Compendium of Landing Lag Information for Smash 4

[ferioku]

@Eternal phoenix Fire @ JamietheAuraUser

Thanks for the confirmation!

 

[micstar615]

Lucina, Shulk, Ganondorf and Bowser Jr seemed to have considerably less landing lag on their aerials in that leaked footage compared to what we have seen from characters used in the E3 build, but since it's from smash run...it's hard to say if landing was was really decreased or if landing lag decrease is a result of one of the boosts from Smash Run...here's a video of a Smash Run battle (starts at about 6:08), maybe we can decipher it and see if any of the boosts seemed to have had an effect on aerial landing lag
http://youtu.be/sJatbApPQa4

 

[Joe73191]

Even the highest lag aerials should not have more than 20 frames of landing lag. Most if not all aerials should have less than 15 frames of landing lag. Maybe Link's Down Air can have 25 frames of land-lag at max. Most landing lag should be between 6 and 9 frames. If you go by melee and go by character then a character like bowser should have around 15 frames of lag on his aerials, while a character like falco should have around 9 frames of lag on his aerials. This would allow the game to not need l-canceling because it would basically be in there, it would just be automatic. In melee l-canceled aerials range from 6 frames of land lag to 20 frames on one of bowser's and finally 25 for link and young link's down air. This was a great speed for landing lag and should be replicated in smash 4.

 

[JV5Chris]

Comparatively in Melee it's 9 frames l-canceled, 19 frames without, and interruptible if the entire sequence takes longer than 35 frames. To put that into perspective, CF's landing animation in Smash 4 is just about the same length as the move+landing lag in Melee using the IASA frames and no l-cancel. Expect it to be a lot closer to the knee in Brawl.

 

[Senario]

Comparatively in Melee it's 9 frames l-canceled, 19 frames without, and interruptible if the entire sequence takes longer than 35 frames. To put that into perspective, CF's landing animation in Smash 4 is just about the same length as the move+landing lag in Melee using the IASA frames and no l-cancel. Expect it to be a lot closer to the knee in Brawl.

Well....That is absolutely abysmal amounts of landing lag. It better kill at 40-50% because that is just getting to the point of ridiculousness.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well....That is absolutely abysmal amounts of landing lag. It better kill at 40-50% because that is just getting to the point of ridiculousness.

if its a kill move sweetspot like zelda i can see the reasoning in it. or there could be some sweet auto cancels

 

[Senario]

if its a kill move sweetspot like zelda i can see the reasoning in it. or there could be some sweet auto cancels

You forget that zelda is bad in every version of smash besides project M.

There is no justification for that much landing lag on any move. Even 20 frames is pushing it into the territory of you cant do anything with it because it is too risky compared to the reward. Unless it is a rest situation where getting hit by it is hard to do and it kills at nearly any percent it is just excessive.

Just because something is a kill move doesnt justify that much lag. Especially when falcon was terrible in brawl.

 

[HeavyLobster]

To be fair, Melee Knee was really dumb (albeit awesome), so it's not unreasonable to give it some kind of downside if you're going to bring back that kind of power. We still don't know how much aerial lag it'll have, so offstage Knee could still be viable. Also, it isn't that big of a deal as long as Falcon has ways of comboing into it.

 

[Senario]

To be fair, Melee Knee was really dumb (albeit awesome), so it's not unreasonable to give it some kind of downside if you're going to bring back that kind of power. We still don't know how much aerial lag it'll have, so offstage Knee could still be viable. Also, it isn't that big of a deal as long as Falcon has ways of comboing into it.

Melee knee wasnt that dumb it was based on the physics of the game and speed of falcon. He could follow people but generally falcon had to read his opponents for raw knees. Otherwise he would have to get a hard read with a down air, hit a very telegraphed side B, or do up air shenanigans which were very difficult and semi based on enemy position and percent. I would understand maybe 12 frames of landing lag. But 30 or more? Better instakill at most percents.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Melee knee wasnt that dumb it was based on the physics of the game and speed of falcon. He could follow people but generally falcon had to read his opponents for raw knees. Otherwise he would have to get a hard read with a down air, hit a very telegraphed side B, or do up air shenanigans which were very difficult and semi based on enemy position and percent. I would understand maybe 12 frames of landing lag. But 30 or more? Better instakill at most percents.

why dose the move have to used in short hops?

