Character Exploration Thread - Day 79: Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)

[Commander_Alph]

I feel like if we go by design I prefer his Apollo Justice appearance as the main design (the one that is used for today's image), despite been playing the original trilogy and haven't really touched the sequel I prefer that design more. Idk, other than that we probably have to pull the obligatory "expression attack" that they use to fill up his moveset in UMvC3 which probably going to be used often as a reference.

 

[ahemtoday]

Now, I'm quite familiar with Nick myself, but I haven't ever sat down and made a moveset for him. Just to start up discussion - how similar do y'all think his moveset would be to his one from Marvel vs Capcom?

Personally, I feel like his MVC moveset has a few great ideas - in particular the objection bubbles, the paper-slapping move, and the sneeze move - but it does enough odd things that I wouldn't want his moveset to just be "the MVC one in Smash". He's an Ace Attorney character, not a Mahvel one. I don't want a game of telephone going on with the moveset.

Hey, do you think it would be easier if we just cashed in our noms immediately each time we asked a question or submitted a moveset proposal instead of at the end of the day?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Okay, so I don't actually know anything about Ace Attorney. I might try to get The Great Ace Attorney Collection when it comes out, but no guarantees on that. That being said, I know a Youtuber who specialises in making Smash movesets:

I haven't watched it myself, and it IS an older video by the looks of it, but I figured I'd try to provide SOMETHING to the discussion. Because if this is anything like RTC, then I may not be able to add much to the conversation...

 

[ahemtoday]

Okay, so I don't actually know anything about Ace Attorney. I might try to get The Great Ace Attorney Collection when it comes out, but no guarantees on that. That being said, I know a Youtuber who specialises in making Smash movesets:

I haven't watched it myself, and it IS an older video by the looks of it, but I figured I'd try to provide SOMETHING to the discussion. Because if this is anything like RTC, then I may not be able to add much to the conversation...

On the contrary, sir - this thread is specifically designed for people with no knowledge to add to the conversation! You can earn nominations by asking questions. And you'll also get knowledge out of it, too!

 

[chocolatejr9]

On the contrary, sir - this thread is specifically designed for people with no knowledge to add to the conversation! You can earn nominations by asking questions. And you'll also get knowledge out of it, too!

In that case, I guess I'll try and get a more general question out there: namely, of all the Capcom characters out there, why Phoenix? I'm not trying to imply he doesn't deserve it or anything, but I figured I would see why him instead of insert other Capcom character here.

 

[PeridotGX]

In that case, I guess I'll try and get a more general question out there: namely, of all the Capcom characters out there, why Phoenix? I'm not trying to imply he doesn't deserve it or anything, but I figured I would see why him instead of insert other Capcom character here.

...not much more to it than that. I like the Ace Attourney games, so I'd like Phoenix in smash.

 

[Commander_Alph]

In that case, I guess I'll try and get a more general question out there: namely, of all the Capcom characters out there, why Phoenix? I'm not trying to imply he doesn't deserve it or anything, but I figured I would see why him instead of insert other Capcom character here.

There's still a ton of Capcom character with great potential but Phoenix struck me as his game has been a Nintendo exclusive for a long time on the DS and 3DS which mean his connection to Nintendo is closer than Resident Evil and Devil May Cry who an advocate support of PlayStation. Other than that I just like the game.

 

[ahemtoday]

In that case, I guess I'll try and get a more general question out there: namely, of all the Capcom characters out there, why Phoenix? I'm not trying to imply he doesn't deserve it or anything, but I figured I would see why him instead of insert other Capcom character here.

In addition to what everyone else has been saying: he'd also be our first visual novel rep, and maybe the most recognizable character in the entire genre considering how much I've seen him in general gaming contexts.

 

[Pillow]

Now, I'm quite familiar with Nick myself, but I haven't ever sat down and made a moveset for him. Just to start up discussion - how similar do y'all think his moveset would be to his one from Marvel vs Capcom?

Personally, I feel like his MVC moveset has a few great ideas - in particular the objection bubbles, the paper-slapping move, and the sneeze move - but it does enough odd things that I wouldn't want his moveset to just be "the MVC one in Smash". He's an Ace Attorney character, not a Mahvel one. I don't want a game of telephone going on with the moveset.

Hey, do you think it would be easier if we just cashed in our noms immediately each time we asked a question or submitted a moveset proposal instead of at the end of the day?

I like a lot of the animations and ideas for moves, but wouldn't want that version in Smash (not just because he was bad). The being a little wimp and gradually collecting evidence until Turnabout mode mechanic of his in particular is what I don't want to see in Smash.

Personally if I were the one to design Phoenix, I'd take inspiration from Yoshirota from SamSho. Basically, he has to land 6(?) different special moves before he can unleash a super powerful finisher attack. For Phoenix it would be represented by Magatamas slowly unlocking, as the way he "defeats" opponents in his home game is by slowly whittling down their defenses through cross examination.

 

[Commander_Alph]

For me he's basically the representation of the mainstream visual novel rep, if we go by classic represent I believe either Fate or Tsukihime fit that bill for more traditional audience.

 

[amageish]

Okay! As I said before, all my posts in this thread will be written as if the character has been announced to avoid discussing likelihood.

So, Wright, huh? Honestly, in spite of being an AA fan, I haven't spent that much time thinking of how he or his IP would work in Smash Bros... There's a lot of possibility here though, especially as both his genre and its subgenre has no playable content in Smash Bros...

I guess the most obvious question is how he'll play. His stage seems kind of obvious - there are multiple courtrooms they could pull from for design, but a courtroom setting feels somewhat obligatory - and the music potential is obvious, but the gameplay is a slightly tougher egg to crack.

Now, I'm quite familiar with Nick myself, but I haven't ever sat down and made a moveset for him. Just to start up discussion - how similar do y'all think his moveset would be to his one from Marvel vs Capcom?

Personally, I feel like his MVC moveset has a few great ideas - in particular the objection bubbles, the paper-slapping move, and the sneeze move - but it does enough odd things that I wouldn't want his moveset to just be "the MVC one in Smash". He's an Ace Attorney character, not a Mahvel one. I don't want a game of telephone going on with the moveset.

