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I understand why you would feel this way, but this attitude is a big reason why the Melee community gets a bad rap, especially among fans of other Smash games. There's nothing wrong with liking Melee and wanting future Smash games to have elements from it that you like, but comments like this give the impression that the Melee community is inflexible, stuck in the past, and opposed to change, even though none of those are really true. The Melee community might have different ideas about how they want Smash to change, but they're not necessarily opposed to change per se.
I understand why you would feel this way, but this attitude is a big reason why the Melee community gets a bad rap, especially among fans of other Smash games. There's nothing wrong with liking Melee and wanting future Smash games to have elements from it that you like, but comments like this give the impression that the Melee community is inflexible, stuck in the past, and opposed to change, even though none of those are really true. The Melee community might have different ideas about how they want Smash to change, but they're not necessarily opposed to change per se.
I'm not inflexible, i just like melee so much, but i'm ok with these landing lag, i'm open to custom moves in competitive and open to other changes as long as it's fair for every single character
But like with this thread, don't take my opinion personal or seriously
I'd say there is a larger spread of landing lag between moves and characters. It appears that the closer a move is to one of the two extremes, the more landing lag is either cut or extended.
I wouldn't say it's new approach for trying to balance Smash, but it is a more exaggerated attempt. I'm a bit skeptical naturally, but there are those more sure of it.
I'm not inflexible, i just like melee so much, but i'm ok with these landing lag, i'm open to custom moves in competitive and open to other changes as long as it's fair for every single character
But like with this thread, don't take my opinion personal or seriously
I never said you were inflexible or anything like that. It's just that your post just happened to fall directly into one of the more prominent stereotypes about Melee fans, and it's unfortunately all too common for a few innocuous posts like yours to quickly degenerate into the below video, only with Melee vs. Brawl instead of sports teams.
Good thread, though I suspect my praise means little. A few comments:
You can check the fps of a video using a media player or video editor.
SDCC smash footage was pretty much recorded in 60 fps on twitch. I say pretty much because I've seen frames drops during my analysis.
If you want to download them, the video files are about 800MB for just under 30 minutes each.
Finally, I think the results can be refined a little. What I've seen is people finding the video frame that landing lag is interrupted and doubling this to guess the frame where landing lag is interrupted. Assuming the videos are 30fps, I think you can accurately find a range of frames in which the interruption could occur. I suggest that if a character stands on say video frame 3, the character could stand on frame 6 as guessed before but also frames 4 and 5. In general, I think all the interruption frames and IASA's, that I remember reading, could have occurred up to two frames earlier. With more landing lag samples, I also think the actual interruption frame in some cases can be exactly determined and the IASA frame guessed with a good degree of confidence.
Then again, two frames depending on perspective and overall landing lag is negligible. I still think (hope?) my other thoughts would be useful to some. Anyway the explanation below explains my reasoning. [forgive me if it's wrong]
pose = a position a character takes in an image at some frame
action = a series of poses
The above is a timeline. Each circle represents a time/frame where a pose is generated. The curve represents how the video records images; a curve touching a circle means that image was recorded. I'll call the recorded images/poses - video images/poses and the corresponding frames, video frames.
If an image is recorded every other frame i.e. 30 fps, the two curves represent the only two distinct ways images are recorded. You could say either every odd image or even image is recorded. Say, the first pose of an action starts at point A. The red curve represents the possibility that the first video pose of landing lag is the first pose of landing lag . The blue curve represents the possibility that the first video pose of landing lag is the second pose, shown by point B. We don't know which of the two curves was used so we don't know if the second or first pose was recorded. In other words, the start of an action found, for 30 fps videos, can be the first or second pose of an action.
[oh yeah, 1 and 2 represent the second to last frame and last frame of an action.]
