Character Moveset Tweaking Status

[Alopex]

*This is not a thread where anything physics related will be discussed. This is strictly for the character-specific moveset tweaks we have/need to do with the Frame Mod. It's not for tier discussion either, it's just about evaluating the movesets of each character. Furthermore, this is a thread for discussing things that we can currently modify NOW - we can't modify KB now so there's no point in discussing it here.*

With line space still being an issue, we need to organize ourselves into knowing what we've given to each character, and what characters are currently really needing to be prioritized for tweaks, and also what characters still need to be more thoroughly discussed.
Since we can't affect KB, frame speed is the main candidate for moveset tweaking. This of course is done via the Frame Mod. While physics changes are important, they won't be taking up any more lines than they already do, meanwhile each thing we want to alter with the Frame Mod is one more line we need to add.

So I'm making this thread to help us to document the tweaks we've already done, figure out the tweaks we still need to do, organize tweak implementation via character priority, and discuss what implemented tweaks might need readjustment. Readjustments are essentially modifying things that we have implemented in the past.

There are a lot of specific moves that could use tweaking for the betterment of the move itself and for the respective character that uses it. To keep this list unbiased, I will list any move that can be seen as sub par in a character's moveset, even if the character itself is already good enough as is. It is better to list everything and then prioritize than to purposely let something go unmentioned. It's best to be fully aware than oblivious at all. It doesn't mean everything listed has to be implemented, it's just there to make sure everyone is aware of what can be improved.

I am well aware that we can't make every change on this list. That's the whole point of this list. It is to help us determine and prioritize which changes, which characters really deserve those coveted lines.

The OP will consist of my observations both from playtesting and from reading opinions voiced by you guys and others who are playing Brawl+. It might not all be accurate after discussion begins, so I'll edit it as needed for accuracy pending your inputs.

List is alphabetical.


TWEAK LIST

Bowser
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: Thick Skin, ALR 40%, Utilt cooldown 1.5x faster, Dtilt cooldown 2x faster, Ftilt 1.2x faster entirely, 50% UpB landing lag, 23 frame grab break.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Captain Falcon
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: ALR 40%.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Charizard
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: Ftilt wind-down after hitbox is 1.75x faster.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Diddy
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Fixing the No ASL issue with his recovery would be nice, but highly unlikely at this point.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Donkey Kong
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Boosting his UpB for the purposes of recovery has been suggested.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Falco
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Fox
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Ganondorf
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: Jab is 1.5x faster, SideB frames after hitbox are 1.25x faster.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Ice Climbers
Current status: Uncertain
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Uncertain. They still have their grab game and there has not been much talk concerning their needs otherwise.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Ike
Current status: Likely Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Not much has been going around concerning Ike. ALR 50% seems to have given him enough of a boost, his Dtilt could maybe use a mild wind-down reduction.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Ivysaur
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: ALR 30%, SideB wind-down after leaf is shot is 1.5x faster.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: SideB is now ridiculously spammable when you consider that the leaves have the unique property of continuing through most other projectiles after a collision - it should be fine with a lower wind-down speed up such as 1.33x instead.

Jigglypuff
Current status: Pretty Much Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Faster Sing would make the move more useful - I tested it with 60% of the frames (1.66x) and the move was immediately better. Rest could maybe use a wind-down reduction. Her Utilt could use a faster start-up to allow it to be a more reliable combo starter.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

King Dedede
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: His DownB got more useful with No ASL, but it's still a pretty overlooked move. A slightly faster Jab would give Dedede more choice than just his grab when in close combat.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Kirby
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Link
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: ALR 35%, increased vertical height on his UpB.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Lucario
Current status: Likely Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: The reduced hitlag lag of Brawl+ makes his DownB attack easily shielded/Perfect Shielded when used against attacks with little wind-down. To counter-balance this consequence, we should reduce the move's wind-down. There really hasn't been much talk regarding Lucario, though.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Lucas
Current status: Likely Fine
Tweaks received: Standing Grab is 1.5x faster after hitbox, Utilt is 1.35x faster.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Personally, I find that ALR 40% really goes a long way to complete him.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Luigi
Current status: Likely Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Not much talk has revolved around Luigi. Doesn't seem like he really needs anything, though. Maybe his Fireballs could use a little help?
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Mario
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Giving his Dtilt less wind-down has been suggested in order to make the move more combo-worthy.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Marth
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: His Utilt could use less wind-down time so that Marth can actually follow-up after it.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Meta Knight
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: Flimsy Armour, Dsmash has more wind-down.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Meta Knight is seen as overpowered by most, but the main issues brought up can only be taken care of with a KB code.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Mr. Game & Watch
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: ALR 75%.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Ness
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Olimar
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Peach
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Pikachu
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Pit
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

