Compendium of Landing Lag Information for Smash 4

[Rich Homie Quan]

It pains me to see marth like this :'(

Sheik tho

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Geez that forward aerial landing lag on Sheik is as low as an L-cancelled one in Melee? That's insane!

This time, I got some GIFs of the other incarnation of everyone's favourite hero. I haven't found a clip of Link landing with his Zair out that isn't cut off by the match ending (lol) so if someone knows where I can find one, please let me know.

Spoiler

Link
Up Aerial
Looks to have 18-20 frames of landing lag. It had 30 in both Melee and Brawl. So its landing lag has been cut down by about a third. Awesome!
Laggy

Link
Forward Aerial
12 frames of landing lag. Between Melee and Brawl.
Little to no lag

Link
Neutral Aerial
12 frames of landing lag I believe, which puts it between Melee and Brawl's Nairs.
Little to no lag

Link
Back Aerial
10 frames of landing lag. Same as Brawl.
Little to no lag

Link
Down Aerial
This move has been shown with different amounts of lag. The smallest we've got footage of at this point is 32 frames.
Very laggy

Link's aerial landing lag has been more balanced this time around compared to Brawl on the whole, with his laggier aerials sped up and his faster aerials slowed down. Back aerial still retains its low landing lag, however.

Uair: 18-20 (Sm4sh), 30 (Melee), 30 (Brawl)
Fair: 12 (Sm4sh), 15 (Melee), 10 (Brawl)
Nair: 12 (Sm4sh), 15 (Melee), 9 (Brawl)
Bair: 10 (Sm4sh), 15 (Melee), 10 (Brawl)
Dair: 32 (Sm4sh) 50 (Melee), 50 (Brawl)

SSBM Link frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/link-hitboxes-and-frame-data.306010/
SSBB Link frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-missing-link-frame-data.285276/

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Link's DAir has IASA frames, I think. Can't get a gif of it because it's 28 minutes of Treehouse footage (in other words, flippin' huge video file), but watch here: http://youtu.be/jd0Z8jQ__QQ?t=10m22s. Link rolls out of the endlag what looks (by the naked eye) to be significantly earlier than in the footage you used. In fact, he rolls as soon as he pulls his sword out of the ground, before returning to a neutral stance.

Link's BAir in the Direct footage there also appears to have non-cancellable endlag, which is clearly not true in Treehouse footage. See here: http://youtu.be/jd0Z8jQ__QQ?t=11m11s, and again at 11:14.

Link's FAir is seen to have IASA frames here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd0Z8jQ__QQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m17s

Unfortunately, since this is all Nintendo Treehouse footage, the filesize is effin' huge and I can't do anything to make a gif with it or shorten it. Trying to use a Youtube-to-video downloader and nothing seems to be able to open the resulting file. Will get back to you later if I manage to get results somehow.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Link's DAir has IASA frames, I think. Can't get a gif of it because it's 28 minutes of Treehouse footage (in other words, flippin' huge video file), but watch here: http://youtu.be/jd0Z8jQ__QQ?t=10m22s. Link rolls out of the endlag what looks (by the naked eye) to be significantly earlier than in the footage you used. In fact, he rolls as soon as he pulls his sword out of the ground, before returning to a neutral stance.

Link's BAir in the Direct footage there also appears to have non-cancellable endlag, which is clearly not true in Treehouse footage. See here: http://youtu.be/jd0Z8jQ__QQ?t=11m11s, and again at 11:14.

Link's FAir is seen to have IASA frames here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd0Z8jQ__QQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m17s

Unfortunately, since this is all Nintendo Treehouse footage, the filesize is effin' huge and I can't do anything to make a gif with it or shorten it. Trying to use a Youtube-to-video downloader and nothing seems to be able to open the resulting file. Will get back to you later if I manage to get results somehow.

I deliberately ignored interruption on the basis that it is incredibly hard to ascertain by simply analysing footage. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

If you want, I could GIF those clips for you.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I deliberately ignored interruption on the basis that it is incredibly hard to ascertain by simply analysing footage. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

If you want, I could GIF those clips for you.