Say a move's landing lag starts on video frame 1 and is interrupted on video frame 3. Say video frame 1, is frame 1 of landing lag so frame 5, where the interruption occurs, occurs on video frame 3. [30 fps video so count in twos]. The rule means the following, video frame 1 could have been captured first pose or second pose of landing lag. So, landing lag could have started on frame 1 or frame 0. The same is true for the interruption so the interruption could occur on frame 5 or 4. So the latest interruption frame is frame 6 by counting from 1 on frame 0 to frame 5. The earliest interruption is frame 4 counting from one on frame 1 to frame 4. And if we count from frames 0 to 4 or frames 1 to 5, the interruption frame may occur on frame 5. So, the interruption could occur on frames 4-6 if counting from the actual start of the action.
A shortcut to getting this range is the following. Basically do what many of you have done before. In detail, count in ones from the first landing lag video frame to the interruption video frame where standing begins, a new move begins and so on. Double what you counted to in order to get the latest frame where interruption can occur if counting from one on first actual frame of landing lag. Then take two from the value to find the earliest frame where interruption can occur - counting from one on the first actual frame of landing lag.
If you combine each curve together, isn't every frame recorded of an action? If you find recordings starting from first and second pose, you can find the exact frame a character stands. In the case of interruptions in general, this doesn't apply because move interruption can be player dependent. The start of when landing lag can be interrupted, its IASA, does occur at a set point. Generally, it's not absolutely certain if landing lag has been interrupted on the IASA frame or not. But when landing lag is interrupted on a frame, we can say the landing lag IASA occurs at that frame or earlier than that frame.
I could explain how I guess if a move or lag has arguably been interrupted on the IASA, if necessary. There's also some shortcuts to finding the exact frame if you have two distinct video recordings.
I never said you were inflexible or anything like that. It's just that your post just happened to fall directly into one of the more prominent stereotypes about Melee fans, and it's unfortunately all too common for a few innocuous posts like yours to quickly degenerate into the below video, only with Melee vs. Brawl instead of sports teams.
I didn't understand all your message cause... i don't speak English very well .-. but i also didn't said and didn't take it like you were refering to me, you said people,
i tryed to say that im not one of them, and we where talking about lag (being in the current thread) i just said i like melee, you said that most of the people that like melee where close to changes, i said i'm open to changes, then you said that you where not talking to me, stereotypes of melee fans and a video that i can't see right now and just because i said i like melee...and i don't know where to go from here
I also don't know is this is a fight, if i offended you in a way am sorry .-.
I love how everyone uses Melee as the prime source for weither a Smash Bros. game is "Good" or not.
Seriously, basically 90% of 'Muricans/UK'ers use Project M nowadays (me being one of the other 10% simply because I have no SD Card-compatible Computer) instead of Brawl, and all say the Melee is the "Best" game.
I love Melee, but I always wondered why people suggest that.
The reasons why Melee data was used in this thread is as follows:
1) The game has been out for more than a decade, and is still the most popular tournament standard for playing Smash Bros to date.
2) In that period of time, the metagame for Melee has continued to evolve and stabilize into something that is really comprehensive at a tournament level. People know what does, and doesn't work at a competitive level in regards to Melee.
3) The frame data for Melee has been known for years, and has been organized very neatly to allow for easy access and understanding. Each and every move has been practiced over, and over again to where they have become second-nature to competitive players.
4) The focus of how Melee plays is how most competitive players want the next Smash game to be. A balance of both offense, and defense (while slightly favoring offense); where as Brawl was far too defensive for many of their tastes.
5) Melee is an official game, and is probably not going to be remade or re-released. The frame data in Project M is always subject to change, based on what the PMBR decides for future released. But Melee? Melee's data is pretty much set in stone.
These above reasons I have presented are not being used to argue that Melee is a better game. What makes a "good" Smash game is a matter of preference. If you like Melee? You like Melee. If you like Brawl? You like Brawl. However, what the above reasons do entail is something of a different matter. In regards to frame data, especially for competitive play, Melee is the most accurate source to use as a basis for comparison and collecting data. When it comes to competitive Smash Bros, Melee has been played the longest, and is the most understood. This is why Melee is the prime source as a basis for comparison to Smash 4, to yield the most accurate data possible to be used for Smash 4.