R.O.B.
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Samus
Current status: Needs Help
Tweaks received: Both SideBs (Missiles) have lower wind-down.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Even though KO power is the crux of her problem, perhaps speeding up some of her finishers like Fsmash and (if possible) Bair would help tide us over and make her better until a KB code comes out? Lowering the wind-down of her Dtilt would help her combo more out of it, so it's something else we can look into.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

:shiek:Sheik
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Snake
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Sonic
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: His Utilt could use a wind-down reduction to allow Sonic to follow-up after it. The Homing Attack could use a faster start-up and faster wind-down to make it more usable in combos and also less easily punished, respectively.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Squirtle
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Her SideB is still a seldom used move that might benefit from a start-up speed up. Her Dsmash is still a neglected smash attack and could maybe use a speed up to bring it up to par.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Toon Link
Current status: Likely Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: There hasn't really been much talk regarding Toon Link, but it seems like he is pretty solid. I made his Bombs come out 1.33x faster and I think it really completes the character. Just sayin'.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Wario
Current status: Likely Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: There hasn't been much talk about Wario, but it seems like he's doing alright for himself. Maybe his Dsmash could use a wind-down reduction. His Dtilt could also use a wind-down reduction.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Wolf
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: None.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Yoshi
Current status: Needs Help
Tweaks received: Comes out of shield 2x faster.
Debatable Tweaks needed: His specials can all use some help. Speeding up the wind-down of his Eggs could really help him the way it helped Ivysaur's Leaf and could possibly even help his recovery. His SideB is still a fairly useless move, and speeding up the start-up time could give it a needed boost. His NeutralB isn't used by anyone and reducing its wind-down would make it more viable. Having lost his release CG and having a fairly short range compared to other ranged grabs, Yoshi's standing grab could use a wind-down reduction in the vein of Lucas.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Zelda
Current status: Uncertain
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: Like the IC's, Zelda is a character that is almost entirely unchanged from vBrawl in both playstyle and physics (that is: very defensive), and no one has really said much of anything regarding what she needs in Brawl+, which is a more offensive game.
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

Zero Suit Samus
Current status: Fine
Tweaks received: None.
Debatable Tweaks needed: The hitlag reduction of Brawl+ makes her NeutralB's stun properties very difficult to take advantage of before it wears out. To remedy this, the move should be given a slight wind-down reduction upon firing the ray. Enough to let her use it better for combo setups (the purpose it served in vBrawl), but not enough to let her spam it (which would be ridiculous).
Debatable Readjustments needed: None.

 

[goodoldganon]

I haven't tested Ganon with the new setup, but if you can indeed tech the flame choke that NEEDS to be fixed. If we can't make it untechable then the move HAS to have a guaranteed d-tilt followup on the cast.

I'll look at the other characters and try and come up with something, if it's truly necessary. I'm sorry but I'm kinda peeved about Dorf. I know finally see why DS has been so pissed with Sonic's Dashes with Momentum...

 

[Alopex]

That was why the wind-down speed was increased to 1.25x from 1.2x. Ideally, the Choke should be like G&W's Dthrow, guaranteed hit on most of the cast unless you tech it. It would even be interesting if the wind-down ended fast enough to Dsmash someone if they didn't tech. But that's just ideas for a compromise in case teching the choke can't be fixed. But yeah, we've taken that into consideration.

 

[shanus]

Ganon, I posted it on the other thread. At 1.25x, he has guaranteed hits in all tech directions unless frame perfect shielded on the forward tech. We could bring this to 1.27 if you want it to be a hit.

 

[Revven]

I haven't tested Ganon with the new setup, but if you can indeed tech the flame choke that NEEDS to be fixed. If we can't make it untechable then the move HAS to have a guaranteed d-tilt followup on the cast.

It's true, his Side B is easily techable even ONLINE! (Gasp!) It definitely needs to be fixed in some way or another.

Also, I think you should add to Jigglypuff's repertoire that her Utilt needs a faster startup, it is SOOOO SLOOOOOOWWWWWWW you can barely combo anything off of it.

 

[goodoldganon]

I posted in the other thread too. We'll have the discussion in here, there seems to be other things going on in that topic Shanus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanus View Post
Yes murder choke can be tech'd due to the new code. However, Yeroc tested this. If they tech without rolling, guaranteed jab, If they tech backwards, guaranteed ftilt or dash attack. Forwards, frame perfect to avoid the wizard kick. Its awesome tech chasing.

