Characters who should had made the cut?

[MasterOfKnees]

What about Toad? He's considered one of the so called last Nintendo All-Stars IIRC.

I agree that he's the last missing Nintendo All-Star, but his support is always middling at best, and recently not even that with how both Waluigi and Geno are favored over him. I'd like to see him for his few very dedicated fans, I have a lot of sympathy for them, but I think the all around reception would be kind of underwhelming, and for a character to really be essential they need to have popularity on their side imo.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Probably this IMO.

First line: Captain Toad or Toad(but probably not both unless they share a moveset) and Dixie Kong. These characters have had their own starring games, are pretty damn recognisable the world over and are what I'd consider the last of the missing Nintendo All Stars.

Second line: Bandana Waddle Dee, Waluigi and Lyndis are three popular characters from their respective series(yes Waluigi is genuinely popular, shuddup) who for whatever reason still haven't made the cut as playable.
Paper Mario has his own series and would be up on the first line if he wasn't a third Mario(which sorry, I just hate dupes in general),
Springman who is single handedly the most surprising missing character
A new Zelda character which we want desperately but nobody can agree on which one is essential.

Needless to say if this was the next game's newcomer roster I'd probably consider it the best newcomer lineup to date.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

1. Adequate Kirby representation.
2. Fighters we actually wanted
3. Unique fighters.

 

[Nepht]

I agree that he's the last missing Nintendo All-Star, but his support is always middling at best, and recently not even that with how both Waluigi and Geno are favored over him. I'd like to see him for his few very dedicated fans, I have a lot of sympathy for them, but I think the all around reception would be kind of underwhelming, and for a character to really be essential they need to have popularity on their side imo.

Toad is such a good pick though. Now that THE Toad (The guy from SMB2 USA) had been made different enough from other Toads with his Captain Toad makeover his inclusion into Smash is well overdue. They missed a trick they could have also had Toadette as an echo fighter and added Wart or Birdo to the game as a rival fighter or boss.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

My point is they're the self-same person in different forms. This is supported in Zelda canon. Even the more recent BotW makes note of this detail that in the past, Calamity Ganon took on the form of a human, but not this time around.

"The Demon King has been defeated countless times by heroes in the past. He is thought to have been resurrected after many years. Leading a demon army, he invades Lesser Hyrule, seeking the Triforce." (Hyrule Historia, p. 106)

"No longer bearing any trace of the man known as the Great Thief, Ganondorf, he opposes Link in the form of a demonic beast, bereft of intelligence." (ibid., p. 106)

"Extraordinary. You stand as a paragon of your kind, human. You fight like no human or demon I have ever known. Though this is not the end. My hate . . . never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again! Those like you . . . Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero . . . They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!" (Demise, Skyward Sword)

"However, the destruction of Demise was not the end of the battle. It was the beginning of a curse: a never ending cycle of the reincarnation of the Demon King, whose hatred for those with the blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero is everlasting" (Hyrule Historia, p. 76)

"Ganon . . . This beast was once of the Gerudo . . . Once human. He was called Ganondorf! King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!" (Princess Zelda, Four Swords Adventures)

"Once known as the King of Thieves, Ganondorf Dragmire used the power of the Triforce to become the beast, Ganon." (Nintendo Online Guide - The Legend of Zelda)

"Though 'Ganon' is also a nickname for Ganondorf, here it refers to the beastlike form adopted by the thief following his transformation. The Demon King resembles a giant boar." (Hyrule Historia, p. 90)

"A design sketch depicting Ganondorf’s phantom. Ganondorf never appears in the Oracle series, however. Only his beast form, Ganon, is seen." (ibid., p 169)

"Ganon: No trace remains of the human known as Ganondorf." (ibid., p.121)

"The history of the royal family of Hyrule is also the history of Calamity Ganon, a primal evil that has endured over the ages." (Impa, BotW)

"Ganon was born out of a dark past. He is a pure embodiment of the ancient evil that is reborn time and time again . . . He has given up on reincarnation and assumed his pure enraged form." (Zelda, BotW)

Ganondorf is Ganon, and Ganon is Ganondorf. There are different forms he takes, and this is even seen in both OoT and TP where he has a human form and beast form. Thus, if the developers decided to introduce the beast form that resembles a boar, they could. All I'm saying is they could just change his appearance, his name, and his moveset.

I already know all of this and that's what I want.

 

[JoyStar]

View attachment 187177

Probably this IMO.

First line: Captain Toad or Toad(but probably not both unless they share a moveset) and Dixie Kong. These characters have had their own starring games, are pretty damn recognisable the world over and are what I'd consider the last of the missing Nintendo All Stars.

Second line: Bandana Waddle Dee, Waluigi and Lyndis are three popular characters from their respective series(yes Waluigi is genuinely popular, shuddup) who for whatever reason still haven't made the cut as playable.
Paper Mario has his own series and would be up on the first line if he wasn't a third Mario(which sorry, I just hate dupes in general),
Springman who is single handedly the most surprising missing character
A new Zelda character which we want desperately but nobody can agree on which one is essential.

Needless to say if this was the next game's newcomer roster I'd probably consider it the best newcomer lineup to date.

With that part I bolded, honestly part of me thinks that's the reason why we haven't gotten a new Zelda rep yet.

