about brawl that isn't in melee. They could make it so smash 4 is as deep as melee without encroaching on what the casual gamer wants from the overall experience. My favorite thing about this discussion are the people who are asserting that technical depth could alienate the middle of the road players. The pseudo competitors who care about winning just enough to complain, but not enough to put forth the effort needed to improve. They are hands down the smallest part of the smash fanbase. If pleasing the competitive scene isn't important then why is it necessary to please this new group of players that exist between casual/hardcore?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I don't think mixing the two smashes would make for a good game. There's literally nothing good about brawl that isn't in melee. They could make it so smash 4 is as deep as melee without encroaching on what the casual gamer wants from the overall experience. My favorite thing about this discussion are the people who are asserting that technical depth could alienate the middle of the road players. The pseudo competitors who care about winning just enough to complain, but not enough to put forth the effort needed to improve. They are hands down the smallest part of the smash fanbase. If pleasing the competitive scene isn't important then why is it necessary to please this new group of players that exist between casual/hardcore?

Hit the nail on the head. I may need to re-read most of the articles, but my interpretation is not that he is compromising the two groups, but taking a game in a different direction altogether. He may just be setting up Smash 4 to be a game with enough settings that you can make it your own. There could also yet be some unseen things in the game that would it deep, at least in its own way...

 

[Demna]

I just want the game to be enjoyable for both casual and hardcore players.

 

[Chiroz]

I just want the game to be enjoyable for both casual and hardcore players.

Haven't they all been?

 

[Vkrm]

Haven't they all been?

Consider everyone in the melee scene today to be someone that brawl failed to please.

 

[Chiroz]

Consider everyone in the melee scene today to be someone that brawl failed to please.

The fact that Melee appeals more to most highly competitive players doesn't mean Brawl isn't enjoyable to some, just like not all casuals prefer Brawl.

Asking for this game to be favored over the others by every single person is too much in my opinion, yet it will be liked by basically anyone, I can assure you that.

We can only hope though that it will be favored by most.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Link's up-B was overpowered for the longest time in Melee.

 

[EddyBearr]

We all train in a vacuum and reveal our findings. When you're M2K, you look at frames and hitboxes and lag rates and knockback and etc.

There is a "best character" and a "best attack" in a certain situation. The online community is just a combination of vaccuum-found traits being used.

If you are M2K and sit in a vaccuum for years, you will be the perfect CPU.

The only thing that can't be gotten in the vacuum is the atmosphere. Player tendencies, playstyles, mind-games.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

No, I don't, since you're assuming Smash 4 is a purely casual design and that that's what I'm supporting.
Neither is the case.

Your assumption is false. Sakurai is finding a balance between the two. This is the correct way to go about in game design. You are just wanted the game to be built specifically for you. Which is not only selfish, but it won't happen. I would "like" the game to be competitively, but I am aware enough that this will never happen.

You are conflicted on how games are meant to be played, and there is actually no answer to that.

Games are going to be segregated. Have you ever played a game "EXACTLY" as someone else? You're either a psychic or a liar.

People can make the most non-competitive games competitive. For example, Super Mario Bros. 64...people run speed runs ALL the time for that...even today. That is the competitive side of that game. The casual is the every-day player that just wants to play the game for fun. You can not force a game to be centered towards a certain people. People will play the game they want to, regardless of how it was created.

It's like reading a book (please tell me you read a book before). You get a different interpretation of the story by each person that reads it.

 

[Demna]

Haven't they all been?

It's true, all smash games have been enjoyable. However, I personally think that Melee pleased more competitive players than casual and the opposite with Brawl.

 

[Chiroz]

It's true, all smash games have been enjoyable. However, I personally think that Melee pleased more competitive players than casual and the opposite with Brawl.

I agree. And this Smash will probably be the sequel Melee fans like us wanted all along. It will probably not be as fast or deep as Melee, but I am confident it will be fast, complex and deep enough to please most people that aren't looking for a Melee with more characters and online capabilities

 

[Demna]

I agree. And this Smash will probably be the sequel Melee fans like us wanted all along. It will probably not be as fast or deep as Melee, but I am confident it will be fast, complex and deep enough to please most people that aren't looking for a Melee with more characters and online capabilities

There is no Wavedash, L-cancel, and it has the Brawl air-dodge. It looks fast but how can you tell it's a sequel to Melee? Sakurai said that the game will be balanced between both Melee and Brawl.