Also Ulevo, frame data on bowser fortress:

If you do it out of shield perfectly: frames 1-5 invulnerable, 6 hitbox comes out. No tweak needed there

Oh boy. Excuse my sarcasm but that's not what made the move good. What made it good was the d-tilt that followed into aerial rapeage. The Murder Choke is slow and predictable. You have to bait into it. A f-tilt/dash attack/ lolfoot won't cut it. The 9% is RARELY going to make the difference between a KO or not, and people are always going to learn no NEVER tech backwards since those are the only ones to mildly fear.

Excuse my anger, I don't want to be rude to the wrong person or come off as ungrateful for all the hardwork you have done, but certainly you see my point?

 

[leafgreen386]

I agree with GOG. This really ruins his murder choke. Who cares if you can get one of those moves off if you predict them? None of them are that punishing, except maybe the dash attack/ftilt, but then they just learn not to tech behind you. They eat a jab or wizkick, but that's it. It's not gonna kill them, and it's not gonna combo them, either. In almost every situation in which you could sideB, there would be a better option, as it does have fairly noticeable startup lag. A lot of ganon's moves already encourage teching, but there is almost no incentive to use this over... er... well, anything else in your arsenal when chasing that tech. The guaranteed dtilt against all the characters that it worked against was huge, and is ultimately what made the move useful (as well as the guaranteed ftilt against the characters that that worked against). The point of the game is to use moves that combo into moves that lead into edgeguards or moves that lead into techchases into moves that lead into edgeguards, and any combination of the two. Jabs and wizkicks don't send you far enough to edgeguard except at high percents, and I'd much rather combo into a fair than to try to techchase someone for a jab/wizkick, which is not only easier but also more rewarding.

 

[Almas]

I think the tech code still needs some tweaking that spunit is going to get around to soon enough. For example I don't believe he's included a failure window at this point (so holding L works). It -probably- won't be too hard to check that the character is in the tumble animation when the timer input is checked, too, to make it so that you can't tech a move that hasn't hit you yet (although I realise this was part of the concept behind ledgeteching).

 

[goodoldganon]

Initial Testing

Ganon's new jab is so bad it's laughable. The fast jab we had before was fine. Sure, it wasn't able to beat a few jabs but it had a better purpose then beating jabs. Once it was out you could use it as a pseudo-barrier if someone shielded it. Once Ganon started jabbing your shield he could just spam it. From all my experience there was no character who could drop shield fast enough to break the spam. They had to roll away or take a pimp smack. Ganon could react accordingly to rolling.

I will admit the Flame Choke is tougher to tech then I figured it would be, but with some practice I was getting it 75-80% of the time. Not hard to learn for the little time I spent. My question is: was Ganon really that powerful that he had the guaranteed D-tilt against the cast, which led to some admittedly sick combos. The Flame Choke and that d-tilt follow up is one of his best options.

Yes, it predictable, slow, and a hunk of other poor properties, but the payout WAS outstanding. 60% COMBOS weren't unheard of.

Now what? I can hit them with a lolfoot. (The wizard's foot is garbage in Brawl. It's not the Train it was in melee) Or how about I f-tilt them so that Ganon has to chase after his opponent all while giving them space at the time. Ganon isn't fast and he is easy to camp. A decent setup for a KO but that requires your opponent to moronically tech behind you.

Jab isn't gonna do anything except push someone farther away from you and tack on it's laughable damage. So that leaves the dash attack, which is an admittedly decent option but who cares, once people figure that out they'll just tech up or forward, not backwards.

(Lighthearted from here)
Almost above all else, we have to remember what this means to the character from a diversity standpoint. Like Leaf said there is really no reason to use the over-b anymore and that is THE move that defines Ganondorf. It's like stripping Dr. Mario of the stun on his pills. He then just becomes a really lame close. Except unlike Dr. Mario this is the MOTHER ****ING KING OF EVIL, GANONDORF! He already deserves his own moveset more than ANY other clone in this game and stripping him of the Murder Choke is like rubbing salt in the wound.
(End lighthearted)

Almas says we might be trying to get a fix for the code soon, so maybe that will fix this problem, but we'll see. Two things. What happened that suddenly made this move techable. As Leaf said a while back, it has 0 launch value. Seems weird. I propose a ghetto fix to this problem. Any serious vBrawl Dorf knows that the D-tilt followup was weird in that you could only do it if you held down about halfway. Try this.