I think the use of overreactions for violence with things like speech bubbles and the sneezing should be carried over, but otherwise I'd probably rework how presenting evidence works and add in more references to the mechanics of Ace Attorney. I also don't think we could have the cameos, as it'd be really hard to make Maya run on-stage mid-match in Smash Bros...

Modern Smash characters tend to really go for the "It feels like you lifted them out of their game" feeling, so I think you'd want to include stuff like Psyche-Locks and the Mood Matrix - even if there are some skills Nick himself doesn't exactly have access to without his friends. I'd also probably base the Final Smash more on Revisualization, as his Ultimate Attack in MvC of just talking vaguely/aggressively feels a bit... understated? Wright talks aggressively a lot in AA, whether he's succeeding or not haha.

Like with most investigation characters, I imagine Wright having a gimmick that is kind of a super-charged version of Villager's Pocket, consuming attacks as "evidence" and presenting them back into new attacks, with the strength of the presenting attack being based on the type of evidence consumed...

How would people handle a spirit board? Do we get the friends/prosecutors? Famous NPCs? Do we just make the spirits every incarnation of the Samurai series seen across AA?

 

[amageish]

Error; double-post.

 

[SharkLord]

Hey, do you think it would be easier if we just cashed in our noms immediately each time we asked a question or submitted a moveset proposal instead of at the end of the day?

I feel like that would make things a bit cluttered and would kinda get in the way of the flow of conversation. Same reason for the rules against asking multiple questions at once; One thing at a time.

I'm also thinking of capping the extra noms at 25 total. Makes things a bit easier to keep track of.

 

[Commander_Alph]

How would people handle a spirit board? Do we get the friends/prosecutors? Famous NPCs? Do we just make the spirits every incarnation of the Samurai series seen across AA?

The prosecutors and defense attorneys is probably my go to option for Spirit Board, there's already enough of them in the game lol, and also Maya because she's very important. My suggestion for a legend spirit has to be Naruhodo so that means no Ema Skye or Kay

 

[SharkLord]

In that case, I guess I'll try and get a more general question out there: namely, of all the Capcom characters out there, why Phoenix? I'm not trying to imply he doesn't deserve it or anything, but I figured I would see why him instead of insert other Capcom character here.

I suppose you could say he is to the GBA/DS era as Mega Man was; Not the biggest guy overall, but still a fondly-remembered classic of the system and a lot of people have at least heard the name, plus the iconic "OBJECTION!" shout. In essence, he's a recognizable figure, and he'd represent a part of Nintendo; Specifically, the third-party exclusives.

In addition, Ace Attorney is generally considered the starter's visual novel, being an entry point into the genre for many. If genre coverage is your thing, he's a solid avenue.

 

[Pillow]

I think the use of overreactions for violence with things like speech bubbles and the sneezing should be carried over, but otherwise I'd probably rework how presenting evidence works and add in more references to the mechanics of Ace Attorney. I also don't think we could have the cameos, as it'd be really hard to make Maya run on-stage mid-match in Smash Bros...

Modern Smash characters tend to really go for the "It feels like you lifted them out of their game" feeling, so I think you'd want to include stuff like Psyche-Locks and the Mood Matrix - even if there are some skills Nick himself doesn't exactly have access to without his friends. I'd also probably base the Final Smash more on Revisualization, as his Ultimate Attack in MvC of just talking vaguely/aggressively feels a bit... understated? Wright talks aggressively a lot in AA, whether he's succeeding or not haha.

Like with most investigation characters, I imagine Wright having a gimmick that is kind of a super-charged version of Villager's Pocket, consuming attacks as "evidence" and presenting them back into new attacks, with the strength of the presenting attack being based on the type of evidence consumed...

How would people handle a spirit board? Do we get the friends/prosecutors? Famous NPCs? Do we just make the spirits every incarnation of the Samurai series seen across AA?

Yeah, I agree that the speech bubbles and sneezing as well as the disembodied giant hands when he points (similar to Bayonetta Smashes maybe?) are ideas that should be kept from MvC. Basically everything except his actual playstyle.

I don't think Phoenix should have the Mood Matrix. Even if we ignore the fact that it's pretty much Athena's thing, it's also hard to translate into a fighting game moveset.

Prosecutors, Wright Agency/Friends, the Judge and reoccurring characters like Gumshoe, Silver Samurai, Lotta Hart, etc. fit for Spirits. Though I think Maya should be part of Phoenix's taunt or something at least as his longest standing partner, and perhaps a few of the other bigger characters should be stage cameos.

 

[Deleted member]

Not exactly sure how this is supposed to go since the thread is young so I’m just gonna vomit a bunch of opinions and ideas and hope it goes well. Please don’t hurt me.

I got into a bit of an Ace Attorney binge this past March, and I’ve gotta say Phoenix is probably my most wanted character at the moment because of it. Ace Attorney is just so addictive. You get so invested in the characters and the stories while trying to solve the case with Phoenix and co. Some of my favorite moments are entirely self-made, such as the time I went full Pepe Silvia and mentally constructed a scenario in which a literal monkey was the culprit in Turnabout Big Top. Did it pan out? No, but it’s fun to think back on and trying to outsmart cases as they unfold is a big part of the enjoyment.

Phoenix himself is just a zany guy who bluffs his way past everything in the original trilogy, but 4-6 see him take on a mentor role which fit him surprisingly well? Honestly I didn’t think it’d work as well as it did going into it, but I loved how he grew into the role of a more seasoned attorney while maintaining his comedic side.

As for my favorite part of the series, it has to be the music. The cases are mostly great, but the music is just consistently top tier. I do love a lot of the characters too this is a Wendy Oldbag appreciation post, but god the music is just amazing.

Here’s my game ranking btw, no DGS until I get my hands on it this July. It goes something like Dual Destinies > Investigations 2 > AA1 > Trials and Tribulations > Investigations 1 > Apollo Justice > Justice for All > Spirit of Justice. Favorite case is Bridge to the Turnabout, but overall AA3’s cases weren’t as enjoyable as the others for whatever reason so it fell quite a bit. Kind of surprised myself with it too tbh.

