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Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

A10theHero

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I just randomly clicked on this thread to see what it was about and a topic I know stuff about was just brought up. Convenience! :b:

Just clearing up the stuff surrounding UCT and QACing:
On the regular version of UCT, Pikachu can only QAC on the slants of the clockface in the middle of the stage.
On the omega version, Pikachu can QAC anywhere on the stage as long as the QA ends with him facing to the left. It will not cancel if he ends up facing to the right.
The biggest benefit Pikachu gains from this is that his footstool combos at higher percents are much easier to perform.

In the grand scheme of things, the overall benefits he gains from this stage probably won't have a significant impact on tournaments (especially since not many people play Pikachu to begin with). Banning FD usually means omega stages are banned, and if you don't ban it and they ask to go to Omega UCT instead of FD, just say no. Even if people don't know about this, after they "lose" to this once, I doubt they'd let it happen again. Something like this probably wouldn't be easy to forget. So I'm not sure if banning this one specific omega stage because of this one specific character really makes a difference then.
 

Pazx

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I just randomly clicked on this thread to see what it was about and a topic I know stuff about was just brought up. Convenience! :b:

Just clearing up the stuff surrounding UCT and QACing:
On the regular version of UCT, Pikachu can only QAC on the slants of the clockface in the middle of the stage.
On the omega version, Pikachu can QAC anywhere on the stage as long as the QA ends with him facing to the left. It will not cancel if he ends up facing to the right.
The biggest benefit Pikachu gains from this is that his footstool combos at higher percents are much easier to perform.

In the grand scheme of things, the overall benefits he gains from this stage probably won't have a significant impact on tournaments (especially since not many people play Pikachu to begin with). Banning FD usually means omega stages are banned, and if you don't ban it and they ask to go to Omega UCT instead of FD, just say no. Even if people don't know about this, after they "lose" to this once, I doubt they'd let it happen again. Something like this probably wouldn't be easy to forget. So I'm not sure if banning this one specific omega stage because of this one specific character really makes a difference then.
Helpful information (I just tested it myself, can confirm) but a few people here are missing the point.

What I perceive to be most rulesets (eg. not EVO/supermajors, because licensing) allow players to counterpick any Omega stage, provided they could also pick FD in the same situation (not banned/DSR'd). Under this very common ruling, Pikachu players would be free to counterpick to Omega UCT. You can't just "say no" to certain Omega stages if the ruleset specifically allows players to choose them.

There are three options.

1. Ban Omega UCT, allow players to CP any other Omega. Players would still be able to play on this stage via gentleman's agreement. This is IMO the best option, but it could be seen as setting a precedent for things we don't want to happen, eg. banning Omega's for "janky ledges" or grass etc.
2. Ban ALL Omegas, FD only. I do not like this option.
3. Allow players to CP any Omega, including UCT. This is acceptable, but people will be mad salty if they lose to Pikachu jank on this stage, especially if they weren't aware of it.
 

Yikarur

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The word "jank" should be banned. It quickly grow to an expression and excuse for anything. Especially in this thread we should work with objective arguments and try to avoid slang-type expressions as much as possible.
Every Omega should be legal and it's pointless to make a exceptions because one character can do 1 specific thing there, because a lot of omegas influence, restrict or benefit certain characters in some ways.
Even the japanese, who are very conservative about stages, play on it, because objectively speaking, if all omegas are allowed it would be bias to ban just this one.
 

ArikadoSD

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How is that? I assume it has something do with knockback angle changing based on the ground you are on (basically angle of launch is relative to the ground you are standing on)?
The centre of the stage is slightly "deeper" than the other parts. This is for original UCT anyway, idk if omega is the same but im assuming it is.
 
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A10theHero

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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but after stage striking, if FD/Omegas is chosen, wouldn't it be FD by default and the other person would have to request to go to an Omega? Or is the last person to strike able to choose the Omega? The former is how tournaments I've participated in handled it. Are most tournaments run with the latter ruling?
 

Yikarur

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it's always either FD or one Omega of choice (by the TO), but never "choose an omega".
 
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Pazx

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I believe it's sloping downwards very slightly to the left, which is odd.