Turn your sound up and hold down with Ganondorf. Hear that manly armor movement? Now do a d-tilt while holding down the whole way. You should still hear that armor. Now do it again but hold down only about halfway down. BAM no armor noise. For some reason Ganondorf crouching takes time and when you do a full down on the stick he has to go through that animation. So basically, I propose that Ganon is able to move just fast enough so he can do that half-down tilt I'm talking about. Of course a little leway should be given so it's not frame perfect, but we don't want to be able to F-smash out of the Murder Choke...or do we?

Either way, the set feels all right besides this major gripe. I don't want to come off as ungrateful for the set or any work you put into this. Hopefully this essay can help us solve this problem, or at least see why this HAS to be changed.

 

[Ulevo]

I have to agree with Lg and goodoldganon on this one. Murder Choke combos are a fundamental piece of Ganondorfs gameplay, and simply placing a mediocre followup that requires prediction in its place isn't enough to compensate for what he lost.

Also, I'd like to note, Bowser, Jigglypuff and Link are not fine.

 

[leafgreen386]

@Almas: No. Don't do that. We want it to be able to register a tech before you've been hit. Whatever the special animation that ganon's sideB puts them in needs to be made so they can't tech it. It simply can't be a regular tumble animation... if ganon sideBs you over a ledge, you'll grab it as you're going down... I didn't think you could grab the ledge while you were in tumble.

 

[Alopex]

Also, I'd like to note, Bowser, Jigglypuff and Link are not fine.

You're going to need to get more specific.

EDIT: Nevermind on the Bowser explanation, though. I just read your post on the 4.0 Patch Notes thread. Quite frankly, your demands go far and beyond what can currently be accomplished, especially with the line space. You're pretty much suggesting a complete overhaul of an entire character. That's a long shot. Bowser already has the most tweaks out of anyone in the cast. With such limited line space it's hard to justify giving him even more when there are other characters who haven not received much of anything yet and are in need. Characters like Yoshi. The 40% ALR was all Bowser needed and with it now he's definitely fine as he is. He may not be ideal, he's definitely not up to your standards, but he's viable. That's all we can ask given our restraints.

 

[goodoldganon]

Enough about my man crush with Ganondorf. Here are the character moveset tweaks that are left.

Snake
Slightly less knockback on the F-tilt and a reduction in his weight. (Not a moveset change, but figured it was applicable)

Lucario
A little more knockback on the u-tilt to prevent another Sheik F-tilt

Sheik
F-tilt fix

Peach
Can she please be able to grab on backwards?

Those are the only ones that came to my mind that you didn't mention.

 

[Alopex]

But... but... I didn't mention them for a reason...

We... can't do any of them yet. I specifically mentioned why KB isn't being discussed in the OP. It's because we don't have the code nor the space.

I'm talking the NOW. What can be done NOW to make sure our restricted set is as balanced as it can be right NOW. KB stuff can't be done now. We don't even know how we would fit it in when it comes out. That's why I'm pretty much just dealing with things that we know how to do.

In light of that, I'm going to remove the mentions of Oli's and Ivy's UpB, since it can't be done at the moment.

EDIT: Maybe I should change the title? You're not likely to be the only one who will skip the paragraphs at the start.
So... what? Frame Mod Character Tweaking? It's just that UpB heights aren't done with the Frame Mode but I include them here because they can be done NOW. Heh.

 

[Ulevo]

You're going to need to get more specific.

EDIT: Nevermind on the Bowser explanation, though. I just read your post on the 4.0 Patch Notes thread. Quite frankly, your demands go far and beyond what can currently be accomplished, especially with the line space. You're pretty much suggesting a complete overhaul of an entire character. That's a long shot. Bowser already has the most tweaks out of anyone in the cast. With such limited line space it's hard to justify giving him even more when there are other characters who haven not received much of anything yet and are in need. Characters like Yoshi. The 40% ALR was all Bowser needed and with it now he's definitely fine as he is. He may not be ideal, he's definitely not up to your standards, but he's viable. That's all we can ask given our restraints.

I refuse to make suggestions based on our current limitations, because that in turn only restrains the potential for Brawl Plus and what it can accomplish. I realize our current predicament, but I highly doubt we will be restricted to 256 lines for very long, given our need for an expansion and the commitment out community has for improvement. ShortFuse is currently working on a fix, and I am confident he or someone else just as suitable will make that happen.

That said, I made these suggestions because Bowser does need an overhaul of his entire character. At high level play, I'm pretty confident he will get slaughtered the way he currently is now. You can tell me he is "fine", but in reality your guess is on how he contends at high level play is no more concrete the the rest of the Brawl Plus community, which at this point in time is lacking sufficient results and data to draw from.

