Character WEIGHT Affects Vertical Knockback MUCH more significantly than in Melee

[theONEjanitor]

sorry if this has been discusssed. I didn't see it in a search.


I did a few tests in Training Mode and discovered that weight actually affects vertical knockback fairly considerably. If you will remember, in Melee, character weight had almost no affect on vertical knockback, if any at all, for example, Samus was a heavy character, and Kirby was a very light character, but they still died vertically at about the same percentage.

so I created a stage which was basically a long pit and made a drop through platform at the top of it and had some character drop through at the same time

(another thing i've discovered is that every character seems to drop through ledges at the same speed...i haven't tested this with every single character though, so don't quote me yet),
EDIT: This is incorrect

and i tested falling speed with this.

Among other things, i discovered that Link and DK fall at pretty much the exact same speed. I have no way of seeing if this is frame perfect, but according to the human eye there's no difference in their speeds.

However, on Final Destination, Link dies from Fox's Upsmash at 100% and DK dies at 108%, meaning DK must weigh more and his weight is affecting the knockback. Now Fox's Upsmash isn't DIRECTLY vertical, and its possible that the slight horizontal of the knockback is what causes the weight to come into play, but its so slight i'm not sure.

Similarly, and perhaps a better example, Samus falls much slower than Kirby. But Kirby dies from Fox's upsmash at 82% on FD, and Samus dies from the same move at 97%. Fox falls much faster than them both, but he dies at the same percentage as Kirby. So its safe to conclude that Mew2King's method of calculating Fall Speed in Melee (calculating the percentage at which they die from a vertical attack), won't work in Brawl, and that the character weight affects vertical knockback.

I will continue doing tests and attempt to make a full list of every character's weight and fall speed.

 

[Lovage 805]

Interesting find, tanks for testing this out. Just make sure stale moves aren't effecting your testing.

 

[Umby]

I got confused a little. Are you implying that a specific character's falling speed are directly correlated to their weight?

 

[Mercury]

I got confused a little. Are you implying that a specific character's falling speed are directly correlated to their weight?

not necessarily, but it can effect how well they survive vertical death by things like juggling... right?

 

[Yuna]

Weight so did affect vertical knockback. A good 10-20% in Melee was worth tons. Peach is floatier than Kirby, yet she survives for longer. Why? Weight.

 

[Fastest]

Weight made a big difference in Melee.

The thing that made a bigger difference, however, was fall speed. Which would explain the Samus vs. Kirby scenario you describe. If you do the math you'll understand.

Fall speed isn't taken into account anymore.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Weight made a big difference in Melee.

The thing that made a bigger difference, however, was fall speed. Which would explain the Samus vs. Kirby scenario you describe. If you do the math you'll understand.

Fall speed isn't taken into account anymore.

Exactly.

Weight isn't more important, fall speed just makes less of a difference.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I got confused a little. Are you implying that a specific character's falling speed are directly correlated to their weight?

No, but incidentally in Brawl, character who weigh more GENERALLY fall faster, unlike melee, but some characters break the trend like Fox, who is light but falls fast, or samus who is heavy, but falls slow.
I'm just saying that unlike Melee, falling speed isn't the only factor that determines vertical knockback.

Weight so did affect vertical knockback. A good 10-20% in Melee was worth tons. Peach is floatier than Kirby, yet she survives for longer. Why? Weight.

Peach and Kirby's fall speed are nearly the same, so that's not much of a good example. And you're incorrect anyway. Vertically, they die at relatively the same percents, if not a 1 or 2 percent difference.

Consider that Bowser outweight Fox by A LOT, yet died much quicker vertically than Fox did. If weight matter even slightly, the difference wouldn't be so large.

Weight made a big difference in Melee.

The thing that made a bigger difference, however, was fall speed. Which would explain the Samus vs. Kirby scenario you describe. If you do the math you'll understand.

Fall speed isn't taken into account anymore.

