Character Moveset Tweaking Status

[Ulevo]

If nana is sorta close to you, then you surely can not mash out at 35%. I've been grabbed at 15% by an ICs in tourney (out of trip, wasnt expecting, and nana was next to popo) and it started instantly. i lost that stock.

I've played Ambrose in tournament, and I can assure you that you can mash out in and around 30%.

while sure its not the most broken thing, and its a lil tougher to get off in b+, but come on, lets be realistic here. every other CG in the game doesn't lead to death. they all lead to combos or a medium amount of damage if done right. they depend on ur opponents DI.

Those CG's are also on characters that are not inherently flawed, or have requirements to perform other than getting a grab.

thats the beauty of melee and brawl+, people get off impressive combos with skill. if you consider getting a grab with ICs cool and impressive (albeit it can be tough in some situations but they have setups, especially with hitstun), then call me shocked. most combos can be broken with DI, being at certain percents, etc.

I wasn't aware we were basing our code modifications on improving the coolness factor in Brawl. Stop making irrelevant comments, it gives me more to quote than I need.

the ICs were a great character in melee even without wobbling

Hm. This isn't Melee. Fancy that?

(which was eventually banned!).

Temporarily, and only in specific states. As a SBR Member, I would expect you to know this.

why dont we remove this, and add other changes to the ICs to make them even better than they were before any of the changes?

Read again what it is you just said, and tell me if what you just said was stupid or not.

give them fast tilts (keeping them weak as they are now) to combo. theyr nice at juggling with uairs. test some grab knockbacks or lag to give them some good chaingrabs that are like other characters. maybe alter some of their specials a tad. make popo's fair meteor like nana's does. the ICs dont need the cg to be good.

It is a part of their flavour that the community has come to be familiar with. Our goal is to try and maintain that as best as possible, while improving the game along side this. If we change the flavour of a character, there has to be good reason for it. You have not provided good reasons for the exclusion of the Ice Climber Infinites, nor has anyone else.

Meta Knight doesn't need his Tornado, DSmash, Shuttle Loop, or Fair to be good. Lets take those away too.

i think many more ppl would prefer to have ICs be good with legitimate tactics

I would ask you to explain to me how the Ice Climber Infinites are not legitimate tactics, but I'm afraid of the answer.

over inescapable chaingrabs THAT MAKE THE OPPONENT LOSE ALL CONTROL OF THEIR CHARACTER (< the main point of me being against it)

Guess what Chibo? If you're smart, and play well, you won't lose control of your character. Hard to believe, isn't it.

 

[Alopex]

NOOOOOOO! Stop.

Either continue this via PM's or start a thread specifically for the discussion of the IC's. There as already about 10 pages worth of that discussion in kupo's thread.

PLEASE do not clog up this thread with that discussion because that discussion is irrelevant to this thread. Our current tools don't allow us to do anything about Alternating Grabs right NOW and this thread is only about the NOW.

 

[kupo15]

ok, dunno if this is the right thread or not, but since the frame speed mod affects hitboxes now, throw speed shoulnd't glitch. Whats everyones view on speeding it up globally by 1.1x when the new gecko comes out by shortfuse?

 

[CT Chia]

just got some hands on with shanus' new 4.0 beta

-bowser feels a lot nicer
i dont see mentions of it in the changelist, but:
-hitstun needs to be increased
-tech window needs to be smaller, its too easy right now
-did u add the camera code? i didnt see it in the changelist, but something seems different about it
-i would really like to see the other line of the replay hack back that shows the Z icon. if we have to wait till the next gecko is out, so be it, but its very nice to have.
-maybe increase shield stun just a lil bit, not much

i was playing against a lv9 cpu for this, which i kno they never DI right for combos or do the right things, but they attempt to escape stuff as fast as possible, and they were incredibly tough to combo this time than normally. either they found a way to airdodge sooner that we dont know, or there isn't enough stun. it was very tough to pull out a simple utilt utilt uair uair combo with mario before they could escape

 

[Revven]

Hitstun is already higher in shanus' beta 4.0 Chibo, it's set .4865 I believe. It's just the CPUs' gay defensive tactics fooling your mind! Shield stun is fine at where it is as well.