I will only accept that a character is "fine" when he/she is capable of reasonably competing against any other character in the roster. You pick up Bowser against a good Meta Knight in Brawl Plus and tell me what happens. And I highly doubt it will be on the fault of how good Meta Knight is either.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6902465&postcount=30

This is for Jiggs. I will post more on Link when I have a proper train of thought on his character.

Edit: I sort of just realized that your intent in the opening post was the help promote changes we can currently make given our line restraints and circumstances. My bad. My opinion still applies, it's just not entirely appropriate for what is being discussed here. I'm too lazy to retype an explanation however, so just ignore it.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ok then so I messed up by missreading the OP. Back to Ganondorf, I have an odd suggestion.

With the buffer system Ganon's Thunderstorm is put at a pretty big disadvantage because I believe it requires frame perfect timing. It was a huge part of his vBrawl game and it still is. Any chance in a slight increase in it's speed to make it a little more accommodating? I'm talking a 3-5 frame faster difference, not something like a 20% increase.

 

[Alopex]

Yeah, my goal here is to get our characters as balanced as we can NOW so that we can release a true standard SOON.

Our most powerful balancing tool right now is the Frame Mod and the physics stuff. The Frame Mod takes one line for every modification. This is crunch time, we need to make the best use of those lines.

We can't keep dragging this on much longer. We need to have this done by summer if we really want a scene to start.
We need to establish ourselves some deadlines now that we have the foundation pretty well set. We can't keep waiting for Gecko2.0 or whatever ShortFuse is working on. In order to hold people's interests and not look like we're just dangling a carrot on a stick, we need to work in the NOW.

That's what I'm using this thread for.


EDIT: @goodoldganon

The one-line buffer being used in Shanus' current set is wonky. It's not executing instant aerials properly. I've already discussed this with Shanus.
Pop in the old 16-line buffer code and set it to 1 frame. You'll get the instant aerials back just how they were in vBrawl. And that's at 1 frame, while the one-liner fails to do that at *2* frames buffer. So you know it's not just your input if your input works at 1 frame in one code but not at 2 frames on another.
So yeah, it's not the reduced buffer itself, it's the one-liner code.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Since you said nobody suggested how to improve homing attack...I'll do it (not that he needs it).

Homing attack really just has to much lag on both ends of it. It can't be combo'd into, it's horribly safe on whiff or on block (there's litterally enough time for Lucas to upsmash him out of shield in vBrawl!!!. I'm not saying it should be completely safe in either of these cases but....Lucas up smash?

And if we get more codespace...it would really help if the tracing system was actually player controlled (at least when another character is in range for the lock on). It's homing system is terrible (it always tries to go around them and aim for their back)

But Sonic doesn't really need buffs atm. He just needs his B move momentum fix (which I still have heard no word on )

 

[leafgreen386]

We shouldn't be restrained by what we can do now. We have shortfuse working on the expanded gecko for brawl+, which means a lot of the changes we want to make aren't that far off.

 

[goodoldganon]

We shouldn't be restrained by what we can do now. We have shortfuse working on the expanded gecko for brawl+, which means a lot of the changes we want to make aren't that far off.

I agree but also disagree. I don't want to put out an unfinished, unpolished project but at the same time the pessimist in me feels we should think/brace for the worst. Also, one big negative about the project I hear is the time it's taking. MLG dropped vBrawl, how long do you think people will stick around here with the grim hope for vBrawl? If Smashboard numbers start to drop we'll lose our biggest advertisement.

I don't know. I'm thinking pessimistically, and I really do have the utmost faith in Shortfuse, but we need and should have a contingency plan.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^MLG dropping vBrawl wasn't taken that negatively actually. Sure we were a little peeved, but everyone realized that MLG is mostly focusing on shooters now.

 

[goodoldganon]

^^MLG dropping vBrawl wasn't taken that negatively actually. Sure we were a little peeved, but everyone realized that MLG is mostly focusing on shooters now.

Really? Goes to show how in touch I am with vBrawl.

 

[Alopex]

@leaf
But I covered that. We don't know how long that'll take. He already said he's having problems with it. He says it should be easy to fix, but we don't know how long it'll really take and we have to stop thinking that we can just prolong this project for as long as we want until it satisfies all of us completely.

If I recall correctly, the Back Room and the betas were established to fast-track the creation of a standard. But things are going slower than ever now because we refuse to accept our restraints and instead just keep waiting.

