Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SwagGuy99]

Yea I think can definelty reach high tier level. Yeah she is technically nerfed from 4. But she does gets some advantages from Ultimates mechanices.

I agree that she works well in Ultimate's mechanics despite her nerfs and she isn't the only example of a character like this.

is another character who was nerfed (this is debatable he got a lot of good buffs too) who just works well because of Ultimate's mechanics. His edgeguarding game really gets to shine in Ultimate, unlike in Smash 4 where edgeguarding wasn't as prominent and Brawl where he was just a bad character. Not to mention that the ability to do tilts out of a dash, especially down tilt (this applies to as well), allows him to start combos quickly. The other big thing that he benefits from are smaller blastzones. This is because Mario is one of the few (if not the only) character(s) that can still preform ladder combos at % where he can kill off of them. So because of the smaller blastzones, he can preform them even earlier than he can in Smash 4.

 

[Deathcarter]

Zackray posted a Wolf matchup on his twitter:

https://twitter.com/Ssb4_Zackray/status/1095258406699450368

That looks unbelievably balanced for a Smash Top Tier.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zackray posted a Wolf matchup on his twitter:

View attachment 191862

https://twitter.com/Ssb4_Zackray/status/1095258406699450368

That looks unbelievably balanced for a Smash Top Tier.

That's Wolf for you. Slower but stronger spacie pretty much equates to fairly middling stats all-around which prevents most matchups from being too extreme.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I agree that she works well in Ultimate's mechanics despite her nerfs and she isn't the only example of a character like this.

is another character who was nerfed (this is debatable he got a lot of good buffs too) who just works well because of Ultimate's mechanics. His edgeguarding game really gets to shine in Ultimate, unlike in Smash 4 where edgeguarding wasn't as prominent and Brawl where he was just a bad character. Not to mention that the ability to do tilts out of a dash, especially down tilt (this applies to as well), allows him to start combos quickly. The other big thing that he benefits from are smaller blastzones. This is because Mario is one of the few (if not the only) character(s) that can still preform ladder combos at % where he can kill off of them. So because of the smaller blastzones, he can preform them even earlier than he can in Smash 4.

Honestly I think what is really holding Mario back right now is how strong and popular most swordies are right now, characters that he always infamously struggled versus

 

[KakuCP9]

I don't think Pichu beats Wolf in any capacity. Pichu's lack of burst options outside of dash attack make it difficult for her navigate lasers and his giant ground buttons discourage Pichu from fighting him on the ground (and her low fast- fall speed discourages aerial approaches too). Sure she can duck the lasers, but that won't help her against Wolf's buttons.While Pichu can edge-guard Wolf, he can ledge-trap Pichu in return with little difficulty due Pichu's upb not having a hitbox but that's forgetting how difficult it can be for Pichu to win neutral in the first place. Fox is honestly way more difficult to fight that Pichu.

 

[MG_3989]

I'll try to remember to look through the videos I've liked later.
I tend to watch best ness, balance , varun,mint, sogoodpop.

Best ness seems known in the community, but I think it was sogoodpop that had a close set against Fow.

I know Bestness secondaries WfT but it seems like he doesn’t bring her out in serious games and big tournaments and sticks with Ness. I mean he probably secondaries her because he think she’s fun and not because she covers Ness’s bad matchups but I don’t know that for sure. I’ve seen footage of him playing her though and he makes her look good

 

[Impax]

I know Bestness secondaries WfT but it seems like he doesn’t bring her out in serious games and big tournaments and sticks with Ness. I mean he probably secondaries her because he think she’s fun and not because she covers Ness’s bad matchups but I don’t know that for sure. I’ve seen footage of him playing her though and he makes her look good

I'm not tech savvy but the tweet below was best ness response to dabuz saying she was good.

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I was way ahead of everyone on this. People still sleepin https://t.co/pabkBPIJWg​

— AR | BestNess (@BestNess_) January 9, 2019​

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I'm no​

 

[SwagGuy99]

Honestly I think what is really holding Mario back right now is how strong and popular most swordies are right now, characters that he always infamously struggled versus

It sucks that so many characters are being/going to be forced out due to the fact that characters with strong disjoints like are becoming so popular. and are probably the best known examples of characters being forced out becuase of this but there are other characters who also may be held back because of this like . I'm not saying that all of the swordfighters are good and I'm not saying that all of the other characters are bad, but most characters who can't contest with the strong disjoints of those fighters probably won't ever make it any higher than high tier (except and maybe ) unless they get their range buffed or the swordfighters get their range toned down.