As for Bowser, I tried him online the other day with shanus' changes (like I asked for, faster Dtilt) and he was SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. OMG, Dtilt is JUST like I wanted it to be, faster endlag so he can't be punished for it (like Zard) and it KOs. Perfect. Utilt and Ftilt were pretty good and he's overall much better. Can't wait to try him out offline.

 

[Ulevo]

For the sake of proper testing, I'm not sure if we should be looking to try out character changes online. That doesn't really give us an accurate estimate of how a character competes offline, which is what we're mainly focusing on.

 

[CT Chia]

yea cpu's are hax lol
but if they have a way of getting out of combos crazy early, then that means humans could potentially find out how, and then we lose all the big combo ability weve been striving for. maybe theres a glitch in the hitstun?

 

[shanus]

For the sake of proper testing, I'm not sure if we should be looking to try out character changes online. That doesn't really give us an accurate estimate of how a character competes offline, which is what we're mainly focusing on.

I played as him for a fair amount yesterday. He plays perfectly. I'm 99% certain he doesn't need any more tweaks.

 

[Revven]

For the sake of proper testing, I'm not sure if we should be looking to try out character changes online. That doesn't really give us an accurate estimate of how a character competes offline, which is what we're mainly focusing on.

I know, I was just saying from preemptive play (this being online) he seemed okay. I haven't been able to play him offline yet (which I will if I have someone over).

 

[The Cape]

Hopefully I can get some testing in tomorrow when I have some more time. Need to try out new Boozer

 

[CT Chia]

playin around against cpus now. when i hook up my wireless router at hjome il try some online out later, but for now heres some notes:

camera is rly odd sometimes. i dont remember it being this bad. i just played on distant planet, and it was rly zoomed in most of the time, especially when the bug was on the screen. i could be at the edge of the screen and it wouldnt move to the left for me to see anything

hitstun still isnt right for some reason. i can barely follow up on things i was able to before. im gonna test an older b+ version then report back with my findings.

consider making mario fall a tad faster

edit
just went back a version and its the same. cpu's just hack i guess

 

[shanus]

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/Smashcodes/3-13-2009/US/

for you cape

 

[goodoldganon]

I just want to make sure we haven't forgotten about Ganondorf's Over-B being techable.

Anyway, this set feels great. Bowser is actually fun for me to play as now. Yoshi's shield seems nice but haven't had much testing with him. It's something to consider to allow eggs to be used faster. Helps recovery too.

Besides for the changes we talked about earlier I don't think there is really anything else worth speeding up.

 

[kupo15]

hitstun still isnt right for some reason. i can barely follow up on things i was able to before. im gonna test an older b+ version then report back with my findings.

Are you serious? I play on .48 hitstun and my combo game is excellent. I am having a hard time seeing why everyone is having trouble at >.485 when I'm doing just fine. Maybe people are lazy to not want to work for their good combos

I also agree that teching is too easy. I put it on 15 frames

 

[Ulevo]

Are you serious? I play on .48 hitstun and my combo game is excellent. I am having a hard time seeing why everyone is having trouble at >.485 when I'm doing just fine. Maybe people are lazy to not want to work for their good combos

I also agree that teching is too easy. I put it on 15 frames

The tumble code may be aiding you, but I am having difficulty with this as well. Combos that should connect simply are not, and opponents would air dodge or retaliate before the follow up.

 

[kupo15]

I assume you are not using the tumble codes then?

 

[Ulevo]

I assume you are not using the tumble codes then?

No. I've been downloading the codes from Shanus page as they update, which do not include the tumble codes.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ok, first off, there is no reason to reduce the teching window. The point of teching is that it should be a reflex. It isn't something you should have to work for to get right. The 20 frame window is fine.

Second, kupo, you can't give a fair comparison if you're at such a low hitstun value but are using the tumbel codes. This is exactly why the plussery set was created to begin with; so that we could all be testing the same set and be able to give fair analysis of what is or is not wrong with it. You're playing in a different environment than we are, so anything you have to say about how difficult or easy it is to escape combos is really a moot point.

 

[kupo15]

Ok, first off, there is no reason to reduce the teching window. The point of teching is that it should be a reflex. It isn't something you should have to work for to get right. The 20 frame window is fine.