We have to stop dangling the carrot and that's what I'm trying to do.
I don't want this to be like we're waiting for a bus, and then you stand there waiting for a while but it doesn't show up. Instead of leaving you think "Hey, I've been waiting a while, it's gotta be coming soon". So you wait longer and the other people on the bus stop start to walk away but you're all like "I can't leave now! It's totally gonna come any second since I've waited this long!" **** that, I'd rather walk. I would've been there by now. You know?

EDIT: @ganon
Did you see my previous edit concerning the buffer?

 

[goodoldganon]

Ya, I assume you were playing with Ganon on the old 1 frame buffer correct?

It obviously isn't FRAME perfect since there is that whole 1 frame you can't do anything after jumping, but it's **** close. I don't know, it's just tougher for the sake of being tougher. We all agree that 1 or 2 frame buffer tightens the controls up and what not, but Ganon is the only character I find less fluid on that 1 or 2 frame buffer.

I know I know learn the character yada yada but it is just such a chore to do the Thunderstorm consistently on the 1 or 2 frame buffer. It's not a dire important change, but I think it would go a long way to making him a more user friendly characters. We are tight on lines, but if we have the lines will speeding his d-air up by 3-5 frames suddenly make him too good?

Long story short it's a convenience issue more so then a balancing issue.

 

[Alopex]

Playing with Ganon on the old 16-line 1 frame buffer and playing him in vBrawl both felt the same to me in terms of instant aerials, particularly the Thunderstorm. It did not feel like that with the 1-line code.
You can also notice that with Zelda.

You feel the lowered fluidity even on the 16-line code?

 

[goodoldganon]

I'll openly admit the only night I had used the 16 liner was when I was drunk. The 1 frame buffer I used before was like a 1 or 2 liner. Not sure. Truth is I get a lot of new people to try this game so I just use the 10 buffer. That and the 10 buffer is nice for FFAs.

 

[CT Chia]

for ike make him run a tad faster and make his ftilt faster. everything else is fine for now.

for bowser make his tilts faster

sonics homing attack is fine. make his nair better

make snakes fair have a lil less cooldown lag

tornado on mk is broken. i dont remember how broken it was with the nado nerf code, but its bad now. like rly bad. some characters have 0 optons for it

yoshi doesnt rly need much help. hes just odd to use. a good yoshi is still awesome. the shiled change could make him fine.

remove ICs infinite

 

[goodoldganon]

So it occurred to me Alopex. Wouldn't it just be easier to speed up Ganon's D-air by 3-5 frames instead of going back to a 16 line code. We are tight on space, seems like the most space conscious solution. Just thinking 'aloud'.

 

[Ulevo]

for ike make him run a tad faster and make his ftilt faster. everything else is fine for now.

for bowser make his tilts faster

sonics homing attack is fine. make his nair better

make snakes fair have a lil less cooldown lag

tornado on mk is broken. i dont remember how broken it was with the nado nerf code, but its bad now. like rly bad. some characters have 0 optons for it

yoshi doesnt rly need much help. hes just odd to use. a good yoshi is still awesome. the shiled change could make him fine.

remove ICs infinite

Please care to elaborate on why the IC's Infinites need to be altered, removed or modified in any which way? I've been through this too many times, and I'm tired of repeating myself. And I don't want to hear any of this "broken" crap. I want actual reasons with statistical proof on why this is in fact a problem worth fixing that will otherwise ruin the experience of any skilled player fighting an opposing Ice Climbers.

 

[goodoldganon]

Please care to elaborate on why the IC's Infinites need to be altered, removed or modified in any which way? I've been through this too many times, and I'm tired of repeating myself. And I don't want to hear any of this "broken" crap. I want actual reasons with statistical proof on why this is in fact a problem worth fixing that will otherwise ruin the experience of any skilled player fighting an opposing Ice Climbers.

no no NO NO

If we need a debate on the ICs we can open a topic on the other forum. (I agree with you btw Ulevo)

On another note in the livestream people were saying Wario is kinda one dimensional and boring. Too much D-air and F-air. He's good as he is, but to get some variety in his ground game should we speed up the D-tilt or the U-tilt? Or maybe both?

If someone wants to give me the action ID for those two attacks I can try and set up a code that buffs their speed.

 

[shanus]

We shouldn't be restrained by what we can do now. We have shortfuse working on the expanded gecko for brawl+, which means a lot of the changes we want to make aren't that far off.

We also don't want to make too many changes either. I think of Gecko OS 2.0 as a blessing and a curse. I kinda wish we just had like 300 or 350 lines. I'm worried otherwise we might go overboard

 

[goodoldganon]

We also don't want to make too many changes either. I think of Gecko OS 2.0 as a blessing and a curse. I kinda wish we just had like 300 or 350 lines. I'm worried otherwise we might go overboard

Agreed, they are called weakness for a reason.