When it comes to Metroid and DK reps, everyone just rallied behind Ridley and K Rool, respectively. With Zelda? I've seen people argue for Skull Kid, Impa, Midna, Vaati, Champions, Pig Ganon, and Tingle, pretty much in that order. It's spread out over several characters people want.

Personally if the first 3 were added I'd be cool with that, as I have no emotional connection to Vaati whatsoever (never played any of the 2D Zelda games tbh), Pig Ganon is just another Ganondorf, and I find Tingle kind of creepy. But the Zelda fandom has its support stretched thin between several characters.

Of course I have my bias, but honestly I think Skull Kid is the one who stands a shot the most (Impa appears a lot but she could be a Shiek echo, Skull Kid would be good unique one). His game had a remake and has become quite beloved over the years, the game he's from hinges on him for the entire plot (pretty much), and he appeared in Hyrule Warriors as a fighter between when Smash's roster was decided and now. If he had been in HW earlier he probably would have been considered as a fighter, but even as it stands in Smash, he's halfway there—3D models were difficult which is why trophies were replaced with Spirits, and with the Mii Costume looking just like him, he basically already has a playable model in the game. Just give him a voice and proper moveset and you're done. Characters who've been Assists and Costumes before have been upgraded to playable (looking at you K Rool, Inklings, Isabelle, and Dark Samus), and Skull Kid's both at the same time. If the Zelda fanbase consolidate their efforts into one character (or even two), they'd have more of a chance of getting in.

(After Skull Kid I totally want Midna though, preferably in the same reveal trailer.)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Number one missing character I feel is honestly Dixie Kong. And no I am not being ungrateful even though we've gotten King K.Rool. She honestly should've been included as well. There's many a case of multiple newcomers for a franchise, and even Ultimate had them. Dark Samus and Ridley from Metroid, and Simon and Richter Belmont from Castlevania. Counting returning veterans, Pokemon had 3 oldies returning and Incineroar as newcomer. Then there's the whole Smash 4 Fire Emblem fiasco which became infamous of course. Anyway, I don't feel like defending it, Dixie should've made the cut. She was in Tropical Freeze, which did GREAT on Switch, and she's a classic character with lots of cool abilities and potential for a nice moveset in Smash Bros.

Next is obviously a Zelda newcomer, and while Zelda got lot's of attention given to it, and Young Link came back, it's still a franchise way too big to ignore. If newcomers where added the Smash 4 way, and "Everyone Is Here" was not a concept, I have no doubt that they would've picked a Champion from Breath of the Wild. However, can't complain with the revamps of the designs and movesets of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf mostly, and how they managed to have THREE separate Link fighters that all feel drastically different DESPITE Toon Link being introduced in Brawl as a sort of revamped Young Link.

The Zelda newcomer of my choice would definitely be Impa though. I don't see why she wasn't even considered a Echo Fighter. It would've been a great fit. And Skull Kid was also missing, and it was a perfect oppertunity now that Young Link is back. Both would've been even better, and I think that the Zelda roster would have absolutely been PERFECT if it was so.

My third most missed character is Isaac. From Golden Sun of course. What else can I say besides the obvious...... Am glad he is at least a Mii Fighter now. I put him a bit lower despite being hugely unique and all, because Golden Sun as a franchise has been dormant for a while.

Next I would say is Bandana Dee, but it's Sakurai bias that caused this am sure. Marx is a boss however, which is kind of a nodd, but it's weird how Sakurai keeps denying anything Kirby besides his own creation.

Now one am pretty sure is a high contender for DLC, as well as a character that was probably planned in some way or form is Monster Hunter. Quite obvious, and there's lot of potential with it as well.

 

[Porygon2]

Pig Ganon is just another Ganondorf

Really do not understand this argument. Does the canonical connection between the two characters and/or their similar names really press more on you than the fact that they have completely different looks, moveset potentials, personalities, and gaming histories?

As far as other characters go, Shadow did seem like an echo shoe-in considering the "you probably saw this coming" standard set by Chrom and Dark Samus. I'm not at all upset about him missing, but I think they'd have done well to make his status more obvious from the get-go, as he has a significant fanbase and most saw him as a safe bet. It's a monkey paw scenario either way as the lines of which echos get more attention given to them are blurry. Dark Samus is far more distinct from Samus than Ken is from Ryu, for example. Lots of untapped potential.

Holding my tongue on other fighters pending DLC. I also think there should have been an original boss for every member of the 64 cast. Ratholos just feels odd.

 

[Tetrin]

Krystal, Isaac, Andy, and Skull Kid come to mind first.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Really do not understand this argument. Does the canonical connection between the two characters and/or their similar names really press more on you than the fact that they have completely different looks, moveset potentials, personalities, and gaming histories?

As far as other characters go, Shadow did seem like an echo shoe-in considering the "you probably saw this coming" standard set by Chrom and Dark Samus. I'm not at all upset about him missing, but I think they'd have done well to make his status more obvious from the get-go, as he has a significant fanbase and most saw him as a safe bet. It's a monkey paw scenario either way as the lines of which echos get more attention given to them are blurry. Dark Samus is far more distinct from Samus than Ken is from Ryu, for example. Lots of untapped potential.

Holding my tongue on other fighters pending DLC. I also think there should have been an original boss for every member of the 64 cast. Ratholos just feels odd.

I'm not too sure about every 64 member having a boss though. I think if all of them had bosses, they should be:

should have King Bob-Omb.

and should have Lord Fredrick.

should have Mother Brain in her 2nd form from Super Metroid.

and should have Andross.

should have Kamek or giant Baby Bowser.

vs is already perfect so I won't go into that.