 

[`dazrin]

we will see how it goes~

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Smash 4 is coming, and none of us on this site are arguably the target audience.

Yes, you're right, that is extremely arguable. Not everyone on this site hang out at the Melee part of it, as much as it blows your mind some people actually do prefer Brawl, like me. The most important lesson to learn on the internet: The haters will always yell louder than the supporters. When you're satisfied there's usually not much to say, you'll probably say "What a great game" once in your life and leave it at that. When you're not satisfied you're gonna voice your complains constantly, in hope of being heard, or simply to vent off frustration, it's natural for everybody to do so. The assumption that everyone on this forum prefers Melee is kind of brain-dead though.

SSB4 will be a new kind of Smash Bros, it won't be 64, it won't be Melee, and it won't be Brawl, it'll be its own kind. If you want Melee all over again go play Melee, if you want Brawl all over again go play Brawl instead, I'm just thankful that Sakurai actually wants to create something new. Even then it's an improvement over Brawl for the people who want fast-paced gameplay, be at least happy about that. It can be a fast and competitive game without having L-cancelling and wave-dashing I believe, if it's done right it can please both parts to at least some degree. Of course there'll never be any satisfying the people who believe there'll never be a Smash Bros game as good as Melee, and that's their own fault for thinking that way.

 

[Demna]

Yes, you're right, that is extremely arguable. Not everyone on this site hang out at the Melee part of it, as much as it blows your mind some people actually do prefer Brawl, like me. The most important lesson to learn on the internet: The haters will always yell louder than the supporters. When you're satisfied there's usually not much to say, you'll probably say "What a great game" once in your life and leave it at that. When you're not satisfied you're gonna voice your complains constantly, in hope of being heard, or simply to vent off frustration, it's natural for everybody to do so. The assumption that everyone on this forum prefers Melee is kind of brain-dead though.

SSB4 will be a new kind of Smash Bros, it won't be 64, it won't be Melee, and it won't be Brawl, it'll be its own kind. If you want Melee all over again go play Melee, if you want Brawl all over again go play Brawl instead, I'm just thankful that Sakurai actually wants to create something new. Even then it's an improvement over Brawl for the people who want fast-paced gameplay, be at least happy about that. It can be a fast and competitive game without having L-cancelling and wave-dashing I believe, if it's done right it can please both parts to at least some degree. Of course there'll never be any satisfying the people who believe there'll never be a Smash Bros game as good as Melee, and that's their own fault for thinking that way.

I completely concur, and I think it's quite a sophisticated idea to balance the game between Melee and Brawl. Therefore, the game can target much more audience.

 

[Chiroz]

There is no Wavedash, L-cancel, and it has the Brawl air-dodge. It looks fast but how can you tell it's a sequel to Melee? Sakurai said that the game will be balanced between both Melee and Brawl.

Which is why I said it won't appeal to people who just want Melee with online capabilities.

One must remember this is literally the first game that Sakurai takes hardcore players into consideration. Contrary to popular belief Melee was not geared towards competitive players, it was geared towards "experienced" players.

Smash 64 was made to be an accessible fighter game, with no fake barriers and such. Sakurai never envisioned there being a competitive scene to Smash. If anything he made 64 in order to give a more casual party style gameplay to fighting games.

Melee was made to expand on this idea and give new play tools for the experienced players but Melee also took away from some of the technical aspects of the game (L-canceling got nerfed, Hitstun got nerfed, grab game got nerfed) Melee introduced many new mechanics, but this was mostly because 64 had so much possibility to expand.

Brawl was then purposely geared towards Casuals. Not only that but Sakurai went ahead and actually explained that he purposely tried to hinder the competitive side of Smash in Brawl. He wanted to lower the gap between a skilled player and a new player and allow the new player yo have a fighting chance vs the skilled player. He removed many of the things that competitive smashers enjoyed, made the game maneuverability overall much easier but slower, made recoveries completely ridiculous and even went ahead and introduced things just for the sake of making a skilled player mess up in order to give a bigger chance to people who don't even know enough to mess up anything (tripping). This was all expressed by Sakurai himself.