No Omega UTC is of course like every other omega.
Have you even bothered reading the last few posts? Omega UCT is not like every other Omega.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but after stage striking, if FD/Omegas is chosen, wouldn't it be FD by default and the other person would have to request to go to an Omega? Or is the last person to strike able to choose the Omega? The former is how tournaments I've participated in handled it. Are most tournaments run with the latter ruling?
This is how it works for game 1 (FD only, or a specific Omega chosen by the TO) as letting 1 player choose the Omega for game 1 would undermine the striking process by giving them an advantage, but on subsequent games players are usually free to CP any Omega they would like.

Edit: Pikachu being able to QAC is considerably more influential on a match than different walls or having grass on the stage and that's why I think this stage should be banned. If there was 1 Omega stage with Battlefield-sized blastzones I'd suggest that one be banned as well, minor differences like friction and the underside of the stage are acceptable but something like this can't really be considered minor at all.
 
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Nul

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In the local scene here, WHZ Omega was banned due to the prolific Villager turnout during Customs format. It is still banned because after ban we had a couple of colorblind people (even outside Smash scene) say they couldn't see the sapling. Even after a few minutes of inspecting. We have a colorblind rule, and WHZ falls squarely on this, along with team colors.

For myself, and probably Vegas too, we'd have to see a surge in our 4 Pikachus picking this stage and winning. When UCT was legal for all of 3 weeks with us, there was no surge, in fact they did worse by roughly a placement tier. Although by now you'd be much more used to the stage, so experience is certainly a factor.

My 2 cents is that my local evidence shows no advantage on Pika @ UCT-Ω, and so far we will not ban it. At majors/internationals this won't be a problem like Pazx Pazx said for licensing [of music] over stream and recordings.
 

Yikarur

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k go on and ignore what I said. Taking things out of context is a great and productive thing to discuss stuff.

E: This is ruleset discussion btw, Stage Legality discussion belongs in the other thread.
 
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Nul

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E: This is ruleset discussion btw, Stage Legality discussion belongs in the other thread.
Unsure if towards myself, but I'll clarify preemptively.

Unless there's some "unnatural" reason that a stage is bad for some people (e.g. color blind problems, glitch in a legal stage) I see no real reason to ban it at a local level. If it is adjusting the meta that harshly, then it deserves some attention, and at that point you should just FD with/out Palu-Ω. Majors+ should just have simplified rules to lessen confusion / standardize game-play, they don't have time to deal with confused players.

Having a "pick any Ω except X, Y, and Z" gets to be too much for players, and the only people that will remember them are the ones who care to take advantage. 1/2 Ω stages is much easier to remember, and players won't whine about how their favorite Ω got singled out in the rules.

IMO "pick any Ω except..." with 2 or more on the banned side is too much work for the players. Also adding "except" into rules has shown to confuse everyone - I've seen gridiron referees recall rulings more often than another rule when the rule had "except" in it.
 

Lomogoto

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Im really not a fan of the majority of omegas due to some hard to predict edge mechanics, and i know that is just some lack of knowledge on my part, but i always thought it would be best to only allow omegas of stages that are leagal anyways. Also maybe not being able to pick the omega of the stage that is banned?

I just hate having to ban FD only because a few random omegas make recovery from under the stage as lucario (normally not ever an issue) all but impossible. Also the possibility to have some different sliding mechanics on grass portions of the stage strikes me as odd.

The legal stages also have just about all of the edges anyone may want. You want one that makes sharking easier? Lylat. Want walls? Duck hunt. Want FD without the colors? Battlefield.

Also the 1.1.5 patch may have fixed pikachu on umbra so thats good.
 

Nul

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L Lomogoto You want this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-discussion-thread-round-ii.424554/

You're explaining why a stage would be legal by being played mechanically, the most we should cover stage discussion here is how it affects players outside game-meta, stuff before a game is played or accessibility. This is a super-gray area, but fits here better. This type of discussion would be rare too.

I mean, we're here for discussion to make the rules concise, memorable, and fair. The stage legality thread I posted above is a sub-set in that we off-load most stage discussion there. That thread has an easier job in that the stage list is to be fair, because it will already by concise and memorable, because by design the stage list takes up only a third of the rules list.

My noting of "pick any Ω except..." points out the fact that this list attacks a principle we're trying to establish, which is memorability. Besides, if we were to shave down the Ω list to exactly those of FD (closer vertical BZ, grass, walls, under-stage pillar, etc.), the inclusion or exclusion lists would not be concise for either. So, in the long run, we can't do either of these.
 