Well, the reason I started looking for interruption is that you can't really base the overall effect of landing lag on just the animation if the animation can be interrupted significantly earlier, especially not once the 10-frame buffer comes into play. For example, it looks like Link's DAir endlag can be interrupted after 31-33 frames (16 frames in video). Unfortunately, I can't get the gif maker to cooperate. I'm trying to upload it in mp4 format and the gif maker is like "lolnope" and just stalls on "uploading video" forever.

Edit: It finally uploaded the video! But it doesn't matter 'cause I'm a free user who only gets to make 10-second gifs... Also, BAir landing lag seems to interrupt after 5 frames of video (that's 9-11 frames of landing lag, right?)

And on a semi-related note, both of Link's roll dodges are interruptable after 15 frames of video (29-31 frames in-game?).

Double Edit: Link's BAir landing animation actually interrupts after 3 frames of video. By comparison, Link's full jump consistently has 4 video frames of startup.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Imagine if Smash 64 styled L canceling was back :D

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Well, the reason I started looking for interruption is that you can't really base the overall effect of landing lag on just the animation if the animation can be interrupted significantly earlier, especially not once the 10-frame buffer comes into play. For example, it looks like Link's DAir endlag can be interrupted after 31-33 frames (16 frames in video). Unfortunately, I can't get the gif maker to cooperate. I'm trying to upload it in mp4 format and the gif maker is like "lolnope" and just stalls on "uploading video" forever.

Alright, I made another one using your footage, it looks more reliable I must say. Thanks for that, I'll update my post. Just because blah, here it is:

 

[Senario]

Geez that forward aerial landing lag on Sheik is as low as an L-cancelled one in Melee? That's insane!

Now the question is, is it as powerful as in melee? Does it do quite a bit of damage and launches forward and down?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Now the question is, is it as powerful as in melee? Does it do quite a bit of damage and launches forward and down?

IIRC it's a horizontal kill move.

Also, Link's FAir landing lag appears to be interruptable after 3 frames of video (5-7 frames in-game).

Google Drive link to gif because everything else is uncooperative: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx0wbBf5cddIcGhJT1V5YW9xVXc/edit?usp=sharing
Small Link uses FAir on an invincible Wii Fit Trainer and performs a back roll dodge after 3 video frames of landing lag.

Looks like Link's full jump has 7 frames of startup. Most of the time in the footage I watched, the jump had 4 video frames of startup, but just once I saw it take only 3 frames.

 

[Terotrous]

When did I say Mario/Smash 4 were garbage? I'm just a bit critical of 30 frames of landing lag no one can give a good reason for. You mention some moves are ok with significant landing lag so I have to ask, what is it about this specific move that calls for it? Feel free to continue talking about long landing lag in broad terms but keep in mind I'm here to discuss this particular case.

I don't claim to know the exact reason behind their balancing decisions, I'm just saying that low landing lag isn't an absolute prerequisite for a move to be useful.

Jamie is probably correct in that the reason it was slowed down is because of the new meteor mechanics, if you meteor someone into the ground with enough force they bounce upwards, allowing for a followup, which is a pretty big buff to all meteors, so that change may have been made to prevent if from being too strong.

 

[JV5Chris]

Jamie is probably correct in that the reason it was slowed down is because of the new meteor mechanics, if you meteor someone into the ground with enough force they bounce upwards, allowing for a followup, which is a pretty big buff to all meteors, so that change may have been made to prevent if from being too strong.

Depends I guess if you thought meteors were too strong in Melee:

When Meteor Canceling in Melee, the character will glow white, have sparkling effects, and make a wind-cutting sound. If a Meteor Smash connects with a grounded opponent instead, it sends them straight up via bouncing them off the ground.

As I mentioned earlier % factors into a followup being possible. Don't know if anything has changed with Smash 4, but I've never considered it to be a balance problem before.