We have 2 games purposely geared toward casuals and one which was designed for experienced players, yet most people agree all Smash games have huge depth and even in 64 there were many mechanics purposely introduced to raise the technical level. (And this game was designed to be a casual experience to a more hardcore genre.)

Smash 4 is the first game where Sakurai is actually taking the competitive side into consideration in order to appeal to us. He actually went ahead and expressed wishes to find a middle ground, sort of throw us a bone and probably help expand competitive play instead of purposely hindering us like in Brawl.

The game was running on a modified Brawl engine and it already looked a bit faster.

Although I cannot tell what will or will not happen, I expect there to be L-Cancel or if not to be very little lag from most moves (remember that after all L-Cancel was pueposely placed on 64, kept but nerfed on Melee and removed in Brawl because he wanted to hinder competitive play). I expect momentum to come back, meaning no more huge floatiness when jumping, characters would return momentum into a jump. I also expect a higher hit stun than Brawl (by that I mean the moment you can cancel hitstun).

Just these 3 things together will lead into Melee-like gameplay. Wavedash will probably not make a come back, Melee air dodge will probably not make a comeback either. This game won't be Melee 2.0, but it won't be Brawl 2.0 either. Just take into account that Sakurai is now trying to appeal to us, for the first time ever. That is what makes me believe it will be liked by Melee players.

 

[smashbrolink]

Your assumption is false. Sakurai is finding a balance between the two. This is the correct way to go about in game design. You are just wanted the game to be built specifically for you. Which is not only selfish, but it won't happen. I would "like" the game to be competitively, but I am aware enough that this will never happen.

You are conflicted on how games are meant to be played, and there is actually no answer to that.

Games are going to be segregated. Have you ever played a game "EXACTLY" as someone else? You're either a psychic or a liar.

People can make the most non-competitive games competitive. For example, Super Mario Bros. 64...people run speed runs ALL the time for that...even today. That is the competitive side of that game. The casual is the every-day player that just wants to play the game for fun. You can not force a game to be centered towards a certain people. People will play the game they want to, regardless of how it was created.

It's like reading a book (please tell me you read a book before). You get a different interpretation of the story by each person that reads it.

You're assuming I don't know Sakurai's intent here, which is false, as is your insistence that I want the game built specifically for me.
The amount of segregation can be reduces SIGNIFICANTLY by keeping the majority of AT's out, though.
The speed is going up and the floatiness is going down, and tripping is gone entirely as well as, from appearances, the hit-stun going up as well, and it was the differences of those things that made Brawl far less popular than Melee. It could have survived far better had those things stayed somewhat like they were in Melee, even sans AT's.
The fact that Smash 4 IS getting these improvements should be enough to satisfy competitive needs without segregating them too distantly from the casual base.
Leaving Advanced Techs in would do little more than cause problems between them and anyone who is not using them whenever an AT user would hop into a causal public online match.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Oh, I think I may have misinterpreted what you were saying then.

I think we both took the word segregation in different meanings. I took segregation in regards to the total player base. Playing a game regardless of how it was initially created, thus having both a competitive and casual scene. There will always be that for every game.

You took segregation in means of initial game design compared to Brawl and Melee. Melee being competitively catered while Brawl is casually catered. Then finding a balance of the two.

Also, I'm not too sure what AT's mean. Only thing I can think of are Assist Trophy's and I'm not sure if that fits.

 

[smashbrolink]

Oh, I think I may have misinterpreted what you were saying then.

I think we both took the word segregation in different meanings. I took segregation in regards to the total player base. Playing a game regardless of how it was initially created, thus having both a competitive and casual scene. There will always be that for every game.

You took segregation in means of initial game design compared to Brawl and Melee. Melee being competitively catered while Brawl is casually catered. Then finding a balance of the two.

Also, I'm not too sure what AT's mean. Only thing I can think of are Assist Trophy's and I'm not sure if that fits.