However, I would like to remind everyone that this is not a topic to discuss how "good" Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, or etc is. The former three can be used as sources for collecting data in regards to Smash 4, but nothing more should be really discussed about them. The premise of this topic is to collect data for Smash 4 only. So again, I request that opinions in this topic to please be kept to a minimum. This topic is meant to help players understand what they are to expect in regards to Smash 4, and the possibilities of how Smash 4's aerials will be used competitively. Thank you in advanced for understanding.
Also, because PM is a modded game, it will not be an accurate source for collecting data. So, despite me loving it too, please do not discuss it here. Only Smash games that have been officially been made by Nintendo can be used as sources for data.
@ibmutt: I have seen your posts before in regards to discussing frame data for Bower. And they seemed to be very insightful and educated theories. So I am really appreciative for what you have posted, as it could be used to help further advance this topic. I shall definitely check out what you have said when I have time.
It would be great to see some examples of shield knockback and shield hitstun with Smash 4's landing lag heavy aerial attacks too. If notably present, it would factor into the balance and cut down on free shield grabs and out of shield punishes.
I imagine many here are used to Brawl's engine where powershields can really trump this sort of thing, so here's a great example of how heavier aerial shield pressure and spacing can add some strategy and benefit these moves. Still highly punishable, especially if you fail to connect or space poorly, but shielding is not a given counter.
This doesn't make any sense... The success of one game has nothing to do with another. I mean... if we went that route we would never discover anything new. Tetris is the best selling game ever... lets make every game like tetris! Amazing titles like Mario galaxy or GoldenEye, League of Legends, MineCraft, etc. etc. would have never come about if the goal was to repeat what was already done before.
Fighting games have not been growing much in popularity because they don't step out of the box they create. When you stay stagnant you don't grow, and that's why the sales for each new street fighter 4 continue to drop. (thought street fighter 4 still has way larger tournaments than us :/)
Or hey better yet... lets stick to smash. Brawl sold almost twice as many copies as melee, does that mean that brawl did it all right? The competitive community globally represents what... maybe 1% of the total number of people who purchased played the games. Clearly the more brawl like the game is the better it will sell.
I mean... its cool to spurt out ideas like that, but it just isn't how games should be made in my opinion. It creates a stagnant community that as gaming history has shown does not grow.
If you want to see comparative Brawl frame data, go for it. As ItsRainingGravy pointed out though, it's not standardized, complete, or as tested for accuracy. I don't blame him at all for not bothering with it, that's a big and complex undertaking ontop of everything he's contributed already. So again, I suggest you or someone else put in the effort instead of derailing this thread to argue about game sales.
If you want to see comparative Brawl frame data, go for it. As ItsRainingGravy pointed out though, it's not standardized, complete, or as tested for accuracy. I don't blame him at all for not bothering with it, that's a big and complex undertaking ontop of everything he's contributed already. So again, I suggest you or someone else put in the effort instead of derailing this thread to argue about game sales.
That directory is out of date. For example here is the Wolf frame data thread listed in the directory and this is the new one. If you do a quick check through each character's subforums, you can generally find the newest frame data thread, as I did for Luigi, Link and Toon Link. It also helps to look in character FAQ threads; they may have a link to the best frame data thread if you cannot see it anywhere.
But I agree anyway.