 

[Terotrous]

Depends I guess if you thought meteors were too strong in Melee

They've changed since Melee, if you meteor an airborne opponent into the stage hard enough, they bounce back up, allowing a followup attack. In Melee you only got the bounce if they were on the ground.

 

[Senario]

They've changed since Melee, if you meteor an airborne opponent into the stage hard enough, they bounce back up, allowing a followup attack. In Melee you only got the bounce if they were on the ground.

Again this is not the place for these types of things. Take it to a different thread. This is for data or talking about the data not a debate on the justifications for landing lag.

Same goes to you JV5Chris. I would rather not lose this thread since it has been very informative.

 

[Terotrous]

Fine, fine, but it's not really like there's anyone else posting Frame Data right now, if we weren't having this discussion this thread would be on page 3 by now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I figured just by looking at the video Sheik's landing lag was ridiculously low, I didn't know her Fair was L-cancelled Melee good wowsa.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Should I replace the old one with this and change the frame data accordingly, or should I add this underneath to display the interrupt specifically? @ ItsRainingGravy

EDIT: I popped it in underneath for now. Will change if requested.

Sorry for the delay. IRL stuff keeping me busy. Anyways, the intentions of this topic is to post the minimum amount of landing lag frames that a character experiences (without being interrupted by an outside force/item/attack/etc) in order to show the potential for the move in regards to competitive play. This does mean that there might be a few errors to what we record as data initially. However, if new data warrants the replacement of old data, then the new data will just be listed instead. You can still keep the previous image as a reference for how long Link's entire landing lag animation lasts, though if there is video/gif proof that shows that the move can be canceled even faster due to IASA frames, then that is the video/image that will ultimately be selected as the data to be listed in this topic.

The above statement applies to all characters and moves that are to be listed in this topic. And again, this topic will (hopefully) still be active after the game is released. We are just collecting what information we can until then. But when the game actually releases, we can probably record much more efficient data at that point; especially if users help out by providing the topic with comprehensive moveset videos detailing each character's attacks (while hopefully also having good video quality suitable enough for recording data).

I shall double-check everything for Link, and add him to the list sometime soon. But first, I would like to do another character to keep this topic running. The next character is going to be a popular, yet underdog character in regards to Smash Bros. Will be posting this information either tonight or tomorrow depending on how busy I am.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Sorry for the delay. IRL stuff keeping me busy. Anyways, the intentions of this topic is to post the minimum amount of landing lag frames that a character experiences (without being interrupted by an outside force/item/attack/etc) in order to show the potential for the move in regards to competitive play. This does mean that there might be a few errors to what we record as data initially. However, if new data warrants the replacement of old data, then the new data will just be listed instead. You can still keep the previous image as a reference for how long Link's entire landing lag animation lasts, though if there is video/gif proof that shows that the move can be canceled even faster due to IASA frames, then that is the video/image that will ultimately be selected as the data to be listed in this topic.

The above statement applies to all characters and moves that are to be listed in this topic. And again, this topic will (hopefully) still be active after the game is released. We are just collecting what information we can until then. But when the game actually releases, we can probably record much more efficient data at that point; especially if users help out by providing the topic with comprehensive moveset videos detailing each character's attacks (while hopefully also having good video quality suitable enough for recording data).

I shall double-check everything for Link, and add him to the list sometime soon. But first, I would like to do another character to keep this topic running. The next character is going to be a popular, yet underdog character in regards to Smash Bros. Will be posting this information either tonight or tomorrow depending on how busy I am.

Please tell me it's Zelda. Is it Zelda?

I kid, but I think you're doing some awesome work here. Very excited to see everyone as they come to light!

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Sorry for the delay. IRL stuff keeping me busy. Anyways, the intentions of this topic is to post the minimum amount of landing lag frames that a character experiences (without being interrupted by an outside force/item/attack/etc) in order to show the potential for the move in regards to competitive play. This does mean that there might be a few errors to what we record as data initially. However, if new data warrants the replacement of old data, then the new data will just be listed instead. You can still keep the previous image as a reference for how long Link's entire landing lag animation lasts, though if there is video/gif proof that shows that the move can be canceled even faster due to IASA frames, then that is the video/image that will ultimately be selected as the data to be listed in this topic.