 

[NotLiquid]

Zackray posted a Wolf matchup on his twitter:

View attachment 191862

https://twitter.com/Ssb4_Zackray/status/1095258406699450368

That looks unbelievably balanced for a Smash Top Tier.

Wolf feels like he's in not too dissimilar of a position that Mario was in Smash 4, an ostensible rounded character who's easy to wrap your head around and weaknesses that are fairly glaring, though given the cast opposition it's made up for with everything else. Decent mobility, decent range, great neutral tools, good frame data, a few attacks that have a real "x-factor", although usually ends up having to fish for a kill after certain points (which isn't necessarily bad given that BAir, UTilt and Down Smash all get the job done), and can get stuffed hard off-stage. Every character Zackray listed as an unfavorable or neutral matchup are characters that either have an easier time in killing him or comboing him (Fox, Pichu, Wario, Peach), or just straight up have a stupidly good off-stage game (Inkling, Lucina/Marth and Shulk). Despite the hype, I would still call him a relatively "honest" character.

Pichu being such a negative matchup is interesting though, especially considering how easy he goes down to so many of Wolf's attacks.

 

[Planty]

Zackray posted a Wolf matchup on his twitter:

View attachment 191862

https://twitter.com/Ssb4_Zackray/status/1095258406699450368

That looks unbelievably balanced for a Smash Top Tier.

Is there any reason that you know of that Rosalina was excluded from this chart? The matchup is probably somewhat advantageous for Wolf, but it'd be nice to hear of it from a top player perspective.

 

[MG_3989]

I'm not tech savvy but the tweet below was best ness response to dabuz saying she was good.

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I was way ahead of everyone on this. People still sleepin https://t.co/pabkBPIJWg​

— AR | BestNess (@BestNess_) January 9, 2019​

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I'm no​

I really don’t know much about Wii Fit at all. I’ve seen Bestness use a lot more Ness and I don’t think he used Wii Fit at Genesis (let me know if I’m wrong). At most tournaments I’ve seen him use Ness but I have seen him use Wii Fit a couple times. Maybe this will change in the future though. Maybe he’s not using Wii Fit right now as much because he’s more comfortable with Ness and Ness is producing really good results right now, idk. He’s a really good and creative player though and if he has some Wii Fit videos he’d be a good person to judge the character off

It sucks that so many characters are being/going to be forced out due to the fact that characters with strong disjoints like are becoming so popular. and are probably the best known examples of characters being forced out becuase of this but there are other characters who also may be held back because of this like . I'm not saying that all of the swordfighters are good and I'm not saying that all of the other characters are bad, but most characters who can't contest with the strong disjoints of those fighters probably won't ever make it any higher than high tier (except and maybe ) unless they get their range buffed or the swordfighters get their range toned down.

Ness will be fine. He’s got plenty of tools and strong disjoints of his own. So will Pichu, Pikachu, and Fox. They can all deal with disjoints and they can all rushdown. There’s a reason they’re all doing well now, because they’re good characters

 

[Rizen]

's been doing fine, despite sword characters. The advantage disjointed characters have is balanced by slower frame data, usually. Sword characters are good but they're not going to push other characters out of the meta. 2 examples are Wario and Pichu, who have minimal disjoints but are extremely strong.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I think your PGR player is dead wrong about D pit being better than pit. The main thing that separates them is the arrows and since pit can use them in more ways than D pit it gives him a massive advantage.

I think that's it's not smart to only use one pit over the other. They are bothe the exact same except for specials, there is zero reason to not use them both.

's been doing fine, despite sword characters. The advantage disjointed characters have is balanced by slower frame data, usually. Sword characters are good but they're not going to push other characters out of the meta. 2 examples are Wario and Pichu, who have minimal disjoints but are extremely strong.

Unfortunately, you can't say the same for characters like With aerials that come out at frame 10.

