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Character Exploration Thread - Day 79: Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)

Paraster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
1,463
Location
The 104 Building
So CotND has multiple different versions of the OST that can be used ingame (some characters even default to versions aside from the original). Do you think Smash would focus only on the original soundtrack, incorporate some tracks from other versions, or give all versions equal representation?

For reference, the versions of the OST:
 

amageish

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
3,558
I can imagine Cadence having a unique movement mechanic that's dependent on the tempo of the music that plays, though I'm sure that'll be difficult to program tempo values into all 1000+ songs in the game, but hey, Sakurai managed to change all of the stages for Steve's mining, so I'm not gonna count that out.
I've also thought about this and the chaos it would cause the competitive community would be a sight to see. The music counter-pick meta.

(though, like Paraster, I think some rhythm based specials is more likely if it were to happen)

Do you guys think Cadence would bring any Cadence of Hyrule tracks with her if she gets in?

x15 Sarah Kerrigan
I... honestly do not know. Maybe Cadence brings a new mechanic where there are "Crossover" songs that count as being from multiple franchises for the purposes of My Music, as I wouldn't expect Cadence to come with music that doesn't play on her stage (which I imagine would be themed to her original game) and I also wouldn't expect CoH music to not be able to be played on Zelda stages...

So CotND has multiple different versions of the OST that can be used ingame (some characters even default to versions aside from the original). Do you think Smash would focus only on the original soundtrack, incorporate some tracks from other versions, or give all versions equal representation?

For reference, the versions of the OST:
I think they'd sample a song at least from all the main OSTs, assuming they can be easily licensed. Nintendo worked with a lot of those people on CoH anyway and that didn't leak, so I assume Nintendo has some level of trust there.

The one music set I would expect to be skipped is the Danganronpa fusion OST, but I also could see Masafumi Takada being asked to do Smash-exclusive remixes of songs from the game for Smash anyway, as he's already been a reoccuring Smash arranger.
 

ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
Hey, I know Cadence! In fact, I've played enough NecroDancer to put together a brief moveset for her that I think covers all the core mechanics of it.
Note that I have no idea what goes on in Cadence of Hyrule, so none of this is going to be based on that.

---

Unlike most rhythm games, NecroDancer actually has combat and the like. And frankly... I don't think I can come up with a concept for a Smash character with rhythm-based gameplay that doesn't feel one or more of "impossible to implement", "overly limiting in terms of music", "not actually how rhythm games feel", or "halfhearted". So, honestly... let's just not do a rhythm mechanic. I think NecroDancer has enough to work with for a moveset to not need a rhythm mechanic - and I think we can bring across some things while keeping it low-key. Now that I'm thinking of it, we could put a rhythm mechanic on the stage instead, which lets us control exactly which music plays, and also lets it be turned off for situations where music would be problematic to include.

Anyway, Cadence's playstyle is very much inspired by the gameplay of NecroDancer - she's a highly positional character who likes staying out of range of enemy attacks and getting opponents into specific ranges for various attacks. She's a bit similar to Byleth in that her normals make use of various weapons, but there's a lot more variety in the ones she uses. Her most prominent weapon is the dagger. In terms of movement, she's pretty slow regularly, but there's specific movement techniques that let her move more quickly. In particular, her initial dash is much, much faster than her run, so her foxtrot is actually her fastest method of grounded movement if timed well; and a lot of her normals move her around and have low endlag, so her attacks are movement as well.

Jab: A close-range, four-hit slashing combo with her dagger. The hits are a lot less rapid than most other jabs.
Forward Tilt: A forward slash with a longsword. Longer reach than her jab and more damage than one hit thereof, but less damage than all four hits.
Up Tilt: An overhead swing with a broadsword. Hits on both sides of Cadence.
Down Tilt: One of Cadence's traversal normals. She performs an absolutely killer dropkick that goes crazy far, but has a lot of endlag if it whiffs or hits a shield. High-risk, high-reward; use this if you need to move quickly and you know there's not going to be consequences. She'd need a pretty unique crouch animation to lead into this properly. Maybe something with her leaned forward, hand on the ground, into a frontflip. This is based on the boots of lunging.
Dash Attack: A slash with her dagger. Uniquely for a dash attack, this actually goes into the second hit of her jab combo.

Forward Smash: A devastating but slow swing with a warhammer. Covers a large area in front of Cadence, including in the air. It actually sends opponents downward, causing them to bounce off the ground and go up; it's specifically coded so they can't tech this. As a side effect, it's a crazy spike at the ledge, but it's easy to see coming.
Up Smash: An upward stab with a spear that also covers a decent distance in from of Cadence. Quicker than her forward smash, but not nearly as devastating,
Down Smash: A big swing with a flail. Hits on both sides.

Neutral Air: A lash with a whip. It covers a wide area vertically both up and down in front of Cadence, but it's actually only aimed at the closest enemy within this area; Cadence won't attack anywhere else, and the attack will fail completely if nobody's in that range.
Forward Air:
One of Cadence's traversal normals. It's a forward lunge with a rapier. It has a sweetspot if you hit the opponent right as the lunge ends.
Backward Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. It's a backward lunge with an axe. These two moves are great for her horizontal movement.
Up Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. A lash with a cat o' nine tails. It has the same mechanic as the whip, where Cadence automatically aims within its effective range. Here, it's because she's lashing downward on the opponent, popping her upward a significant amount (though it only sends the enemy sideways).
Down Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals, and easily the most typical. It's a stall-then-fall featuring Cadence delivering a downward kick. Based vaguely on the lead boots.