Weight didn't make a big difference in terms of vertical knockback.

Fall speed does matter to some extent, but i'm not sure how much it matters at higher percentages. For example Fox is lighter than MetaKnight, but Fox is easier to juggle at low percentages, becaue he falls fast.

 

[Yuna]

Peach and Kirby's fall speed are nearly the same, so that's not much of a good example. And you're incorrect anyway. Vertically, they die at relatively the same percents, if not a 1 or 2 percent difference.

Consider that Bowser outweight Fox by A LOT, yet died much quicker vertically than Fox did. If weight matter even slightly, the difference wouldn't be so large.

I excluded the importance of falling speeds when? I simply stated that weight did matter in Melee. We just also had very differing falling speeds.

Instead, compare two characters with roughly the same falling speed but not the same weight.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I excluded the importance of falling speeds when? I simply stated that weight did matter in Melee. We just also had very differing falling speeds.

Instead, compare two characters with roughly the same falling speed but not the same weight.

Ok.
Pikachu and Pichu fall at the same speed in Melee. Pikachu is heavier than Pichu. They die at the same percentage vertically. if not a 1 or 2 percent difference.

Weight matters very very little in terms of vertical knockback on Melee. It matters, just not significantly.

 

[GAwes]

haha beast sig quote dood, see ya this summer

 

[shadydentist]

Here is a weight ranking in melee a la m2k's site


--- 117 --- (1) Bowser
--- 114 --- (2) DK
--- 110 --- (3) Samus
--- 109 --- (4) Ganondorf
--- 108 --- (5) Yoshi
--- 104 --- (6-7) Captain Falcon / Link
--- 100 --- (8-10) Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario
--- 94 --- (11) Ness
--- 90 --- (12-14) Peach / Sheik / Zelda
--- 88 --- (15) Ice Climbers
--- 87 --- (16) Marth
--- 85 --- (17-19) Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
--- 80 --- (20-21) Falco / Pikachu
--- 75 --- (22) Fox
--- 70 --- (23) Kirby
--- 60 --- (24-25) Jigglypuff / Mr. Game & Watch
--- 55 --- (26) Pichu

Weight did matter in melee. Falcon and Fox had very similar falling speeds (fox was a little faster), but Falcon gets vertically KO'd at a noticeably higher percentage.

 

[Yuna]

Ok.
Pikachu and Pichu fall at the same speed in Melee. Pikachu is heavier than Pichu. They die at the same percentage vertically. if not a 1 or 2 percent difference.

Weight matters very very little in terms of vertical knockback on Melee. It matters, just not significantly.

No they don't. What the heck are you basing this on?! Fox' Upsmash?

 

[theONEjanitor]

turn melee on and test it please.
(or look at m2k's page)

The reason that Fox lives longer than Falcon is because fox accelerates to his top fall speed MUCH quicker than anyone else in the game. This is why many combos that work on space animals don't work on Falcon. if their fall speed was so "similar" and especially if weight mattered, those combos would be possible

haha beast sig quote dood, see ya this summer

lol yeah, someone comes up with a new "advanced tech" every day. i'm like just play the game mane

 

[Fastest]

I should clarify that it's not max falling speed that made such a big difference in vertical KOs.

It's Acceleration.

Each frame the game does the following:

Acceleration = Gravity * Player Acceleration
Velocity = Velocity + Acceleration
Position = Position + Velocity

Just like real-world examples, acceleration is constantly applied to velocity. This is simulated physics however, so time jumps ahead in intervals of 1 frame.

When you're hit, the attack directly modifies Velocity. And that value is modified by character weight, attack strength, and character percent.

The problem with melee, however, was the application of weight was a one time dampening of the move's strength. Whereas acceleration happens *each frame*. So a character with very very fast acceleration, no matter what their maximum fall speed was, would cancel out vertical velocity faster than a character with slow acceleration.

 

[shadydentist]

The reason that Fox lives longer than Falcon is because....