 

[MG_3989]

's been doing fine, despite sword characters. The advantage disjointed characters have is balanced by slower frame data, usually. Sword characters are good but they're not going to push other characters out of the meta. 2 examples are Wario and Pichu, who have minimal disjoints but are extremely strong.

Exactly. I don’t think this game is gonna turn into “I Have a Sword: The Game”. Characters like Fox, Pichu, Pikachu, Ness, Wario, etc... have been more successful so far than the majority of disjointed characters you listed. I think they did a good job balancing swords in this game actually

Unfortunately, you can't say the same for characters like With aerials that come out at frame 10.

Is kind of just unfortunate in general

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Inkling matchup chart from Abadango:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Lore]

Has there been any sort of consensus on Greninja yet? I'm enjoying playing the character, but I can't tell if the toolbox is limited or if it's a matter of player skill.

Honestly, my confusion is mostly because Shadow Sneak lets me steal kills from people unfamiliar with it. It a unique tool that just wins matches against unfamiliar players, but it falls off against more experienced ones.

 

[MG_3989]

Has there been any sort of consensus on Greninja yet? I'm enjoying playing the character, but I can't tell if the toolbox is limited or if it's a matter of player skill.

Honestly, my confusion is mostly because Shadow Sneak lets me steal kills from people unfamiliar with it. It a unique tool that just wins matches against unfamiliar players, but it falls off against more experienced ones.

I don’t think there’s a consensus on him except that he has a ton of potential and he’s hard to master. Some people think he would be top tier no doubt if he had the player base. I think he’s a very good character personally. And yes Greninja’s potential is generally seen as very high and a matter of player skill

 

[Hippieslayer]

Pit cannot control his arrows so they usefulness of the arrows are extremely limited. Since they really only shot in a straight line they're not going to cover as many options as pits arrows.

I do think it's important for us to rate the differences between the pits and not just consider them one character. The difference in arrows is enough to separate them.

Everyone knows that. No it does not make Them extremely limited Jesus.

Mods ffs

 

[Lore]

I don’t think there’s a consensus on him except that he has a ton of potential and he’s hard to master. Some people think he would be top tier no doubt if he had the player base. I think he’s a very good character personally. And yes Greninja’s potential is generally seen as very high and a matter of player skill

Sounds like a character who is fun to play and likely won't have the nerf hammer aimed at him. Fantastic. I'll happily play him more, then, along with Bowser. Sadly, Bowser's a character with much worse matchups, although I still think he is criminally underrated.

Seeing how the meta for this game shakes up will be interesting. It feels like so many people are bouncing around from character to character, with a wide spread of balance. I like it.

Edit: Not including FOTM picks like Wolf, Lucina, and Pichu, of course. I expect those three to stay top/high tier but to drop off a bit as people learn the matchups more. They are just incredibly easy characters to pick up if you have good fundamentals; heck, I even play all three a bit. They're hard to turn down at the moment.

 

[Rizen]

I wonder when non-Wolf players are going to figure out they can use projectiles in neutral. There are several characters who could build a lot of chip damage like Wolf does yet only use their projectile in advantage. I'm talking about Falco, Greninja, Samus, Mewtwo, etc who I see rushing down opponents. Take a few shots. Like in this video Leo's Wolf uses blaster but Stroder's Greninja never seems to use shuriken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJ6lMj2j-I&index=30&list=PLsoSl1w33CKRjg-DIo5p0sUhbE_Ky2CYO

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I wonder when non-Wolf players are going to figure out they can use projectiles in neutral. There are several characters who could build a lot of chip damage like Wolf does yet only use their projectile in advantage. I'm talking about Falco, Greninja, Samus, Mewtwo, etc who I see rushing down opponents. Take a few shots. Like in this video Leo's Wolf uses blaster but Stroder's Greninja never seems to use shuriken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJ6lMj2j-I&index=30&list=PLsoSl1w33CKRjg-DIo5p0sUhbE_Ky2CYO

Well Wolf does have a reflector. That combined with his own blaster can make most characters hesitant to use projectiles whenever vs him in Neutral unless your Olimar's pikmin. It does help Wolf with his current monopoly on it. Also I would not exactly call Samus's projectiles great neutral tools. It was stated that her or her Dark counterpart are "true" zoners. There more among the conditoning and bait-and-punish type

 

[Omnos]

Greninjas projectile is significantly worse than wolf's. Greninjas is also one of the fastest characters in the game so he can close distances better than wolf. Greninjas don't use water shuriken in neutral because it's pretty terrible in neutral except a few situations.