--------------------------------------------
Edit to avoid double posting: I cleaned up the Toon Link GIFs and data with some footage from the SDCC tournament. It's much easier to tell when the landing lag ends when the video quality is good (no hate on VGBC though, I love those guys and everything they do for us. I can't express my gratitude for their moveset videos enough). Like last time, the roll spam helped. Also my brain hurts from watching all of those down airs like oh my god
http://www.gfycat.com/TinyFrigidKouprey
Zelda
Neutral Air
The third Nair is the important one. It seems to have IASA on video frame 13, so the move has about 24-26 frames of lag or less. Slower than Melee. (18 frames/9 L-Canceled)
Laggy
http://www.gfycat.com/BlaringRectangularBlackfish
Zelda
Forward Air and Back Air
They are pretty much the same move anyways, lol. Anyways though, both appear to have around 12 video frames of landing lag, so about 22-24 frames of langing lag total. Slower than Melee. (18 frames/9 L-Canceled)
Laggy
http://www.gfycat.com/SociableFaithfulIntermediateegret
Zelda
Down Air
Now here's a very comprehensive look at a move! Nearly 13 full seconds of nothing but the player spamming down air for Zelda means that this should be VERY easy to test (I wish that every move was recorded this way lol). Well anyways though, is this rare treat in regards to data live up to the hype? Kind of. The good part about this move is that it can auto-cancel super early, allowing a player to use it at the peak of a short hop and suffer virtually no landing lag (4 frames). However if it is done too close to the ground, it is still pretty laggy. There are only two instances where this happens, so keep your eyes peeled for them. If improperly timed, this move seems to suffer around 24 frames of lag, which perfectly matches Melee's lag for the move. On the plus side, that ground bounce can set up for combos! (24 frames/12 L-Canceled)
Laggy
[/collapse]
Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Zelda
Neutral Air: 24-26 vs 18. Melee is faster.
Forward Air: 22-24 vs 18. Melee is faster.
Back Air: 22-24 vs 18. Melee is faster.
Down Air: 24 vs 24. Around the same.
Up Air: ??? vs 25. [Inconclusive data]
Welp, Zelda was relatively simple. It seems as though all of her moves besides Down Air got a slight speed decrease. Still need to figure out about Up Air, though I have noticed a trend in regards to moves thus far. Outside of a select few moves, most aerials that are slower in comparison to Melee are generally around 4-8 frames slower in Smash 4. Beyond that, and Zelda's Dair, nothing really interesting here. *shrugs*
By the way, I have updated the second post of this topic. It will now be listing what characters/moves have been done thus far in this topic, to keep everyone on track with this topic's progress.
http://www.gfycat.com/TinyFrigidKouprey
Zelda
Neutral Air
The third Nair is the important one. It seems to have IASA on video frame 13, so the move has about 24-26 frames of lag or less. Slower than Melee. (18 frames/9 L-Canceled)
Laggy
http://www.gfycat.com/BlaringRectangularBlackfish
Zelda
Forward Air and Back Air
They are pretty much the same move anyways, lol. Anyways though, both appear to have around 12 video frames of landing lag, so about 22-24 frames of langing lag total. Slower than Melee. (18 frames/9 L-Canceled)
Laggy
http://www.gfycat.com/SociableFaithfulIntermediateegret
Zelda
Down Air
Now here's a very comprehensive look at a move! Nearly 13 full seconds of nothing but the player spamming down air for Zelda means that this should be VERY easy to test (I wish that every move was recorded this way lol). Well anyways though, is this rare treat in regards to data live up to the hype? Kind of. The good part about this move is that it can auto-cancel super early, allowing a player to use it at the peak of a short hop and suffer virtually no landing lag (4 frames). However if it is done too close to the ground, it is still pretty laggy. There are only two instances where this happens, so keep your eyes peeled for them. If improperly timed, this move seems to suffer around 24 frames of lag, which perfectly matches Melee's lag for the move. On the plus side, that ground bounce can set up for combos! (24 frames/12 L-Canceled)
Laggy
[/collapse]
Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Zelda
Neutral Air: 24-26 vs 18. Melee is faster.
Forward Air: 22-24 vs 18. Melee is faster.
Back Air: 22-24 vs 18. Melee is faster.
Down Air: 24 vs 24. Around the same.