The above statement applies to all characters and moves that are to be listed in this topic. And again, this topic will (hopefully) still be active after the game is released. We are just collecting what information we can until then. But when the game actually releases, we can probably record much more efficient data at that point; especially if users help out by providing the topic with comprehensive moveset videos detailing each character's attacks (while hopefully also having good video quality suitable enough for recording data).

I shall double-check everything for Link, and add him to the list sometime soon. But first, I would like to do another character to keep this topic running. The next character is going to be a popular, yet underdog character in regards to Smash Bros. Will be posting this information either tonight or tomorrow depending on how busy I am.

Alright got it. I'll go back and fix it when I can (I'll probably be leaving the house soon ). @ JamietheAuraUser provided me with some more clips than just the down aerial one so I've got a bit of work to do. I'll probably post again when I'm finished updating.

EDIT: Well that didn't take as long as I was expecting. Only 20 minutes or so lol. Anyway, it's all good. Jamie, the second clip of back aerial was definitely normal landing lag. So either it was autocancelled, or Link had already completed the move. You can see Link in lag for 2 "in video" frames (4 "real" frames) and then raise his body slightly (he doesn't actually stand up) and crouch again, which I'm confident is a jumpstart animation.

 

[JV5Chris]

You can still keep the previous image as a reference for how long Link's entire landing lag animation lasts, though if there is video/gif proof that shows that the move can be canceled even faster due to IASA frames, then that is the video/image that will ultimately be selected as the data to be listed in this topic.

Do we know for sure this treehouse footage was captured at 30fps? Also, if true, can anyone confirm Link's down air can be interrupted with anything? Just trying to cut down on the assumptions if they exist.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Alright got it. I'll go back and fix it when I can (I'll probably be leaving the house soon ). @ JamietheAuraUser provided me with some more clips than just the down aerial one so I've got a bit of work to do. I'll probably post again when I'm finished updating.

EDIT: Well that didn't take as long as I was expecting. Only 20 minutes or so lol. Anyway, it's all good. Jamie, the second clip of back aerial was definitely normal landing lag. So either it was autocancelled, or Link had already completed the move. You can see Link in lag for 2 "in video" frames (4 "real" frames) and then raise his body slightly (he doesn't actually stand up) and crouch again, which I'm confident is a jumpstart animation.

That's good to know regarding Link's BAir. Yeah, I noticed there were what looked like 4 "jump startup" frames. Thought the total was 7, though, so I guess I miscounted. XD

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Love him, or hate him, Pikachu is insanely popular. But outside of Smash 64, he has often been overlooked and overshadowed by a good portion of the cast in every other Smash game. Unfortunately, he lost his QAC shenanigans in this game, but will his landing lag help him out? Let's find out! (Did him next as a request for a friend of mine/sorry it isn't Zelda lol)

Also, I am going to be using gfycat from now on, to allow viewers to choose what speed they wish to view the move in question. It also runs a lot more smoothly, and it even doesn't mess up the "frame" data. Gfycat also bypasses the problem that @JamietheAuraUser ran into in regards to a video's length being too long to upload a gif image. For comparison purposes, I have done Pikachu's Nair using both imgflip.com and gfycat.com for you to personally compare the amount of "frames" each one has (to me it's the same amount). Unless the majority of you prefer for me to use imgflip, I will be using gfycat for recording data instead.

To slow the gfycat image down to a "frame by frame" amount, just keep mashing the minus button until you have reached the desired speed you wish to view the move.

