Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

Fatality posted his tier list

Only a few of the tiers are ordered, but here's my first full Tier List for Smash Ultimate! pic.twitter.com/97VVwQTiR2

— Griffin Miller (@FatalityFalcon) November 5, 2021

 

[Hippieslayer]

sakurai always underestimates how much it sucks to be a tall and/or big character, he gives the hugest easiest to hit characters other massive flaws always, be it low weight, trash recovery, or whatever

 

[The_Bookworm]

sakurai always underestimates how much it sucks to be a tall and/or big character, he gives the hugest easiest to hit characters other massive flaws always, be it low weight, trash recovery, or whatever

That is because being tall vs being short wasn't a huge dealbreaker when it came to character viability in the previous games (remember how much of SSB4's top tiers were tall characters?). Many of the big bodies in the past games where mediocre due to other aspects of their character design.

However, Ultimate's massive nerfs to grabs, shields, and overall disadvantage changed that quite a bit. Still, I think being short is kinda of an overhyped strength, especially since G&W and Pikachu are the only two short characters people really complain about. It is more of an annoyance than anything.

Still, characters can very much succeed despite being big. We have characters like Bowser and Sephiroth making good impacts in tournaments, while our public enemy #1 (I guess #2 since Aegis now exists) himself R.O.B. is also a big body.


On a slightly unrelated note, I think the above universal Ultimate changes is also the main reason why sloped stages are much more frowned upon in Ultimate than in the previous games. If we were in the Brawl/3DS mindset, we would still have Yoshi's Island (Brawl) legalized in a heartbeat, but in Ultimate, the slopes interfere with too much, plus we have more stages to dance around with.

 

[Kokiden]

Fatality posted his tier list

Only a few of the tiers are ordered, but here's my first full Tier List for Smash Ultimate! pic.twitter.com/97VVwQTiR2

— Griffin Miller (@FatalityFalcon) November 5, 2021

You know, I wish more tier lists were made with this in mind: how far they can get in tournaments.

Just saying top or high tier is nice and all, but outliers getting far in tournaments, or even outright winning them, does throw a wrench in things.

sakurai always underestimates how much it sucks to be a tall and/or big character, he gives the hugest easiest to hit characters other massive flaws always, be it low weight, trash recovery, or whatever

I'll say.

Can't get over Sephiroth's weight and don't think I ever will lol.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ProtoBanham is looking to drop Lucina. Now I don't think there's any Lucina's anymore other then Leon and Mr. E.

 

[The_Bookworm]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ProtoBanham is looking to drop Lucina. Now I don't think there's any Lucina's anymore other then Leon and Mr. E.

Just randomly putting that through Google translate, it seems that his motivation with Lucina has dropped and has risen with Min Min.
If he is thinking about dropping Lucina, then that is a rather odd decision, since his Lucina was integral in dealing with matchups his Min Min has trouble with, and vice versa.

 

[DiddyK0ng]

Exciting stuff seeing my man Armadillo and his

keep a lookout for him once offline majors become a thing again.

D DougEfresh

CHEERS !!!!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

II notice that many of the top players do not actullay solo-main her. With Pink Fresh being the exceptions .Protobaham co-mains her with and Lucina was vital to many of this offline wins. Dabuz uses or depending on the character, or Player MU. I mean this was once a character than Japan and other players said would be like completely broken. Being pretty dominant in Japan is likely the reason she got nerfs in 2 patches. It seemed those nerfs did add up and showed Min-Min does also have some exploitable weaknesses, such as poor air mobility and being very vulnerable offstage. As good as she is edgeguarding and gimping recoveries, she can be pretty vulnerable herself in that regard

So whats happened. I mean there is no doubt Min-Min is a very strong character with some pretty absurd keep-away and edgeguarding tools., Any character that has slow mobility and/or exploitable recovery is going to have a hard time no problem. But just a while ago at SWT America East finals LeoN won3-1 vs Dabuz's Min-Min set shows some ways to beat her despite seemingly being a pretty bad MU on paper.