Megamang

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It was at the bottom of a medium length post kinda low key, but L Lomogoto just said that 1.1.5 may have fixed Umbra? I'm away from wii, but we should test this ASAP, it shouldn't be hard. But the fact he can (if he still can do this) means, barring some other strange interaction, that the stage is slanted. The way QAC works, and it only works in one direction on this stage, makes me think it might slightly be slanted? Maybe the stage is 'slanted' due to the shape on the bottom/something to do with that making it register as slanted to the QAC... Idk, but is anything else weird there? I'm trying to think of other things to test; are there other moves that cancel on slanted ground?
 

dav3yb

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it's always either FD or one Omega of choice (by the TO), but never "choose an omega".
I think @ the last one we ran the rule was players choice on what omega they wanted, and if there was an issue that was legitimate, it would be addressed by a TO if the players couldn't come to a concensus (we never had to step in to address anything btw).
 

Nul

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3 Stocks let's goooo.
To paraphrase / summarize my local PR's thoughts on 2 vs 3 stocks:

"3 stocks provides nothing extra except that SD's hurt less. On the other hand, 2 stocks requires a higher level of consistency, execution, and as an added bonus, moves the tournament along at a non-frustrating pace."

I'm also in agreement, personally.
 

Lomogoto

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Hey if people hate time-outs because they take so long and are "boring" (though i think they can be very exciting to watch) why dont we make the time limit less? 5 minutes? Maybe 4? We could even do 3 stock 5-6 minutes so time-outs dont take very long. At least a match that would time out anyways doesnt take any longer than it does with 2 stock. Time-outs can be boring but as the clock runs down it gets more and more intense, so why did we settle on 6 minutes when the time-out could easily be not so long? I think it may be time to reconsider that limit.
 

Nul

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lol that's so made-up.
If this was to me, calm down (so quick to attack without backing), I've got Z, Hino, and Xanntha on record for it, and I'm almost positive Zankoku (granted not PR10, but respected TO and admin here) and SK92 have agreed with this opinion during the discussion.


Hey if people hate time-outs because they take so long and are "boring" (though i think they can be very exciting to watch) why dont we make the time limit less? 5 minutes? Maybe 4? We could even do 3 stock 5-6 minutes so time-outs dont take very long. ... I think it may be time to reconsider that limit.
If it helps, Japan (not sure if they do now, but they've been doing this at least since 2008) did 10 minute matches, and it was incredibly rare when it would go to time.

I played in some 3 stock / 5 minute funsies tournament at a college student union, nearly every match went to time. People who could play aggressively, myself included, considered timing out after a stock or 2.
 
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Yikarur

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I'm not saying you made this up. I'm just saying the reasoning sounds so forced with no real back-up.

I could reverse that statement
"2 stocks provide nothing but less consistency. On the other hand, 3 stocks make results consistent while having an enjoyable average set length. As a bonus beginners get more stocks to play and are not kicked out of a tournament after 10 Minutes."

You can always make-up some random reasoning. Fact is we always played with 3 Stocks in Brawl and Smash 4 is a much faster paced game and lowering the stock number doesn't make sense. If for glory didn't exist no one would've even thought about playing 2 Stocks. The reaction when 2 Stocks for for glory were revealed were like "ugh 2 stocks" but everyone heavily grinded for glory in the first 3DS month because real tournaments were not possible and people got used to it.

The "time bonus" is an excuse for bad tournament organizing. We have several big tournaments in europe held with 3 Stocks and we never had schedule issues so far, except in the case of bad TOing. We even do round robin pools and finish 16 6-7 Man pools in less than 2 hours.

Additionally it's statistically proven that people want 3 Stocks. I still don't get why american tournaments don't switch for good.
 

Nul

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I'm not saying you made this up. I'm just saying the reasoning sounds so forced with no real back-up.

I could reverse that statement
"2 stocks provide nothing but less consistency. On the other hand, 3 stocks make results consistent while having an enjoyable average set length. As a bonus beginners get more stocks to play and are not kicked out of a tournament after 10 Minutes."

You can always make-up some random reasoning. Fact is we always played with 3 Stocks in Brawl and Smash 4 is a much faster paced game and lowering the stock number doesn't make sense. If for glory didn't exist no one would've even thought about playing 2 Stocks. The reaction when 2 Stocks for for glory were revealed were like "ugh 2 stocks" but everyone heavily grinded for glory in the first 3DS month because real tournaments were not possible and people got used to it.