, , and vs Ganon is already perfect.

vs Marx is already perfect.

and fighting Porky again would be awesome. But I feel like Porky has a better shot of being a DLC character whether than being a boss again because of him not having a spirit.

should have King Boo.

should have Black Shadow or Blood Falcon. It was a big missed opportunity for Sakurai to not have made one of those two into a Echo Fighter.

I don't remember who she fights at the end of Classic Mode. But it wouldn't really matter that much who Jiggs fights.

 

[JoyStar]

Really do not understand this argument. Does the canonical connection between the two characters and/or their similar names really press more on you than the fact that they have completely different looks, moveset potentials, personalities, and gaming histories?

As far as other characters go, Shadow did seem like an echo shoe-in considering the "you probably saw this coming" standard set by Chrom and Dark Samus. I'm not at all upset about him missing, but I think they'd have done well to make his status more obvious from the get-go, as he has a significant fanbase and most saw him as a safe bet. It's a monkey paw scenario either way as the lines of which echos get more attention given to them are blurry. Dark Samus is far more distinct from Samus than Ken is from Ryu, for example. Lots of untapped potential.

Holding my tongue on other fighters pending DLC. I also think there should have been an original boss for every member of the 64 cast. Ratholos just feels odd.

I know that Pig Ganon and Ganondorf have completely different looks, personalities, etc., but they're still incarnations of each other, and it only adds to the issue people have of "the only Zelda characters are variations of the Triforce holders" (I personally feel like Zelda and Sheik could have stayed one character since they directly are the same character, rather than being a separate incarnation or whatever). My personal ideal would be to keep the characters that we have (maybe recombining Sheik and Zelda again), giving Young Link a more Majora's Mask-based moveset (transformation masks as a down-b like Zelda into Sheik, Fierce Deity Final Smash), and adding Skull Kid, Impa, and Midna.

I do agree regarding Shadow though. The moment the concept of echo fighters was brought up I thought "Oh, Shadow will get in for sure!" Could have been more an issue on Sega's side though moreso than Sakurai and the Smash team.

 

[Nepht]

Really do not understand this argument. Does the canonical connection between the two characters and/or their similar names really press more on you than the fact that they have completely different looks, moveset potentials, personalities, and gaming histories?

As far as other characters go, Shadow did seem like an echo shoe-in considering the "you probably saw this coming" standard set by Chrom and Dark Samus. I'm not at all upset about him missing, but I think they'd have done well to make his status more obvious from the get-go, as he has a significant fanbase and most saw him as a safe bet. It's a monkey paw scenario either way as the lines of which echos get more attention given to them are blurry. Dark Samus is far more distinct from Samus than Ken is from Ryu, for example. Lots of untapped potential.

Holding my tongue on other fighters pending DLC. I also think there should have been an original boss for every member of the 64 cast. Ratholos just feels odd.

I think Breath of the Wild has shown that Ganondorf and Ganon are not really the same being. Ganon is Demise's rage and anger. Ganodorf is the poor guy that is the vessel for that rage. The Wind Waker and to an extent Twilight Princess shown that Ganondorf is really tired of all the bull****. His death in either of those games stayed intact but even with Ganondorf's seemingly permanent death Ganon survived and is still threatening Hyrule by the time BoTW starts. Ganon does not need Ganondorf.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Toad is such a good pick though. Now that THE Toad (The guy from SMB2 USA) had been made different enough from other Toads with his Captain Toad makeover his inclusion into Smash is well overdue. They missed a trick they could have also had Toadette as an echo fighter and added Wart or Birdo to the game as a rival fighter or boss.

Yessss! Gotta build up the Toad Brigade again.

He's been excluded for so long a lot of his fans have just straight up given up on poor fungus. The current dedicated fans are so disheartened seeing every frigging Mario character get in before him it's kinda difficult to build up any momentum.

I'm not sure why he has such a middling opinion with Smash Fans honestly:

+His design is freaking great; we have no-one with Toad's aesthetic currently in Smash. Just from a purely aesthetic perspective I appreciate how he's been based off a little arabian knight or genie but with a mushroom theme replacing his turban, which is honestly quite a cute little design. He's cute, but not over the toply so like say Jigglypuff is with a simplistic looking face instead of massive adorable eyes. I think he sort of walks that same line as Pikachu does with a balance of appeal between cute and cool.

+Mechanically he'd be interesting; a small framed speedster with poor aerial manuevability. Judging by what Sakurai did for Toad's Spirit Battle, he'd probably be a tiny little speedster grappler if he ever got in, which could make for some aggressive in your face gameplay that everyone loves. Toad, just going by his stats from SMB2 would have to be an up close and personal attacker.

+His moveset. A lot of people say he has no moveset potential, but that's weird to me. When people say this they mean he doesn't have a rigid obvious moveset like say Bandana Waddle Dee would have being a spear weilder(not that this is a bad thing, but it shouldn't be the ONLY thing that matters).