Up Air: ??? vs 25. [Inconclusive data]
Welp, Zelda was relatively simple. It seems as though all of her moves besides Down Air got a slight speed decrease. Still need to figure out about Up Air, though I have noticed a trend in regards to moves thus far. Outside of a select few moves, most aerials that are slower in comparison to Melee are generally around 4-8 frames slower in Smash 4. Beyond that, and Zelda's Dair, nothing really interesting here. *shrugs*
By the way, I have updated the second post of this topic. It will now be listing what characters/moves have been done thus far in this topic, to keep everyone on track with this topic's progress.
Thanks so much! Zelda be my girl. At least she was uh, simple. I'm probably gonna go compare these to Brawl Zelda now as well, but I expect they'll be pretty similar.
I know this is not completely on topic. but to prevent certain misunderstandings. i feel a need to point out that smash 4 will be a slower paced game than melee so 14 frames on a move could be more equivalent to 10-12 in melee. If people understand what i mean.
I know this is not completely on topic. but to prevent certain misunderstandings. i feel a need to point out that smash 4 will be a slower paced game than melee so 14 frames on a move could be more equivalent to 10-12 in melee. If people understand what i mean.
Not necessarily so. While most of the cast might have more frames in comparison to Melee (as well as lower gravity and speed), and that will definitely make it feel like a slower paced game, lower hitstun and movement speed isn't going to make a 14 frame move in Smash 4 like a 10-12 move in Melee. Because it won't have the same applications available that might have been in Melee. Slower landing lag on average will create the illusion that this is true, but it won't be. Unfortunately, this will probably even affect characters with really fast landing lag such as Sheik, too. Even so, I still remain very hopeful for Smash 4. It will have its own engine, and feel to it. And I am fine with that.
I know this is not completely on topic. but to prevent certain misunderstandings. i feel a need to point out that smash 4 will be a slower paced game than melee so 14 frames on a move could be more equivalent to 10-12 in melee. If people understand what i mean.
Well duh. If someone actually thought Smash 4 would be as fast as, let alone faster than, Melee they're crazy. Sakurai DID emphasise that the game's speed would match neither Brawl nor Melee, but instead be between the two.
--------------------------
I felt like we've been neglecting the newcomers so far. So here's my next set of findings. Friendly neighbour by day, psychopath by night, it's the Killager!
http://gfycat.com/CrispSelfreliantAiredale
Villager
Up Aerial
Right from the moment I laid eyes on this thing I knew it'd be an integral piece of the Villager's close-combat kit. Lightning fast startup, good juggling abilities, some disjoint, KO power if you're lucky... And apparently it isn't too laggy either! 16 frames.
Some lag
http://gfycat.com/LimpBitesizedIndigowingedparrot
Villager
Forward Aerial
Looks to have 20-22 frames of landing lag. Thankfully it seems to autocancel easily (much to my dismay. It was hard to find good footage of the Villager NOT autocancelling this move).
Laggy
http://gfycat.com/SadRectangularElkhound
Villager
Neutral Aerial
12-14 frames of landing lag. One frame has the Villager in it twice, both leaning over and standing up so it was hard to pinpoint the landing lag here. I'm guessing 13, call it a hunch.
Little to no lag/Some lag
http://gfycat.com/BogusWarmAustralianshelduck
Villager
Back Aerial
20-22 frames of landing lag. Expecting it to have the same as forward aerial since they're basically the same move visually.
Laggy
http://gfycat.com/JealousMildAfricanparadiseflycatcher
Villager
Down Special (Phase 2)
This either has 8 frames of landing lag, or it only autocancels a la Sheik's needles. If it's the latter then the lowest the landing lag will get is 4. It doesn't do damage but it's clearly spammable so it can't be 100% useless, especially with that tiny landing lag. Could make for a good edgeguard against certain characters.
Little to no lag/Virtually lagless
http://gfycat.com/DistantThoughtfulBlackrhino
Villager
Down Special (Phase 3)
Same deal with Phase 2. Either 8 frames, or autocancels. Never thought the Axe could be used to potentially start pressuring someone's shield lulz.