 

[Rizen]

Well Wolf does have a reflector. That combined with his own blaster can make most characters hesitant to use projectiles whenever vs him in Neutral unless your Olimar's pikmin. It does help Wolf with his current monopoly on it. Also I would not exactly call Samus's projectiles great neutral tools. It was stated that her or her Dark counterpart are "true" zoners. There more among the conditoning and bait-and-punish type

That's true but Wolf's reflector doesn't reflect until f10 (Fox's is 4). I've found with YL the best thing to do if Wolf tries to win neutral with blaster is to shoot arrows, which are faster.

Samus' (and Mewtwo's) uncharged shots have really spammable frame data. It shoots f16 but the animation only last 31 frames. Wolf's blaster last 49f. They could be really annoying in neutral.

Greninjas projectile is significantly worse than wolf's. Greninjas is also one of the fastest characters in the game so he can close distances better than wolf. Greninjas don't use water shuriken in neutral because it's pretty terrible in neutral except a few situations.

I agree blaster is better overall but Shurikens animation lasts 45f uncharged, which is slightly faster than Wolf's.

Projectiles are good at making neutral annoying for opponents who don't have them. They force an action or interrupt movement. If you're dash dancing or moving around in neutral it's okay to throw one out, from a safe distance.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja shuriken is definitely a great projectile and to say it’s significantly worse is definitely an overstatement.

And I don’t really see your point Rizen. Greninja can’t outcamp Wolf. Stroder knows this. Stroder consistently positioned himself in such a way that Leo rarely felt safe just throwing out blaster, which is the most important part of the matchup. Wolf is a character you really wanna turn the tempo up in, cuz Greninja gains more from these high paced neutral interactions than wolf.

 

[Rizen]

Greninja shuriken is definitely a great projectile and to say it’s significantly worse is definitely an overstatement.

And I don’t really see your point Rizen. Greninja can’t outcamp Wolf. Stroder knows this. Stroder consistently positioned himself in such a way that Leo rarely felt safe just throwing out blaster, which is the most important part of the matchup. Wolf is a character you really wanna turn the tempo up in, cuz Greninja gains more from these high paced neutral interactions than wolf.

No one said "out camp" Wolf. Projectiles control space. You use them at opportune times in neutral while moving. Leo's Wolf didn't just spam blaster but he used it in ways that hit Greninja. Greninja jumped, Wolf shot the landing. Gren dashed danced and got blastered. Greninja didn't take the opportunities. Granted, Leo was the better player but he completely controlled midrange spacing that set and Stroder let him. Just because Wolf has the better projectile doesn't mean greninja can't use his.

And I'm not just talking about this set; I've seen Falco not use blaster against Wolf and Wolf used his. The problem is people have this mindset that Wolf's blaster wins the midrange game. It's really good but other characters can play too. They let Wolf monopolize midrange zoning.

 

[MG_3989]

No one said "out camp" Wolf. Projectiles control space. You use them at opportune times in neutral while moving. Leo's Wolf didn't just spam blaster but he used it in ways that hit Greninja. Greninja jumped, Wolf shot the landing. Gren dashed danced and got blastered. Greninja didn't take the opportunities. Granted, Leo was the better player but he completely controlled midrange spacing that set and Stroder let him. Just because Wolf has the better projectile doesn't mean greninja can't use his.

And I'm not just talking about this set; I've seen Falco not use blaster against Wolf and Wolf used his. The problem is people have this mindset that Wolf's blaster wins the midrange game. It's really good but other characters can play too. They let Wolf monopolize midrange zoning.