Toad has 30 years of games in various styles and genres under his belt. He can, to name a few of the more obvious abilities:

• Walk up walls(Wario's Woods)
• Stack enemies(Wario's Woods, SMB2 to some extent)
• Throw Turnips(like Peach does...but he does actually do this more frequently than Peach thanks to Captain Toad Treasure Tracker)
• Throw and kick bombs like he's Bomberman or something(Wario's Woods)
• Summon mushrooms from the ground and use spores(Mario Sports Mix, Smash Bros. general, a little bit in Mario Tennis)
• Use every single power up known to the Mario Bros and is commonly known as the guy who either demonstrates the power ups(as seen in Super 3D Land) or sells/gives the Mario Bros. the power ups(New Super Mario Bros. Series) which easily gives him enough moveset potential alone
• Ride a go-Kart(As he's the only character left that has appeared in every single Mario Kart game to date)
• Host a deadly party which will have everyone blow up, crushed, zapped, burnt, etc (Mario Party's minigames are BRUTAL when you look at some of them)
• Heck, as Toads are seen as generic citizens 50% of the time you could even have him summon his brethren for attacks. Think like how Naruto uses Shadow Clones in the various fighting games he's in. Or if you prefer a Nintendo example; how Luigi was used in Mario and Luigi: Dream Team.

And that's before you go into Captain Toad specifically which adds potential stage manipulation, weight mechanics, a pickaxe, a minecart, double cherries(which again would allow for that Shadow clone thing), a turnip cannon and a headlamp stun alongside turnip throwing at the least.

And yes, as you said we could have gotten a two for one character deal with rising star Toadette as an alt or echo.

Oop, got a bit carried away! I really do enjoy talking about Toad's potential!

I'd like to see him for his few very dedicated fans, I have a lot of sympathy for them

You're a good person MasterOfKnees. This is old artwork, but this represents you supporting our group through the years. Glad you had your Ridley dream come true:

With that part I bolded, honestly part of me thinks that's the reason why we haven't gotten a new Zelda rep yet.

Well...that's why we're going to reason we haven't gotten a new Zelda rep yet, as in that's how we're going to justify it.

We do this all the time to try and understand Sakurai, but honestly a lot of it is just utter nonsense. We probably should have gotten some sort of Zelda character by this point; Fire Emblem gets it's random one offs added every game as does Pokemon and even Mario to some extent(except Toad and Waluigi apparently), so why shouldn't Zelda?

Because: Sakurai's choice.

That's literally all the reasoning behind it. He's an enigma that man, and there's no real good reason for us to not have gotten at least one new Zelda character in the past few games. Sure as hell isn't for a lack of options as literally every character you listed would have been incredibly fun to play as.

Sakurai's a mystery.

 

[Porygon2]

I'm not too sure about every 64 member having a boss though. I think if all of them had bosses, they should be:

should have King Bob-Omb.

and should have Lord Fredrick.

should have Mother Brain in her 2nd form from Super Metroid.

and should have Andross.

should have Kamek or giant Baby Bowser.

vs is already perfect so I won't go into that.

, , and vs Ganon is already perfect.

vs Marx is already perfect.

and fighting Porky again would be awesome. But I feel like Porky has a better shot of being a DLC character whether than being a boss again because of him not having a spirit.

should have King Boo.

should have Black Shadow or Blood Falcon. It was a big missed opportunity for Sakurai to not have made one of those two into a Echo Fighter.

I don't remember who she fights at the end of Classic Mode. But it wouldn't really matter that much who Jiggs fights.

All of these are gold. Yeah I wasn't too sure on Pokemon as it feels kind of cheap just using another fighter like Mewtwo, and Necrozma is a little eh. Perhaps Mewtwo could take on some kind of buffed Mega form with a couple of extra attacks.

I also thought that it might be fun to somehow incorporate Black Shadow or Deathborn into the minigame during the credits, as a race.

the issue people have of "the only Zelda characters are variations of the Triforce holders".

I see more people bringing this up as a hypothetical gripe rather than an actual gripe. Regardless, Ganon’s status as an iconic fighter with a lot of potential should outweigh some arbitrary line in the sand about who happens to hold a plot device piece – and were he implemented properly, I’m sure it would.

People would be better off being vocal about fatigue with Link’s bow/boomerang/bomb/spin attack formula. I do agree that a transforming Young Link would be a great way to showcase other Hyrule races without the “flavor of the month” vibe of adding the Champions. However, I’d also like to see a Link with some of the magic items of the older Zelda games implemented into his moveset – fire rod, medallions, magic cape, all that stuff. Keep Toon as your classic Smash set.

I feel similarly about Sheik, but am not so big on the transformation idea. Unlike Pokemon trainer they're too fundamentally different to mesh together as a balanced unit. Perhaps instead giving her an Impa echo (or vice versa) would further disassociate from Zelda.

Wolf Midna would be interesting, but the relevance of her character is too long past for my tastes – she’s not quite in the same realm of timeless design as Skull Kid, who I’m sure would be a blast. I did think that perhaps Princess Midna would have made for a more interesting Zelda echo than Hilda.

 

[StormC]

Isaac, for sure. And maybe Spring-Man. ARMS deserves recognition, but at the same time if implementing him or Ribbon Girl was problematic, they could use Twintelle, easily ARMS's most popular character.

I'd say Rex or Fiora, but I'm kinda 50-50 on Mii Costumes deconfirming, and I in fact believe Final Smash Appearances are NOT deconfirmations in a post-Chrom world.

Both Spring-Man and Rex missed out due to timing. Design document was finished in February 2016, so it’s hard to fault Sakurai for not including them.

I’ll echo Dixie and Bandana Dee.