[collapse=Pikachu's landing lag]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaFeIVfTqBg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_dcUCvV9n4



http://www.gfycat.com/ImpracticalWindingIrishsetter
Pikachu
Neutral Air
Varies depending on how you land with the move (?). Could last as little as 6-8 frames, though there is a slightly steep delay if you improperly time it. The third Nair that Pikachu performs shows this delay. He jabs during the IASA frames of the Nair landing lag, most likely as soon as the IASA frames begin because of how fast Pikachu's jab is. The slower landing lag for Nair seems to last approximately 26 frames, which is much slower than Melee. (15 frames/7 L-Canceled)
Laggy

http://www.gfycat.com/WetLeadingHerculesbeetle
Pikachu
Up Air
Really hard to tell if he suffered any landing lag or not while using his Up Air. The third time that Pikachu lands during his Up Air, he only lags on the ground for about 4 frames before going into his jump animation. However, he probably landed with his Up Air during the Auto Canceled frames of the move, so the data here is to be considered inconclusive for the time being. Still, it seems to be really fast, for now. (Melee has 26 frames/13 L-Canceled)
Virtually Lagless?

http://www.gfycat.com/SilverRaggedHapuka
http://www.gfycat.com/FlimsyInsistentBaleenwhale
http://www.gfycat.com/ThoughtfulDescriptiveEskimodog
Pikachu
Forward Air
Seems to lag for about 14-16 frames. Faster than Melee. (20 frames/10 L-Canceled)
Some Lag

http://www.gfycat.com/UnitedSpitefulArcticfox
http://www.gfycat.com/HonoredPracticalAstrangiacoral
Pikachu
Forward Air (again)
Two unusual instances where the move autocancels early. Until I get my hands on the game to test it myself, I will just count the above information instead. Could be like his Nair.

http://www.gfycat.com/SimplisticSpottedFoxhound
Pikachu
Down Air
Has an absurd amount of lag, like it always does. Seems to be anywhere from 40-50 frames of lag, most likely 44, as it appears to be slower than Melee. Which, is saying a lot. Only useful as a killing move. Otherwise, I doubt this thing would ever be useful. (40 frames/20 L-Canceled)
Extremely Laggy

http://www.gfycat.com/NegativeCaringChamois
Pikachu
Back Air
Another garbage move. Man, I REALLY miss his Bair from 64. Anyways though, seems to have almost exactly 40 frames of lag. Which is 10 frames slower than it was in Melee. (30 frames/15 L-Canceled)
Extremely Laggy
[/collapse]

Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Pikachu
Neutral Air: 6-8 or 26 vs 15. Melee wins overall.
Up Air: 4? vs 26. Smash 4 could be way faster? Inconclusive data.
Forward Air: 14-16 (or faster?) vs 20. Smash 4 is faster.
Down Air: 44 vs 40. Melee is faster.
Back Air: 40 vs 30. Melee is faster.

Hoo boy, this was a tough one to record. A lot of inconclusive and imprecise data here, so forgive me. Pikachu seems to have a lot of odd Auto Canceled frames, which is good. However without those Auto Canceled frames, most of his aerials lag for about half of a second to 2/3rds of a second. Which is terrible. Fair and Uair are his only saving graces here, and even then, both of them are questionable. Fair, because it does have a precise amount of frames in which it does lag, though it has the chance to possibly auto cancel out of that. Uair, because while it seems like his best aerial, I wasn't able to find good enough footage in which he uses Uair immediately before landing upon the ground. Overall though, because of the lack of L-Canceling in Smash 4, I think that Pikachu is going to end up suffering quite a bit when it comes to approaching opponents with his aerials.

If anyone would like to help me out in regards to Pikachu, let me know.

Reference for Pikachu's landing lag in Melee: http://smashboards.com/threads/pikachu-hitboxes-and-frame-data.320088/

Do we know for sure this treehouse footage was captured at 30fps?

Not sure. I have been meaning to look into this, though I do know that video footage from a youtube user named Beanman25jr might be slower than 30fps, since I tried to record data from one of his videos and it was a bit...jittery. So I didn't end up using any footage from him (he posted Treehouse footage btw). Video footage from VGBootCamp, however, all seems to be recorded at a stable 30fps.

 

[Venks]

Has anyone posted this yet? Samus's dAir looks pretty sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3LemQ-zUSw

 

[JUr]

Thanks a lot for all the info, great job!