Nonono, this is the OPPOSITE of what happens. Fox dies FIRST.

 

[Magus420]

OK. First let's look at Melee's falling speeds (Throws ignore weight. % that M2's u-throw KOs on DL64):

196 - Falco

188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon

165 - Roy > Donkey Kong

154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser

144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi

139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario

133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda

121 - Jigglypuff



Now this is how long they live vertically, using Captain Falcon's stomp on Final Destination as the measurement (version 1.0, and Fountain of Dreams was used in cases of a tie):

171 - Captain Falcon
170
169
168
167
166
165
164 - Donkey Kong
163
162
161
160
159
158
157 - Falco
156 - Bowser
155
154
153
152 - Ganondorf
151
150 - Link
149
148
147 - Yoshi > Fox
146
145
144
143
142
141 - Roy
140 - Sheik
139
138
137 - Dr Mario = Mario
136 - Samus > Marth
135 - Young Link
134 - Ness
133 - Luigi
132
131
130
129
128
127
126 - Ice Climbers = Pikachu
125
124 - Peach
123
122 - Zelda
121 - Mewtwo
120
119
118
117
116
115
114
113
112
111 - Kirby
110
109
108
107
106 - Pichu = Mr Game & Watch
105
104
103
102
101
100
099
098 - Jigglypuff

If you will remember, in Melee, character weight had almost no affect on vertical knockback, if any at all, for example, Samus was a heavy character, and Kirby was a very light character, but they still died vertically at about the same percentage.

Pikachu and Pichu fall at the same speed in Melee. Pikachu is heavier than Pichu. They die at the same percentage vertically. if not a 1 or 2 percent difference.

^^ What game were you playing?


Anyway, here's the Melee weight list, but with the warm/cold fall speed colors. Though there is more emphasis on fall speed, notice how generally the ones with the warmer colors that are also closer to the top here are the ones that live longer vertically:

117 - Bowser
116
115
114 - Donkey Kong
113
112
111
110 - Samus
109 - Ganondorf
108 - Yoshi
107
106
105
104 - Captain Falcon / Link
103
102
101
100 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario
099
098
097
096
095
094 - Ness
093
092
091
090 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda
089
088 - Ice Climbers
087 - Marth
086
085 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
084
083
082
081
080 - Falco / Pikachu
079
078
077
076
075 - Fox
074
073
072
071
070 - Kirby
069
068
067
066
065
064
063
062
061
060 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch
059
058
057
056
055 - Pichu

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Isn't average fall speed the most important when getting KO'd vertically, not top speed?

Iono, though.

 

[Magus420]

Acceleration matters VERY little when dying off the top was the point I was trying to make in that first sentence. You get up to speed very quickly so that only really makes a difference with very short knockbacks like when Ganon d-throws Fox (barely goes upwards at all) he'll hit the ground slightly sooner than Falco would. It's a rather short amount of time before the full amount of their fall speed is working against the upward knockback, which over time has a much larger impact than the brief delay to reach that amount.

 

[theONEjanitor]

There is apparently some game mechanic that I do not understand that involves throws vs. attacks. Much of what I assumed about vertical knockback is based on tests I did involving Mewtwo and Roy's upthrows. m2 kills pichu at 107% with his upthrow and kills Pikachu at 108% with the same move.

so forgive me i was going off of that

at any rate, it still is worth pointing out that fall speed and weight are handled differently in Brawl. I also believe that character in brawl accelerate to their top falling speeds slower than in melee.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, for whatever reason knockback and stun on throws in Melee are not affected by weight at all. Only fall speed matters for survival. Pichu for example survives Peach's f-throw to higher percents than Samus does.

Since throws ignored weight, they were a really good way to measure fall speed 'weight'. (M2's u-throw on DL64):

196 - Falco

188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon

165 - Roy > Donkey Kong

154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser

144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi

139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario

133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda

121 - Jigglypuff