Cadence's grab and throws have nothing particularly interesting going on.

Now we come to the exciting part: the specials. Each of the specials is themed around a different item in Cadence's starting loadout. Between the four of them, I think I've come to represent a variety of game mechanics.

Neutral Special: Dagger Throw: Cadence enters a dagger-throwing stance. Hitting B again while holding a direction will make her throw her dagger in that direction. It travels as fast as a bullet, but Cadence winds up for the throw for just enough time to dodge it. You won't run out of daggers or anything, but it's slow enough that it's not a particularly reusable projectile - but it's handy if you can't get in.
Side Special: Torch: A two-part move. The first part is a dash while holding a torch. The second part happens when you press B again, allowing you to go into a fiery multi-hit torch swing. It's yet another one of Cadence's movement options to make up for her lackluster speed, falling somewhere in between her air normals and her down tilt in terms of commitment.
Up Special: Shovel: Now this is a fun one. It's a directional recovery like Fox's or Sephiroth's, but it deals no damage. As a tradeoff, it's a lot faster and doesn't leave you helpless if you do it downward. But the fun part is that you can use it to go through the stage. While she's doing the move, Cadence will treat solid platforms as though they don't exist, and if she ends the move inside a platform, she'll keep falling inside of it until she's out. You can use it to recover from under the stage, or edgeguard someone by going from atop the stage to below the ledge and then double-jumping back. Lots of fun stuff to do with this one.
Down Special: Bomb: Cadence puts down a bomb. It'll stay there - even in midair - until it explodes. It'll do damage to her as well. Use it to make an area an absolute no-fly zone.

Final Smash: Golden Lute: Cadence pulls out the Golden Lute, then plays it while quickly dashing in player-chosen directions four times. The notes she's playing drag enemies she passes by with her in a barrage of multi-hits. She ends the attack with one final strum on the Lute, blasting everyone away.

---

I haven't particularly looked at any movesets for Cadence anyone's made, but I think I may have made some very unpopular choices with this one. I don't know, what do y'all think?
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
Hey, I know Cadence! In fact, I've played enough NecroDancer to put together a brief moveset for her that I think covers all the core mechanics of it.
Note that I have no idea what goes on in Cadence of Hyrule, so none of this is going to be based on that.

---

Unlike most rhythm games, NecroDancer actually has combat and the like. And frankly... I don't think I can come up with a concept for a Smash character with rhythm-based gameplay that doesn't feel one or more of "impossible to implement", "overly limiting in terms of music", "not actually how rhythm games feel", or "halfhearted". So, honestly... let's just not do a rhythm mechanic. I think NecroDancer has enough to work with for a moveset to not need a rhythm mechanic - and I think we can bring across some things while keeping it low-key. Now that I'm thinking of it, we could put a rhythm mechanic on the stage instead, which lets us control exactly which music plays, and also lets it be turned off for situations where music would be problematic to include.

Anyway, Cadence's playstyle is very much inspired by the gameplay of NecroDancer - she's a highly positional character who likes staying out of range of enemy attacks and getting opponents into specific ranges for various attacks. She's a bit similar to Byleth in that her normals make use of various weapons, but there's a lot more variety in the ones she uses. Her most prominent weapon is the dagger. In terms of movement, she's pretty slow regularly, but there's specific movement techniques that let her move more quickly. In particular, her initial dash is much, much faster than her run, so her foxtrot is actually her fastest method of grounded movement if timed well; and a lot of her normals move her around and have low endlag, so her attacks are movement as well.

Jab: A close-range, four-hit slashing combo with her dagger. The hits are a lot less rapid than most other jabs.
Forward Tilt: A forward slash with a longsword. Longer reach than her jab and more damage than one hit thereof, but less damage than all four hits.
Up Tilt: An overhead swing with a broadsword. Hits on both sides of Cadence.
Down Tilt: One of Cadence's traversal normals. She performs an absolutely killer dropkick that goes crazy far, but has a lot of endlag if it whiffs or hits a shield. High-risk, high-reward; use this if you need to move quickly and you know there's not going to be consequences. She'd need a pretty unique crouch animation to lead into this properly. Maybe something with her leaned forward, hand on the ground, into a frontflip. This is based on the boots of lunging.
Dash Attack: A slash with her dagger. Uniquely for a dash attack, this actually goes into the second hit of her jab combo.

Forward Smash: A devastating but slow swing with a warhammer. Covers a large area in front of Cadence, including in the air. It actually sends opponents downward, causing them to bounce off the ground and go up; it's specifically coded so they can't tech this. As a side effect, it's a crazy spike at the ledge, but it's easy to see coming.
Up Smash: An upward stab with a spear that also covers a decent distance in from of Cadence. Quicker than her forward smash, but not nearly as devastating,
Down Smash: A big swing with a flail. Hits on both sides.

