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Competitive Board "Meta" Discussion

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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ShayaJP
So in short, I wanted to open the floor here on how this board works and whatever comments or suggestions you may have.

Since the world release, this board has shot up in activity, and more and more users are making redundant threads due to not knowing the search features or scrolling down, and to a degree I cannot blame them. Good threads are getting flooded out because discussion of them has staled (albeit the information within is still universally applicable/helpful). The Mechanics General/Q&A isn't being adhered to or checked/posted in first by most users before they make new topics either. A better name could help with that?

Certain staple threads like a video conglomeration or a directory haven't been fully touched upon yet, and are likely needed. Other things may be helpful. How conversation/topics flow in this forum I'm happy to be proactive in such a way that keeps relevancy / goodness towards the top, while keeping superfluous fluff down and out.

Anywho, introducing this wasn't necessarily needed, but yeah I'm after feedback and thoughts!
What would you like to see? What do you think we can do to improve the environment here even further?
 
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Mamp

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Messages
131
I feel like this should be more visible, and the rules should be made clearer. Perhaps some more threads could be sticked, like the Stage Discussion thread?
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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I feel like this should be more visible, and the rules should be made clearer. Perhaps some more threads could be sticked, like the Stage Discussion thread?
How do you think it could be made more visible? I could manually set it to be the first sticky in the forum, but otherwise I don't know if I can do more. Topic title seems like it shouldn't confuse.
Any particular wording of those rules that you find confusing?

Stage thread actually is a solid sticky choice, that will be something I likely will do.
Thanks!
 

oldkingcroz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
103
"We want this forum to be enjoyable to read for all people, but not necessarily posted in by all people"

I found this paragraph of the guide to be a little vague. I'm kind of reading it like: "not everyone can post in here". The wording just feels a little off/ intimidating/ confusing.

As for the rest of the "rules", I feel that reading the 3 strike Probation clause first was a little bit distracting. It's more of a general forum rule, rather than the instructions used for posting in this specific sub forum, so I personally think it should be put after the rules, instead of before them. I think if the rules were a little more concise (having "don't do this, this, this, and this" right in the opening paragraph), it would be a little more successful. Know what I mean?


And, for the record, I am a new user and didn't [bother to] read the rules, until they were mentioned in this thread. I'm sure I am not the only one, but I'm not quite sure how you would solve the ignorant new member issue.

EDIT: I think why I missed the etiquette/ rules post was because I was just skipping past the (huge) advertisement, Smash Bundle news, and forum moderators sections in order to get to the bulk of the competitive forum. You gotta' shift through a lot of nonsense above the actuals posts in order to get to the "good stuff". There isn't any real way around it, but I found myself quick scrolling on my smart phone in order to arrive at the actual topics/posts. I think that is one of the reasons why the stickied' posts are not seen by newer users.
 
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Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,185
Location
Toronto
So in short, I wanted to open the floor here on how this board works and whatever comments or suggestions you may have.

Since the world release, this board has shot up in activity, and more and more users are making redundant threads due to not knowing the search features or scrolling down, and to a degree I cannot blame them. Good threads are getting flooded out because discussion of them has staled (albeit the information within is still universally applicable/helpful). The Mechanics General/Q&A isn't being adhered to or checked/posted in first by most users before they make new topics either. A better name could help with that?

Certain staple threads like a video conglomeration or a directory haven't been fully touched upon yet, and are likely needed. Other things may be helpful. How conversation/topics flow in this forum I'm happy to be proactive in such a way that keeps relevancy / goodness towards the top, while keeping superfluous fluff down and out.

Anywho, introducing this wasn't necessarily needed, but yeah I'm after feedback and thoughts!
What would you like to see? What do you think we can do to improve the environment here even further?
A couple weeks ago I started a video comp thread in the 3ds general forum. with videos in it that visually show the moveset changes in Brawl and Smash 4 - side by side synchronized footage of each characters' movesets. I've only done mario, pikachu, and link so far but am likely to complete the series.