Glad to see that Sheik is looking really good in this game, also the only move from Lucina brings illusion to those who would main her

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

@ ItsRainingGravy But I thought QAC was in the game. Anyway, I think I'll do Luigi next, if no-one's working on him already.

I've been using Gfycat up to this point, but I didn't fully know how some of its features work. So it's nice to know that I don't have to slow the GIFs down myself.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

@ ItsRainingGravy But I thought QAC was in the game.

Oh.

Well then.

*ahem*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Z9cjKkqn4

And yeah, I am doing a different character next, so you can do Luigi. lol

 

[The Slayer]

Has anyone posted this yet? Samus's dAir looks pretty sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3LemQ-zUSw

Looks more like a B-Air. Which really isn't too surprising for Samus since it's been known for it's decent knock back.

 

[ferioku]

@ ItsRainingGravy But I thought QAC was in the game. Anyway, I think I'll do Luigi next, if no-one's working on him already.

I've been using Gfycat up to this point, but I didn't fully know how some of its features work. So it's nice to know that I don't have to slow the GIFs down myself.

QAC is back??????????? WUUUUT?

 

[Venks]

Looks more like a B-Air. Which really isn't too surprising for Samus since it's been known for it's decent knock back.

It's not her bAir. Only moves that spike cause ground bounces. That would be Samus's dAir.

 

[The Slayer]

It's not her bAir. Only moves that spike cause ground bounces. That would be Samus's dAir.

Ah jeez, was looking at the purpose of the video instead of the initial hit. That's true, but the KO'ing was a B-Air. But still, nothing surprising.

 

[Venks]

Ah jeez, was looking at the purpose of the video instead of the initial hit. That's true, but the KO'ing was a B-Air. But still, nothing surprising.

Actually that final hit is Samus's new nAir, not the bAir.

 

[JV5Chris]

http://www.gfycat.com/NegativeCaringChamois
Pikachu
Back Air
Another garbage move. Man, I REALLY miss his Bair from 64. Anyways though, seems to have almost exactly 40 frames of lag. Which is 10 frames slower than it was in Melee. (30 frames/15 L-Canceled)
Extremely Laggy

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the goals with Smash 4 was to expand on aerial ground recovery animations when possible. It does give Pikachu a little more character, but it also re-enforces one of the reasons people avoid the move in the first place. If the 64 Bair returned instead it would make a lot of people very happy.

 

[The Slayer]

Actually that final hit is Samus's new nAir, not the bAir.

Hm, a weird looking sex kick then. Almost like a regurgitated B-air.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

For the first time ever, I think I'm grateful for roll spam. It makes it easy to tell what part of the animation can be interrupted. It's because of this that I'm going to be looking at Toon Link again. I think the SDCC footage might show better results.

Here's Luigi, ladies and gentlemen. Currently missing Up Aerial. That move is so fast that it always finishes before the player lands I swear.

Spoiler

http://www.gfycat.com/GentleIcyDaddylonglegs
Luigi
Forward Aerial
Looks to have 18-20 frames of landing lag. Melee had 25 and Brawl's was even higher, so definite buff here. It's worth noting that in Brawl, it had 30 frames of landing lag but could be interrupted as soon as frame 23. So here the interrupt is even earlier. Nice!
Laggy

http://www.gfycat.com/UnselfishDownrightFruitfly
Luigi
Neutral Aerial
14 frames of landing lag. If you watch it in frame-by-frame you can see just how... "incomplete" the animation is. Luigi is still ducking but then instantly snaps up, dashes and begins charging Green Missle. No real change here.
Some lag

http://www.gfycat.com/GlamorousShabbyAss
Luigi
Down Aerial
16-18 frames of landing lag. Just like Neutral Aerial, this matches up with Melee and Brawl.
Some lag

http://www.gfycat.com/DentalSmoothDrake
Luigi
Back Aerial
14 frames of landing lag. Starts rolling after 7 in-video frames. Brawl's had 17 full and could interrupt on frame 13. So I think 14 is probably as short as it gets here. (Thank you based roll spam!)
Some lag

Luigi's landing lag really hasn't underwent much in the way of notable changes. His Fair is less laggy now for sure but everything else should feel familiar to Luigi players, both from Melee and Brawl.