Little to no lag/Virtually lagless
Villager's landing lag is a mixed bag. Some of his aerials have low landing lag (like Dair) whilst others are quite laggy (like Fair and Bair). I threw in data for the Watering Can and Axe as well, just for kicks.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and to make Dair even better, it looks like it hits on frame 3. Dayuuuuuuum.
Not necessarily so. While most of the cast might have more frames in comparison to Melee (as well as lower gravity and speed), and that will definitely make it feel like a slower paced game, lower hitstun and movement speed isn't going to make a 14 frame move in Smash 4 like a 10-12 move in Melee. Because it won't have the same applications available that might have been in Melee. Slower landing lag on average will create the illusion that this is true, but it won't be. Unfortunately, this will probably even affect characters with really fast landing lag such as Sheik, too. Even so, I still remain very hopeful for Smash 4. It will have its own engine, and feel to it. And I am fine with that.
As a Roy main in PM, I can tell you now that a few frames can make a big difference. I mess up combos all the time (including the Dair -> Bair bread and butter finisher) because I don't jump fast enough, which my buddy points out to me every single time. "You could have got that", "you were just too slow", etc. I predict that Sheik will have combos that require forward aerial solely because of its low landing lag.
Landing lag affects more than just the ability to pressure a shield. I have always had the view that grabs are actually the most powerful thing in Smash Bros (excluding Smash 64) and since the first two fighting games I played seriously gave huge reward to grabs I'm perfectly okay with it. The only problem is that it ruins the potential for an RPS system, if that is what you desire anyway. Shield > Attack, Grab > Shield, Grab > Attack
But yeah, who cares about the power of shields when you can just grab through everything? Smash 4 also appears to have grab combos (before you refute this point, watch VGBC's Luigi moveset video. If you're still not convinced, then sure go ahead) so the reward is certainly there, rather than the situation returning to neutral.
As a Roy main in PM, I can tell you now that a few frames can make a big difference. I mess up combos all the time (including the Dair -> Bair bread and butter finisher) because I don't jump fast enough, which my buddy points out to me every single time. "You could have got that", "you were just too slow", etc. I predict that Sheik will have combos that require forward aerial solely because of its low landing lag.
Landing lag affects more than just the ability to pressure a shield. I have always had the view that grabs are actually the most powerful thing in Smash Bros (excluding Smash 64) and since the first two fighting games I played seriously gave huge reward to grabs I'm perfectly okay with it. The only problem is that it ruins the potential for an RPS system, if that is what you desire anyway. Shield > Attack, Grab > Shield, Grab > Attack
But yeah, who cares about the power of shields when you can just grab through everything? Smash 4 also appears to have grab combos (before you refute this point, watch VGBC's Luigi moveset video. If you're still not convinced, then sure go ahead) so the reward is certainly there, rather than the situation returning to neutral.
lol trust me i agree with everything you said. and believe as well.
well maybe not everything. since hitstun works differently in this game.
there was video proof of pikachu's b air? leading to his up tilt despite significant landing lag. (like still in combo though he could not get out of it)
Hitstun in this game is based on your damage percentage, so I've read. Apparently the amount of hitstun you suffer goes up incrementally for every 10% damage you've taken. So mostly, landing lag is just an issue of safe approaches, as well as a balance tool for the developers to decide what can combo into what other things. After all, if hitstun vs. landing lag isn't given proper consideration, you could end up with 0-death combos, which the developers probably do not want in order to appeal to a more casual audience and help lower the skill floor for semi-competitive-level play.
Hitstun in this game is based on your damage percentage, so I've read. Apparently the amount of hitstun you suffer goes up incrementally for every 10% damage you've taken. So mostly, landing lag is just an issue of safe approaches, as well as a balance tool for the developers to decide what can combo into what other things. After all, if hitstun vs. landing lag isn't given proper consideration, you could end up with 0-death combos, which the developers probably do not want in order to appeal to a more casual audience and help lower the skill floor for semi-competitive-level play.