Would this be of any value to the competitive sub forum?
 

Shaya

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ShayaJP
A couple weeks ago I started a video comp thread in the 3ds general forum. with videos in it that visually show the moveset changes in Brawl and Smash 4 - side by side synchronized footage of each characters' movesets. I've only done mario, pikachu, and link so far but am likely to complete the series.

Would this be of any value to the competitive sub forum?
It definitely wouldn't hurt, no.
 

Noa.

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
3,758
Location
Orlando, Florida
Don't we usually have a "Read this before posting" thread stickied at the top? One of the stickied threads could probably be repurposed for that. Just to direct users to threads that already exist or advice to read a lot before posting themselves in this forum.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
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Toronto
It definitely wouldn't hurt, no.
If a large compendium of such videos would get stickied, I would get to work on it right away. Without a sticky though, I've had trouble keeping the thread at the top so people can actually see it. So it wouldn't be worth the huge time investment to create such videos unless stickied.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
If a large compendium of such videos would get stickied, I would get to work on it right away. Without a sticky though, I've had trouble keeping the thread at the top so people can actually see it. So it wouldn't be worth the huge time investment to create such videos unless stickied.
I've been looking to sticky a thread that had videos people could reference. I haven't seen your thread though...
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
A list of some things:

* Consolidation of ruleset discussion topics and aggressive moderation thereof - Sometimes, there are just too many damn topics. You touched upon this in the OP, but seriously, having multiple threads for the same topic just because you didn't read past the top of page one isn't cool, and it really makes perusing the board a chore for the rest of us.

* Cracking down on superfluous AT threads - Ok, real talk: no one cares that you want to be the big man who named the next "wavedash". You know who remembers the person who named the "wavedash"? No one, that's who. People are SO concerned with being the big shot who discovered something new AND be the person who made the name that 100,000 other people will use for 8 years that they're willing to spam the boards with threads touting their own brilliance, and it helps no one because in most cases, they're things we already knew or things that don't need special names. Make one thread with an updated OP discussing physics exploits and glitches (and if they are useful) and aggressively close superfluous AT threads and infract people who spam the board with new threads multiple times (everyone gets their one).

* Hand out more infractions for bad / abusive behavior - By the way, by this rule, I'd have been infracted multiple times by now, and I'm honestly surprised I haven't been so far. Out of all of the Sm4sh boards so far, this one should be the absolute bastion of civility, humility, and good discussion. This will not happen without strong moderation. It needs to be absolutely clear to all that if you act badly on this subforum, you will not be able to post, period. Even the slightest hint at uncivil discussion should be dealt with strongly and vocally.

* A zero tolerance policy on social threads - It is not ok to go to the competitive boards and complain about how you don't think For Glory is fun. It is not ok to go to the competitive boards to post meme threads. It is not ok to go to the competitive forums and post sarcastic threads.

* Bring back the Smash Researcher - Those blue names used to mean something: when you saw a blue name post, that data was good, collected without bias, and those researchers were skilled in their craft. We may squabble about the interpretation, but you damn well knew that the data itself was accurate. Having absolutely respected members of the community who aren't bogged down by the ruleset squabbling the rest of us do gives us all an anchor for civility. Not to mention, they do damn good work. Find the good researchers, give them the title, and let them do the good science we all need.

* Have multiple mods and assign them moderation topics and threads - We need a video collection thread. We need frame data threads. We need threads cataloging event data. We need sticky threads of all kinds. Instead of letting the mob create these threads and update them, have all stickied threads assigned to mods who are tasked with making sure the OPs are updated and accurate. Nothing is more frustrating than having an important thread stickied and then having the TC leave for 2 months.

Just some things I thought of now.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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ShayaJP
We've just opened up a subforum here called the Academy. It will have topic making rules (so mods+). Plan will be to have data/well kept threads centred there.