Most of it was likely LeoN playing the Mu VERY WELL and seemed to basically read Dabuz. Bowser is big but he is also pretty fast so he does not have too hard a time getting close and pressure Min-Min. It seems parrying is also very effective vs Min-Min when she is forces to play CQC as we saw.

I wold say is kinda in a similar situation to in the meta. In if your character has no real way to deal with the best of their toolkit, you are likely going to have a terrible time, but if you use a character that has ways to deal with them and counter what they want to do, its going to be easier

 

[Tollhouse]

Fatality posted his tier list

Only a few of the tiers are ordered, but here's my first full Tier List for Smash Ultimate! pic.twitter.com/97VVwQTiR2

— Griffin Miller (@FatalityFalcon) November 5, 2021

I saw this on his twitter. It's a pretty solid list in my opinion. I don't think wolf and sonic belong in the same tier as Pyra, Pikachu, and Joker though!

 

[The_Bookworm]

SWT: NA East Finals has concluded the Round Robin pools. Here is how each set went:


Pool 1
Tweek 1-3 Myran
Tweek 3-2 Yez
Tweek 3-2 WaDi
Myran 3-2 WaDi
Myran 3-1 Yez
WaDi 3-0 Yez


Pool 2
Vendetta 3-1 Armadillo
Vendetta 3-1 KirbyKid
Vendetta 2-3 naitosharp (Sharp went random after game 2, and won with Chrom and Diddy)
naitosharp 3-2 Armadillo
naitosharp 2-3 KirbyKid
KirbyKid 3-0 Armadillo


Pool 3
Riddles 3-1 Rivers
Riddles 2-3 Syrup
Riddles 3-0 Kola
Kola 3-1 Syrup
Kola 3-0 Rivers
Rivers 3-1 Syrup


Pool 4
ESAM 3-0 Wrath
ESAM 3-1 LeoN
ESAM 1-3 Dabuz
Dabuz 1-3 LeoN
Dabuz 3-1 Wrath
LeoN 3-2 Wrath


Interesting turn of sets.

• Myran's victory over Tweek being the biggest upset (alongside Tweek sandbagging most of the rest of the pool with DK lol).
• Sharp beating Vendetta with random select (although his random select was kinda lucky, even getting his SSB4 co-main in Diddy).
• Sharp ended up losing to KirbyKid with a reverse 3-0 (Sharp really struggled to figure out the timing of throwing K. Rool when the crown was coming back, likely due to matchup unfamiliarity, and that costed him so many interactions throughout the course of the set).
• Riddles falling to Syrup (Kazuya's sluggish autoturnaround costed him game 4).
• Riddles then immediately afterwards 3-0'ed Kola with Terry (in only 10 minutes).

What tomorrow's bracket looks like:


Winner's
Myran vs KirbyKid
ESAM vs Kola (the Glitch rematch!)
Vendetta vs Tweek
Riddles vs Dabuz


Loser's
Armadillo vs WaDi
Rivers vs LeoN
Yez vs naitosharp
Wrath vs Syrup


Predictions:

• I think WaDi, LeoN, and naitosharp are the safe bets to win their first match in loser's. Wrath vs Syrup is more of a toss-up to me, but I think Wrath is more likely.
• Myran tends to be shaken up against matchups he is unfamiliar with, so KirbyKid might trip him up, but otherwise I think Myran has this one.
• ESAM vs Kola is a bit of a toss-up considering how close their set in Glitch went, but I think ESAM is the likely victor since he plays the long game well.
• I think Tweek has it vs Vendetta well, especially if he decides to actually stick to his guns.
• Riddles vs Dabuz is going to be very interesting. I think Riddles is definitely going Terry for this set (to avoid playing Kazuya vs Min Min), and his Terry has a good track record against Min Mins (if his set vs Pink Fresh has anything to say). This may result in a response to likely Rosalina, and then the set spices up from there.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Seibugeki 9

1. Shuton
2. KEN
3. Eim
4. Repo
5. MASA
5. Yamanaction
7. takera
7. Manzoku
9. Gorioka
9. Mikitsu
9. TRIGGER
9. Raito
13. Futari no Kiwami Ah~!
13. Noi
13. Jagaimo
13. Umeki
17. Konokururu
17. Ly
17. Huto
17. Aiyu
17. Kyou
17. Higusaki
17. Keroguchi
17. Taikei

Kameme (,) got 25th, Abadango () and Paseriman () got 33rd while kept () and HIKARU (,) got 49th.

