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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    585

Aligo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2021
Messages
535
People only want to jump to an immediate ban because they feel like Steve already breaks the rules of competition and isn't fun to fight against. If Roy were to have this tech, he'd be insanely broken too, but no one would be calling for a ban without more data.
To be fair Steve is the perfect storm of toxic and anti competitive traits. Visually bland in appearance and animation combined with stall based gameplay make for a poor viewing experience.

A lack of move clarity, an extreme advantage state only matched by kazuya, combined with poorly balanced moves and a passive neutral make playing against Steve a chore.

And now with the addition of tech only slightly below Infinite dimensional cape in power that seals the deal.

While some may argue a lack of overwhelming representation in both local and top level play is cause for wait and see, this argument is disingenuous as the traits that make Steve gameplay isn't even fun for the user.

It is better to lose one character than an entire community, not to mention a ban may even promote a new balance patch so that the Minecraft man can return in proper fashion.

I still think that making an official community post like the elden ring community did could help greatly in acquiring a balance patch.

Edit:

Just because Steve gets banned now doesn't mean he can't get unbanned later. The fighterZ community did this with lab coat 21 then unbanned her when she was nerfed.
 
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williamsga555

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 8, 2015
Messages
247
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Japan
Thanks for the solid replies. One more thought point, however:

Every example given above as to why banning the tech would be logistically infeasible has been centered around the inconsistency of multihits specifically, but that's not really what I'm trying to bring up. Multihits failing to work is a well-known issue as it is, so people are right in saying that analyzing matches to find out if these failings are from the tech or not would be a logistical nightmare.

My point is that I don't think it would need to apply to them. Multihits having another shortcoming just is what it is.

Rather, if the tech were to be banned, spotting it for anything that isn't a multihit should be very obvious, because singlehit moves having their hitstun ignored is not difficult at all to notice and is almost certainly not something that will occur by accident.

But how is that fair for characters reliant on multihits?
-It isn't, but them's the breaks. How is it fair for characters with a reflector to have a better answer against Steve dair than others? Same reasoning, some character interactions involve tools that others don't have, one way or the other.

So Steve would be allowed to use them on multihits, but not on single hits? What's this pick-and-choose nonsense?
-Yes, he would, but think about what that actually implies: reasonably, Steve would be gambling majorly to try and do this against multihits specifically -if he guesses right, he gets out of disadvantage. If he guesses wrong and the opponent uses a singlehit move, he's broken the ban and would be subject to much harsher penalties (stock forfeiture, game forfeiture, whatever it is that would be decided on beforehand).

So you're proposing a ban on the tech then?
-No, actually, I'm fully in the camp of doing anything being way too premature. NairWizard has already articulated my similar thoughts to it much better than I could. He also had the excellent example of Shulk already having a version of this tech (and also why it's not a 100% equal comparison, too).

I'm saying, hypothetically speaking, it would be preferable to ban only the tech instead of the whole character if it comes to that, and I haven't been convinced that banning the tech would be particularly difficult outside of multihits (which again, are already facing these kinds of problems through normal gameplay, so I don't see this as a real obstacle).
 

Idon

Smash Legend
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The Steve/Shulk comparison is the most dishonest comparison I've seen this side of saying "Yoshi double jump is the same thing."

Shulk's shield art relies on an effect that has a noticeable cooldown, generally doesn't grant punishes as powerful as Steve's, can be baited out wasting it, and hits Shulk with several debuffs that restrict him.
Comparatively speaking, PMLG can be done without any indicators, on any multi-hit, on any low-percent combo, without being tied to any resource, initiated off of any single action that puts him in any amount of endlag, and when done incorrectly still leaves him in a good position by getting the block placement or attack option happening.

Like the entire concept of whiff punishing, hitting someone when they miss a move, is turned entirely on its head. There is zero risk to doing this, it is purely a safety net that grants extreme reward and it affects every single character in this cast.

Make no mistake, the tech is absolutely broken. This is not a topic of argumentation, it is agreed with any person with any amount of skill in the game, even Steve players- especially Steve players.
The issue discussed has always been centered around the logistical issues of whether a tech specific ban is feasible, not whether PMLG is even remotely "okay".
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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May 14, 2021
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690
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It is neither high risk or highly situational. Weak nontumble hits is... basically everything at 0%, bar Smash attacks which sometimes don't even send into tumble either. Most characters already have tons of slightly untrue combos consisting of weak moves that happen at low %.