The "time bonus" is an excuse for bad tournament organizing. We have several big tournaments in europe held with 3 Stocks and we never had schedule issues so far, except in the case of bad TOing. We even do round robin pools and finish 16 6-7 Man pools in less than 2 hours.

Additionally it's statistically proven that people want 3 Stocks. I still don't get why american tournaments don't switch for good.
I was summarizing, without wanting to dig up the original FB comment thread. There were caveats, like a couple stated in your reversed statement, but at least in Las Vegas players that come to play, we're pro-2-stocks. We do have a mild elitism in that "if you don't show, you don't get a vote" mentality, because we have a few vocal people who expressed that they will not show, even if they have confirmation that no PR20 or other notables will be there. They won't even go to EVO for novelty like most of us, which is down the street. We feel that everyone should be influenced by their own influence, so you go to the tournaments you make rules for.

While we did play Brawl with 3, it was because we (IIRC) "stepped down" from Melee who at the time also do so from 64. It seemed like natural progression with game speed, and no one wanted to experiment with 2 stock Brawl. After Smash 4, our Brawl guys tried out 2 stocks on Brawl, and we liked that better. We didn't play Sonic, but theorized that we wouldn't have had that time-out issue if Brawl was 2 stock. But that was a year ago, and Brawl is pretty dead here.

After having the force-fed 2 stock campaign of For Glory, I'm even fine with trying the speed of "Smash 5" (if made) anywhere from 1-10 stock, but I'm certain it will be 2-4. Smash 4, to me, is right in the middle of 2 and 3 stocks, which feels hard to make standing arguments. The only thing I really want to argue to meta rules, is player consistency, in # of stocks. Other things are just extra. 2 stocks demands consistency out of players, and 3 allows accessibility of consistency. It is a difficult scale to balance.

Making time work for a tournament and pacing are two different things, and I see I didn't clarify. What I meant beforehand was that, for one reason or another, we have a lot of new people that get very anxious to play another game right away, even if they just lost. 2 stocks helps us with that. I've noticed in California, Utah, and Arizona (neighboring states), they don't see this as often. I'm pretty confident in saying that Las Vegas local has a pacing problem to new players, and sometimes 2 stocks isn't fast enough. We're not going to do 1 stock or Bo1, so we aren't solving that.

I did find that article on stocks by SmashEurope (you should link me sometime ;) ), and I'm wondering if the poll being in English is the only true bias. It is also difficult because I consider 4000 people, mixed with other Smash games, too small a sample size. I've wanted a good statistics challenge, and maybe I'll work on this.

Why I lean 2 stock now is that I see it as a higher challenge by a small margin. This is the competitive side of me taking over. I personally want 3 still out of nostalgia from Brawl, mostly because I actually did like taking 7 minute control games.

As it is, we will be seeing more 2 stock games in America due to EVO's / CEO's rules, which most want to practice for. For EVO, I can say without a doubt that we had a guy who didn't care, and 2 pro-2-stock guys deliberate on the rules. This is also true for the "murdering" or Miis, sidenote.

I have an experiment for the community in fighting games in general (focusing Smash) that I'm still refining before release, and while I'm rolling it out, I'll poll stocks too. I expect a fair representation, albeit with an American bias, as traveling out of country is difficult. I'll be doing the polling in person, so that will take time, and I'm not getting an answer right away.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Have we considered banning duck hunt yet?

The potential for excessive camping and stalling is all too great there imo.
 

ぱみゅ

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I'd say camping there is heavily matchup dependent.
Like 70% of the cast don't really mind the stage.
:196:
 

dav3yb

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As far as omega rule is concerned, would just saying something like "If a player counter-picks FD, they may pick any omega stage from the current legal set of stages."

Obviously if a stage like UCT is legal, that doesn't really help, but it seems more often that it's less than popular for a stage choice in the list these days.

Also would an fd/omega rule like this lead to any other awkward stages? the only legal one with walls i could think of would be duck hunt. (off the top of my head)
 

Lomogoto

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As far as omega rule is concerned, would just saying something like "If a player counter-picks FD, they may pick any omega stage from the current legal set of stages."

Obviously if a stage like UCT is legal, that doesn't really help, but it seems more often that it's less than popular for a stage choice in the list these days.