Could you link me to where you read this? Because this sounds very strange. It's such a huge departure from the old formula and sounds like the sort of thing that someone would need to actually have the game in order to figure out. I can't imagine this being the case if someone theorised this from playing the demo.
Could you link me to where you read this? Because this sounds very strange. It's such a huge departure from the old formula and sounds like the sort of thing that someone would need to actually have the game in order to figure out. I can't imagine this being the case if someone theorised this from playing the demo.
Thank you to BanetheKira for making the Gfycats here!
I had been watching some of the leaked gameplay and, well, definitely seems better to me. Knockback does not look quite as random and all over the place, and there even seems to be not quite as much landing lag? It could either be a greater amount of interruptible frames, or easier autocancels, but it doesn't look as clunky as earlier builds imo. Mind you, there are still parts where, say, Bowser will do an aerial very, very close to the ground, and he will lag, but those make sense. Same with his down air. That is a stall then fall, powerful move. Anyways, here I will point out some specific observations I have made.
0:20: Bowser Jr. does a spinning boxing glove attack, probably nair, lands on the ground and almost immediately does a tongue attack, maybe ftilt or dtilt.http://www.gfycat.com/TerribleGiftedEmperorshrimp
1:05 Shulk does a downward sword swipe, maybe dair or nair, and then quickly dashes out of it. It looked odd, almost like an L-cancel, but it was probably just interruptible frames or something.http://www.gfycat.com/DependentIncomparableAmbushbug
There's also this one part at 1:23 where Charizard jumps but I can't tell if he did a bair, or if he just got hit and then ran away, but he acts out of it quickly.http://www.gfycat.com/YellowIdealFlamingo
That's all I could find, but maybe you guys can find more? Hopefully I am right and Sakurai did do something about it.
EDIT: I know the Shulk footage is from a Smash Run battle but I do not think any boosts help your landing lag haha
Interesting but I'm half worried that the Leak footage was Smash Run footage so it doesn't accurately display what the characters can do besides what the moves look like generally.
Interesting but I'm half worried that the Leak footage was Smash Run footage so it doesn't accurately display what the characters can do besides what the moves look like generally.
I think I read it somewhere on reddit or something. People pointed out that some of the gameplay is indeed smash run, mostly due to one clip of lucina running being abnormally fast for any regular smash character. It was faster than melee and seemed kinda odd considering it was about as fast if not faster than sonic. They proved it with some similarities with the menus of earlier smash run footage and the current leak footage.
I think I read it somewhere on reddit or something. People pointed out that some of the gameplay is indeed smash run, mostly due to one clip of lucina running being abnormally fast for any regular smash character. It was faster than melee and seemed kinda odd considering it was about as fast if not faster than sonic. They proved it with some similarities with the menus of earlier smash run footage and the current leak footage.
Judging by Ganon's running speed in one of the clips, it definitely appears to be smash run. Even though a lot of the power ups speed up your characters physical movement, I don't believe they increase the speed of the attacks. I still believe that the landing lag from attacks remains the same despite any increases in stats.
Lucina being able to U-tilt right after that Fair was very impressive.
I thought that was Lucina's legit running speed til I was told it as smash run. lel.
Still her moves seem pretty fast.
Ganon...tbh the only real difference I am seeing is that is Ftilt has a lot less lag than it is did in Brawl, at least it appeared to end faster than what I recall of that move.
Also you can't cancel hitstun to hit him after he UpB's you, thank god.
Just did a runthrough. Forgive me for any inaccuracies and ambiguity, the footage is so blurry and certain frames are repeated.
This is so hard to see. UGH THE BLUR. Anyway, I'd say it has at least 20 frames of lag. There is a very noticeable amount of time where he hasn't put the gloves away, despite the crappy footage quality.