I'll address the rest of your points in a bit, but I do appreciate it.
 
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deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
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Maybe controversial but... allow flaming.
 

Acton

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Messages
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Hudson Valley, NY
I definitely think we need to consolidate information. I think there should be ONE topic for physics exploits, both new and returning, and there should be ONE topic for new AT's. There should be a list in the first post with a link to the post that describes said AT/Physics exploit.

More moderators are necessary for this to be achieved. Definitely think things should be stricter around here. I'm not saying people should be banned or whatever, but there should be something like a 3 strike rule. Be nice to people and just personal message them, I'm sure 99% of the people here won't do it again. Obviously activity on these forums is going to increase significantly with the new game, so I don't think it's a good idea to dissuade people from posting what they might think is useful information, but posting opinions or just baiting arguments and throwing out insults should be unacceptable. People who post something that might be already known at least have good intentions, unless they're just trying to name some sort of AT.

I think the fist focus for the moderators should be centralizing information and enforcing the rules, members who post here should be aware of the fact that things are more formal here and rules need to be followed!

I think making this topic was a great idea, and it shows that the moderator team is active and wants to hear from the community! Good job guys, keep up the good work!
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
We've just opened up a subforum here called the Academy. It will have topic making rules (so mods+). Plan will be to have data/well kept threads centred there.

I'll address the rest of your points in a bit, but I do appreciate it.
This is awesome! Really excited to see you guys moving forward with this.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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A list of some things:

* Consolidation of ruleset discussion topics and aggressive moderation thereof - Sometimes, there are just too many damn topics. You touched upon this in the OP, but seriously, having multiple threads for the same topic just because you didn't read past the top of page one isn't cool, and it really makes perusing the board a chore for the rest of us.
Hopefully the sticky coverage I have right now will better cover things. Possibly should sticky custom movesets too, but "equipment" topics are their own monsters really, so having them separate seems fair; either way those threads are keeping popular/towards the top by default and we're generally killing the superfluous ones.

* Cracking down on superfluous AT threads - Ok, real talk: no one cares that you want to be the big man who named the next "wavedash". You know who remembers the person who named the "wavedash"? No one, that's who. People are SO concerned with being the big shot who discovered something new AND be the person who made the name that 100,000 other people will use for 8 years that they're willing to spam the boards with threads touting their own brilliance, and it helps no one because in most cases, they're things we already knew or things that don't need special names. Make one thread with an updated OP discussing physics exploits and glitches (and if they are useful) and aggressively close superfluous AT threads and infract people who spam the board with new threads multiple times (everyone gets their one).
I warn/infract people for making "AT" threads, I should make it more obvious but the stickied "Mechanics & Techniques General + Q&A" is meant to be the first port of call for this stuff.

* Hand out more infractions for bad / abusive behavior - By the way, by this rule, I'd have been infracted multiple times by now, and I'm honestly surprised I haven't been so far. Out of all of the Sm4sh boards so far, this one should be the absolute bastion of civility, humility, and good discussion. This will not happen without strong moderation. It needs to be absolutely clear to all that if you act badly on this subforum, you will not be able to post, period. Even the slightest hint at uncivil discussion should be dealt with strongly and vocally.
That is the intent, I hope with having a few extra mods around here with specific focus (SamuraiPanda being back and helping just here is amazing :D) the workload of that standard will be less. Either way, if you think a thread is going down that way then report it (posts too), there already are a few goodies around who are quick to posit that something isn't "worthy" and they're usually right; I wish I could promote "self-moderation" with this a bit more in some way (reporting basically is that, but is less apparent / public in terms of recognition); if possible, some alternative tools to allow that could be brought in here too. But beyond that we're one of the few areas with the 3 point infraction rule, and when I infract, I'm usually giving out two points for things which are clearly disruptive, it's very little sweat off of my back to eradicate someone from this room for multiple weeks at a time.
I also have a policy for hitting jokers / sarcasm, but I should make that more apparent. I call it the Price for being a Comedian warning.
To an extent I would've hoped that I could use warnings/infractions as liberally as I would like to "control" things (I still could), but I concede this isn't the healthiest policy to be stringent on - especially as I'm primarily dealing with newer users or players.