Also would an fd/omega rule like this lead to any other awkward stages? the only legal one with walls i could think of would be duck hunt. (off the top of my head)
Have always liked this idea a lot! Especially now that they fixed UCT so its not an outlier. This still offeres diversity and options for FD picls while getting rid of a lot of unusual and awkward edges.

And my two cents abouy duckhunt: i hold the unpopular position that good camping is hard to do and fun to watch, its normally easier to kill someone than go many minutes purely running away without giving up your lead. I think its not that the stage leads to camping, its that the player likes camping, and knows duckhunt has more space. They would go to the next biggest stage and camp just the same if it were illegal, and it would probably end the same. If a certain player loses to camping, they will be camped by smart players. Duckhunt isnt polarizing enough to make anone who wouldnt lose to camping suddenly lose. People in my oppinion need to start accepting camping as a valid, difficult, and interesting strategy, not some pleage of "projectile spam" and "playing lame."

If people dont like how long time-outs take, make the timer shorter? Seems like the most direct solution that people ignore due to not wanting more timeouts (even though they would be less "boring" because they dont take as long)
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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Ever since UCT and Kalos were fixed there really aren't any "unusual and awkward edges" I can think about on omegas. The only ones that come to mind are Pac-Land (it's got a wall but you can't wall jump) and Pyrosphere (some kinda messed up edge but I don't know what). Most omegas are perfectly fine or the undersides are no weirder than FD to begin with.
 

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Making the timer shorter makes timeouts more accessible (there's a reason why For Glory has a lot more timeouts than regular tournament play).

I too enjoy long matches, I am usually spending my time amazed at how people sometimes are able to avoid hits either by polished movement or raw overwhelming control, but a lot of people don't seem to share that opinion.


About Omegas... I am not sure. I guess it could help majors to get a bit more diversity, but at the HUGE MAJORITY of locals and regionals it shouldn't be limited anyway.
:1196:
 

Yikarur

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Why is full list stage striking not the standard yet?
The most common difference in rulesete at the moment is the very common question "Dreamland or Lylat?"
Most european tournaments use Lylat but a lot use Dreamland. Most majors have used dreamland so far (Beast 6 had lylat).
So there is an easy solution for this problem:
Why not both?
I think Striking from all 7 stages is objectively and without a doubt the best solution.
I think it should be the standard, because the Starter/CP distintion doesn't make any sense with our current stage list.
 

Megamang

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First off, I agree totally.


The argument against it is mostly a TO convenience argument. It takes time. It also generates confusion with newer players keeping track of making a good strike (ive seen people, for example, remember to strike dreamland vs a Ding Dong DK... then forget about TaC, end up there knowing its a problem.. then its 'I would have striken that, cmon' vs 'you can't change your strikes afterwards'!

Of course, a single printed sheet with pictures of the stages and some pennies/pieces of plastic for strikes would alleviate this. But then they are a choking hazard for our slower players! (I support FLSS, this is just where I've seen it go wrong. As it is, the current system causes just as much confusion but people are used to it)
 

Pazx

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Full list stage striking is way easier to understand than the starter vs counterpick distinction so the argument that it's confusing for "newer players" doesn't really hold water, I've witnessed this with newbies firsthand.

Print out the stagelist, strike using random stage select, etc, TOs need to make it easier for the players.
 

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I've wrote the stagelist in clipboards tied to the Stations so everyone can see them and use them as guides to striking. I want to also give pencils to help marking them but that sounds like it can get out of hand easily.
But anyway, for someone who has tried it and has it as standard in my local community, it has worked nicely enough.
:196:
 

dav3yb

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i made a sheet with the stages pictures on it and laminated them. A dry erase marker worked great for striking.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Vaguely related to the current stage discussion, my local scene still uses Dream Land as a starter over Lylat Cruise. (LC and Duck Hunt are counterpicks.) I believe the Facebook page for the next event specifies KTAR whatever as the base ruleset.

Other than the obvious situation where Dream Land and Battlefield are really similar stages, blast zones, platform heights, and wind aside, are there any other arguments that can be used to push for Lylat over Dream Land as a starter? (I agree FLSS is preferable, but baby steps. Louisiana seems to be a very conservative region...)
 

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For fans of full list stage striking, Get on my Level 2016 in Toronto will be the first major since EVO (to my knowledge) to run this format. It's just the standard 7 stages (with 2-3-1 striking), so it's nothing super radical, but maybe it could give more exposure and build up more momentum for FLSS.
 
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