I actually have a Challenger Pack concept for Phoenix so I guess I should post it in spoilers for the thread. The twist is that I love Edgeworth too much so he’s included as an Echo in this scenario.

Spoiler: Phoenix & Edgeworth Challenger Pack Concept

Spoiler: Spirit Board

I tried to limit myself to 16 since it would fill 2 pages in game, but I still want to cheat and add more lol. There’s way too many good characters to add. Tried to order them with the most expendable closer to the bottom.

1. Judge
2. Larry Butz
3. Detective Gumshoe
4. Franziska von Karma
5. Godot
6. Fey Sisters (Pearl, Maya, & Mia; Legendary Support Spirit)
7. Apollo Justice
8. Athena Cykes
9. Kay Faraday
10. Trucy Wright
11. Ema Skye (Enhanceable)
12. Naruhodo Ryunosuke
13. Klavier & Kristoph Gavin
14. Simon Blackquill
15. Wendy Oldbag
16. Blue Badger

Spoiler: Alternate Colors and Stage

• Series Icon: The circle with the shine in it that appears in all the game logos. Idk what it's called exactly.
• Stage: Courtroom (duh)
  • The Courtroom as appears in the original trilogy. I expect most of the content and inspiration for Phoenix would come from here regardless, so there is going to be a bias towards it.
  • Various defense attorneys & prosecutors from the series will duel it out in the background, causing various effects to happen on stage. These range from WarioWare-esque buffs & debuffs to dealing various amounts of damage & knockback, all dependent on which side of the stage you're standing on. The background characters would be completely randomized, so you could see some normally impossible combos like Gregory Edgeworth vs. Miles (provided he's not in battle) or Apollo vs. Godot.
• Alternate Colors
  • Phoenix Wright, colors are based on various defense attorneys and assistants
    1. Default, uses original trilogy design (I actually prefer his Dual Destinies look but this is what I’d expect Sakurai would go with)
    2. Orange (Larry Butz)
    3. Black (Mia Fey)
    4. Green (Detective Gumshoe)
    5. Red (Apollo Justice)
    6. Yellow (Athena Cykes)
    7. Sweater Phoenix alt from AA3 flashbacks
    8. Hobo Phoenix alt from Apollo Justice
  • Miles Edgeworth, colors are based on the different prosecutors of the series
    1. Default, uses original trilogy design
    2. Cyan (Franziska von Karma)
    3. Green (Godot)
    4. Purple (Klavier Gavin)
    5. Black (Simon Blackquill)
    6. White (Nahyuta Sahdmadhi)
    7. Rookie Prosecutor alt, the young Edgeworth seen in AA3's flashback cases
    8. Blue Rookie Prosecutor alt (Manfred von Karma)

Spoiler: Moveset

Only gonna cover the specials & final smash.

• Special Mechanic: Turnabout Mode
  • In Turnabout Mode, all of Phoenix/Edgeworth's specials are enhanced, alongside a slight movement speed & damage output increase. Getting damaged decreases the gauge while in Turnabout Mode.
• Neutral Special: Present Evidence/Objection!
  • Present Evidence: Phoenix/Edgeworth present evidence to the court, dealing damage in front of them. The evidence presented is random, with varying effects. Think Pac-Man’s Bonus Fruit mixed with Mr. Game and Watch’s Judge. Landing more decisive evidence will build up the Turnabout gauge more, and bad evidence will decrease it. You must land the attack to increase the gauge, and will lose a slight amount of gauge on whiff. Bad evidence will decrease the gauge regardless of if it hits or not. Potential evidence includes various crime scene photographs, diagrams, cell phones, bullets, a knife, an autopsy report, miscellaneous letters/testimony/memos, and the Attorney's or Prosecutor's badge. More specific evidence like the Thinker clock would be reserved for various normals to balance the percentage of presenting decisive evidence.
  • Objection!: In Turnabout Mode, Present Evidence becomes Objection!. Phoenix/Edgeworth shout the iconic line while pointing forwards, with a sweetspot on their outstretched finger. Quick for its power level, but has lots of endlag. Super armor during the pose and the finger point deals increased shield damage. Whiffing Objection! will lose gauge, but landing it fills it slightly.
• Side Special: Psyche Lock/Logic Chess
  • Psyche Lock: Phoenix takes out his Magatama, which reveals a red Psyche Lock in front of him. On hit, chains tie up the opponent before the lock shatters, sending the opponent flying. Command grab. Builds Turnabout gauge on hit, but whiffing decreases it. In Turnabout Mode, the Psyche Lock is black, increasing the move's power.
  • Logic Chess: Edgeworth waggles his finger in front of his forehead and sends an enlarged chess piece forward as a projectile. The piece is randomized between a Pawn, Knight, Rook, and Bishop, but the difference is aesthetic only. Builds Turnabout gauge on hit, but whiffs decrease it. In Turnabout Mode, the piece is a Queen instead, a faster and stronger projectile than the other pieces.
• Up Special: (Step)ladder
  • (Step)ladder: Maya/Kay appear and setup a stepladder for Phoenix/Edgeworth to climb up while arguing if it's a ladder or stepladder. The ladder is longer in Turnabout Mode.
• Down Special: Medium's Protection/Great Thief Yatagarasu
  • Medium's Protection: Maya appears and readies herself to attempt to reflect a projectile by preparing to summon a psychic shield. If no projectile is reflected, she faceplants, dealing slight damage with a chance to trip. In Turnabout Mode, Maya always summons a shield regardless of if a projectile is reflected, which also allows Phoenix to move during the move. No longer trips, but can block weaker attacks, like a gimped version of Pit's Guardian Orbitars.
  • Great Thief Yatagarasu: Kay appears and boots up Little Thief, creating spinning green cyber screens that damage opponents and steal any held or grounded items it touches. Can be angled up, in front, or behind Edgeworth. Damage and range increased in Turnabout mode.
• Final Smash: Judge's Verdict
  • Judge's Verdict: A giant gavel smashes in front of Phoenix/Edgeworth, teleporting anyone hit into a cutscene. The judge will declare characters caught in the move Guilty. Instantly KOs opponents above 100%.