* A zero tolerance policy on social threads - It is not ok to go to the competitive boards and complain about how you don't think For Glory is fun. It is not ok to go to the competitive boards to post meme threads. It is not ok to go to the competitive forums and post sarcastic threads.
There should be a zero tolerance policy. Feel free to let me know through a report what I miss ;)

* Bring back the Smash Researcher - Those blue names used to mean something: when you saw a blue name post, that data was good, collected without bias, and those researchers were skilled in their craft. We may squabble about the interpretation, but you damn well knew that the data itself was accurate. Having absolutely respected members of the community who aren't bogged down by the ruleset squabbling the rest of us do gives us all an anchor for civility. Not to mention, they do damn good work. Find the good researchers, give them the title, and let them do the good science we all need.
Groups and colors are likely a thing for the not-so-distant future. Right now we have this Academy subforum and I'd hopefully like that to supplement that potentially in the future (with updates/perks). IF people make threads with objective information, I'm keen to have them in there. Currently in discussions with @Aerodrome about how to promote lab work/researching within the Academy. But at the least that subforum is the start of the latest Smash Lab.

* Have multiple mods and assign them moderation topics and threads - We need a video collection thread. We need frame data threads. We need threads cataloging event data. We need sticky threads of all kinds. Instead of letting the mob create these threads and update them, have all stickied threads assigned to mods who are tasked with making sure the OPs are updated and accurate. Nothing is more frustrating than having an important thread stickied and then having the TC leave for 2 months.

Just some things I thought of now.
We probably don't want too many stickies. BUT yes, we need those threads. Someone's come to me asking about making a video thread within the first few weeks of the game (they managed the Brawl one, but they haven't gotten back to me yet), we don't have much frame data yet, I know two people who are doing event/tournament data collecting but not so-ready yet (@Overswarm).

As time goes on we'll need a directory thread.
 
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Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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Jan 11, 2008
Messages
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I know this will be MUCH more controversial, hard to pull off, and more for AZ than the general mods, but I would consider restricting posting privileges in the general competitive subforum (not the character boards); obviously, everyone could view threads. The logic is that we're doing, among other things, serious ruleset discussion and discussion considering the general health and direction of all of competitive Smash. Personally, I think people who want to say something (or have something good to say) should be the people with skin in the game, not just anyone off the street who has an opinion on any given topic. That being said, "skin in the game" should be relatively easy to get. Either make it premium only (thus making the posters people who actively support competitive Smash), premium + a special 'pay what you want' subscription (at least 1$), either of those models + people who enter / register at officially sponsored local / regional / national events (at least once per period, like 1 / year or 1 / quarter), etc.

Basically, if you're going to get a vote (by voice) in how competitive Smash is played and run, you should be someone who is either directly impacted (someone who plays, and thus has money on the line), someone who runs events, or someone who actively supports the growth of both SWF and competitive Smash, in general.

That being said, the only people actually DECIDING things should be TOs.
 

TimeSmash

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The General Mechanisms Q and A board is great, but its OP should have a list of things discovered so far, or a separate thread should be made regarding all the ATs found thus far. If a separate thread were made, it wouldn't really be to ask questions about mechaisms and stuff (the other thread would fulfill that purpose) but rather to store and be updated to serve as a general glossary as to what each term is, as well as providing links to threads pertaining to that info. The Melee boards are a semi-good example of this.