 

[Rizen]

Results for Seibugeki 9

1. Shuton
2. KEN
3. Eim
4. Repo
5. MASA
5. Yamanaction
7. takera
7. Manzoku
9. Gorioka
9. Mikitsu
9. TRIGGER
9. Raito
13. Futari no Kiwami Ah~!
13. Noi
13. Jagaimo
13. Umeki
17. Konokururu
17. Ly
17. Huto
17. Aiyu
17. Kyou
17. Higusaki
17. Keroguchi
17. Taikei

Kameme (,) got 25th, Abadango (,) and Paseriman () got 33rd while kept () and HIKARU (,) got 49th.

Shuton's been kicking it up to high gear with Pythra. Seibugeki 9: 1st, Kagaribi 5 2nd, WINNER! #4 1st and Seibugeki 8 4th. Maybe now we'll finally get nerfs to them.

I played YL vs Incineroar in a tournament recently and am changing that MU from slightly YL's favor to even. The reason is revenge is the best absorber move in the game. Although YL controls the match 80% of the time, Roar can get revenge off projectiles and use it with his grapples to kill YL at 60%. YL probably won't be killing him until 140%. This is a common theme for YL: killing the opponent much later than they kill him. Revenge is what ties Roar's kit all together and keeps him from being a bad character.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Shuton's been kicking it up to high gear with Pythra. Seibugeki 9: 1st, Kagaribi 5 2nd, WINNER! #4 1st and Seibugeki 8 4th. Maybe now we'll finally get nerfs to them.

I mean Shuton is the EVO Japan 2020 winner and was top 5 in Japan for a long time (and before Olimar was nerfed was top 1). Him being as consistent as Zackray and ProtoBanham isn't really too surprising, he probably doesn't even need Pythra to be that consistent anyways. He's still an Olimar main.

 

[blackghost]

SWT: NA East Finals has concluded the Round Robin pools. Here is how each set went:


Pool 1
Tweek 1-3 Myran
Tweek 3-2 Yez
Tweek 3-2 WaDi
Myran 3-2 WaDi
Myran 3-1 Yez
WaDi 3-0 Yez


Pool 2
Vendetta 3-1 Armadillo
Vendetta 3-1 KirbyKid
Vendetta 2-3 naitosharp (Sharp went random after game 2, and won with Chrom and Diddy)
naitosharp 3-2 Armadillo
naitosharp 2-3 KirbyKid
KirbyKid 3-0 Armadillo


Pool 3
Riddles 3-1 Rivers
Riddles 2-3 Syrup
Riddles 3-0 Kola
Kola 3-1 Syrup
Kola 3-0 Rivers
Rivers 3-1 Syrup


Pool 4
ESAM 3-0 Wrath
ESAM 3-1 LeoN
ESAM 1-3 Dabuz
Dabuz 1-3 LeoN
Dabuz 3-1 Wrath
LeoN 3-2 Wrath


Interesting turn of sets.

• Myran's victory over Tweek being the biggest upset (alongside Tweek sandbagging most of the rest of the pool with DK lol).
• Sharp beating Vendetta with random select (although his random select was kinda lucky, even getting his SSB4 co-main in Diddy).
• Sharp ended up losing to KirbyKid with a reverse 3-0 (Sharp really struggled to figure out the timing of throwing K. Rool when the crown was coming back, likely due to matchup unfamiliarity, and that costed him so many interactions throughout the course of the set).
• Riddles falling to Syrup (Kazuya's sluggish autoturnaround costed him game 4).
• Riddles then immediately afterwards 3-0'ed Kola with Terry (in only 10 minutes).