Second, kupo, you can't give a fair comparison if you're at such a low hitstun value but are using the tumbel codes. This is exactly why the plussery set was created to begin with; so that we could all be testing the same set and be able to give fair analysis of what is or is not wrong with it. You're playing in a different environment than we are, so anything you have to say about how difficult or easy it is to escape combos is really a moot point.

15 is still a reflex and I fail to see how escaping this way has changed

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't see how you could argue that teching is "too easy" unless you're way fricking above the ground and are pressing R and it's teching. But it shouldn't be because characters don't fall that fast in brawl+. And no one ever complained that teching was "too easy" when playing as fast fallers in melee.

And you're playing using a setting where your escape is slightly delayed, as opposed to a setting where you can see "hey, they actually did leave hitstun for this combo which is supposed to be bread and butter." If you were in a setting where it is actually physically possible to escape the first frame possible like the rest of us, what you're saying might actually be relevant, but right now you're just breaking what should be legit combos because you're slow at getting the airdodge out.

 

[kupo15]

I don't see how you could argue that teching is "too easy" unless you're way fricking above the ground and are pressing R and it's teching. But it shouldn't be because characters don't fall that fast in brawl+. And no one ever complained that teching was "too easy" when playing as fast fallers in melee.

And you're playing using a setting where your escape is slightly delayed, as opposed to a setting where you can see "hey, they actually did leave hitstun for this combo which is supposed to be bread and butter." If you were in a setting where it is actually physically possible to escape the first frame possible like the rest of us, what you're saying might actually be relevant, but right now you're just breaking what should be legit combos because you're slow at getting the airdodge out.

Actually, teching should have more prevalence in my set because I can't frickin skip the teching situations like you can. I have to wiggle out before I skip the teching whereas you can just air dodge.

Besides, this doesn't moot me from the knowing if teching is too hard or easy because I still get spikes to the stage, to the ground and everything you get. Sonic is still a pain and forces techss left and right like yours. Your just being biased but this does in no way shape or form prove that what I have to say is irrelevant. You make it sound like I'm not even using the hitstun code.

 

[Alopex]

Did I end up making the "General B+ Back Room Discussion" thread?

Anyway, I edited the OP with the following:

*Added the Bowser tweaks and consequently removed them from "Needed Tweaks". Removed the "Debatable Adjustment" on Charizard's Ftilt. Edited the tweaks on Ganon's jab to reflect recent change.*



Now, let's keep moving forward with proper discussions, shall we?

1)
One thing I haven't seen anyone discuss here yet is speeding up Dodges/Rolls.

One look at this thread and you'll get a pretty good idea of which Dodges could really use the help:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510

Just look at (not surprisingly) poor Bowser. Or even DK. Those guys have far more vulnerability frames than the average roster member. That's something that's easily fixed with the Frame Mod if we deem it necessary.


2)
We need to move forward with the "Uncertain" characters.

Let's start with the IC's. For the sake of discussing their moveset and ONLY their moveset, start by imagining that they don't have CG's OR Alternate Throws. Think only of their tilts, smashes, aerials, etc.

If you were to play using only that, then what could use improvement? *Is* there something that needs improvement? How are their Tilts? Do they need to be better? Etc, etc.

We need to get ourselves into that mindset so that we can determine how much help their moveset needs, if any.

I don't think anyone here is an IC's main, though. I certainly am not, so we might need to take this to outside sources. Ask people like Orca, perhaps.

 

[goodoldganon]

Why I'm up at 5:15 is beyond me (oh right, Madworld lulz) but I don't know about changing spot dodging animations. If anything, I'd make a blanket change that made them VERY slightly less spammable. Anyway, it just doesn't seem all that neccessary. Maybe we can go ahead for Bowser, cause of the defensive playstyle, but DK is fine. Big characters aren't meant to be fast dodgers. Meh I'm rambling and it's tired I'll be back tomorrow to either clean this up or see what others said.

On another note, let's stay on topic guys. If there is a problem with hitstun bring it up in Shanus beta topic, or I guess Leaf opened one. This topic is about changing the speed of moves. kkthxbye