I know this will be MUCH more controversial, hard to pull off, and more for AZ than the general mods, but I would consider restricting posting privileges in the general competitive subforum (not the character boards); obviously, everyone could view threads. The logic is that we're doing, among other things, serious ruleset discussion and discussion considering the general health and direction of all of competitive Smash. Personally, I think people who want to say something (or have something good to say) should be the people with skin in the game, not just anyone off the street who has an opinion on any given topic. That being said, "skin in the game" should be relatively easy to get. Either make it premium only (thus making the posters people who actively support competitive Smash), premium + a special 'pay what you want' subscription (at least 1$), either of those models + people who enter / register at officially sponsored local / regional / national events (at least once per period, like 1 / year or 1 / quarter), etc.

Basically, if you're going to get a vote (by voice) in how competitive Smash is played and run, you should be someone who is either directly impacted (someone who plays, and thus has money on the line), someone who runs events, or someone who actively supports the growth of both SWF and competitive Smash, in general.

That being said, the only people actually DECIDING things should be TOs.
This is an interesting idea, but creates a holier-than-thou feel for those not involved or willing to pay for Premium. Although Premium is very inexpensive, this idea creates a bit of a monetary divide wouldn't you say? I can understand from a Darwinism viewpoint where "well if they can't pay, they have no say" but in turn you're discouraging as well as blocking people with incredibly valuable opinions who are not willing and/or not able to pay the price for Premium. While I see what the point of your argument is, you create a sort of "lesser backroom" in this way, where a lot of people have no say in how the game is being developed or being played.

As for the infinite AT threads that keep popping up, by all means keep the hammer on that crap strong. No one wants to sift through a whole page of "NEW OMEGA AT" that could be discussed in one place. I mean, obviously when you lock it inform them that such a thread exists for that discussion, but by all means lock as necessary. There are some cases where an AT may be worthy of its own topic, such as the whole vectoring thing, but I guess worth would be described as to how much it affects the metagame.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Location
Seattle, WA
This is an interesting idea, but creates a holier-than-thou feel for those not involved or willing to pay for Premium. Although Premium is very inexpensive, this idea creates a bit of a monetary divide wouldn't you say? I can understand from a Darwinism viewpoint where "well if they can't pay, they have no say" but in turn you're discouraging as well as blocking people with incredibly valuable opinions who are not willing and/or not able to pay the price for Premium. While I see what the point of your argument is, you create a sort of "lesser backroom" in this way, where a lot of people have no say in how the game is being developed or being played.
Yeah, that's why I included the (much more complicated) option to include people who register at events and actually play, since those people have probably paid at least once for entry and those people obviously have skin in the game, and also to keep the character boards freely open, since most non-meta discussion is character based. That way, if someone not registered for the gen board has good info, they can post it in the character boards, and if it's applicable to the game in general, someone else will post it there (this will also help keep trash threads out of gen competitive, too).

I don't actually expect this to ever happen, but I feel confident it'd make at least this board better, in the long run.
 

TimeSmash

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Yeah, that's why I included the (much more complicated) option to include people who register at events and actually play, since those people have probably paid at least once for entry and those people obviously have skin in the game, and also to keep the character boards freely open, since most non-meta discussion is character based. That way, if someone not registered for the gen board has good info, they can post it in the character boards, and if it's applicable to the game in general, someone else will post it there (this will also help keep trash threads out of gen competitive, too).

I don't actually expect this to ever happen, but I feel confident it'd make at least this board better, in the long run.
Oh egg on my face then, I must have misread. I hate to keep introducing hypotheticals, but what if you're a student or something and don't have the time to go to tournaments monthly? Putting your education or whatever priorities you have first shouldn't bar you from posting. Although, the latter part of your post does help to rectify most of this situation since we're seeing a trend recently where "Oh this character can do this!" "Oh this one can do it too!" "All of them can do it!" or "Only Peach Link and Toon Linkcan do this." Just a thought though.

I agree with you in terms of filtering stuff though. People making aimless complaints or starting threads that have either already been discussed or are in discussion gets old, quick. Like just look through the first couple pages in the forum, the mods will thank you. That isn't to say though, I discredit the many people who acknowledge their thread to be closed if that arises
 
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