What tomorrow's bracket looks like:


Winner's
Myran vs KirbyKid
ESAM vs Kola (the Glitch rematch!)
Vendetta vs Tweek
Riddles vs Dabuz


Loser's
Armadillo vs WaDi
Rivers vs LeoN
Yez vs naitosharp
Wrath vs Syrup


Predictions:

• I think WaDi, LeoN, and naitosharp are the safe bets to win their first match in loser's. Wrath vs Syrup is more of a toss-up to me, but I think Wrath is more likely.
• Myran tends to be shaken up against matchups he is unfamiliar with, so KirbyKid might trip him up, but otherwise I think Myran has this one.
• ESAM vs Kola is a bit of a toss-up considering how close their set in Glitch went, but I think ESAM is the likely victor since he plays the long game well.
• I think Tweek has it vs Vendetta well, especially if he decides to actually stick to his guns.
• Riddles vs Dabuz is going to be very interesting. I think Riddles is definitely going Terry for this set (to avoid playing Kazuya vs Min Min), and his Terry has a good track record against Min Mins (if his set vs Pink Fresh has anything to say). This may result in a response to likely Rosalina, and then the set spices up from there.

vendetta was ON POINT yesterday. he played exceptionally well. that might be the best games ive ever seen him play.
idk whats up with tweek he's gotta figure it out.
i cant take anything riddles says on his stream or even tweets seriously anymore every character choice he makes in events contradicts himself.

i need to watch the dabuz vs leon set.

 

[Rizen]

I mean Shuton is the EVO Japan 2020 winner and was top 5 in Japan for a long time (and before Olimar was nerfed was top 1). Him being as consistent as Zackray and ProtoBanham isn't really too surprising, he probably doesn't even need Pythra to be that consistent anyways. He's still an Olimar main.

He's been preforming better these last 3 tournaments than he has since in person tournaments came back. From what the results say and I've seen in Kagaribi 5, Shuton co-mains Pythra.

 

[NotLiquid]

If you're playing against a character like Bowser who can spare no expense in ledgetrapping you for days the moment he puts you in disadvantage and then kills you off of one or two hits, you yourself can't back down in capitalizing on his own weak spots. That's the sort of comment that goes without saying, but the vigilance of Bowser play can't really be overstated enough. Unless you're Pikachu or Sonic, your odds of disengaging with Bowser's threat range are fairly slim, so it's always all or nothing.

Something I'm missing from Dabuz's play of Min Min that I see more with Proto and Pink Fresh is that he's not particularly aggressive when an opponent's off-stage. Can't say if that's the Rosalina / Olimar muscle memory speaking for him who are usually comfortable just chilling on footed ground, but take the Kalos game as an example. Min Min gets Bowser off-stage and piles up over 140% of pure damage from the comfort of his on-stage Ram Rams. At that point, Bowser should not be alive. The moment Min Min starts catching those FSmashes, she's pretty comfortable just running off-stage and hitting you with a Megawatt at sub-kill percents. Even an off-stage Arm Hook will do the job in the rare cases of a miss, but since Dabuz didn't do that and kept banking on RamRam FSmashes to send him off the blast zone, Bowser managed to get back on stage after a failed ledgetrap, and that's when you get back to playing the game of "first one to get hit is going to be in a world of hurt".

Both of those characters are surprisingly evenly matched in terms of what they like and don't like to do; confirm into huge damage from a few hits, push advantage extremely hard, but sport awkward ledge get-up options and a tendency to occasionally get stymied on landing (which Dabuz flubbed more than once, notably with how many grabs he missed). These are two of the most volatile characters in the game for good reason, and against each other those stocks can go flying in seconds since all they want to do is force themselves onto you and push momentum.

 

[toonito]

Riddles 3-2 Dabuz to qualify for the SWT Championship!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Our first sets for the day have concluded.


Out at 13th:
Armadillo 3-2 WaDi
Rivers 2-3 LeoN
Yez 1-3 naitosharp (the one game lost was game 1 as Cloud)
Wrath 3-1 Syrup


In winner's:
Riddles 3-2 Dabuz
Vendetta 1-3 Tweek (the one game taken was game 3 as Ryu)
ESAM 1-3 Kola (his Cloud defeated the Lylat counterpick that killed him at Glitch)
Myran 3-2 KirbyKid


Riddles, Tweek, Kola, and Myran are all guaranteed to move on the SWT.