General idea is to play carefully with your specials to build up Turnabout Mode, where you can then finish them off with an Objection!. Don't want to take too many penalties by whiffing, just like in Ace Attorney. Not sure how exactly the gauge would be balanced or if some normals would affect it but that's not the point of a theoretical moveset anyway.

Spoiler: Classic Mode

• Phoenix Wright: Falsely Accused (Team Battles with characters falsely accused of crimes)
  • Mario vs. Edgeworth & Bowser Jr.
  • Cloud vs. Edgeworth & Mii Gunner
  • Toon Link vs. Edgeworth & Ganondorf
  • Snake vs. Edgeworth & Gray Fox AT
  • Corrin vs. Edgeworth & Black Knight AT
  • Sonic vs. Edgeworth & Shadow AT
  • Boss: Crazy Hand
• Miles Edgeworth: Seeker of Truth (Battle against characters hiding something)
  • Sheik
  • Snake
  • Meta Knight
  • Lucina
  • King K. Rool
  • Samus
  • Boss: Master Hand

Maybe had to stretch for some of these but it gets the job done.

Spoiler: Music List

I can't choose between all my babies so I put 31 songs in while trying to maintain a somewhat balanced spread. 31 isn't too many, right?

1. Pursuit ~ Cornered
2. Pursuit ~ Wanting to Find the Truth
3. Pursuit ~ The Great Turnabout
4. Courtroom Lobby Trilogy Medley (Remix)
5. Cross-Examination ~ Allegro (2001)
6. Confrontation ~ Presto (2011)
7. Court Begins (2001)
8. Objection! (2001)
9. Miles Edgeworth ~ Objection! (2011)
10. Objection! ~ Phoenix Wright (2013)
11. Apollo Justice ~ A New Chapter of Trials (2013)
12. Athena Cykes ~ Courtroom Revolutionnaire (2013)
13. Naruhodo Ryunosuke ~ Objection!
14. Larry Butz ~ When Something Smells, It's Usually Me
15. Great Revival (Remix)
16. It's Detective Gumshoe, Pal!
17. Damon Gant ~ Swimming, Anyone?
18. Godot ~ The Fragrance of Dark Colored Coffee
19. Klavier Gavin ~ Guilty Love
20. Simon Blackquill ~ Twisted Swordsmanship
21. Kay Faraday ~ The Great Truth Burglar
22. Shi-Long Lang ~ Speak Up, Pup!
23. Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive
24. Investigation (Remix)
25. People Medley (Remix)
26. Turnabout Sisters
27. Steel Samurai
28. Troupe Gramarye
29. Suspense (Remix)
30. Revisualization ~ Synaptic Resonance
31. Logic Chess

 

[ahemtoday]

Personally, I think the element of Ace Attorney most important to convey is carefully examining your opponent's attacks, drawing out a weak spot, and using the exact right tool to counter it and blow them away. So a moveset that doesn't specifically capture that is always going to feel a little off to me.

I tried to sit down and put together a moveset for Nick once, and I think the best thing I found was the idea of having pieces of evidence corresponding to different attack types - one for up tilts, and one for side specials, and so on. And then if you had a matching piece of evidence, you could hit an opponent with your objection and if they were doing that attack they'd take a bunch of damage. I think there was also a Psyche-Lock special that tied into it, too? I don't know, I'm not sure it was such a good idea anyhow.

 

[SharkLord]

From what I can gather, the following could represent Phoenix pretty well:

1. Exaggerated word bubbles and motions for his normals.
2. Some sort of evidence collecting. Something like either Steve's mining or Villager's Pocket, maybe somewhere between the two.
3. A turnaround mechanic, where Phoenix figures out what's going on and rips into the culprit. Maybe like some sort of super mode?
4. On a related note, maybe a counter move that's a literal counterargument? Haven't played the games, but it seems pretty logical for Nick to dispute and shoot down the opponent's claim, since he's, y'know, an attorney.
5. Maya pitching in for a couple moves, being his assistant who helps him out throughout the game
6. A ladder that may or may not also qualify as a stepladder

 

[ShrimpScampi]

Oh boy it's Phoenix time! I'm already on Case 3 of Dual Destinies in my full-franchise replay before the Great Ace Attorney Chronicles releases, so I'm in full Ace Attorney mode haha.

I could see Phoenix's moveset going a couple of directions. There's the possibility of an evidence-gathering mechanic or a turnabout mode, and I really like the idea of Maya pitching in for some moves, since her role in the trilogy is so important. One idea I had a while back would be having specific important pieces of evidence throughout the franchise assigned to tilts, dash attack, or aerials. I'd want to make it clear that he's not using them as weapons, just pulling them out and presenting them. Because of that, I'd want to stay away from obvious weapons (Phoenix isn't going to "present" a gun by shooting it, for example).

Some evidence that could work like this:

Spoiler: Evidence list -- just in a spoiler for space's sake, actual spoilers are inlined

Samurai Spear (Case 1-3): This stage prop could work as a big disjoint where he points diagonally upward with it. It wouldn't be super powerful on account of being held together by duct tape, but it could be a good anti-air.

Metal Detector (Case 1-4): This could be another disjoint, but closer to the ground, as Phoenix briefly pulls out the detector to examine the ground in front of him. Would make the most sense as a down tilt, but I also like the UMvC3 low attack where he crouches down and examines the ground by hand.

Max Galactica's Bust (Case 2-3): This could be a good down-air, where Nick tries to present this but drops it by mistake. It could work like Steve's anvil, but instead of hanging onto the bust with the option to jump off of it, Phoenix would just drop it. I was also considering (case 1-1/1-2) the Thinker as an option for this kind of move, but I think even if he's just dropping it by mistake, it would be a bit cruel to give Phoenix Mia's murder weapon as an attack.

Kurain Sacred Urn (Case 2-2 / 3-2): This would be perfect for a dash attack like Isabelle's, considering this thing's tendency to get shattered. Alternatively, the oddly-shaped vase from Case 1-5 could also work for this.