AT's stand for both Assist Trophies and Advanced Techniques [Wave Dashing, etc]

 

[Mr.Showtime]

Ah gotcha. Fair enough. =)

 

[Demna]

Which is why I said it won't appeal to people who just want Melee with online capabilities.

One must remember this is literally the first game that Sakurai takes hardcore players into consideration. Contrary to popular belief Melee was not geared towards competitive players, it was geared towards "experienced" players.

Smash 64 was made to be an accessible fighter game, with no fake barriers and such. Sakurai never envisioned there being a competitive scene to Smash. If anything he made 64 in order to give a more casual party style gameplay to fighting games.

Melee was made to expand on this idea and give new play tools for the experienced players but Melee also took away from some of the technical aspects of the game (L-canceling got nerfed, Hitstun got nerfed, grab game got nerfed) Melee introduced many new mechanics, but this was mostly because 64 had so much possibility to expand.

Brawl was then purposely geared towards Casuals. Not only that but Sakurai went ahead and actually explained that he purposely tried to hinder the competitive side of Smash in Brawl. He wanted to lower the gap between a skilled player and a new player and allow the new player yo have a fighting chance vs the skilled player. He removed many of the things that competitive smashers enjoyed, made the game maneuverability overall much easier but slower, made recoveries completely ridiculous and even went ahead and introduced things just for the sake of making a skilled player mess up in order to give a bigger chance to people who don't even know enough to mess up anything (tripping). This was all expressed by Sakurai himself.

We have 2 games purposely geared toward casuals and one which was designed for experienced players, yet most people agree all Smash games have huge depth and even in 64 there were many mechanics purposely introduced to raise the technical level. (And this game was designed to be a casual experience to a more hardcore genre.)

Smash 4 is the first game where Sakurai is actually taking the competitive side into consideration in order to appeal to us. He actually went ahead and expressed wishes to find a middle ground, sort of throw us a bone and probably help expand competitive play instead of purposely hindering us like in Brawl.

The game was running on a modified Brawl engine and it already looked a bit faster.

Although I cannot tell what will or will not happen, I expect there to be L-Cancel or if not to be very little lag from most moves (remember that after all L-Cancel was pueposely placed on 64, kept but nerfed on Melee and removed in Brawl because he wanted to hinder competitive play). I expect momentum to come back, meaning no more huge floatiness when jumping, characters would return momentum into a jump. I also expect a higher hit stun than Brawl (by that I mean the moment you can cancel hitstun).

Just these 3 things together will lead into Melee-like gameplay. Wavedash will probably not make a come back, Melee air dodge will probably not make a comeback either. This game won't be Melee 2.0, but it won't be Brawl 2.0 either. Just take into account that Sakurai is now trying to appeal to us, for the first time ever. That is what makes me believe it will be liked by Melee players.

Seems legit. In the demo version where Sakurai battled his translator (Megaman vs Mario), Sakurai accidentally performed a B-reversal with Megaman's Leaf shield. We can conclude from this that momentum shift is returning to the game. Smash 4 does look faster than Brawl and looks in balance between Melee and Brawl. Even the characters looked more balanced, Samus looks more agile now. Both Samus and Bowser's F-smash were highly buffer. Samus's F-smash is fast as hell and Bowser got a fast Drop-kick F-smash. This look promising and shows how Sakurai, along with Namco Bandai, is doing a great job in balancing the game where he//they screwed up badly in Brawl. Let's hope we'll receive more positive feedback on the game and hopefully it'll please both casual and competitive players .

 

[Spin3no]

The problem with melee is it is too fast. You can 3 stock a newb in about 1 min. Brawl is too slow, some newbs get bored. Smash is suppose to be a party game not a true fighting fighting game so the learning curve was never suppose to be high.

I never understood why some people want a tekken level of difficulty from Nintendo game of all things.

The new game speed looks perfect in between melee and brawl.

My point is that In order to fully enjoy a game your understanding of the game must be at a certain level or you will get destroyed. That Is what I didn't like about melee... I was the only one that understood it and wanted to play it. (Of the people I knew)

It looks like this new game has enough depth players at all levels can enjoy. Like brawl but a faster pace and no tripping so it can become competitive. Hope it does not become a metaknight Fest like brawl.