 

[TreeBranch]

Bandana Dee, Dixie, Chorus Kids, Geno, Banjo, and Isaac seem like the biggest missing names to me.
Bandana Dee is the last of the four main Kirby characters. A lot of people dismiss his importance for "muh hat goomba", but he's an incredibly important and popular character in the series. The Kirby cast doesn't feel complete without him
Dixie is another character incredibly important to their series, and a Nintendo all star. DK's representation still feels incomplete without her. Her exclusion is incredibly wierd considering echoes are a thing now.
Chorus Kids were probably the biggest blow for me. RH is arguable the biggest unrepped Nintendo series, and was so close to making it last time. Megamix sold really well in Japan, so I thought they really had a chance this time. It doesn't seem Sakurai like to just abandon the character. It hurts even worse knowing the series didn't even get an assist trophy or remixed music.
Geno, Banjo, and Isaac are all characters that have massive support, so they all deserve a spot in my book. Hope they make it sometime

That being said, I'm pretty satisfied with Ultimate's roster. I wouldn't really replace anyone aside from Incineroar for lack of popularity and importance. Chorus Kids' absence sucks, but ill live

 

[Deleted member]

Dixie Kong
Captain Toad

 

[K9-Andrew]

Not counting characters who are Spirits because we don't know if they deconfirm or not. I'm talking about characters who had been downright deconfirmed like assists.

One in particular I felt should had gotten in was Isaac IMO. Not for myself but the fans of him. I feel it wasn't fair me and the K. Rool fans gotten our boi yet they didn't considering he's been asked for just as long and the way Isaac was revealed is especially a huge slap in the face being he was absent in 4 but returns as an assist in this game combined with the fact that he was revealed at the last minute rather then earlier which would had saved them all the pain of not going through all that pointless speculation especially with the "hints" like the Rathalos image or item which made it seemed like Sakurai had been trolling with them. This is the only time I felt he honestly screwed the pooch.

What about you guys?

I got burned when I saw Shadow as an assist trophy. Especially after the grinch leak. I also felt so bad for the Isaac fans. BillyBo10K comes to mind. I think they were patient and respectful enough to get their golden boi in and to me, I think that putting him as an assist trophy wasn't fair to them.

 

[K9-Andrew]

Dixie Kong
Captain Toad

Dixie Kong is one of my most wanted. The other 2 are Banjo and Sora. There's still hope for the other 2 but I don't know about Dixie since she's a spirit and an alt for Diddy again.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

You're a good person MasterOfKnees. This is old artwork, but this represents you supporting our group through the years. Glad you had your Ridley dream come true:

View attachment 187195

I don't know what to say haha, you flatter me. This image is going straight into my Smash folder, wonderful stuff.

It's dedicated people like you who have made me take a liking to Toad supporters though, if I give you praise then it's simply to your credit, you should be proud of your determination and perseverance. Hopefully one day it'll all pay off and you too will live your Smash dream, however long it'll take, it's all worth it in the end.

 

[Door Key Pig]

It's a shame we still didn't get a Rhythm Paradise representative such as the Chorus Kids after all this time.

Smash 4 had the Gemetsu leak, Smash Run enemy and emblem data inside the game to suggest a character was being worked on (supposedly CK) but was for whatever reason cut. Then the franchise had its latest instalment released right before the project plan stuff of Ultimate was done and to pretty good Japanese sales as well (though at the time, it'd take a year to release it to Western audiences and even then, only digitally for North America). So there wasn't the issue of franchise inactivity like Golden Sun. And we'd soon learn that not only was Sakurai going back to previous scrapped ideas for content in Ultimate, but one of them was the other Gemetsu-rumoured but dismissed Smash 4 character.

(Image made by noise r us

And yet, as predicted with the stage amount and box theory, a Rhythm Paradise character didn't come in the final game despite Sakurai presumably nearly giving a little Nintendo developer team their character last time around. We just got Chrom to finally make it over from Smash 4's scrapheap to this game, though he is an easier character to develop.

I could make some guesses as to why they still didn't get into Ultimate:

-They were going to use some kind of complex rhythm-based mechanic they just couldn't pull off right in Smash 4 and didn't bother trying again for Ultimate. That or some other problem they only encountered within development that kept them from dancing the way Sakurai pictured in his head.
-They decided to focus on only the much more important and higher priority newcomers when crafting the project plan, specifically those with notable fan/ballot demand or strong marketability. Rhythm Paradise isn't exactly the most popular Nintendo series around (though neither was Fire Emblem or Xenoblade *grumble*...) and though it had its Smash fan supporters, I'm not sure if they did well enough on the ballot to be as noticed as King K Rool or Castlevania content, or even stuff like Golden Sun.

It's weird that in Ultimate the representation of the franchise is kinda smaller than it was last time, only having another music track and a surprisingly high amount of spirits for an otherwise visually unrepresented series: no assist trophies, stage or Mii costumes to speak of. Almost gives one hope for their shot at DLC, but they might need a new game to promote or something to be viable for that.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

It's a shame we still didn't get a Rhythm Paradise representative such as the Chorus Kids after all this time.

Smash 4 had the Gemetsu leak, Smash Run enemy and emblem data inside the game to suggest a character was being worked on (supposedly CK) but was for whatever reason cut. Then the franchise had its latest instalment released right before the project plan stuff of Ultimate was done and to pretty good Japanese sales as well (though at the time, it'd take a year to release it to Western audiences and even then, only digitally for North America). So there wasn't the issue of franchise inactivity like Golden Sun. And we'd soon learn that not only was Sakurai going back to previous scrapped ideas for content in Ultimate, but one of them was the other Gemetsu-rumoured but dismissed Smash 4 character.