Neutral Air: A lash with a whip. It covers a wide area vertically both up and down in front of Cadence, but it's actually only aimed at the closest enemy within this area; Cadence won't attack anywhere else, and the attack will fail completely if nobody's in that range.
Forward Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. It's a forward lunge with a rapier. It has a sweetspot if you hit the opponent right as the lunge ends.
Backward Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. It's a backward lunge with an axe. These two moves are great for her horizontal movement.
Up Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. A lash with a cat o' nine tails. It has the same mechanic as the whip, where Cadence automatically aims within its effective range. Here, it's because she's lashing downward on the opponent, popping her upward a significant amount (though it only sends the enemy sideways).
Down Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals, and easily the most typical. It's a stall-then-fall featuring Cadence delivering a downward kick. Based vaguely on the lead boots.

Cadence's grab and throws have nothing particularly interesting going on.

Now we come to the exciting part: the specials. Each of the specials is themed around a different item in Cadence's starting loadout. Between the four of them, I think I've come to represent a variety of game mechanics.

Neutral Special: Dagger Throw: Cadence enters a dagger-throwing stance. Hitting B again while holding a direction will make her throw her dagger in that direction. It travels as fast as a bullet, but Cadence winds up for the throw for just enough time to dodge it. You won't run out of daggers or anything, but it's slow enough that it's not a particularly reusable projectile - but it's handy if you can't get in.
Side Special: Torch: A two-part move. The first part is a dash while holding a torch. The second part happens when you press B again, allowing you to go into a fiery multi-hit torch swing. It's yet another one of Cadence's movement options to make up for her lackluster speed, falling somewhere in between her air normals and her down tilt in terms of commitment.
Up Special: Shovel: Now this is a fun one. It's a directional recovery like Fox's or Sephiroth's, but it deals no damage. As a tradeoff, it's a lot faster and doesn't leave you helpless if you do it downward. But the fun part is that you can use it to go through the stage. While she's doing the move, Cadence will treat solid platforms as though they don't exist, and if she ends the move inside a platform, she'll keep falling inside of it until she's out. You can use it to recover from under the stage, or edgeguard someone by going from atop the stage to below the ledge and then double-jumping back. Lots of fun stuff to do with this one.
Down Special: Bomb: Cadence puts down a bomb. It'll stay there - even in midair - until it explodes. It'll do damage to her as well. Use it to make an area an absolute no-fly zone.

Final Smash: Golden Lute: Cadence pulls out the Golden Lute, then plays it while quickly dashing in player-chosen directions four times. The notes she's playing drag enemies she passes by with her in a barrage of multi-hits. She ends the attack with one final strum on the Lute, blasting everyone away.

---

I haven't particularly looked at any movesets for Cadence anyone's made, but I think I may have made some very unpopular choices with this one. I don't know, what do y'all think?
Ah, I forgot that Cadence could be the first Rhythm game rep to Smash Bros. Plus, all those weapons sound cool, too (not too much of another sword-user, too).
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
6,597
Does Cadence have any interesting alternate outfits she could come with? Maybe something with the crossover games could be fun.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,384
I hear NecroDancer has multiple playable characters. Would anyone of then potentially work as alts/Echoes, or is this another instance where it'd be a bit of a stretch?
I heard the main story has two other main characters. Maybe one of them?

Anyway, why should Nintendo prioritise Necrodancer over other Indies?

Nominations: Laharl xMax
 

amageish

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
3,558
I haven't particularly looked at any movesets for Cadence anyone's made, but I think I may have made some very unpopular choices with this one. I don't know, what do y'all think?
I like it! I would give her a combo-focused moveset to speculate rhythm game vibes myself, but representing the positioning and zoning focus of Necrodancer's gameplay is a really cool angle to take her kit into.

Does Cadence have any interesting alternate outfits she could come with? Maybe something with the crossover games could be fun.
She personally only really has one outfit, honestly.... Her main thing she keeps changing is artstyle lol.

I hear NecroDancer has multiple playable characters. Would anyone of then potentially work as alts/Echoes, or is this another instance where it'd be a bit of a stretch?
Ehhhhhhhhhh. I'll put this into a spoiler tab as it is spoiler-adjacent - not, like, giant spoilers, but acknowledging who does and doesn't appear and what gimmicks they have.

So, the main trio of the base game is Cadence, her mother Melody, and her grandmother Aria. Melody is cursed to eternally play a lute, so it'd be kind of hard for her to just... drop the lute, but you could maybe justify it by just saying it's pre-curse Melody. Aria could maybe work, as her gimmick is that she cannot gain health in any way.

Beyond that trio, Nocturna turns into a bad when injured and I don't think you can just ignore that part of her character, so she's a nope. Dorian, Cadence's father, is a maybe, I guess? Eli, Cadence's uncle, has a hook for a hand, so that would be a nope for him... Monk and Dove are just random characters with gimmicks - Monk cannot take money and Dove cannot kill anyone - so they probably wouldn't be worth including even if their gimmicks weren't non-starters. Coda is a small little gremlin, who is small, so nope. Bolt fights with a spear, but as anyone can pick up any weapon, they technically could be playable I guess? They're not an especially important character, but if the shoe fits... Finally, the Bard is probably the best-known extra playable character, as he is just Cadence but with no rhythm requirement. He could totally be an alt.