 

[Empyrean]

I'm waiting to see how strong it actually is before making a judgment on the move's effectiveness. Either way, that's a ridiculous amount of landing lag. At the very least, nair, bair and uair look good.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm waiting to see how strong it actually is before making a judgment on the move's effectiveness. Either way, that's a ridiculous amount of landing lag. At the very least, nair, bair and uair look good.

We also need to know about any potential autocancel frames. He had them in Brawl, so it wouldn't be remotely surprising at all for him to get some here, because that is a lot of lag even for a kill move.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Not surprised by massive landing lag on the knee. He landed while the hitbox was still out, after all.

 

[Senario]

why dose the move have to used in short hops?

Because falcon relies a lot on reads to land his knee. Predicting somebody's roll or where they will land on a platform and Kneeing them is part of his playstyle. The problem is that landing lag is not limited to just short hops. It applies to full hops as well because platforms exist. And taking out platforms is a terrible idea for competitive play because people do not want to play on the same exact stage all the time. At least a few types of variation.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

@ JV5Chris Do you know where I can find that video of Cpt. Falcon? I would like to analyse any and all footage from the final build I can get my hands on.

Off topic Marth GIFs are here:

Spoiler

Am I the only one who thinks that Marth's sword is actually slightly longer on at least SOME of his moves? I know these GIFs aren't perfect for comparison because of camera angle/zoom differences, but just have a look anyway.

The top of the arc, to me at least, looks noticeably further away from Marth's head in Smash 4 than it does in Brawl.

Same deal here; the distance between the tip and his head looks bigger in Smash 4. Like am I crazy? From what I can see Marth's attacks, if they aren't bigger, certainly are not smaller than in Brawl. I don't get how people can say that all of his attacks were reduced in size. Besides, Marth's range is TINY in Brawl. If Marth's sword was somehow shortened again then it would probably like this:

Anyway, I'm gonna start on Megaman in half an hour or so and get this thread back on topic.

Get hype?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Because falcon relies a lot on reads to land his knee. Predicting somebody's roll or where they will land on a platform and Kneeing them is part of his playstyle. The problem is that landing lag is not limited to just short hops. It applies to full hops as well because platforms exist. And taking out platforms is a terrible idea for competitive play because people do not want to play on the same exact stage all the time. At least a few types of variation.

Well i guess the knee will just have to be used as a combo finisher and not an aggression move.

 

[Luigi#1]

Will the first page be updated soon?

 

[JV5Chris]

@ JV5Chris Do you know where I can find that video of Cpt. Falcon? I would like to analyse any and all footage from the final build I can get my hands on.

Unfortunately it was just a random gif from neogaf.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Because falcon relies a lot on reads to land his knee. Predicting somebody's roll or where they will land on a platform and Kneeing them is part of his playstyle. The problem is that landing lag is not limited to just short hops. It applies to full hops as well because platforms exist. And taking out platforms is a terrible idea for competitive play because people do not want to play on the same exact stage all the time. At least a few types of variation.

You don't know what Falcon relies on in Smash 4 because you've never played him in Smash 4.

You really have to stop being negative using the older games as your only reference point.

Smash 4 is completely different from Brawl or Melee or 64, you have to rebuild your view of the characters from the ground up. Every mechanic and frame of lag in the game has been given a purpose. You can feel that when you play it. The fact of the matter is, Smash 4 is not suffering from bad bouts of landing lag, and plenty of players on the demo post-weekend are now confirming this. Every character has low landing lag options. Plenty of them.

An easy to hit sweet spot kill move at low %s with horrendous landing lag sounds fine to me.

 

[Fex13]

i agree with zipzo. well just have to wait and actually play the game before judging anything. i bet the landing lag issue isnt half as bad as many people make it out to be. im just hoping that we will be able to combo better than in brawl due to increased hit stun

 

[JV5Chris]

While this is a new game, it is still Smash. Landing lag will have an impact on what moves people use and when. Senario is right here. A rising Captain Falcon knee with lots of landing lag is a higher risk if a platform is involved. As players get better, the move's utility is going to shrink.

Don't take that as some positive or negative remark on Smash 4. It's just the reality of what happens in this franchise as the meta game develops. Expecting Smash 4 to change that is unrealistic. Got maybe a few weeks before players start optimizing and really punish those that want to use their higher risk moves in the neutral game.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

While this is a new game, it is still Smash. Landing lag will have an impact on what moves people use and when. Senario is right here. A rising Captain Falcon knee with lots of landing lag is a higher risk if a platform is involved. As players get better, the move's utility is going to shrink.