(Image made by noise r us
View attachment 187222

And yet, as predicted with the stage amount and box theory, a Rhythm Paradise character didn't come in the final game despite Sakurai presumably nearly giving a little Nintendo developer team their character last time around. We just got Chrom to finally make it over from Smash 4's scrapheap to this game, though he is an easier character to develop.

I could make some guesses as to why they still didn't get into Ultimate:

-They were going to use some kind of complex rhythm-based mechanic they just couldn't pull off right in Smash 4 and didn't bother trying again for Ultimate. That or some other problem they only encountered within development that kept them from dancing the way Sakurai pictured in his head.
-They decided to focus on only the much more important and higher priority newcomers when crafting the project plan, specifically those with notable fan/ballot demand or strong marketability. Rhythm Paradise isn't exactly the most popular Nintendo series around (though neither was Fire Emblem or Xenoblade *grumble*...) and though it had its Smash fan supporters, I'm not sure if they did well enough on the ballot to be as noticed as King K Rool or Castlevania content, or even stuff like Golden Sun.

It's weird that in Ultimate the representation of the franchise is kinda smaller than it was last time, only having another music track and a surprisingly high amount of spirits for an otherwise visually unrepresented series: no assist trophies, stage or Mii costumes to speak of. Almost gives one hope for their shot at DLC, but they might need a new game to promote or something to be viable for that.

Tis how it feels to be a Dee supporter as well. I understand man, it suuucks.

 

[StormC]

RH being niche in the west is probably why it wasn't given playability in Ultimate. All of the newcomers were from IPs with global popularity.

Also, while Xenoblade wasn't exactly a massive hit stateside, the only reason it was released here was because of fan demand; it was a huge critical darling and easily one of the most acclaimed Wii games. RH hasn't generated that kind of clout in gaming culture once you leave Japan.

Not even getting an Assist Trophy is pretty bizarre though.

 

[Saetanigera]

Does anyone else think their was a promotion slot similar to how their was a Pokemon slot and Isabelle won because she could borrow moves from Villager?

 

[StormC]

Does anyone else think their was a promotion slot similar to how their was a Pokemon slot and Isabelle won because she could borrow moves from Villager?

By this logic almost every character is “promotional.” This is like saying Mario in Smash promotes Mario games; cross promotion is one of the strengths of Smash. But Isabelle got in because she’s the face of one of Nintendo’s biggest modern IPs, really no different than someone like Inkling.

 

[Saetanigera]

Um, promotion as in assist to playable....

 

[TreeBranch]

RH being niche in the west is probably why it wasn't given playability in Ultimate. All of the newcomers were from IPs with global popularity.

Also, while Xenoblade wasn't exactly a massive hit stateside, the only reason it was released here was because of fan demand; it was a huge critical darling and easily one of the most acclaimed Wii games. RH hasn't generated that kind of clout in gaming culture once you leave Japan.

Not even getting an Assist Trophy is pretty bizarre though.

Sadly this is probably the case. Even if it wasn't, they probably wouldn't have been high priority anyway. I'm still salty about no assist trophy lol

Um, promotion as in assist to playable....

I doubt it. It seems like a stupid reason to add a character. Isabelle likely just got in in due to ease of devlopment like you said

 

[StormC]

Um, promotion as in assist to playable....

You forgot Dark Samus.

 

[KatKit]

Style Savvy.

A relatively recent, first-party franchise that currently has 3 songs in Smash (and a trophy in Smash 4). It has 4 games (and counting) and it's fairly popular and the series sold well. Style Savvy is all about customization and costumes, things Smash fans also love. It originated in the DS era (which lacks playable reps), and it is a Nintendo IP with no playable reps so far (people are asking for MORE Mario, Zelda, Sonic, etc. characters, but this is a viable series with NONE thus far). There's no doubt that a character from a fashion/shop simulation game would be original as heck. She would have been more unexpected than even Piranha Plant, and more stylish than even Joker. A Style Savvy rep would expand Smash's demographic and vice versa: Smash Bros. doesn't try to cater to little girls as much as it should. It could've changed that (while also adding another awesome woman in the game) with a Style Savvy character. So, to recap:

-It's popular
-Sold fairly well
-First party IP with no playable reps thus far
-Already has an unusually high amount of exposure in Smash (3 songs, a trophy, and a spirit)
-Relatively recent
-Would have a unique ovaries-to-the-wall unapologetically feminine moveset never before seen in Smash and seldom present in fighting games in general.
-Would expand Smash Bros.' demographic and perhaps make more people interested in Style Savvy
-Could represent an Era that lacks playable reps that originated on the NintendoDS

There's more reasons, but you get the idea. Fun fact: The devs behind Style Savvy also helped make one of the greatest wrestling games of all time... No Mercy on the N64! If The Stylist were in Smash, she could have a grappling move or two thrown in as a nod to that.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Dixie Kong is by and large the biggest and most glaring omission. She should have been there since Brawl.
Others would be a Zelda newcomer, most preferably Impa, due to her major reoccurring roles, Isaac, Ashley, Shadow, Krystal, an Advance Wars Rep, a Rhythm Heaven Rep, and Rex & Pyrrha/Mythra. I'm also shocked they gave ARMS the AT treatment instead of saving them for DLC.