It isn't even high risk because if he does miss it he... gets hit, which is what he already would've been normally. Or he is still on block, suspended in the air with one of the most threatening anti juggle tools in the game.


Manual reminder that the profits or job description of others are not relevant nor should they take priority over and ruin the game for the actual players.
Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
 
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Dan Quixote

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
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Florida
All this talk of the reasons and justification for the ban is moot if the ban doesn't actually happen, and I just can't say I'm confident. I feel like I've seen this song and dance happen in the exact same way at least five times since the Brawl days, and every time has proven this community really doesn't want to ban any characters. The fact that some regions have bit the bullet really fast and put some bans in place is notable, though, so it's definitely a unique case.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
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Battle Royal Dome
All other frame 1 escape options have downsides. Pokemon Switch can easily be baited by waiting a second, which you will then get a punish (and the Pokemon are floaty to make that all the more likely). Things like Bats Within and Cyclone have high endlag. Shulk, as mentioned, gains debuffs depending on the Art, and has to manage each Art having a cooldown.

I fail to see any downsides whatsoever to PMLG. If failed, you just take the rest of the combo as you normally would have. Timed slightly improperly, you either reset neutral or are on a block... as a character who benefits heavily from such a type of disengagement. I'm sorry, but this is probably the unhealthiest character in the game to have access to this tech in terms of the insane amount of reward they can get off of it. If, for example, Ganondorf had it, I probably wouldn't call for a ban, because he'd likely just get a nair out of it. When it's Steve, who has probably the most consistent kill-setup combo routes in the game, who already has an amazing recovery that helps him live a long time, who has anvil and Minecart out of such situations, who on top of all that can place blocks and/or mine if they opt for/just get a neutral reset... I can't see how this doesn't push him over the edge from already a top tier with stupidly good stuff, to unhealthily broken.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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14,909
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Colorado
Rizen Rizen What do you think? I would like to hear your take on this.
Well, to be blunt I think Steve will probably be banned. I agree, if true, it looks overpowered and there's no comparing it to other characters techs like Shulk's. Having said that, I also think it's important not to put too much stock into twitter clips. It's very easy to exaggerate combos and techs in a montage. I'd be interested to see more testing by pro players. If Collision is banning him then it's probably genuine but at this point we could use more information.
 

williamsga555

Smash Journeyman
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The Steve/Shulk comparison is the most dishonest comparison I've seen this side of saying "Yoshi double jump is the same thing."

Shulk's shield art relies on an effect that has a noticeable cooldown, generally doesn't grant punishes as powerful as Steve's, can be baited out wasting it, and hits Shulk with several debuffs that restrict him.
Comparatively speaking, PMLG can be done without any indicators, on any multi-hit, on any low-percent combo, without being tied to any resource, initiated off of any single action that puts him in any amount of endlag, and when done incorrectly still leaves him in a good position by getting the block placement or attack option happening.
Yes, all of this is true. The Shulk comparison is fine as long as it qualifies that the two are certainly not equal techs -the Steve tech is absolutely better without question, and I don't think anyone is really disputing that. The only real point of the comparison is to matter-of-factly state that the idea of negating hitstun in Ultimate is not new, it just hasn't been seen to this level (nor has it been seen on a character as already-good as Steve is).

Make no mistake, the tech is absolutely broken. This is not a topic of argumentation, it is agreed with any person with any amount of skill in the game, even Steve players- especially Steve players.
The issue discussed has always been centered around the logistical issues of whether a tech specific ban is feasible, not whether PMLG is even remotely "okay".
Absolutely correct, but I'm not sure anyone has really tried to downplay how good this tech is. Like you said, basically everyone agrees that it's ridiculous. The discussion is about determining how ridiculous it actually is with Steve having it, and what to do about it going forward -whether that be nothing, banning the tech, banning the character, or some other unexplored route.

To be fair Steve is the perfect storm of toxic and anti competitive traits. Visually bland in appearance and animation combined with stall based gameplay make for a poor viewing experience.
As someone who enjoys watching people fight through defensive zoning and set play, Steve is one of my more preferred characters to watch, actually. I know that's not a popular take, but I wouldn't describe him as either toxic nor anti-competitive, myself.
 