 

[shanus]

BTW, I did a lot of playing last night (esp. after everyone sobered up, although I TOTALLY did not not our laptop broadcast ran out of batteries). I did some nice ganon singles and doubles much later on and I have to say I kinda liked the techable murder choke tech chase game. I had so much fun mindgaming/techchasing it :D


Also, Wario is dirty right now.

BTW, did you guys get to see my epic 1v2 comeback when I was down 1 stock to 3 stocks as MK? And when I 1v2'd as wario as well. Too good.

 

[CT Chia]

no no NO NO

If we need a debate on the ICs we can open a topic on the other forum. (I agree with you btw Ulevo)

On another note in the livestream people were saying Wario is kinda one dimensional and boring. Too much D-air and F-air. He's good as he is, but to get some variety in his ground game should we speed up the D-tilt or the U-tilt? Or maybe both?

If someone wants to give me the action ID for those two attacks I can try and set up a code that buffs their speed.

increasing dtilt speed would be good. i would hold off on the utilt for now


as for ICs, isn't it safe to say that its a pretty ridiculous technique? once you get grabbed you lose full control of your character, and get 0-deathed easily by anyone who has practiced it. sure it may be tough to get a grab off as ICs if ur opponent is careful, but full death from one grab? this isnt regular brawl where we have to worry about banning or not banning it. this is brawl+, we have control of the game. we should take it out (i mean why was jab and laser locks taken out? same reason, and ICs infinite is worse) and then buff ICs in other ways to make them better. they can be good without the cg! we have the power to make it happen lol

 

[Alopex]

So it occurred to me Alopex. Wouldn't it just be easier to speed up Ganon's D-air by 3-5 frames instead of going back to a 16 line code. We are tight on space, seems like the most space conscious solution. Just thinking 'aloud'.

Because it's not just the Dorf that's suffering. It's Zelda too and others. I'm having a b*tch of a time doing SH LK's with Zelda like I used to in vBrawl/16-line code. It's really hurting. At this point, if we can't go back to the 16-line buffer code (and we pretty much can't), I'd rather have no buffer code at all. The one-liner just isn't a good code.

for ike make him run a tad faster and make his ftilt faster. everything else is fine for now.

for bowser make his tilts faster

sonics homing attack is fine. make his nair better

make snakes fair have a lil less cooldown lag

tornado on mk is broken. i dont remember how broken it was with the nado nerf code, but its bad now. like rly bad. some characters have 0 optons for it

yoshi doesnt rly need much help. hes just odd to use. a good yoshi is still awesome. the shiled change could make him fine.

remove ICs infinite

Alright good stuff.

Ike: I know we had a dash speed increase code, but what happened to it? I don't think it's being used at the moment. We could use it to increase Ike's dash speed, but how many lines is the code?
I also think his dash attack could use some speeding up in both start-up and wind-down.
As for Ftilt, you think it needs to be overall faster or just start-up, just wind-down...? It's a pretty powerful move with a long range, so we have to watch how we handle it.

Bowser: I'm not certain that he really needs more speed ups after the ALR 40%. We decreased the wind-down of his Utilt already, though.

Sonic: We can't change individual aerial attacks, though. For whatever reason, it's all or nothing...

Snake: Same as above.

MK: We could... give it some more start-up lag or increase its landing lag? I'm inclined to give it start-up lag. Make it a high risk high reward type of move. Right now it's just high reward.

Yoshi: Eh, it's mainly that his options are still very limited. He needs to rely on the same tricks, the same combos, to be effective because he is incapable of using his specials for variety. That makes him fairly predictable.
We've made him come out of his shield faster, but being incapable of jumping out of his shield and having that terribly slow grab still limits his out of shield options, so I think decreasing his grab's wind-down like we did with Lucas would help him out there. Yoshi's moveset is otherwise pretty solid, though he could use a more reliable kill move. Maybe a faster Fsmash.

IC: Woo boy that's a can of worms. I'm not going near it again. In either way, that's not something we can deal with at the moment because the issue there is Nana, and we don't know how to change anything about her. She doesn't have her own character ID.

 

[shanus]

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/Smashcodes/3-13-2009/US/

Bowser is too **** in this set. I'm serious. He is awesomely good.

 

[Alopex]

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/Smashcodes/3-13-2009/US/

Bowser is too **** in this set. I'm serious. He is awesomely good.