And while I personally didn't care for Waluigi, because I thought Daisy was enough for the new Mario reps, if I knew they were going to put in a second Mario newcomer anyway, I would have taken him over Piranha Plant.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Dixie Kong is one of my most wanted. The other 2 are Banjo and Sora. There's still hope for the other 2 but I don't know about Dixie since she's a spirit and an alt for Diddy again.

Marth had 2 Roy alts when Smash 4 was first released. Didn't stop Roy from becoming DLC. Mario still had his Wario alts in Brawl and Smash 4. Fox still has his Wolf alt.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

Mach rider should have been in melee.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Given the promotion Ashley got in the 2015-2017 period, I was kinda upset she wasn't playable since I thought they were building her up for something. Other than that, there's no character that really surprised me that they aren't playable.

Isaac's from a Dead series (more or less). Geno was never going to be SE's 2nd rep. Skull Kid suffers from Zelda Syndrome. Shadow never should be Sonic's 2nd rep. Banjo's series is dead and owned by competition. Never thought Waluigi would be in Smash before he showed up in a mainline Mario game (This mentality has changed since E3). It was either Dixie or K Rool and we got K. Rool.

To address the Assist Trophy argument, there's more than enough evidence to suggest promotions being a possibility. For the first time in the series history there are conditionals on Assist Trophy spawns. Some legit won't spawn on certain stages (Notable ones being Palkia on Spear Pillar, Moon on Great Bay, Knuckles on Green Hill Zone and Klaptrap on Kongo Jungle) and some Assist spawn combinations are impossible (Yuri Kozata's assist will not Spawn if Nikki's assist trophy is currently on their field, activated or not). Regardless, I don't think promotions will happen within the Fighter's Pass that we know about. If (And only if) we get a 2nd season do I think that possibility opens up.

 

[TreeBranch]

Style Savvy.

A relatively recent, first-party franchise that currently has 3 songs in Smash (and a trophy in Smash 4). It has 4 games (and counting) and it's fairly popular and the series sold well. Style Savvy is all about customization and costumes, things Smash fans also love. It originated in the DS era (which lacks playable reps), and it is a Nintendo IP with no playable reps so far (people are asking for MORE Mario, Zelda, Sonic, etc. characters, but this is a viable series with NONE thus far). There's no doubt that a character from a fashion/shop simulation game would be original as heck. She would have been more unexpected than even Piranha Plant, and more stylish than even Joker. A Style Savvy rep would expand Smash's demographic and vice versa: Smash Bros. doesn't try to cater to little girls as much as it should. It could've changed that (while also adding another awesome woman in the game) with a Style Savvy character. So, to recap:

-It's popular
-Sold fairly well
-First party IP with no playable reps thus far
-Already has an unusually high amount of exposure in Smash (3 songs, a trophy, and a spirit)
-Relatively recent
-Would have a unique ovaries-to-the-wall unapologetically feminine moveset never before seen in Smash and seldom present in fighting games in general.
-Would expand Smash Bros.' demographic and perhaps make more people interested in Style Savvy
-Could represent an Era that lacks playable reps that originated on the NintendoDS

There's more reasons, but you get the idea. Fun fact: The devs behind Style Savvy also helped make one of the greatest wrestling games of all time... No Mercy on the N64! If The Stylist were in Smash, she could have a grappling move or two thrown in as a nod to that.

Sometimes I forget how similar Style Savvy and Rhythm Heaven's situations are. Two somewhat niche yet long running Nintendo franchises that would have incredibly unique moveset potential. They're even both missing rightfully deserved assist trophies! I really want as many different Nintendo franchises as possible in Smash.

Sometimes I wish Ultimate was more like Smash 4. A RH character would have no doubt happened, and a Style Savvy rep could've even been our WFT. Ashley could've even had a chance. I'm glad it turned out the way it did though

 

[RetrogamerMax]

1. Adequate Kirby representation.
2. Fighters we actually wanted
3. Unique fighters.

1. Agreed.
2. We got , , , /, , , , , and Joker who are all fighters a lot of people wanted, so I don't completely agree with that. But I do agree that we should have gotten a couple of more fan favorites in the base roster.

3. So , , , /, , , and Joker are not unique?! Are you serious dude?! oO

Given the promotion Ashley got in the 2015-2017 period, I was kinda upset she wasn't playable since I thought they were building her up for something. Other than that, there's no character that really surprised me that they aren't playable.

Isaac's from a Dead series (more or less). Geno was never going to be SE's 2nd rep. Skull Kid suffers from Zelda Syndrome. Shadow never should be Sonic's 2nd rep. Banjo's series is dead and owned by competition. Never thought Waluigi would be in Smash before he showed up in a mainline Mario game (This mentality has changed since E3). It was either Dixie or K Rool and we got K. Rool.

To address the Assist Trophy argument, there's more than enough evidence to suggest promotions being a possibility. For the first time in the series history there are conditionals on Assist Trophy spawns. Some legit won't spawn on certain stages (Notable ones being Palkia on Spear Pillar, Moon on Great Bay, Knuckles on Green Hill Zone and Klaptrap on Kongo Jungle) and some Assist spawn combinations are impossible (Yuri Kozata's assist will not Spawn if Nikki's assist trophy is currently on their field, activated or not). Regardless, I don't think promotions will happen within the Fighter's Pass that we know about. If (And only if) we get a 2nd season do I think that possibility opens up.