I actually use PK Fire against Wolf on his landings if he’s getting too jumpy and PSI Magnet makes him super hesitant to use blaster so I get what you’re saying about using your projectiles in the midrange against him. Ness probably at least goes even on or wins midrange against him. Thing is Ness also has protection from his blaster

I mean if I was Falco I would no doubt be using my blaster against him but from the Falco play in general I’ve seen and experienced they don’t use their blaster nearly enough. Samus’s middles are kind of slow though and I think a lot of Samus mains get reflector in their head with Charge Shot. I didn’t want the game with Greninja but not many projectiles best out Wolf’s blaster in the midrange (like with Ness it takes a combination of PK Fire and PSI Magnet)

That said I don’t think Wolf will hold this top 3 spot for the entire meta. Top ten, no doubt, but not too 3. I can also be wrong about that though

 

[Nobie]

Wolf's projectile has a nasty combination of speed, power (does over 9% in ideal conditions), and intangibility. Most characters lose the projectile war unless they can quickly straight-up out-damage him on trades, and that's only a handful: Ryu depending on distance, Pichu sort of (self-damage is a factor), and stored-charge characters like Samuses, Wii Fit, Lucario, and Mewtwo (extra points for packing a reflector of their own). Maybe some others I missed. Not sure how Pikmin interact with blaster, either.

 

[Impax]

I really don’t know much about Wii Fit at all. I’ve seen Bestness use a lot more Ness and I don’t think he used Wii Fit at Genesis (let me know if I’m wrong). At most tournaments I’ve seen him use Ness but I have seen him use Wii Fit a couple times. Maybe this will change in the future though. Maybe he’s not using Wii Fit right now as much because he’s more comfortable with Ness and Ness is producing really good results right now, idk. He’s a really good and creative player though and if he has some Wii Fit videos he’d be a good person to judge the character of of.

He has a number of early in tournament matches and smaller tournament (including late stage) where hes used her onYouTube. But I don't think I've seen him use her against anyone particularly notable.

Read he used her in one match at genesis, but I have no idea if that's true or not.

I'm not a professional player but shes just vastly improved. She has better grabs, her deep breathing got a bunch of buffs and can lead to crazy damage output, she has actual combos, and her hit boxes are bigger. Even her projectiles are improved. She has an easier time reaching smallcharacters too. Her big nerf came to her recovery, but it's still good. And now that airdodging is gone she should, theoretically, have an easier time hitting you with her meteors.

Of course none of this makes her actually good. So I'm just going off what I'm hearing.

 

[MG_3989]

Wolf's projectile has a nasty combination of speed, power (does over 9% in ideal conditions), and intangibility. Most characters lose the projectile war unless they can quickly straight-up out-damage him on trades, and that's only a handful: Ryu depending on distance, Pichu sort of (self-damage is a factor), and stored-charge characters like Samuses, Wii Fit, Lucario, and Mewtwo (extra points for packing a reflector of their own). Maybe some others I missed. Not sure how Pikmin interact with blaster, either.

I mean Ness and Lucas definitely can’t out damage him straight up but PSI Magnet can make them win the projectile war with him. YL and TL have more range on their projectiles I think too that I’m thinking of right now

He has a number of early in tournament matches and smaller tournament (including late stage) where hes used her onYouTube. But I don't think I've seen him use her against anyone particularly notable.

Read he used her in one match at genesis, but I have no idea if that's true or not.

I'm not a professional player but shes just vastly improved. She has better grabs, her deep breathing got a bunch of buffs and can lead to crazy damage output, she has actual combos, and her hit boxes are bigger. Even her projectiles are improved. She has an easier time reaching smallcharacters too. Her big nerf came to her recovery, but it's still good. And now that airdodging is gone she should, theoretically, have an easier time hitting you with her meteors.

Of course none of this makes her actually good. So I'm just going off what I'm hearing.

I really don’t know much about her at all expect for a couple of matches Bestness has played with her I’ve seen. It doesn’t make sense for him not to use Ness for the most part right now at larger tournaments with Ness’s place in the meta but I would like to see more Wii Fit. I’m sure the character had enough positives if he’s been winning with her

 

[SwagGuy99]

Sounds like a character who is fun to play and likely won't have the nerf hammer aimed at him. Fantastic. I'll happily play him more, then, along with Bowser. Sadly, Bowser's a character with much worse matchups, although I still think he is criminally underrated.