For the second clip, it's hard to see past Shulk's sword but I'm confident that Lucina's Fair was autocancelled (or had just ended). It looks like she finishes the lag after 2 in-video frames (4 "real" frames) and the animation of said Fair where she actually swings her sword downwards was over before she landed too. I can't say with certainty but that's what everything points to.
Shulk's attack appears to have 10-12 frames of landing lag. Pretty good.
That looks like an airdodge to me which is interesting, because there have been multiple people attesting to landing whilst doing an airdodge causing significant lag. Zard only looks to lag for about 10 or 12.
Everything looks pretty normal to me. Maybe I'm just in denial about the possibility of reduced landing lag but my analysis tells me that this is nothing to get hyped about.
Just did a runthrough. Forgive me for any inaccuracies and ambiguity, the footage is so blurry and certain frames are repeated.
This is so hard to see. UGH THE BLUR. Anyway, I'd say it has at least 20 frames of lag. There is a very noticeable amount of time where he hasn't put the gloves away, despite the crappy footage quality.
For the second clip, it's hard to see past Shulk's sword but I'm confident that Lucina's Fair was autocancelled. It looks like she ends the lag after 2 in-video frames (4 "real" frames) and the animation of said Fair where she actually swings her sword downwards was over before she landed too. I can't say with certainty but that's what everything points to.
Shulk's attack appears to have 10-12 frames of landing lag. Pretty good.
That looks like an airdodge to me which is interesting, because there have been multiple people attesting to landing whilst doing an airdodge causing significant lag. Zard only looks to lag for about 10 or 12.
Everything looks pretty normal to me. Maybe I'm just in denial about the possibility of reduced landing lag but my analysis tells me that this is nothing to get hyped about.
In general it is hard to draw much conclusive data from those videos due to the abysmal quality of them. Hard to argue either side that landing lag is definitely the same or shorter. All we can really see is that so and so characters are confirmed.
In general it is hard to draw much conclusive data from those videos due to the abysmal quality of them. Hard to argue either side that landing lag is definitely the same or shorter. All we can really see is that so and so characters are confirmed.
Judging by Ganon's running speed in one of the clips, it definitely appears to be smash run. Even though a lot of the power ups speed up your characters physical movement, I don't believe they increase the speed of the attacks. I still believe that the landing lag from attacks remains the same despite any increases in stats.
Lucina being able to U-tilt right after that Fair was very impressive.
Was that really a Fair or just her reflect? I was wondering because there was a freeze effect before she hit shulk and a little glint behind her hilt...
Was that really a Fair or just her reflect? I was wondering because there was a freeze effect before she hit shulk and a little glint behind her hilt...
If by reflect you mean counter? Then no, it wasn't. That freeze was a freeze frame; they're abundant in this game. Just check out the last hit of Pikachu's Fair. Lol
In general it is hard to draw much conclusive data from those videos due to the abysmal quality of them. Hard to argue either side that landing lag is definitely the same or shorter. All we can really see is that so and so characters are confirmed.
To the extent that we can tell anything about landing lag, it's that it hasn't magically become as low as L-cancelled Melee aerials across the board, and no one with realistic expectations believed that was going to happen. If we get any kind of lag reduction, it's probably going to be only for specific characters to balance things out. It's pretty clear that this game has been designed and balanced in such a way that some characters are going to be fast-paced and have a ton of combos, while others will have more modest combos, but have other strengths that compensate for this and give them a fighting chance.
Was that really a Fair or just her reflect? I was wondering because there was a freeze effect before she hit shulk and a little glint behind her hilt...
That confused me too with how long it was, but I think it was probably just a freeze frame. There's Nintendo Treehouse video footage of Link hitting a foe with the second hit of FAir in the Wii U demo and getting 7 video frames of hitlag. If that's 30 FPS video, then that's 13-15 frames in-game. If that's 24 FPS video, that's 16-19 frames in-game.