Our loser's matchups now:
Dabuz vs Armadillo
Vendetta vs LeoN
ESAM vs naitosharp
KirbyKid vs Wrath

 

[Rizen]

Congrats to Myran for going on a tear and even beating Tweek!

 

[DiddyK0ng]

Exciting stuff seeing my man Armadillo and his

making him a very legitimate and formidable bracket threat.

LOL

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

LOL

Stop being a ****. We get it, Armadillo underperformed with Lucario, Lucario isn't that good of a character. You don't need to be an asshole about it.

 

[NotLiquid]

Imagine entering a thread and gloating about a low-key Lucario player missing SWT qualifications after they eliminated one of the best ROB players and one of the better seeded players of this tourney.

You'd have to be a special kind of pathetic to find that something worth gloating about, let alone making and using an account only for the purpose of talking crap about that player.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ouch. That was such a heartbreaking way to end such an intense set. Wrath had the lead, but ESAM had a chance to even it up, but then he SD'd doing for going for the Glitch.
ESAM 2-3 Wrath in a reverse 3-0, after getting 3-0'd yesterday.


We now have our 6 players moving on with the SWT.
Myran, Kola, Tweek, Riddles, Dabuz, and Wrath. At this point, the sets are mostly going to be for seeding, but there is prize money involved for this so the competition is still intense.

 

[Rran]

Seeing KirbyKid--a friggin' K. Rool main--come so far in this tournament... well, it just brings a little bit of warmth to whatever remains of my cold, shattered black heart <3

 

[The_Bookworm]

SWT: NA East Ultimate Regional Finals

1st: Kola
2nd: Riddles
3rd: Dabuz
4th: Tweek
5th: Myran
5th: Wrath

7th: ESAM
7th: Vendetta
9th: KirbyKid
9th: naitosharp
9th: LeoN
9th: Armadillo
13th: Syrup
13th: Yez
13th: Rivers
13th: WaDi


Tweek may have an Olimar problem.
This top 8 had some high action going on despite the 6 placements already being sealed.
Also, shoutouts to the random game crash during Riddles vs Dabuz music selection. XD

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So honest question, who does Smashboards think is better, Chrom or Roy?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well despite chance that things could of have gone differently if Tweek did not intentionally Sandbag by going in his set vs Riddles. But still a amazing performance by Kola. If he can work on being consistent with the quaility of play he showed he can be one of the best players in the world

 

[Cheryl~]

Dabuz posted a tweet earlier today discussing his issues with playing Min Min under pressure, stating that because she has to commit and execute her advantage perfectly to offset her horrid disadvantage, that he might be looking into other secondaries because as he put, he's not very good at doing all that under pressure. And honestly I completely agree with the part saying that she has to commit. People may see the range on her moves and think she's this all powerful safe neutral character, and while her neutral is remarkable, she is probably one of the most whiff punishable characters in the entire game, even without her laggy Smash attacks. committing to double tilts can cover a ton of options and space, but people will still shield, and good players like Riddles will parry the second arm and get that extra bit of frame advantage. If you're playing a character that can jump into her blindspot (similar to Olimar's blindspot issue), this whiff punishing becomes even easier. And she HAS to attempt to play safe, even while committing to these tilts, because as mentioned before, her disadvantage is complete ****. In fact, a notable Min Min player, PinkShirtGuy, posted this tweet earlier today:

https://twitter.com/PinkShirtGuySSB/status/1457429378774745094?s=20

Although Min Min players knew about this before, it's still an important piece about her disadvantages at ledge, and how people should be trying to punish that as much as possible when they get in on her. Couple that with her cruddy recovery, and you've got a character that, despite her amazing strengths, has clear holes in her gameplan that I believe hinder her from ever getting past a top 15-20 spot on the tier list. When you're playing her at your best and executing her broken advantage state, and simply NOT getting hit, then she's dumb. (aka ProtoBanHam lol) But sometimes all of that can fall apart with just a few interactions, like Dabuz' set versus LeoN this weekend. And that kind of issue is why I can gel with Dabuz's feelings about needing a more consistent secondary.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Dabuz posted a tweet earlier today discussing his issues with playing Min Min under pressure, stating that because she has to commit and execute her advantage perfectly to offset her horrid disadvantage, that he might be looking into other secondaries because as he put, he's not very good at doing all that under pressure. And honestly I completely agree with the part saying that she has to commit. People may see the range on her moves and think she's this all powerful safe neutral character, and while her neutral is remarkable, she is probably one of the most whiff punishable characters in the entire game, even without her laggy Smash attacks. committing to double tilts can cover a ton of options and space, but people will still shield, and good players like Riddles will parry the second arm and get that extra bit of frame advantage. If you're playing a character that can jump into her blindspot (similar to Olimar's blindspot issue), this whiff punishing becomes even easier. And she HAS to attempt to play safe, even while committing to these tilts, because as mentioned before, her disadvantage is complete ****. In fact, a notable Min Min player, PinkShirtGuy, posted this tweet earlier today:

https://twitter.com/PinkShirtGuySSB/status/1457429378774745094?s=20

Although Min Min players knew about this before, it's still an important piece about her disadvantages at ledge, and how people should be trying to punish that as much as possible when they get in on her. Couple that with her cruddy recovery, and you've got a character that, despite her amazing strengths, has clear holes in her gameplan that I believe hinder her from ever getting past a top 15-20 spot on the tier list. When you're playing her at your best and executing her broken advantage state, and simply NOT getting hit, then she's dumb. (aka ProtoBanHam lol) But sometimes all of that can fall apart with just a few interactions, like Dabuz' set versus LeoN this weekend. And that kind of issue is why I can gel with Dabuz's feelings about needing a more consistent secondary.

Umm prehaps I am missing something. But Dabuz has used both Olimar and Rosa just about as much as Min-Min for matchups. To the point where be basically Tri-mains them all. I think Min-Min may be his least used character


But otherwise I get where he is going. Min-Min is still very strong , but the cracks in Min-Mins Wall of ARMS ate beginning to show.

I mean we look at ProtoBaham for Min-Min's best results. But in all honestly he owes Lucina as much credit for his success in the post- pandemic online era for Matchups where Min-Min wasfailing him.

I mean Pink Fresh was the only high-level placing Solo Min- Min main as of now.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

So honest question, who does Smashboards think is better, Chrom or Roy?

I believe in Roy more and I think that's the vast majority of people.

 

[NotLiquid]

Umm prehaps I am missing something. But Dabuz has used both Olimar and Rosa just about as much as Min-Min for matchups. To the point where be basically Tri-mains them all. I think Min-Min may be his least used character


But otherwise I get where he is going. The cracks in Min-Mins Wall of ARMS ate beginning to show.

I mean we look at ProtoBaham for Min-Min's best results. But in all honestly he owes Lucina as much credit for his success in the post- pandemic online era for Matchups his Min-Min began failing him.

I mean Pink Fresh was the only high-level placing Solo Min- Min main as of now.

Underscoring ProtoBanham's Lucina comes with the notable caveat that as recently as this week, after his fifth placing in Kagaribi 5, he's moving the other direction and sees himself focusing more on Min Min rather than Lucina in the foreseeable future. Despite the eternal schrödinger's cat scenarios of whether co-main players could prosper by focusing on one character, we're in the post-world of Proto managing to go toe-to-toe with Eim in what many have considered a borderline unwinnable matchup, on top of Dabuz recently managing to almost reverse 3-0 WaDi's ROB by counterpicking her, and also using her to score his first set win in Ultimate (followed by a loss!) against MKLeo.