Beyond that, there's some DLC characters, but they're all very gimmicky and definitely wouldn't work (ex/ Mary has a little lamb follow her around). Finally, there are the Danganronpa characters (all of whom are available as skins for various characters, with Ibuki being exclusive to Melody and Sayaka to Dove), but I think people would have follow-up questions if we got Chiaki in Smash Bros as a Cadence alt.

Anyway, why should Nintendo prioritise Necrodancer over other Indies?
This isn't really the place to ask chance-based questions. Cadence is a character who is neat and has a Zelda spin-off game. Not much else to say.
 

Pillow

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
1,268
Location
Los Angeles
Hey, I know Cadence! In fact, I've played enough NecroDancer to put together a brief moveset for her that I think covers all the core mechanics of it.
Note that I have no idea what goes on in Cadence of Hyrule, so none of this is going to be based on that.

---

Unlike most rhythm games, NecroDancer actually has combat and the like. And frankly... I don't think I can come up with a concept for a Smash character with rhythm-based gameplay that doesn't feel one or more of "impossible to implement", "overly limiting in terms of music", "not actually how rhythm games feel", or "halfhearted". So, honestly... let's just not do a rhythm mechanic. I think NecroDancer has enough to work with for a moveset to not need a rhythm mechanic - and I think we can bring across some things while keeping it low-key. Now that I'm thinking of it, we could put a rhythm mechanic on the stage instead, which lets us control exactly which music plays, and also lets it be turned off for situations where music would be problematic to include.

Anyway, Cadence's playstyle is very much inspired by the gameplay of NecroDancer - she's a highly positional character who likes staying out of range of enemy attacks and getting opponents into specific ranges for various attacks. She's a bit similar to Byleth in that her normals make use of various weapons, but there's a lot more variety in the ones she uses. Her most prominent weapon is the dagger. In terms of movement, she's pretty slow regularly, but there's specific movement techniques that let her move more quickly. In particular, her initial dash is much, much faster than her run, so her foxtrot is actually her fastest method of grounded movement if timed well; and a lot of her normals move her around and have low endlag, so her attacks are movement as well.

Jab: A close-range, four-hit slashing combo with her dagger. The hits are a lot less rapid than most other jabs.
Forward Tilt: A forward slash with a longsword. Longer reach than her jab and more damage than one hit thereof, but less damage than all four hits.
Up Tilt: An overhead swing with a broadsword. Hits on both sides of Cadence.
Down Tilt: One of Cadence's traversal normals. She performs an absolutely killer dropkick that goes crazy far, but has a lot of endlag if it whiffs or hits a shield. High-risk, high-reward; use this if you need to move quickly and you know there's not going to be consequences. She'd need a pretty unique crouch animation to lead into this properly. Maybe something with her leaned forward, hand on the ground, into a frontflip. This is based on the boots of lunging.
Dash Attack: A slash with her dagger. Uniquely for a dash attack, this actually goes into the second hit of her jab combo.

Forward Smash: A devastating but slow swing with a warhammer. Covers a large area in front of Cadence, including in the air. It actually sends opponents downward, causing them to bounce off the ground and go up; it's specifically coded so they can't tech this. As a side effect, it's a crazy spike at the ledge, but it's easy to see coming.
Up Smash: An upward stab with a spear that also covers a decent distance in from of Cadence. Quicker than her forward smash, but not nearly as devastating,
Down Smash: A big swing with a flail. Hits on both sides.

Neutral Air: A lash with a whip. It covers a wide area vertically both up and down in front of Cadence, but it's actually only aimed at the closest enemy within this area; Cadence won't attack anywhere else, and the attack will fail completely if nobody's in that range.
Forward Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. It's a forward lunge with a rapier. It has a sweetspot if you hit the opponent right as the lunge ends.
Backward Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. It's a backward lunge with an axe. These two moves are great for her horizontal movement.
Up Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals. A lash with a cat o' nine tails. It has the same mechanic as the whip, where Cadence automatically aims within its effective range. Here, it's because she's lashing downward on the opponent, popping her upward a significant amount (though it only sends the enemy sideways).
Down Air: One of Cadence's traversal normals, and easily the most typical. It's a stall-then-fall featuring Cadence delivering a downward kick. Based vaguely on the lead boots.

Cadence's grab and throws have nothing particularly interesting going on.

Now we come to the exciting part: the specials. Each of the specials is themed around a different item in Cadence's starting loadout. Between the four of them, I think I've come to represent a variety of game mechanics.

Neutral Special: Dagger Throw: Cadence enters a dagger-throwing stance. Hitting B again while holding a direction will make her throw her dagger in that direction. It travels as fast as a bullet, but Cadence winds up for the throw for just enough time to dodge it. You won't run out of daggers or anything, but it's slow enough that it's not a particularly reusable projectile - but it's handy if you can't get in.
Side Special: Torch: A two-part move. The first part is a dash while holding a torch. The second part happens when you press B again, allowing you to go into a fiery multi-hit torch swing. It's yet another one of Cadence's movement options to make up for her lackluster speed, falling somewhere in between her air normals and her down tilt in terms of commitment.
Up Special: Shovel: Now this is a fun one. It's a directional recovery like Fox's or Sephiroth's, but it deals no damage. As a tradeoff, it's a lot faster and doesn't leave you helpless if you do it downward. But the fun part is that you can use it to go through the stage. While she's doing the move, Cadence will treat solid platforms as though they don't exist, and if she ends the move inside a platform, she'll keep falling inside of it until she's out. You can use it to recover from under the stage, or edgeguard someone by going from atop the stage to below the ledge and then double-jumping back. Lots of fun stuff to do with this one.
Down Special: Bomb: Cadence puts down a bomb. It'll stay there - even in midair - until it explodes. It'll do damage to her as well. Use it to make an area an absolute no-fly zone.