WatwatBreton

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 27, 2021
Messages
33
at this point we could just admit we're looking for any excuse to bully zoomer steve labbers out of the game lol.
don't get me wrong this tech looks pretty powerful (but it has limitations!) and is on top of a pretty strong character already, but taking action before any proper tournament result just seems like a kneejerk reaction from people who already hated steve and were looking for an excuse to pull the plug (if they haven't tried already before for arbitrary reasons like "viewership" or "this is not smash bros").
trying to picture any other fighting game doing day 1 bans from a non game-breaking tech just makes me laugh. no discussion of counterplay or how this affects specific matchups, just "this BREAKS the GAME as our lord and savior sakurai intended". this community is way too ban-happy (remember hero?) and way too online. not that i can blame the influencers, if you're competing for money it's in your interest to get other strong characters banned.

looking forward to see how this tech turns out - maybe it's as broken as everyone thinks and does make the character unstoppable! but if you're banning the character right now please don't pretend you're doing it for the sake of the video game and rather that you just always hated minecraft steve.
 

TCT~Phantom

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The one saving grace is that the ban would be predominantly caused by what amounts to an unintended interaction. If they do any more maitenence on the game, there is a non zero chance they just patch it. It would not really be direct character balance, more so a bug fix. If we get a patch for say, Sora Amiibo compatibility, they could patch it then.

At the rate things are going, a Steve ban at least in NA seems extremely likely. Tristate is a notably conservative region and they have banned steve. California and Texas also are taking steps towards a steve ban. If things continue at the rate they are going, I think a Steve ban will probably be widespread across NA by July. Should Steve be banned? I think it is hard to say. Before this tech, I would have adamantly said no to any action. Right now though, this tech is going to let a top 5 character at worst warp the meta even more. Banning the tech is not enforceable, since it is way too subtle compared to say, IDC or the Freeze glitch. Is the tech enough to push Steve over the edge? Maybe? Invalidating a lot of multi hit combos would make the meta super centralized around Steve. Right now, Ultimate has a very diverse meta. A large chunk of the roster can feasibly make top 8 at a major or supermajor. If one of the most common characters just invalidates a huge chunk of that meta, that diversity will evaporate overnight. On paper, that is unfortunate but fine. Not every character can be viable at the end of the day. But do we want to have a meta where some combination of top tiers choke out 85% of the roster and homogenize bracket and streams? Personally, I think both for the competitors and the spectators action would be beneficial if it gets that bad. While top players at first suggested banning Steve as a joke, at this point many seem to support the idea in earnest.

I also think an elephant in the room for Steve bans is that Smash is going to be having a rough year anyway. The deaths of SWT and Panda Cup mean sponsors are less likely to want to invest in Smash. eSports as a whole is downsizing with the eSports bubble bursting. Beyond the Summit is gone. VGBC's future is uncertain. Smash is in a tough spot, and this tech came at the worst possible time. Steve was already a controversial character to many, and now he has a super dumb tech that would arguably centralize the meta around him even more. For a lot of TOs, there is a clear logic to banning him. Enforcing a tech ban is hard. Do you want your local to lose steam due to player burnout of the Steve era? Do you want your streams to lose tons of viewership when Steve appears? These concerns should not be in ban discussions, but I feel that in the back of many TOs heads, these pragmatic reasons for a Steve ban would weigh on them just as much as the implications of a Steve ban.

The other elephant in the room is the fates of Brawl and Smash 4. Late game Brawl and Smash 4 were miserable due to a lack of action. Meta Knight and ICs made competitive brawl a headache if you played any character that was not them. The combo of Bayonetta and Cloud choked the Smash 4 meta when it was in a pretty solid spot before Bayo dropped. Bayo bans and Meta Knight bans were both debated, but no action was taken. In both cases, the games suffered tremendously. Many of the TOs that will be debating a Steve ban were TOing during these eras. Do they want to risk this happening again when there are some warning signs on the wall already? I mentioned above how the nightmare scenario of two to four characters choking a meta, making it so no one wants to play anymore. But what if 33% of the playerbase now plays bayonetta? What if the best region in NA decides to keep Meta Knight unbanned because over half of their best players play Meta Knight? If TOs want to act on Steve, it will be soon. Ideally, we would wait for more data. But given the track record, I think the fear of that worst case scenario might cause some TOs to jump the gun.

I think, whether for the right reasons of not, Steve bans will be coming this year. If anything, the Collision ban is going to speed things up sooner. Having a large TO series ban Steve makes it a lot easier for other TOs to follow suit. I do not know if a Steve ban will happen worldwide, but I could see a decent amount of the globe ban him. It will be sad to see Steve go, considering how huge his reveal was for a lot of people. I loved watching younger players pick up a character they love. I just wish that he did not arguably break the game.