And hell, that's a player worth bringing up who already illuminates how kind of fruitless that solo viability debate is if you look at Joker. Universally considered a top tier and debatably the best of the three characters occupying his lineup, which he is considered the best player of, is nowadays relegated to a secondary in favor of a character that's still regularly believed to be mid-tier at best, leaving that prospective top tier kind of stranded in terms of solo representation at a top level since neither Sharp or Zackray stay committed to him. Holistically if you want to take stock in Pink Fresh's solo performance as the upper baseline for Min Min's individual potential, you're left with the hypothetical thought exercise of whether this player who was at one point "pretty good" had merely made the transition to an inarguably great one after he found a character that highlights his strengths, or if going beyond that, his performance against several top players could be indicative of where this character could go in the hands of an even more consistently executional player, like he'd once done with Bayonetta. I think contrasting Dabuz and Pink Fresh's sets against Riddles provides food for thought in this regard, even when Dabuz fell to Riddles.

Larry Lurr recently called Min Min the game's "meta check", and I think this is looking very likely when looking at how she's been trending the last month on OrionStats, as well as what top players have said about her. Leo and Zackray both consider her their hardest character to go up against, even with the cognizance of her downsides, because they're always having to contend with how much she has a snowball effect. She stresses every ounce of fundamental game/matchup knowledge in volatile ways that few characters do, and might go ways to influence how people approach the game on a holistic level, even when she herself may not go far beyond a top 15 range.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Character representation for SWT

Character rep. for the SWT Championships in Dec. (Minus Last Events / LCQ):

- Jigglypuff
- Metaknight
- Terry
- Kazuya
- Byleth
- PT
- Diddy
- Gren.
- Wario
- Luigi
- Y Link
- Roy
- Cloud
- Joker
- Ness
- Aegis
- Sonic
- Palu
- Min
- Samus
- ROB
- Rosa
- Oli
- Snake
- Wolf
- G&W

— GimR @ #LVLUPEXPO (@VGBC_GimR) November 8, 2021

 

[Hippieslayer]

I think you shouldn't use an inconsistent character as a secondary. Generally speaking. You could def see that with Tweek and his Seph, I guess the same might be true for Dabuz and his MinMin too.

 

[blackghost]

idk the smash scene has so many top players who get less certain of thier mains over time its like the exact reverse of other scenes.

riddles qualifiying with terry contradicts so much of what he has said on stream or tweeted.

 

[Rizen]

I'm going to go over some imbalances in the current meta and how they should be patched.

The elephant in the room is and they're getting results everywhere. Yes you could say that they have a weakness in recovery but I'd argue it's not as bad as Roy's recovery and look how well he's doing. Pythra have everything else going for them, very fast, big disjointed hitboxes on an extremely mobile character in Mythra, great midrange game (something Lucina lacks) with their sideBs and the pair compliments each other really well. Mythra is superb at building damage and most of Pyra's moves are designed to kill. Not to mention foresight.
So how to nerf them? IMO the easiest way to maintain their character traits but balance all their strengths would be to nerf their weight into oblivion, like Sephiroth. Several characters are really good but also extremely light to make them glass cannons like G&W, Fox and Pikachu.

is a good yet well balanced character but I do have one complaint: koopa klaw aka body slam doesn't give the opponent enough time to react so Bowser can force stock trades even when he's at a much higher %. This kind of thing is stupid, especially on wifi. Klaw should linger in the air longer upon contact so the opponent can react.

has 0-death combos from gyro drop into rotor arms vs everybody. Reduce the base knock back on rotor arms so he can't kill until higher %s even offstage. Maybe slightly nerf his Usmash's power too.

. You could make the argument that Ganon is how the devs want him to be but there's no reason his recovery should be this abysmally bad. It is so easy to gimp him at 30% by just swatting him offstage. He already has glaring weaknesses in poor mobility and frame data with no long range attacks. Make it so his sibe B doesn't cause freefalling, opponents can't mash out of Ganoncide and give him tough guy armor just to get him up to par with other mediocre heavy weights like Incineroar.

has somehow managed to miss the buff train time after time despite almost never appearing in any top 8s and already better characters like Ness, Sonic and Cloud all getting buffs. He's not a bad character but he also has close to no significance on the meta and glaring flaws in both frame data and mobility. His sword got bigger but his frame data got even worse from SSB4. He's a sword zoner/projectile zoner hybrid but in that his abilities are weaker than pure characters of either catagory. He gets outbuttoned by swordies with better mobility and frame data and outcamped by better projectile characters. Buff his terrible frame 8 jab to f6 to get it on par with slow swordies like Hero's and give him several startup buffs to bring him more in line with his SSB4 self. Ftilt f15-12, DA f20-15, Fsmash f17-15, Fair f16-14. He'd still be imoble and slow but not terribly so.