You know K. Rool was pretty much in the same boat as Isaac, Geno, and Banjo before the Smash Ballot right? But of course, he had a higher chance of getting in than them because:

1. He is owned by Nintendo.

2. He was a more popular choice for a Smash newcomer and probably did better than them in the Smash Ballot. Inclusion proves that.

3. He is the famous big bad of DK and is the main villain to one of the original 8.

4. He checked a lot of boxes people thought were really lacking in the roster such as there not being enough villains, there not being enough heavyweights, and there not being enough DK reps, and ect.

5. He was dead just like Isaac, Geno, and Banjo. But was brought back from the dead because of 5 reasons: Smash Ballot, being iconic, MIA, DK fans really wanting him back, and him making Nintendo a lot of money for the next DKCR game.

But besides all that, they really should have all gotten in alongside K. Rool. I'm hoping and prying that Banjo & Kazooie and Geno will still make it as two of the four remaining DLC fighters.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Sometimes I wish Ultimate was more like Smash 4. A RH character would have no doubt happened, and a Style Savvy rep could've even been our WFT. Ashley could've even had a chance. I'm glad it turned out the way it did though

Do you mean more like Smash 4 in terms of amounts of original newcomers? If so, yeah maybe they would have had a better chance since they were among the considered in Smash 4's development. That game also had a a new RH game released not too long before its project plan was made. But after being cut for whatever reasons, maybe time and prioritising what they saw as more marketable and important characters, they remained a low priority for the next game that also happened to have a more limited selection, instead focusing on more marketable and ballot-demanded characters. As it stands, Megamix still has only released digitally in the US and like a year after it's initial release in Japan, which might go to show what level of importance is given to the franchise over in the West. Even as a surprising, WTF head turner newcomer, we got the Pirahna Plant for one. There's also the consideration that they maybe used some kind of rhythm-based mechanic they just couldn't pull off and balance properly in Smash 4, and didn't want to try again for Ultimate. Maybe that's how the characters "danced" in Sakurai's head to get them planned in the first place.

Perhaps you could compare the scrapped RH rep to the supposed Forbidden 7's scrapped newcomers in Brawl: possibly cut from the roster for time constraints and in favour of other newcomers, but not having another good chance to get in a Smash game since for whatever reason like perhaps with Ultimate having a more tight, limited roster (plus if the RH games are currently on hiatus; this article could be bs since they're acknowledging the franchise in Warioware stuff tho lol). Plusle & Minum kind of missed their third generation window of relevancy, not to mention being another Pikachu lookalike after Pichu.

But hey, at least we got Fire Emblem char #7 finally make it in after being denied in Smash 4, yay...

Isaac's from a Dead series (more or less). Geno was never going to be SE's 2nd rep. Skull Kid suffers from Zelda Syndrome. Shadow never should be Sonic's 2nd rep. Banjo's series is dead and owned by competition. Never thought Waluigi would be in Smash before he showed up in a mainline Mario game (This mentality has changed since E3). It was either Dixie or K Rool and we got K. Rool.

Yeah I agree that if we did have some kind of second similar-to-Sonic rep, it should be Tails instead of Shadow. Tails is waaaaay more iconic and important to Sonic than him, even if he's not as popular. And with Knuckles as an assist, it would have been a cool way to get the big three of Sonic together in Smash.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

You know K. Rool was pretty much in the same boat as Isaac, Geno, and Banjo before the Smash Ballot right? But of course, he had a higher chance of getting in than them because:

1. He is owned by Nintendo.

2. He was a more popular choice for a Smash newcomer and probably did better than them in the Smash Ballot. Inclusion proves that.

3. He is the famous big bad of DK and is the main villain to one of the original 8.

4. He checked a lot of boxes people thought were really lacking in the roster such as there not being enough villains, there not being enough heavyweights, and there not being enough DK reps, and ect.

5. He was dead just like Isaac, Geno, and Banjo. But was brought back from the dead because of 5 reasons: Smash Ballot, being iconic, MIA, DK fans really wanting him back, and him making Nintendo a lot of money for the next DKCR game.

But besides all that, they really should have all gotten in alongside K. Rool. I'm hoping and prying that Banjo & Kazooie and Geno will still make it as two of the four remaining DLC fighters.

I think it also helped that he came from a franchise that's still alive and active too.

Sadly can't say the same for someone like Isaac as unfair as I still feel that his fans didn't get him.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

2. We got , , , /, , , , , and Joker who are all fighters a lot of people wanted, so I don't completely agree with that. But I do agree that we should have gotten a couple of more fan favorites in the base roster.

3. So , , , /, , , and Joker are not unique?! Are you serious dude?! oO

Yeah number 2 was basically. "If there wasn't much room for newcomers, they should have all at least been fan favorites."

Number 3 is simply because almost half of the newcomers so far have been clones (echoes), and I have issues with Isabelle.

 

[Deleted member]

It saddens me that people never talk about the only character that should've made the cut

Spoiler

Cutman obviously!!!!

Spoiler

....I'll see myself out.

 

[K9-Andrew]

Marth had 2 Roy alts when Smash 4 was first released. Didn't stop Roy from becoming DLC. Mario still had his Wario alts in Brawl and Smash 4. Fox still has his Wolf alt.

Good point.