My preferred outcome is just Nintendo patches this out. Without this, I do not think Steve is the existential threat to the game that others do. But with it, I do think that the case to ban Steve is much stronger.
 
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Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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at this point we could just admit we're looking for any excuse to bully zoomer steve labbers out of the game lol.
don't get me wrong this tech looks pretty powerful (but it has limitations!) and is on top of a pretty strong character already, but taking action before any proper tournament result just seems like a kneejerk reaction from people who already hated steve and were looking for an excuse to pull the plug (if they haven't tried already before for arbitrary reasons like "viewership" or "this is not smash bros").
trying to picture any other fighting game doing day 1 bans from a non game-breaking tech just makes me laugh. no discussion of counterplay or how this affects specific matchups, just "this BREAKS the GAME as our lord and savior sakurai intended". this community is way too ban-happy (remember hero?) and way too online. not that i can blame the influencers, if you're competing for money it's in your interest to get other strong characters banned.

looking forward to see how this tech turns out - maybe it's as broken as everyone thinks and does make the character unstoppable! but if you're banning the character right now please don't pretend you're doing it for the sake of the video game and rather that you just always hated minecraft steve.
It has the limitation that he can't use it literally all the time. That is the only limitation. Plus, when multiple top players are saying ban steve, including Tweek (arguably the second best player in the world) are saying that he needs to be banned, hell even Steve players saying he needs to be banned, its not bullying labbers. Why? Because the labbers are saying to ban him.

Besides, Hero and Steve are two different beasts. Hero was gonna be banned because he was effectively bringing items into a competitve match but was limited off of MP. Steve now breaks fundamental rules of the game to the point where there is 0 correct options to fighting him. Zone him? He gets resources. Fight him mid range? He can try to get in, and even if he is hit he can punish you. Close range? Arguably had one of the best close range states in the game before the tech.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,205
I personally SERIOUSLY doubt we are going to get another non-Amiibo patch to the game. When the SSB4 Bayo emergency nerf patch happened, it was only 3 months after the planned final patch to the game (1.1.5 -> 1.1.6). It is now over a year and a half since the last balance update to the game, which unlike SSB4's patch 1.1.5, is publicly announced as the final balance update to the game. Very likely that the people that consisted as the game's balance team, or the people responsible for the character/system changes to the game, has long since moved on to other projects. It would also be an update that would require all past replays to be unusable as well.

Either way, we have to accept that there will come a time where we cannot rely on the fated magic patch to fix all of our problems, which in today's modern gaming era we have admittedly become a bit spoiled by. It is unfortunate given that the Steve bans is primarily coming off of him being a very glitched character, but it is what it is.

Probably the glitchiest character to ever exist in Smash, which is a high accomplishment considering that Melee Ice Climbers exists.
 

st0pnsw0p

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
18
trying to picture any other fighting game
Isolating this particular segment because this is a sentiment that keeps popping up.

The fact that the FGC does things a certain way does not mean that the Smash community has to follow suit, and it would be nice if people stopped using appeals to tradition, or worse, concerns about big brother FGC looking down on us for following a different philosophy on bans, as arguments against a Steve ban.
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
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We can't know if Nintendo would patch it out due to a massive ban across multiple regions.

They should want Steve showcased. I don't know what their deal with Microsoft is but Microsoft certainly do not want him banned for natural reasons.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
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Naru translated some opinions from Japan's players on the tech and banning Steve. Japan is anti-ban still, and acola doesn't think the tech is that good.
 

superjm

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 23, 2022
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88
Naru translated some opinions from Japan's players on the tech and banning Steve. Japan is anti-ban still, and acola doesn't think the tech is that good.
Yep this is exactly what I thought might happen.

The split meta is gonna make things hairy, that's for sure.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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Naru translated some opinions from Japan's players on the tech and banning Steve. Japan is anti-ban still, and acola doesn't think the tech is that good.
I fail to see how a technique that punishes the opponent for hitting you "isn't that good".
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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I think "Ban Steve" being brought up again is mostly just a bandwagon after the broken tech showcase because there was people who wanted him banned for silly reasons all the way since July. I was mostly agreeing with the tech being dumb, but the Japanese community being so against the ban is changing my mind on it being banworthy.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
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Yeah, if the rest of the major regions are for it, Japan just needs to be prepared for what that may do for them, but everyone else doesn't have to accommodate them. Especially if what I read about them not really playing for money is true.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
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The tech is strong, but we aren't banning Steve because of this tech (if we're banning Steve), we're banning Steve because many are frustrated with fighters pack 2, top players feel like we missed the boat with Bayonetta and MK, and this tech is the excuse that seals the deal.