Phony Phanty (Case 5-1): He's a pretty silly-looking plush, but he plays a big role in the first case of Dual Destinies. Game & Watch forward air, anyone?

Time Keeper (Case 6-DLC): I could see this being a heavier attack, considering it's a pretty sturdy blimp model about the size of a lamp.

I was also thinking about how to handle the Magatama. I remember seeing in a moveset video somewhere the idea to have the Magatama be his grab, and the chains & Psyche-locks would appear around someone when they're being held in place. Maybe the higher their damage, the more locks they have around them when they're being held (a purely visual effect, but it could work as an indicator for Phoenix about how many pummels he can get in).

An alternative that I thought of a while ago (although now I'm not as big a fan of it) was having it be a move-disabling counter. Say someone runs up and tries to F-smash Phoenix, but he manages to land the Magatama counter. Then a Psyche-lock would appear around the opponent and F-smash would be disabled for a short amount of time. After thinking about it for a while, though, I think that would be both really hard to balance and antithetical to how Phoenix actually uses the Magatama. The goal of the Magatama is to break the Psyche-Locks to get to the truth, not add locks. So I kind of threw that idea away.

As for a stage, my pick would be Courtroom No. 4 from Dual Destinies (the one that gets blown up at the very beginning of the game). I think any courtroom would be sufficient, but if they wanted a dynamic stage change, then going between normal and destroyed variations would certainly be one way to do it. As for stage cameos, I think each battle, there should be a defense attorney and a prosecutor on either side, and a handful of witnesses for them to shuffle through. The attorneys would probably be limited to Apollo or Athena (maybe with a really rare chance of [case 3-3]Xin Eohp if they wanted to get cheeky), whereas they'd have a whole slew of prosecutors to choose from.

And I said this in the main speculation thread a while back, but my ideal Mii costumes to go with Phoenix would be the in-universe mascots -- namely, the Steel Samurai as a swordfighter and the Blue Badger as a brawler. I think costumes of other important characters like Edgeworth or Godot would be cool for sure, but I just really love the idea of running around in a Steel Samurai costume lol.

As for a question, any remixes you would want to come with Phoenix (and any particular composers you'd like to see remix them)? For me, I would go nuts if ACE did a remix of basically any AA track. There is one song I would love to see Jun Senoue remix, though, and that's Prosecutor Gavin's theme, Guilty Love. Giving the theme of the rock god prosecutor to the guitar king of the Sonic franchise just fits too well.

 

[cashregister9]

I recently made a Phoenix Wright moveset and I already made a spirit board, here it is.

Spoiler

Gimmicks: Throughout the Match Items will spawn that are Considered "Evidence" if Phoenix picks one up it gets added to his evidence bar he can have up to five. With each piece of evidence Phoenix's Neutral B will gain more and more power and size as well as his down B gaining more potential power, Nick's throws and grab range become more powerful as well. The Appearance of the evidence is famous pieces from throughout the franchise like the Thinker Statue and the Kurain Urn.

Phoenix is accompanied by Maya Fey she follows Nick on the Battlefield and she cannot take damage, and is mostly cosmetic and she helps with specific attacks

--Stats--

Weight: Heavier than link

Fall speed: Same as Villager

Air Speed: Same as Villager

Initial Dash: Same as Link

Run Speed: Same as Ken


--Basic Attacks--

Jab: Maya sets off a party popper if the button is held Maya showers the enemy in confetti, this acts as a rapid jab

Side tilt: Phoenix Points forwards

Up tilt: Phoenix flips a coin in the air

Down tilt: Phoenix falls on the ground

Dash Attack: Nick trips over himself and Maya looks stunned

Side Smash: Nick points and shouts "TAKE THAT" and a Speech bubble appears

Up Smash: Maya jumps excitedly in the air with her hands up

Down Smash: Nick drops a large stack of papers onto the ground works similarly to Villagers

Neutral air: Nick Sneezes in air

Forward Air: Nick throws a large amount of papers

Back Air: A very hasty and defensive kick backwards

Up Air: Nick falls in the air inadvertently performing a somersault

Down Air: Nick panics and quickly falls to the ground doing a faceplant, this is a stall and fall


--Specials--


Neutral: OBJECTION!, Nick points his finger and shouts objection a speech bubble appears dealing damage and knockback scales with evidence

Down: Pressing Pursuit, Nick will consume all Evidence and gain a blue glow 1 piece of evidence increases speed, 2 Pieces increases jump height, 3 Pieces increases all damage, 4 pieces increases size, 5 pieces gives Nick instant final smash regardless of if Smash meter or Smash balls appear.

Side: Luminol, Nick sprays luminol fluid forward, anyone hit by it is marked with it, Those who are marked turn blue once Phoenix activates Pressing Pursuit, and all of those who are marked take double damage from Nick. The color changes if multiple players are playing phoenix.

Up: Stepladder/Ladder, On the ground Nick places down a stepladder and climes it. If used in the air, Nick will throw up a rope ladder that attaches to the side of the stage.

Final Smash: Guilty Verdict, Nick and Maya will shout OBJECTION and a speech bubble will come out starting a cutscene where Nick and Multiple other characters look down upon the witness stand where the Judge then Slams his gavel onto the stand.


--Grabs--

Basic grab: Phoenix shouts "HOLD IT" as the speech bubble appears and if the opponent is in the bubble they are caught in 2 looping chains and a lock appears
Phoenix is then seen holding the Magatama

Pummel: The chains constrict the opponent

F-throw: The Lock explodes sending the opponent forwards

B-throw: The Lock explodes sending the opponent backwards

U-throw: The Lock explodes sending the opponent upwards

D-throw: The Lock explodes grounding the opponent


--Animations--

Entrance: The Gates of the courthouse opens and Nick and Maya walk through them

Up taunt: Phoenix starts sweating

Side Taunt: Nick taps on some papers in his hand

Down Taunt: Phoenix puts his hands on his hips and looks confident

Victory 1: Nick shouts Objection and points while Pearl and Maya stand behind him

Victory 2: Phoenix Wright Points to the Sky and Maya looks Upwards too

Victory 3: Phoenix scratches the back of his head whilst Maya smiles at the camera.