 

[Dan Quixote]

. You could make the argument that Ganon is how the devs want him to be but there's no reason his recovery should be this abysmally bad. It is so easy to gimp him at 30% by just swatting him offstage. He already has glaring weaknesses in poor mobility and frame data with no long range attacks. Make it so his sibe B doesn't cause freefalling, opponents can't mash out of Ganoncide and give him tough guy armor just to get him up to par with other mediocre heavy weights like Incineroar.

This would be great for his competitive viability but idk, he'd get so much more supremely annoying in casual settings. Adding tough guy on a lot of his moves would be amazing for both imo though.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Honestly. I do not see any future balance patches except to maybe to fix those Sora D-Smash bugs. Or if he ends uo being like a Smash 4 Bayo situation which looks pretty unlikelt

 

[Nah]

So how to nerf them? IMO the easiest way to maintain their character traits but balance all their strengths would be to nerf their weight into oblivion, like Sephiroth. Several characters are really good but also extremely light to make them glass cannons like G&W, Fox and Pikachu.

As much as I don't personally feel that Pythra needs nerfs, I don't think that I'd say no to this.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

As much as I don't personally feel that Pythra needs nerfs, I don't think that I'd say no to this.

Yeah, Mythra's archetype is supposed to be like or with a sword. Greninja's weight is 88 while Sheik is 75. Mythra is 92 units, the same as . She feels too heavy like to me (I'd argue Joker's more egregious because he has a good recovery and an incredibly strong comeback mechanic).

 

[WatwatBreton]

Yeah, Mythra's archetype is supposed to be like or with a sword. Greninja's weight is 88 while Sheik is 75. Mythra is 92 units, the same as . She feels too heavy like to me (I'd argue Joker's more egregious because he has a good recovery and an incredibly strong comeback mechanic).

Slight tangent here (I had no idea Mythra was so heavy lmao this character is cracked), but since I've seen that point fairly often I thought I'd address it - is it really meaningful to think of Arsene as a comeback mechanic?

He's gonna come out every stock in most games (unless you get cheesed despite having one of the best recoveries in the game), disappears in a poof if you lose 1/2 neutral exchanges (ie are losing, like if you get him your Arsene pop offstage and get ledgetrapped twice you're in a rough spot), and if you get him twice in a stock you're probably doing ok. The only thing that might qualify as comeback is the fact rebel gauge charges faster on your last stock, but you're likely to get him anyway and it feels more like a part of the character than any form of comeback (much like how I wouldn't consider Waft to be a comeback mechanic, it's just a dumb volatile tool on top of a very good character).

I guess having a powerful tool like that that can swing games counts as a comeback mechanic just because it makes games more volatile? But that'd extend the definition to a lot of tools (is DK a comeback mechanic by himself? lol), and I currently find it difficult to justify the term "comeback mechanic" outside of cases where the game directly looks at the stock count and rewards you for being behind.

Just for thoughts, our current comeback-ish mechanics in the game are:

• Aura, which is stronger if you're behind in stocks (that one counts).
• Arsene (cf above).
• Terry GO, that's more of a "win more" if anything - you only get it if you survive long enough, and it doesn't care whether you're currently behind or not.
• Sephiroth wing, which lasts longer if you're behind in stocks (that one counts).
• Rage Drive, which I'd put in the same category as Terry (although Kazuya is overall just a big pile of volatility lol).
• Rage in general, which is... weird. Can screw up some character combo paths, rewards you for surviving but also for taking first stock, doesn't care about stock count, it's more of its own thing at this point.