All of FP2 except Sora and Sephiroth are simply a tedious chore to play against -- there's no denying that regardless of how good you think the characters actually are -- and learning those brutally hard and specific matchups has taken a toll on community motivation and interest a year after initial release of the characters once the hype died down.

Matchups always take time to learn, but learning to fight against say Roy or Byleth is so much easier than learning to fight against Min Min and Steve, and even if you think top players should just "get good" and put in the time since it's their job, it's much harder to say this about players in your local scene. If given the choice between putting in time to learn 4 new hard and intricate matchups or just... playing a different game, many people will choose to play a different game, and you absolutely can't blame them for that.

The sentiment is understandable and if anyone can't at least empathize (even if you disagree), then that might just be a you problem.
 
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Linkmain-maybe

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Yeah, if the rest of the major regions are for it, Japan just needs to be prepared for what that may do for them, but everyone else doesn't have to accommodate them. Especially if what I read about them not really playing for money is true.
I believe they don't play for money due to laws in Japan IIRC.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Cosmos's thoughts
 

Arthur97

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I mean, why do they have to have the same rules between regions? Why is it even that much of a problem? I don't think that much American talent goes to Japan and so long as they don't play the banned fighter, they can still compete in America. If they choose not to, then that's their prerogative, but why would it be a game ender for them to not agree? I suppose you could get some high level players boycott, but is it worth letting this stay to appease Japan?
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I mean, why do they have to have the same rules between regions? Why is it even that much of a problem? I don't think that much American talent goes to Japan and so long as they don't play the banned fighter, they can still compete in America. If they choose not to, then that's their prerogative, but why would it be a game ender for them to not agree? I suppose you could get some high level players boycott, but is it worth letting this stay to appease Japan?
It would suck if the best player in Japan couldn't truly use his main in NA I'd think.
 

Aligo

Smash Ace
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Funny how many people in the comments think immediately "this is Brawl MK again" when it's definitely not.
I suppose brawl ice climbers is a more apt comparison. Glitches and poorly thought out mechanics result in incredible power and with pmlg making aggression unviable as an option, matches will become rather passive. At least meta Knight had to hit before engaging cheese.

Thinking about it though, I have no idea how they would fix the issue with the phantom state. Maybe go to the route of gutting uptilt/air to reduce the reward?
 
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Sucumbio

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I suppose brawl ice climbers is a more apt comparison. Glitches and poorly thought out mechanics result in incredible power and with pmlg making aggression unviable as an option, matches will become rather passive. At least meta Knight had to hit before engaging cheese.

Thinking about it though, I have no idea how they would fix the issue with the phantom state. Maybe go to the route of gutting uptilt/air to reduce the reward?
I'm thinking they'd have to isolate the create block mechanism somehow since so many advanced techs rely on glitching it. No idea how lol it's a mess.
 

Hippieslayer

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Is Acola really clearly better than the other top contending japanese players skill wise? I know his results are amazing but Steve is also really good.
 

Frihetsanka

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I think acola would have a good shot at top 10 in the world without Steve. I'm not sure if he's going to drop Steve though unless Steve ends up being banned in Japan. It's unfortunate that this bug exists and I'm not sure if there's any clean solution. A tech ban seems problematic, a Steve ban would have some unfortunate consequences for Steve players, and no ban whatsoever might be costly if the tech ends up being as strong as many top players seem to think.
 

NairWizard

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With all the stigma around the tech being overpowered, what's most likely is that Steve doesn't get banned and no top Steve (Onin, Acola) uses the tech, so it never matters in practice. It might matter in some early-bracket matches but will be brushed aside as not applicable at top level.
 

Arthur97

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With all the stigma around the tech being overpowered, what's most likely is that Steve doesn't get banned and no top Steve (Onin, Acola) uses the tech, so it never matters in practice. It might matter in some early-bracket matches but will be brushed aside as not applicable at top level.
The highest ones might not be the issue. The lower and mid ones may not show such self control and who wants to be hit by a cheap glitch if you already think your opponent is carried?
 
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