Final Smash: Golden Lute: Cadence pulls out the Golden Lute, then plays it while quickly dashing in player-chosen directions four times. The notes she's playing drag enemies she passes by with her in a barrage of multi-hits. She ends the attack with one final strum on the Lute, blasting everyone away.

---

I haven't particularly looked at any movesets for Cadence anyone's made, but I think I may have made some very unpopular choices with this one. I don't know, what do y'all think?
I agree with your assessment that a full rhythm based gimmick would be both hard to implement and not very fun to play. Though I do think it would be possible to squeeze some sort of rythm minigame onto a single special or something, similar to how DK's old Fsmash worked (though I'm unfamiliar with Necrodancer so I'm not sure what sort of move this would be). From what I've seen you've been pretty spot on how her general gameplay should go (spacing/positional based character that wants to fight at mid range).

It's not a complaint exactly, but I do think that having each tilt, aerial, and smash attack use a different weapon might be a bit confusing for Smash. For spacing based characters it's important to get a feel for the range of each move, and it's harder to do that when each of these weapons has different ranges / properties...it could be a cool thing that makes her difficult to master, but it could also just be unintuitive to play.


Noms:
x30 Innkeeper
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,384
This isn't really the place to ask chance-based questions. Cadence is a character who is neat and has a Zelda spin-off game. Not much else to say.
Sorry about that. I was at work, so I didn't know what had already been asked.

Although I AM aware that Cadance of Hyrule had a few unique situations going on, like how it was supposed to be DLC...
 

GolisoPower

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2017
Messages
4,397
Honestly, if there can't be a rhythm mechanic for Cadence herself...then what about for her Stage? At some point in the match, the Necrodancer casts his curse on the whole stage and anyone who lands an attack on a beat of the music will gain bolstered damage!
 

amageish

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
3,558
Sorry about that. I was at work, so I didn't know what had already been asked.

Although I AM aware that Cadance of Hyrule had a few unique situations going on, like how it was supposed to be DLC...
Yeah, it was going to be a Switch-exclusive character (which they already have in the form of the Reaper), then turned into a full concept crossover game. Granted, I guess all negotiations start somewhere small...

I am kind of surprised Cadence still has nothing in Smash when it seems like Cuphead's costume was negotiated between the Indie Showcase where both Cuphead and Cadence of Hyrule were revealed and the reveal in Byleth's Sakurai Presents, but also some IPs just slip through the cracks...

Honestly, if there can't be a rhythm mechanic for Cadence herself...then what about for her Stage? At some point in the match, the Necrodancer casts his curse on the whole stage and anyone who lands an attack on a beat of the music will gain bolstered damage!
Whole stage with a rhythm gimmick would be a good happy medium. You can have the heart icon appear during the portions of the fight where it is in effect!

Also, I'd say you can't nominate Monika because she lacks a support thread, but I also solved that problem for you.
 

Paraster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
1,463
Location
The 104 Building
Does Cadence have any interesting alternate outfits she could come with? Maybe something with the crossover games could be fun.
I heard the main story has two other main characters. Maybe one of them?

Anyway, why should Nintendo prioritise Necrodancer over other Indies?

Nominations: Laharl xMax
My Cadence doc just gave her colors based on other playable characters (plus one for the NecroDancer), but there is one option for Cadence herself: in two-player mode, player 2 can become a reskin of Cadence (named "Choral").
1623472132720.png
 
Last edited:

amageish

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
3,558
My Cadence doc just gave her colors based on other playable characters (plus one for the NecroDancer), but there is one option for Cadence herself: in two-player mode, player 2 can become a reskin of Cadence (named "Choral").
View attachment 318729
I completely forgot she existed... in spite of us having discussed her in the Cadence thread where I think I was also surprised to realize she had a name for the first time...

I wonder if she'd get her own announcer voice...
 

Paraster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
1,463
Location
The 104 Building
I completely forgot she existed... in spite of us having discussed her in the Cadence thread where I think I was also surprised to realize she had a name for the first time...

I wonder if she'd get her own announcer voice...
Considering she's only really a reskin of Cadence with no personality, story, or distinguishing features aside from color, I doubt it.
 

ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
I agree with your assessment that a full rhythm based gimmick would be both hard to implement and not very fun to play. Though I do think it would be possible to squeeze some sort of rythm minigame onto a single special or something, similar to how DK's old Fsmash worked (though I'm unfamiliar with Necrodancer so I'm not sure what sort of move this would be). From what I've seen you've been pretty spot on how her general gameplay should go (spacing/positional based character that wants to fight at mid range).