I feel like Bowser's matchups will be extremely polarizing. He'll win by a decent amount against (some popular characters I think he may do well against) but will lose extremely hard to others like . He's going to be an interesting character to watch as the meta progresses. I also agree that he's underrated. I'd place him somewhere between top 25 and 30, but if he never ends up getting that great of results, he could move lower in the future.

 

[bc1910]

I wonder when non-Wolf players are going to figure out they can use projectiles in neutral. There are several characters who could build a lot of chip damage like Wolf does yet only use their projectile in advantage. I'm talking about Falco, Greninja, Samus, Mewtwo, etc who I see rushing down opponents. Take a few shots. Like in this video Leo's Wolf uses blaster but Stroder's Greninja never seems to use shuriken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJ6lMj2j-I&index=30&list=PLsoSl1w33CKRjg-DIo5p0sUhbE_Ky2CYO

Both characters’ projectiles occupy almost the exact same space and Wolf’s is better. If they are both at the range where their projectiles are safe it often results in them both throwing them out at the same time which is a negative trade for Greninja. Going for the chip damage usually isn’t worth it because so many of Wolf’s options beat shurikens (blaster, shield, jump, reflector). Shurikens are probably at their worst in this MU.

Now if you’re talking about using shurikens for chip damage in general, I agree with you. Greninja’s fancy new toys are all rushdown based so that’s the style we’re seeing the most of, but he’s very effective at disengaging and controlling the pace of the match since shurikens allow him to maintain pressure through chip damage. This is something I’d like to see more Greninja players utilise too.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It's not so much a matter of trying to outzone Wolf rather can you viably do so with the threat of his blaster coming straight at you when you do so. Some characters like you mention YLink can spam arrows fast, these arrows deal good knockback and set up into things. But not many characters have this luxury. If your projectile isn't doing near as much damage as Wolf's, isn't quick or doesn't really put Wolf in a bad spot if he takes the hit. Then I don't know if it's worth trying to contest his zoning when he has a slow but quite strong, very far reaching projectile that will knock you back ontop of his reflector he has at his disposal whenever.

Something I notice out about four of the six characters zackray says Wolf loses too. Four of them can deal with Blaster well. I don't know how Tjolt interacts with Blaster but I imagine Pichu can rack up fast damage against a character with Wolf's attributes and getting back to stage is probably very hard for Wolf against Pichu. Shulk in Speed and Jump probably doesn't care too much about blaster with those wild mobility stats and extreme range. Fox not only has a his own reflector but is also the quintessential zone breaker, blaster probably doesn't mean much to him either.

 

[Y2Kay]

No one said "out camp" Wolf. Projectiles control space. You use them at opportune times in neutral while moving. Leo's Wolf didn't just spam blaster but he used it in ways that hit Greninja. Greninja jumped, Wolf shot the landing. Gren dashed danced and got blastered. Greninja didn't take the opportunities. Granted, Leo was the better player but he completely controlled midrange spacing that set and Stroder let him. Just because Wolf has the better projectile doesn't mean greninja can't use his.

And I'm not just talking about this set; I've seen Falco not use blaster against Wolf and Wolf used his. The problem is people have this mindset that Wolf's blaster wins the midrange game. It's really good but other characters can play too. They let Wolf monopolize midrange zoning.

I see very little reward in the “opportunities” you claim Stroder missed. Wolf gains way more from Greninja staying back. When it comes to projectile heavy matchups like this, UNLESS Greninja can outcamp you (for example, S4 Lucas), it’s better for him to blitz his opponent so they don’t feel comfortable just setting up shop and laming Gren out. Greninja fullhopping at Wolf for shooting blaster at mid range is effective strategy because wolf doesn’t have the mobility to catch you mid jump and his AA options are not fast Enough to catch him.

And if you get hit with laser in the process of closing the gap, it’s not really s big deal. The goal is to win, not JV4 the opponent. It’s worth the risk considering how high Greninja damage output is.

 

[Ffamran]

Wolf's projectile has a nasty combination of speed, power (does over 9% in ideal conditions), and intangibility.

I get what you mean, I swear if this becomes a running gag with Wolf and the word intangibility. Wolf's Blaster bolts don't have intangibility or invincibility which would be weird for a projectile to have in the first place. They, along with the Fox's and Falco's lasers, have transcendent priority. Wolf himself also doesn't have invincibility during Blaster. If he did, then if his Blaster wasn't one of the best projectiles or the best projectile in Ultimate, it would be since you would not be able to damage him during whatever magical frames he's invincible.