--Alts--

1: Older Phoenix Wright and Maya

2: Young Phoenix Wright and Maya

3: Old Colors that look like Godot and Franziska

4: Young Colors that look like Larry Butz, Maya looks like Pearl

5: Old Colors for Nick that look like Miles Edgeworth, Colors For Maya that look like Kay Faraday

6: Young Colors for Nick that look like Apollo Justce, Colors For Maya that look like Trucy Wright

7: Hobo Phoenix wright and for Maya a costume that represent's Sister Iris' robes from Trials and Tribulations

8: Sweater Phoenix and for Maya the maid costume she wore in Trials and Tribulations

Stage
The Courtroom: It is a walkoff and it is looking down onto the courtroom The cameos are at the Witness stand as well as the Prosecutor and Defense stands and then the judge in the middle. There are no real gimmicks.

The cameos are as follows
--Witness Stand
-Larry Butz
-Gumshoe
-Maggey Byrd
--Defense Stand
-Mia Fey
-Apollo Justice
-Raymond Shields
-Athena Cykes
-Trucy Wright
-Ema Skye
--Prosecution Stand
-Miles Edgeworth
-Godot
-Franziska
-Klavier
-Simon Blackquill
-Kay Faraday


--Music--

Victory music: Won The Case!

Remixes:
Pursuit ~ Cornered
Objection!
Turnabout Sisters Theme
Telling The Truth


Regular music:

Middle Stage 2004
The Fragrance of Dark Colored Coffee
It's Detective Gumshoe
I Can Do It When It Counts, Pal
Presto 2009
Great Revival
Steel Samurai
A New Chapter Of Trials 2016
Pursuit ~ Wanting To Find The Truth
A New Trial is in Session!
Pressing Pursuit ~ Cross-Examine
Wandering Detective From the Wild West
Logic and Tricks
Happy People
Athena Cykes ~ Courtroom Révolutionnaire 2016
Pursuit ~ Lying Coldly
Pursuit ~ The Great Turnabout

--Classic Mode--

Name: Trials and Tribulations (Battles against villains and the hero is helping Phoenix, all battles are on the courtroom) (friendlies are first)

The First: Pit, Dark Pit (A New Chapter Of Trials 2016)

The Second: Samus, Ridley (Pursuit ~ The Great Turnabout)

The Third: Donkey Kong, K. Rool (Pursuit ~ Wanting To Find The Truth )

The Fourth: Link, Ganon (Steel Samurai)

The Fifth: Peach, Bowser (Telling The Truth)

The Sixth: Mario, Wario (Objection!)

The Boss: Simon and Richter, Dracula (Pursuit ~ Cornered)


Spirits

--Kirby--
Kirby Gains Phoenixes hair and eyebrows, Kirby can also pick up evidence to power up OBJECTION!

--Series Icon--
Nick's Attorney Badge

--Boxing Ring Title--
The Ace Attorney

--Misc--
When Nick crouches he looks like he is trying to find something on the ground and Evidence spawn rates increase
When Nick Wins the Match transitions into the Victory Screen with the Words "Not Guilty" appearing on screen

 

[Yiptap]

I came up with an idea for an Ace Attorney Assist Trophy not too long ago, now seems like an appropriate time to share it. And who is this, you may ask?

Franziska Von Karma
Yup. Of all the characters I could have chosen, I went with Franziska. Well hear me out. Franziska would spawn and snap her whip forward before quickly performing the sprite shown below:

She would then walk slowly, but confidentially on the stage. When she's close enough to a fighter, she would then attack with her whip, which launches far and has great K.O. potential. This would continue for a bit until Franziska is about to leave, where she dashes to the closest fighter (except the one that summoned her) and whip them 5 times in a row, sending them flying. Let me know if you like this idea!

Also, I have a question: What would Phoenix's final smash be like? I've seen several moveset concepts, but they were very similar or identical to the MvC3 Super Move.

 

[Deleted member]

I came up with an idea for an Ace Attorney Assist Trophy not too long ago, now seems like an appropriate time to share it. And who is this, you may ask?

Franziska Von Karma
Yup. Of all the characters I could have chosen, I went with Franziska. Well hear me out. Franziska would spawn and snap her whip forward before quickly performing the sprite shown below:

She would then walk slowly, but confidentially on the stage. When she's close enough to a fighter, she would then attack with her whip, which launches far and has great K.O. potential. This would continue for a bit until Franziska is about to leave, where she dashes to the closest fighter (except the one that summoned her) and whip them 5 times in a row, sending them flying. Let me know if you like this idea!

Also, I have a question: What would Phoenix's final smash be like? I've seen several moveset concepts, but they were very similar or identical to the MvC3 Super Move.

Franziska would be a great Assist Trophy. The only way it’d be better is if Larry showed up parading his parody picture book around like the clown he is and that’s what causes Franziska to leave.

I think most final smash concepts you see are gonna be a variant of the MvC super because it just makes the most sense. The verdict is what every case is building towards so it’s no surprise people gravitate towards the idea for a super, especially since it’s been executed perfectly before. If you want a different final smash idea you could lean into Mia’s assistance, either through channeling or that one scene in AA3 (anyone who played it should know what I’m referring to). Another idea is a team Objection! with Athena & Apollo, with maybe some other characters showing up.

Oh boy it's Phoenix time! I'm already on Case 3 of Dual Destinies in my full-franchise replay before the Great Ace Attorney Chronicles releases, so I'm in full Ace Attorney mode haha.

I could see Phoenix's moveset going a couple of directions. There's the possibility of an evidence-gathering mechanic or a turnabout mode, and I really like the idea of Maya pitching in for some moves, since her role in the trilogy is so important. One idea I had a while back would be having specific important pieces of evidence throughout the franchise assigned to tilts, dash attack, or aerials. I'd want to make it clear that he's not using them as weapons, just pulling them out and presenting them. Because of that, I'd want to stay away from obvious weapons (Phoenix isn't going to "present" a gun by shooting it, for example).