Didn't that take you up to the line limit?

I mean, there's no question that Bowser would benefit from all his tilts being sped up, like you did in that set, but then we can't do anything to anyone else unless we remove a code.

EDIT: Also, 2x faster Dtilt wind-down? That means the move only has about 11 frames of wind-down. That's ridiculously fast.

EDIT2: Added Bowser F and D tilts to the OP. Added Wario Dtilt to the OP. Added Lucario Dtilt to the OP. Added Jigglypuff Utilt to the OP. Sonic Homing Attack needs has been reworded in the OP.

 

[shanus]

It might be a bit too steep. It has nice shield pressure though. I'm willing to turn it down of course or not include it at all, but try it out and lemme know

 

[Ulevo]

as for ICs, isn't it safe to say that its a pretty ridiculous technique? once you get grabbed you lose full control of your character, and get 0-deathed easily by anyone who has practiced it. sure it may be tough to get a grab off as ICs if ur opponent is careful, but full death from one grab? this isnt regular brawl where we have to worry about banning or not banning it. this is brawl+, we have control of the game. we should take it out (i mean why was jab and laser locks taken out? same reason, and ICs infinite is worse) and then buff ICs in other ways to make them better. they can be good without the cg! we have the power to make it happen lol

Why would you ban a technique that is not only the stronghold of the character in question (which might I add, isn't dominating), but isn't broken in the first place? Please explain that to me.

It isn't as simple as getting the grab off either. So what, you've been grabbed by Popo. Before 35% roughly, you can mash out. Maybe higher if you know how to properly. Lets assume you get grabbed by Popo at a higher percent. Is Nana alive? Is she nearby?

Lets also look at the facts. Ice Climbers were not dominating in tournaments in vBrawl. In fact, very few players even performed well with them, outside of Lain and Ambrose, save a few others. And what did they have? That had ridiculous shields, able to the shield grab any character who couldn't space properly like the space animals, or force characters to approach into the shield grabs, such as those without projectiles like Ike. Characters in vBrawl didn't have lag reduced aerials, therefor when they attacked the shield, not only was the shield stun absent, but they couldn't retreat away from the shield in time. L Canceling was absent. Also, characters were slower, making them easier targets to chase after and grab upon retreats.

Lets also not forget that combos were next to impossible, so when a player disconnected Nana from Popo, and went for a punish, there was no guaranteed method to ensure Nana died, or that Popo stayed separated from here. It was also harder to kill the two when they were separated due to less falling speed, and the ability to cancel momentum with aerials. Heck, even grabbing the ledges were safe thanks to ASLs.

All of these benefits, and they still didn't dominate or even pose a problem. They distorted specific match ups, and that was it.

Please tell me, without all of these benefits in Brawl Plus, how do you intend to justify this motion with what I have just said? No, being grabbed and dying is not ridiculous, because the amount of options to ensure that you A) don't get grabbed and B) kill the Ice Climber(s) before you get grabbed are very possible, very reasonable, and very effective.

I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.

 

[CT Chia]

If nana is sorta close to you, then you surely can not mash out at 35%. I've been grabbed at 15% by an ICs in tourney (out of trip, wasnt expecting, and nana was next to popo) and it started instantly. i lost that stock.

while sure its not the most broken thing, and its a lil tougher to get off in b+, but come on, lets be realistic here. every other CG in the game doesn't lead to death. they all lead to combos or a medium amount of damage if done right. they depend on ur opponents DI. people were happy falco and DDDs CGs were gone. when the ICs starts their chaingrab, the opponent loses all of their options. they cant' DI out of this CG, they can't DI the kill move to live unless the ICs is stupid enough to do it too early.

thats the beauty of melee and brawl+, people get off impressive combos with skill. if you consider getting a grab with ICs cool and impressive (albeit it can be tough in some situations but they have setups, especially with hitstun), then call me shocked. most combos can be broken with DI, being at certain percents, etc.

the ICs were a great character in melee even without wobbling (which was eventually banned!). why dont we remove this, and add other changes to the ICs to make them even better than they were before any of the changes? give them fast tilts (keeping them weak as they are now) to combo. theyr nice at juggling with uairs. test some grab knockbacks or lag to give them some good chaingrabs that are like other characters. maybe alter some of their specials a tad. make popo's fair meteor like nana's does. the ICs dont need the cg to be good. i think many more ppl would prefer to have ICs be good with legitimate tactics over inescapable chaingrabs THAT MAKE THE OPPONENT LOSE ALL CONTROL OF THEIR CHARACTER (< the main point of me being against it)