Uair: N/A
Fair: 18-20 (Sm4sh), 25 (Melee), 30 (Brawl)
Nair: 14 (Sm4sh), 15 (Melee), 14 (Brawl)
Dair: 16-18* (Sm4sh), 18 (Melee), 17 (Brawl)
Bair: 14 (Sm4sh), 15 (Melee), 17 (Brawl)

*Dair could interrupt as early as frame 13 in Brawl, so I feel that I can get a smaller number here. I'll update later if I find footage of such.

SSBM Luigi frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-hitboxes-and-frame-data.306546/
SSBB Luigi frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/exte...ing-for-luigi-added-u-tilt-smash-gifs.175652/

 

[Nat Goméz]

So in general there is more landing lag... i hoped if it was landing lag everyone should have it >:0 i mean, by doing that they deliberately give strategie and combo advantage sending some characters up and some characters down in the tier list, and that's the opposite of balance, balance would of be every character having it, or none of them having it

 

[Protom]

Really clever and convenient idea for a thread. I can't really contribute statistics myself, but I'll be sure to check back whenever there's new info on LL..

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So in general there is more landing lag... i hoped if it was landing lag everyone should have it >:0 i mean, by doing that they deliberately give strategie and combo advantage sending some characters up and some characters down in the tier list, and that's the opposite of balance, balance would of be every character having it, or none of them having it

Actually some moves having or not having lag is a part of balance, along with landing lag.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So in general there is more landing lag... i hoped if it was landing lag everyone should have it >:0 i mean, by doing that they deliberately give strategie and combo advantage sending some characters up and some characters down in the tier list, and that's the opposite of balance, balance would of be every character having it, or none of them having it

Not necessarily. It's hard to really tell when a number of characters who appear to have more lag also seem to have IASA frames that make things a bit more complicated. Also keep in mind that frame data is the kind of thing that can easily be adjusted in the course of balancing the game, so don't take what you see in this thread too seriously. Besides, characters like Marth and Pikachu are two of the most consistently good characters in all of Smash, so I'm not too worried about them being nerfed.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Imma slap the hell out of people with Sheik. Great thread.

 

[Bedoop]

I love how everyone uses Melee as the prime source for weither a Smash Bros. game is "Good" or not.
Seriously, basically 90% of 'Muricans/UK'ers use Project M nowadays (me being one of the other 10% simply because I have no SD Card-compatible Computer) instead of Brawl, and all say the Melee is the "Best" game.
I love Melee, but I always wondered why people suggest that.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Actually some moves having or not having lag is a part of balance, along with landing lag.

A super moderator holy f****** s*** o.o i'll just agree with you man o.o

Not necessarily. It's hard to really tell when a number of characters who appear to have more lag also seem to have IASA frames that make things a bit more complicated. Also keep in mind that frame data is the kind of thing that can easily be adjusted in the course of balancing the game, so don't take what you see in this thread too seriously. Besides, characters like Marth and Pikachu are two of the most consistently good characters in all of Smash, so I'm not too worried about them being nerfed.

It will be nice if they change it to the final version of the game, but if they didn't then would be unfair, of course they can put some lag for balance but then you see characters with huge amounts of lag (my marth :'( ) and some of them having a huge advantage on this (like sheik) that's where i'm looking at

I love how everyone uses Melee as the prime source for weither a Smash Bros. game is "Good" or not.
Seriously, basically 90% of 'Muricans/UK'ers use Project M nowadays (me being one of the other 10% simply because I have no SD Card-compatible Computer) instead of Brawl, and all say the Melee is the "Best" game.
I love Melee, but I always wondered why people suggest that.

Cause Melee is the stance of all goodness, the better it is, the closest to melee