It's not a complaint exactly, but I do think that having each tilt, aerial, and smash attack use a different weapon might be a bit confusing for Smash. For spacing based characters it's important to get a feel for the range of each move, and it's harder to do that when each of these weapons has different ranges / properties...it could be a cool thing that makes her difficult to master, but it could also just be unintuitive to play.


Noms:
x30 Innkeeper
The thing about a rhythm minigame special is that - and I've said this before - Alolan Whip has never made me feel like I'm playing a rhythm game. I get that it's trying to convey the concept of hitting the button at the right time, but without the music it doesn't get that across. I guess it doesn't hurt to have a move like that, but there aren't really grabs or combo attacks in NecroDancer so there isn't really cause to have one anyway.

As for the varied ranges... that's kinda the point. In NecroDancer, you're limited to what weapons you find, and making use of their different ranges and properties is the core of the gameplay, going hand-in-hand with avoiding enemy movement. Because it's a roguelike, there's no telling what weapon you'll end up with, so you'll have to get good with all of them. Also, it's not like my moveset has much in the way of crazy stuff, so I think there's enough complexity budget for a bunch of weird normals.

Putting my noms toward a Zero Escape representative.
 
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Technomage

Smash Champion
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Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
Does Cadence have any interesting alternate outfits she could come with? Maybe something with the crossover games could be fun.
Hmmm, I don't think so; I Google-searched some possible alternate costumes she might have in the game, and found nothing. Sorry to disappoint ya'. :drshrug:
 

amageish

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
3,558
Please make sure to open this noms list on-beat... unless you are browsing SmashBoards in bard mode.

50+ noms
Chosen Undead - x120
Maxwell - x110
Imperial (Etrian Odyssey) - x110
Sarah Kerrigan - x110
Gran/Djeeta - x85
Amaterasu - x85
Filia (Skullgirls) - x70

Hearthstone Innkeeper - x65
Laharl - x65
Frisk - x64

26-50 noms
Estelle Bright - x45
Endo Mamoru - x45
2B - x40
Saber - x40
Elma - x38
Jill Stingray - x30

11-25 noms
Octoling - x25
Ryza - x25
Black Mage - x20
Master Hand - x20
Isaac (Golden Sun) - x20
Mega Man X - x15
Shovel Knight - x15
Astral Chain rep - x15
Zero Escape Rep - x15
Monika - x15
Trauma Center Content - x12

5-10 noms
Daitoryo - x10
Saber - x10
Bubsy - x10
Bill & Lance - x10
Scorpion - x8
Chibi-Robo - x5
9-volt - x5
Gunvolt - x5
Nathan Drake - x5
Spyro the Dragon - x3
Tracer - x3
Sly Cooper - x3
Chell - x3
Chun-Li - x1
Shantae - x1
 

amageish

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
3,558
To try and spark more discussion, what would you consider the most important weapons in NecroDancer?
TBH, in spite of me having played far more Crypt of the Necrodancer then I have played Binding of Isaac, I'm a lot less familiar with Necrodancer's fandom and what people consider to be the best builds... That said, my fave weapon is the Cutlass, which allows you to parry monsters by slashing in their direction when they're attacking you, knocking them back and setting you up for a slash on the next beat. The boardsword, which strikes three opponents at once, can also be very nice in a bind... The Dagger of Frost is also fun, having poor range but freezing opponents for four beats once struck...

The big plot-important weapon is the Golden Lute, which you may recognize from being in the logo of Cadence of Hyrule. No real chance of that not appearing, probably in a Final Smash.
 

ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
To try and spark more discussion, what would you consider the most important weapons in NecroDancer?
Kinda hard to say. It's a roguelike, so most of them have an equal likelihood of showing up. I guess the ones in the DLC are "less important" than the ones in vanilla NecroDancer, I guess.

There are a couple winners, though. Cadence starts with an iron dagger (I think every other character without a unique weapon starts with one too). And amageish amageish already mentioned the Golden Lute.

Something that didn't come up in my moveset is that weapons can actually be made of various different materials. Iron weapons are regular, blood weapons heal you if you kill enough folks with 'em, glass weapons deal a lot of damage but break if you get hit, gold weapons give you extra gold and also deal more damage right after you pick up gold, obsidian weapons deal more damage the more enemies you kill without making mistakes, and titanium weapons deal twice as much damage as iron weapons in all circumstances. However, there's not really a time when there's a specific weapon material that's relevant...
 

Paraster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
1,463
Location
The 104 Building
To try and spark more discussion, what would you consider the most important weapons in NecroDancer?
The dagger for being the "basic/default" weapon for most characters, including Cadence, but I especially focus on the Greatshovel. Yes, it was only in Cadence of Hyrule and not the original Crypt, but it's literally exclusive to Cadence, which gives her something unique. As mentioned previously, most of the normals in my Cadence moveset use the Greatshovel.

Also seconding the Golden Lute as a Final Smash.
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
Oh cool, Battletoads are coming up; just have to wait for their day to start.

Also, 10 noms on Imperial.
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
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Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
Alright, toad time. First off, who are these guys, and which one, if any, could be considered the main character?

Nomination: Klonoa x15
I think Rash would be the main toad, since the fact that he started the BT's second adventure due to being the only BT dissatisfied with his current life hints at him being the main one.
 

Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
2,289
Noms: Frisk x15

Are there any distinct locations that would make good stages? The only place/level I know of as someone who's never played Battletoads is Turbo Tunnel.
Hmmm, I think TT's the most iconic stage of the NES game, since that stage's background was the only thing that came to mind when trying to think up NES stages.

I would have though about including one of the 2020 game's stages (like that platform where you fight Uto and Pia, with both of them as stage bosses), but since FP2 was decided on before November 2019, I don't see any of those stages as being viable (maybe for the next game, though).
 

ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
If you ask me, Turbo Tunnel's definitely the way to go. I mean, everyone knows it.

You could put the stage perpendicular to the tunnel, going down it. Sorta like Port Town Aero Dive, but straight. The stage itself is a wide, spaceshiplike version of the blue motorcycle from the stage. The slabs of rock pass over the platform going into the foreground, smacking anyone who doesn't dodge them. Also, sometimes the platform goes over a ramp, bringing it closer to the top platform.
 

Gengar84

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Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
6,597
I think Rash would be the main toad, since the fact that he started the BT's second adventure due to being the only BT dissatisfied with his current life hints at him being the main one.
Zitz is technically the leader of the Battletoads but Rash is the most promoted of them. Ideally, they would all be in as skins of each other. Pimple is bigger than the others in most games but in Battletoads and Double Dragon, all three played exactly the same and were the same size so there is precedence for something like that. We also have Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn Ike over the same character so that helps too.
If you ask me, Turbo Tunnel's definitely the way to go. I mean, everyone knows it.

You could put the stage perpendicular to the tunnel, going down it. Sorta like Port Town Aero Dive, but straight. The stage itself is a wide, spaceshiplike version of the blue motorcycle from the stage. The slabs of rock pass over the platform going into the foreground, smacking anyone who doesn't dodge them. Also, sometimes the platform goes over a ramp, bringing it closer to the top platform.
Turbo Tunnel would be a really good option for a stage but it isn't the only one. My idea was Khaos Mountains from Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. The stage has terrain that is constantly shifting and would make for some really fun Smash gameplay. I made the stage in Stage Builder to try to illustrate this.

Basically, the stage starts out like this. The platform on the left moves up and down in a jagged pattern while the platform on the right moves left and right. The middle platform that K. Rool is standing on is stationary.

2021060817430200_c.jpg

You can see here as the platforms are beginning to move in these directions

2021060817441800_c.jpg

When the platforms are at the farthest point, the stage is basically a flat final destination style stage until the platforms move back to their original location.

2021060817453300_c.jpg

Anyone that feels like trying this out for themselves, I have the code for the stage here: BS3LBPDQ

You can see the stage I based this on in action from the original game here:

 
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Technomage

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,289
Zitz is technically the leader of the Battletoads but Rash is the most promoted of them. Ideally, they would all be in as skins of each other. Pimple is bigger than the others in most games but in Battletoads and Double Dragon, all three played exactly the same and were the same size so there is precedence for something like that. We also have Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn Ike over the same character so that helps too.
Not only BT&DD, but the cartoon also shows them at pretty much the same height and body shape:


Speaking of the cartoon intro, I'd find it funny if that were to be one of the songs added by the BT CP. XD

Also, I think the other 2 toads would work as alternate costumes of the first one, though if we want them to have even numbers, we'd have to give the character 9 alts, status quo be damned.
 
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GolisoPower

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Joined
Sep 17, 2017
Messages
4,397
Battletoads is essentially one of Rare's most important franchises in their history because it was essentially the game that put them on the map for Nintendo. Honestly, if anyone's gonna be a Battletoads rep, I'd argue it'd be Rash because A) He's the P1 character of the NES game, B) He got picked for Killer Instinct, giving him a lot of material to work with for a moveset, and C) He's been playable in nearly every Battletoads game he's appeared in. If anyone's gonna get in Smash, it'd be him.

Noms:
5x Chosen Undead
5x Monika
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
6,597
Group 3.jpg

Introduction

The Battletoads franchise was developed in 1991 by RARE in order to rival the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. These games cover a wide variety of genres within the same game, with each stage playing differently from the last. The franchise even got a one episode cartoon. While the series has been dormant since the days of the SNES, it has been kept in people's minds thanks to memes and stories of its insane difficulty. This generation, the series has been getting a bit of a resurgence from appearing as guests in Shovel Knight and Killer Instinct to the announcement of a new game at this year's E3.

Who are the Battletoads?

The backstory for the Battletoads is actually very similar to the anime/light novel Sword Art Online. The toads began as human computer technicians and game testers. After they began having suspicions that their boss Silas Volkimore was up to no good, they decided to investigate the office at night and discovered that one of the games they had been testing had been tampered with and were sucked into the game world. There they meet Professor T. Bird who becomes their mentor and trains them to fight the evil Dark Queen.

The Battletoads have the ability to transform their bodies into a variety of different objects such as growing ram horns to headbutt, turning their fist into a giant hammer, and even transforming their entire bodies into a wrecking ball. In addition to this, they can also pilot vehicles such as speeder bikes, jet packs, and hover crafts.

Why should they be considered for Smash Bros.?