 

[Nobie]

I get what you mean, I swear if this becomes a running gag with Wolf and the word intangibility. Wolf's Blaster bolts don't have intangibility or invincibility which would be weird for a projectile to have in the first place. They, along with the Fox's and Falco's lasers, have transcendent priority. Wolf himself also doesn't have invincibility during Blaster. If he did, then if his Blaster wasn't one of the best projectiles or the best projectile in Ultimate, it would be since you would not be able to damage him during whatever magical frames he's invincible.

I realized I meant transcendent shortly after posting, but figured "eh, they'll get what I mean."

That's why the ability to trade effectively with it is kind of important, imo.

 

[Ffamran]

I realized I meant transcendent shortly after posting, but figured "eh, they'll get what I mean."

That's why the ability to trade effectively with it is kind of important, imo.

Yeah, I know. It's just that I would rather not have false information, accidental or otherwise, end up being spread. To this day, people still think Smash 4 Falco's 1.0.8 had windboxes. The stupid thing did not gain windboxes, but had its loop hits changed to 367 degree autolink angles. Anyway, with how knee-jerk reactions and clickbaits seem to be the norm nowadays, I find it more imperative that information be as accurate as possible.

Also, you can edit your posts?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Everyone knows that. No it does not make Them extremely limited Jesus.

Mods ffs

Ok coil story bruv

The problem with Pit’s arrows is their pathetic knockback offstage. At low-mid percent they’re only good to snipe jumps from opponents who aren’t expecting it or don’t know how to handle them. You can basically just tank the hit and recover afterward except at really high percents and even then the knockback is only notable if Pit charges the arrows, which is easy to react to. So usually Pit needs to go offstage to edgeguard eventually, same as Dark Pit.

Pit’s arrows are certainly more versatile and are better edgeguarding tools at high percent but the advantages of Dark Pit’s arrows being faster and more powerful aren’t negligible, particularly in neutral and even for edgeguarding; DP’s are strictly better if he is level with his opponent. The advantages of Pit’s arrows aren’t enough to say definitively which arrows are better, let alone which character.

For what it’s worth I can see Pit’s being better once they’re optimised (forcing opponents into situations where they have to jump then sniping the jump) but right now I’d take DP’s.

Yeah as long as you're level with someone D. Pit will be the better option. However, for almost every other situation pit should be better. I do believe that the arrows is what separates the two the most.

 

[MG_3989]

Yeah as long as you're level with someone D. Pit will be the better option. However, for almost every other situation pit should be better. I do believe that the arrows is what separates the two the most.

So I haven’t seen a lot of high level Pit play at all and was wondering this because I thought I heard that they can. Can Pit’s arrows do the hard stop/zone out tail gimp thing that PK Thunder’s tail does or is that unique to PK Thunder? Further question does Lucas’s tail on PK Thunder have the same hard stop property as Ness’s?

I mean I know there are low knockback projectiles but I was curious if any worked in exactly the same way as PK Thunder

 

[TumblrFamous]

Samsora just released his own tier list and Peach MU chart.

This isn't that controversial, I feel this is pretty good and balanced. I'm surprised he has a relatively higher opinion of Bowser Jr. than most.

 

[MG_3989]

Yeah we were talking about the Samsora tier list a couple pages back. I guess he thinks Bowser Jr. has some potential. I didn’t play Smash 4 but I don’t know how bad Bowser Jr. actually was or if they were just held back by being seen as a terrible character so nobody explored them. Not that I’ve seen anyone explore them this game and I’ve never played them personally but I’ve heard a couple positive opinions about Bowser Jr. A few pages back somebody posted some really nice Bowser Jr. combos in this thread too, I forgot who

Also I like all these match up charts. I think ultimately (if accurate) they’re much more useful than tier lists. I wish one of the top Ness mains would do that but I highly doubt that because other than Jtails (who is only kind of a Ness main) none of them create content. I can pretty much figure it out but it would still be nice to have a guideline to look at and see what top players are struggling with and doing well against vs what I’m struggling with and doing well against