Some evidence that could work like this:

Spoiler: Evidence list -- just in a spoiler for space's sake, actual spoilers are inlined

Samurai Spear (Case 1-3): This stage prop could work as a big disjoint where he points diagonally upward with it. It wouldn't be super powerful on account of being held together by duct tape, but it could be a good anti-air.

Metal Detector (Case 1-4): This could be another disjoint, but closer to the ground, as Phoenix briefly pulls out the detector to examine the ground in front of him. Would make the most sense as a down tilt, but I also like the UMvC3 low attack where he crouches down and examines the ground by hand.

Max Galactica's Bust (Case 2-3): This could be a good down-air, where Nick tries to present this but drops it by mistake. It could work like Steve's anvil, but instead of hanging onto the bust with the option to jump off of it, Phoenix would just drop it. I was also considering (case 1-1/1-2) the Thinker as an option for this kind of move, but I think even if he's just dropping it by mistake, it would be a bit cruel to give Phoenix Mia's murder weapon as an attack.

View attachment 314230
Kurain Sacred Urn (Case 2-2 / 3-2): This would be perfect for a dash attack like Isabelle's, considering this thing's tendency to get shattered. Alternatively, the oddly-shaped vase from Case 1-5 could also work for this.

Phony Phanty (Case 5-1): He's a pretty silly-looking plush, but he plays a big role in the first case of Dual Destinies. Game & Watch forward air, anyone?

Time Keeper (Case 6-DLC): I could see this being a heavier attack, considering it's a pretty sturdy blimp model about the size of a lamp.

I was also thinking about how to handle the Magatama. I remember seeing in a moveset video somewhere the idea to have the Magatama be his grab, and the chains & Psyche-locks would appear around someone when they're being held in place. Maybe the higher their damage, the more locks they have around them when they're being held (a purely visual effect, but it could work as an indicator for Phoenix about how many pummels he can get in).

An alternative that I thought of a while ago (although now I'm not as big a fan of it) was having it be a move-disabling counter. Say someone runs up and tries to F-smash Phoenix, but he manages to land the Magatama counter. Then a Psyche-lock would appear around the opponent and F-smash would be disabled for a short amount of time. After thinking about it for a while, though, I think that would be both really hard to balance and antithetical to how Phoenix actually uses the Magatama. The goal of the Magatama is to break the Psyche-Locks to get to the truth, not add locks. So I kind of threw that idea away.

As for a stage, my pick would be Courtroom No. 4 from Dual Destinies (the one that gets blown up at the very beginning of the game). I think any courtroom would be sufficient, but if they wanted a dynamic stage change, then going between normal and destroyed variations would certainly be one way to do it. As for stage cameos, I think each battle, there should be a defense attorney and a prosecutor on either side, and a handful of witnesses for them to shuffle through. The attorneys would probably be limited to Apollo or Athena (maybe with a really rare chance of [case 3-3]Xin Eohp if they wanted to get cheeky), whereas they'd have a whole slew of prosecutors to choose from.

And I said this in the main speculation thread a while back, but my ideal Mii costumes to go with Phoenix would be the in-universe mascots -- namely, the Steel Samurai as a swordfighter and the Blue Badger as a brawler. I think costumes of other important characters like Edgeworth or Godot would be cool for sure, but I just really love the idea of running around in a Steel Samurai costume lol.

As for a question, any remixes you would want to come with Phoenix (and any particular composers you'd like to see remix them)? For me, I would go nuts if ACE did a remix of basically any AA track. There is one song I would love to see Jun Senoue remix, though, and that's Prosecutor Gavin's theme, Guilty Love. Giving the theme of the rock god prosecutor to the guitar king of the Sonic franchise just fits too well.

The Blue Badger and Steel Samurai are musts for Mii Costumes, but I’d also like to see the Judge as a swordfighter if only to slap people around with a gavel. Guilty Love could really use a remix as well. Personally, I’d really like to see what a Smash remix of Suspense would look like. It’s such an iconic song but quite short, so seeing it get the Duck Hunt treatment would be amazing, especially if they maintain the general atmosphere it has going.

I really like how your moveset handles evidence by the way. Making sure Phoenix doesn’t come off as a killer when utilizing various murder weapons and other evidence is pretty important, although I still think it’d be funny to see him clobber Mario with a certain clock.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've been wondering, is Ryunosuke similar enough to Nick to work as an alt? I know he wields a sword but I don't know how big of a deal it is, the reason I ask is because I think Apollo and Athena share the same brand of goofiness so they'd be much more fitting as alts than Edgeworth

What would Phoenix's final smash be like? I've seen several moveset concepts, but they were very similar or identical to the MvC3 Super Move.

To be fair it's the most obvious solution, though I saw an option that's pretty much perfect a while ago, if you'd please skip to exactly 25 minutes in

TLDW: A quick back and forth of Nick and Edgeworth yelling back and forth with a bunch of speech bubbles until the Judge slams down his gavel.

I've always wondered about how Psychelocks could work in Smash and I think I have an idea, use it as a counter that has a unique function. Nick is unable to use the magatama without it going off first in the games so it makes sense to function like this, what this counter would do is wrap the foe who triggered it in chains and locks, immobilizing the foe to allow Nick to either go on the offense or collect evidence assuming he has the MvC mechanic.

An idea I have for the Mood Matrix is that it'd work somewhat similar to command menu as pressing the button for it gives you 4 options based on all 4 responses the Mood Matrix shows, where you'll be able to choose the attack by pointing in the direction corresponding with the emotions, giving you a unique attack from it, though I haven't thought on what those 4 moves would be

 

[AnEasterEgg]

I feel like if we go by design I prefer his Apollo Justice appearance as the main design (the one that is used for today's image), despite been playing the original trilogy and haven't really touched the sequel I prefer that design more.

I'd like to see both available, personally. Four of each maybe.

Regarding spirits, they'd most likely be characters from the original trilogy. Sakurai generally seems to focus on the original games, and even with the largest DLC spirit board so far there isn't a ton of room so it's probably for the best to keep it focused. I'd like to see the recurring characters mainly, the prosecutors, the judge, Larry, Maya, Mia, maybe some of the killers.