Don't take that as some positive or negative remark on Smash 4. It's just the reality of what happens in this franchise as the meta game develops. Expecting Smash 4 to change that is unrealistic. Got maybe a few weeks before players start optimizing and really punishing those that want to use their higher risk moves in the neutral game.

Nah, so far the game greatly rewards taking risks. That's why the blast zones are so big...they want you jumping off that stage to knee.

 

[JV5Chris]

Nah, so far the game greatly rewards taking risks.

I remember people thinking similar things about Brawl around this time too. It's just way to early to reach any sort of consensus on the matter. Give it some time for people to figure out the game.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I remember people thinking similar things about Brawl around this time too. It's just way to early to reach any sort of conclusion on this matter. Give it some time for people to figure out the game.

I agree it's pretty early but these first impressions we all have are pretty strong. I'm open to the game being 100% the opposite of what it seems right now from all the gameplay we have now but I think we've reached a point where impressions have become pretty solid observations.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Nah, so far the game greatly rewards taking risks. That's why the blast zones are so big...they want you jumping off that stage to knee.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if momentum actually transferred from run to jump.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'd be more inclined to believe that if momentum actually transferred from run to jump.

This doesn't really hinder your ability to go off-stage at all so...

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Will the first page be updated soon?

Yeah. I will be updating sometime soon. Personal things have been keeping me occupied (been to the hospital last week), so I've just been relaxing recently.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just because something is a kill move doesnt justify that much lag. Especially when falcon was terrible in brawl.

Brawl Falcon got nerfed pretty hard in Brawl, more than needed, but by the looks of the footage people took it looks like it kills pretty well but we won't know numbers til release.

 

[Senario]

Brawl Falcon got nerfed pretty hard in Brawl, more than needed, but by the looks of the footage people took it looks like it kills pretty well but we won't know numbers til release.

I just dont see the purpose of doing this unless he has significant tools to make up for the lack of full air momentum being retained from ground as well as how strong stale move negation is in brawl and smash 4. I understand the intent of the mechanic but melee and its version were fine as people had to mix it up to do well. Like his signature downstomp combo, side B knee, gentleman knee, down throw or up throw knee, all would be really cool and make sense since knee is his signature. Like how marth and his dair is signature.

Just feels like he is going to be lackluster which is a huge disappointment for a fan favorite character. Even marth I am questioning about continuing to play him as I did in both melee and project M alongside sheik. Sheik might still be good but I really liked the spacing and spike/gimp oriented playstyle of marth.

 

[Nixon Corral]

This doesn't really hinder your ability to go off-stage at all so...

It hinders your ability to go offstage very far without using your second jump.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

It hinders your ability to go offstage very far without using your second jump.

Hence risk.

 

[JV5Chris]

That might be true if Brawl and Smash 4 didn't have such strong recoveries. Removing momentum based jumping never made much sense to me. Jumping just had a better game feel when when it carried over.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That might be true if Brawl and Smash 4 didn't have such strong recoveries. Removing momentum based jumping never made much sense to me. Jumping just had a better game feel when when it carried over.

Most of them aren't as good as people think they are.

If anything Project M has all the games beat for, no way to edge guard and stupidly safe recoveries.

 

[JV5Chris]

Was referring to simply getting back to the ledge or on stage after chasing someone off. Lots of characters in Smash 4 look like they're more than capable of returning from far distances, both horizontally and vertically.

 

[Senario]

Recoveries are kinda ridiculous in this game. You can recover from so far out. It'll definitely be a gimp heavy game but not sure how balanced that is as some characters just do not gimp that well.

 

[Bladeviper]

landing lag so far over all seems to be a non issue for most if not all of the characters with most of the cast having 2 or more moves that are good for combos or approaches

 

[Road Death Wheel]

this thread is just becoming a general landing lag thread lets keeps the debates to a minimum.

 

[ADAPT Chance]

Good thread full of useful information.

Curious to see the frames on Diddy's F-air.

 

[Chiroz]

You can't Z-Air out of Air Dodge lag anymore as M2K and D1 were saying. Dodging into the ground is NOT an option at anytime, it lags more than any aerial attack currently on the demo. Basically Air Dodging should never be done close to the ground as you will just get punished with a Smash once you hit the ground.