Battletoads and RARE have a lot of history with Nintendo. While Banjo-Kazooie may be the face of Rare in the N64 era, Battletoads was among their most iconic games of the NES and SNES eras. They also have a ton of potential to have a very unique moveset. While Banjo-Kazooie is most likely the first pick if RARE was to get a character, I believe the Battletoads are strong contenders for a potential second rep for the company.

Potential Moveset

Potential Gimmick:
In the classic games, the Battletoads transform their limbs when they are about to inflict the finishing blow to an enemy. To represent this in Smash, one potential idea is to power up their attacks when the opponent is at 100% damage or higher. This would be visually represented by having their limbs transform. In more recent games, the Battletoads just always transform their limbs for attack regardless of the enemy's current health so this would work just as well without it. It just depends whether you want to represent the older or newer gameplay style.

Weak Attacks:
A Combo — Kiss My Fist
The Battletoad attacks with two regular punches followed by a big punch where his fist grows.
Kiss My Fist.gif

Forward Tilt — BT Big Hammer
The Battletoad attacks by swinging both hands left then right. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, the attack will be replaced by a giant hammer.
BT Big Hammer (Battlemaniacs).gif


Up Tilt
A short uppercut

Down Tilt — Ball n’ Chain
The Battletoad delivers a leg sweep. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and his foot is replaced by a spiked ball and chain.
View attachment 152997
Running A — Charge n’ Barge

The Battletoad delivers a running head butt to his opponent. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and the Battletoad has ram horns appear on his head.
Charge n' Barge (Battlemaniacs).gif


Smash Attacks:
Forward Smash — Big Bad Boot
The Battletoad punts his opponent. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and the Battletoad’s foot turns into a big boot and he jumps in the air a bit.
Big Bad Boot.gif

Up Smash — Stone Fist
The Battletoad delivers a fierce uppercut. Normally, his hand just grows bigger (like many of Mario’s attacks), but if the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and his fist turns to stone.
Stone Fist.gif

Down Smash
The Battletoad clasps his hands together (like Donkey Kong’s Aerial Forward A) and smashes his opponent into the ground (like Donkey Kong’s Forward B).


Specials:
Neutral B — Walker Leg
The Battletoad takes out a walker leg. After striking with this a few times, it leads to a command grab where they lift their opponent up and can choose to either smack them forward or toss them backward.


Forward B — Speeder Bike
This could work exactly like Wario’s motorcycle, except they would be using their speeder bikes from the Turbo Tunnel stages.

Up B — Rope
The Battletoad swings his arm like Donkey Kong’s windup punch and throws a rope upwards and attaches to any surface that he uses to swing like Spiderman. If you press B while swinging, he can turn into a wrecking ball and attack the opponent. This can be used as a tether recovery.

Down B — Drilla Killa
The Battletoad launches forward with an drill, using animation like Metaknight’s Forward B. When using it in the air, it would travel diagonally downwards like Falcon Kick.

Grabs:

Grab
The Battletoads have a tether grab with their tongue similar to Yoshi. Unlike Yoshi, the toads don’t swallow their opponents and only drags them closer like Link’s hookshot. Like the hookshot, the toads can also use their tongues as another tether recovery.

Pummel
The Battletoad kicks their opponent in the gut.

Forward Throw
The Battletoads pick up and carry their opponent similar to DK and can toss them in several directions.



Back Throw
The Battletoad grabs their opponent’s head and smashes them back and forth into the ground.

Up Throw
A simple toss upwards

Down Throw
The Battletoads jump in the air and slam their opponent down similar to DK's throw.

Aerial Attacks:
Neutral A
The Battletoad attacks with his arms outstretched and hitting enemies on both sides.

Forward A — Anvil Swipe
Something very similar to Gandondorf's. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and his hand is replaced by an anvil.

Back A — Flying Battleaxe
This attack would look a lot like Fox's. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, the move becomes stronger and his foot could become an axe.

Up A — Soarin’ Saw Blade
The base attack would be a standard somersault kick like Ganondorf. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, the move becomes stronger and his feet are replaced by a Buzz Saw.

Down A — Wun Tun Stomp
The Battletoad stomps down with one foot similar to DK but it causes the Battletoad to drop down like Toon Link’s Aerial Down A. If the opponent is at 100% or higher, this attack becomes stronger and the battletoad’s foot is replaced by a huge weight.

Final Smash
This could play pretty much exactly like Pikachu’s Final Smash. The Battletoad could turn into a spiked wrecking ball instead of an electric one. Afterwards, all of the Battletoad’s attacks can be their fully powered up versions for a little while.

I made other GIFs in my support thread but I'm having difficulty uploading them here for some reason. You can see them all here:

I also made a mod of these guys over Captain Falcon in Brawl that you can see here:


Rash1.jpg

Pimple1.jpg

Zitz1.jpg
 
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ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
The backstory for the Battletoads is actually very similar to the anime/light novel Sword Art Online.
This sentence is inherently hilarious.

The moves changing based on the opponent's health is a pretty unique mechanic, but not one that's overly crazy. It's elegant in that way. Though it might get odd in multiplayer battles. You'd need to use inert hitboxes to find whether or not the attacks going to hit someone over 100%, instead of just looking at the enemy's health.

Also, I'm putting all my noms toward a Zero Escape rep yet again.
 
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