 

[Commander_Alph]

the reason I ask is because I think Apollo and Athena share the same brand of goofiness so they'd be much more fitting as alts than Edgeworth

First thing first I don't think Apollo could actually be an alt because of this:

Idk if this is true or not but considering his in-game model from his home series is shorter than Phoenix (even being compared to him) so I think Sakurai at some point would take that model as a reference. It'll be stupid of me to believe in a meme

 

[Cutie Gwen]

First thing first I don't think Apollo could actually be an alt because of this:

Idk if this is true or not but considering his in-game model from his home series is shorter than Phoenix (even being compared to him) so I think Sakurai at some point would take that model as a reference. It'll be stupid of me to believe in a meme

Yeah I'm afraid fans love exaggerating Apollo's height, Smash also enjoys screwing with heights constantly so it wouldn't really matter

 

[AnEasterEgg]

Yeah, Edgeworth is the one who'd work best as an alt/echo. The figure of the others is too different, so they would just have alt colors referencing them. They could be added as a clone in a future game though.

 

[cashregister9]

If we are talking alts, then I think Phoenix and Maya just by themselves would be the best maybe with their old or young forms, Edgeworth and Apollo are much better as Echoes as personalities and skill sets are just different enough. But if you just have Phoenix without Maya then I could see Apollo as a costume, Edgeworth is just too different to work as a costume.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, Edgeworth is the one who'd work best as an alt/echo. The figure of the others is too different, so they would just have alt colors referencing them. They could be added as a clone in a future game though.

I disagree on the alt part, Edgeworth's brand of goofiness is too different, Nick is just a goddamned clown whereas Edgeworth is overly posh, best compared to how they both react to an animal abusing them or their assistants, Edgeworth just points and says "Stop that this instant!" While Nick goes feral to settle things man to monkey". Apollo and Athena however have the same slapstick butt monkey type of humour as Nick in the series so they match up better.

 

[AnEasterEgg]

It would depend on the moveset I suppose. If it has too much goofiness it wouldn't really work, I agree.

 

[PeridotGX]

I think Edgeworth and Phoenix would be able to be clones of each other, but not alts. A Mario/Dr. Mario level of uniqueness would be ideal, where the difference is mostly in stats. Phoenix would be a more defense-based character, looking for the moment where his opponent slips up to do big damage. Edgeworth would be far more direct, constantly on the offensive. Phoenix is a defense attorney, Edgeworth is a prosecutor, it lines up.

 

[SharkLord]

Alright, here's a question.

If we got a different Ace Attorney character - Likely Edgeworth, Apollo, or Athena - As a separate fighter, how much would be changed? I think they have some differences in how they go about things, but I'm not sure exactly what those differences are. I'm curious as to how they'd be handled.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Alright, here's a question.

If we got a different Ace Attorney character - Likely Edgeworth, Apollo, or Athena - As a separate fighter, how much would be changed? I think they have some differences in how they go about things, but I'm not sure exactly what those differences are. I'm curious as to how they'd be handled.

The big change is aesthetics, meaning that the characters will get unique animations. Beyond that? Maybe Perceive and Mood Matrix changes and if Nick has moves featuring Maya, Edgeworth would have Gumshoe and maybe Kay while Apollo uses Trucy. Athena doesn't have any assistant character of her own so maybe she'd flat out get a new move involving her athleticism

 

[Pillow]

Alright, here's a question.

If we got a different Ace Attorney character - Likely Edgeworth, Apollo, or Athena - As a separate fighter, how much would be changed? I think they have some differences in how they go about things, but I'm not sure exactly what those differences are. I'm curious as to how they'd be handled.

I'd say they would probably be Isabelle style clones. They share similar body types and all do finger points and stuff, though they'd each have unique moves based on their expressions in game as well as their specialties giving them different special moves (bracelet / mood matrix / whatever Edgeworth has).

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, here's a question.

If we got a different Ace Attorney character - Likely Edgeworth, Apollo, or Athena - As a separate fighter, how much would be changed? I think they have some differences in how they go about things, but I'm not sure exactly what those differences are. I'm curious as to how they'd be handled.

A lot of personality changes in the animations for things like idles, taunts, & getting hit. Whereas Phoenix is likely to use his shocked face in hitstun, that'd have to be changed to the corresponding sprite of the other character. Playstyle-wise, Edgeworth as a prosecutor should lean to be more offensive in playstyle, although I'm not sure how exactly that would translate to Smash beyond stat changes like less weight & higher move speed. Apollo and Athena do have their own differences from Phoenix, but a general playstyle of waiting for openings and exploiting them is similar enough, just with Perceive & the Mood Matrix instead of the Magatama. If anything I'd expect Athena to be more aggressive since she's still relatively new to things. Edgeworth's corresponding gimmick would be Logic Chess from Investigations 2, where he yeets giant chess pieces at people.

 

[Pillow]

The big change is aesthetics, meaning that the characters will get unique animations. Beyond that? Maybe Perceive and Mood Matrix changes and if Nick has moves featuring Maya, Edgeworth would have Gumshoe and maybe Kay while Apollo uses Trucy. Athena doesn't have any assistant character of her own so maybe she'd flat out get a new move involving her athleticism

Athean's mood matrix buddy could also be used in equivalent "buddy" moves, assuming she's a clone. Not having limbs means it might have to look quite a bit different but depending on the move it shouldn't be too hard to give it a similar effect.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh wait, Logic Chess is a thing, Edgeworth uses it to draw info out of people by pressuring them mid conversation, maybe translate this as the phone attack from MvC where a chess piece will hover for a while before homing in on an enemy to provide extra pressure?

 

[Deleted member]

Oh wait, Logic Chess is a thing, Edgeworth uses it to draw info out of people by pressuring them mid conversation, maybe translate this as the phone attack from MvC where a chess piece will hover for a while before homing in on an enemy to provide extra pressure?

Kind of like Sephiroth's side special? That's a pretty neat implementation to translate his pressure game into a fighting game.

Edit: Oops I think you meant more like Duck Hunt's down b.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Question, Since we have drawn the line between Defense Attorney playing defense and Prosecutor playing offense, do their Final Smash be the same? I believe in terms of animation.