Character Discussion Thread

[Kenith]

Dude, you can argue all you want, but we already have an example of Rhythm Heaven content in 2D. You're arguing against Sakurai on what needs to be consistent.

Don't patronize me because I don't see your point.

Spoiler

That right there is 100% proof of my point. You claim that a small sprite-based enemy from Rhythm Heaven completely ensures that a playable character from the series, if there even is one, will also be sprite based.

 

[Pacack]

Don't patronize me because I don't see your point.

Spoiler

That right there is 100% proof of my point. You claim that a small sprite-based enemy from Rhythm Heaven completely ensures that a playable character from the series, if there even is one, will also be sprite based.

Yes, that is what I claim. Why make only the spirit flat?

 

[Deleted member]

I guess that means Toon Link will be cel-shaded, seeing as all the content from his game is.

The playable characters stay faithful to their games, but also are consistent with the other characters.

I guess that means Game & Watch won't be 2D, monochrome, and have frame by frame animation this time around. But really, all that matters is if the characters fit in and stay true to their original design. Rhythm heaven characters, as well game & Watch, look best in their 2D forms. Toon Link doesn't need to be shell-shaded because he's already 3D, but as long as he's bright, and look just like himself from wind waker, there is no issue. The reason characters like pit or ice climbers are 3D is because that's what they would look like in their transition to 3D, but the Rhythm Heaven art style is 2D, so the characters would most likely stay true to it.

 

[Gunla]

Characters don't need to be consistent with other characters outside their series.
When it's the same series they'd likely share art styles and incarnations (having TP Link and SS Zelda would be weird and contradictory unless there was alternate costumes for SS Link and TP Zelda)

When the series are different, it's fine for a series to look strikingly different from others because they'd stay true to their own art style. Not every character has to have a Monochrome, Toon, etc. version, but if a series has a certain art style they stick with they'll likely stick to that art style. Rhythm Heaven hasn't really ever been a 3D game, so it makes sense for them all to be 2D. Same goes to Game and Watch.

Don't patronize me because I don't see your point.

Spoiler

That right there is 100% proof of my point. You claim that a small sprite-based enemy from Rhythm Heaven completely ensures that a playable character from the series, if there even is one, will also be sprite based.

The issue is that Toon Link has been 2D and 3D. The Pirate Ship is from Wind Waker, a 3D Zelda. They'd keep consistency series wise unless the level/character itself has a gimmick to appear sprite based (which only occurs with stuff like 75m or Mario Bros. Arcade. Having Paper Mario 2D would make sense because he's only known to be in 2D (this being a special case) and so in that regard having regular Mario and Paper Mario be different dimensions would flow seamlessly.

 

[Kenith]

Yes, that is what I claim. Why make only the spirit flat?

Because placing an insignificant enemy from a sprite based series requires next to no effort?
All it does is move up and down in random places. There's no reason to make a model for it; it's not how it looks in it's own game, and it's movement, unlike a playable character, is not very complex.

Not even Mr. Game & Watch is actually a sprite, that probably isn't feasible. However, the difference is, he is a flat black model with an outline, you can't tell he's not 3D.

With a character that has slightly more complex colors, like Rhythm Heaven characters, making them flat 3D models would look less like this

and more like this

That's what happens when you translate a cartoon character into a 3D game. It doesn't look bad, but it's not faithful to the original series, and, more to the point, doesn't fit in with the detailed and HD models of the other characters.

 

[Louie G.]

Actually, Game and Watch is a 3D model.

He just appears 2D. His model is created 3D.

Chorus Kids could be similar, or even be flat out 2D.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Take the Guilty Gear Xrd route and use 3D models but make them act like sprites.

Problem solved.

 

[Kenith]

Actually, Game and Watch is a 3D model.

He just appears 2D. His model is created 3D.

Chorus Kids could be similar, or even be flat out 2D.

I just addressed that. Scroll up please.

 

[Phaazoid]

Those two don't know jack squat about game development.

Get @thethirdkoopa instead.

; (

You don't know me

None of you know me

GET OUT OF MY HEAAAAAD

(Seriously though, I'm the president of the game design club at the university of maryland CP, for starters... I do have some credentials)

 

[Pacack]

Because placing an insignificant enemy from a sprite based series requires next to no effort?
All it does is move up and down in random places. There's no reason to make a model for it; it's not how it looks in it's own game, and it's movement, unlike a playable character, is not very complex.

Not even Mr. Game & Watch is actually a sprite, that probably isn't feasible. However, the difference is, he is a flat black model with an outline, you can't tell he's not 3D.

With a character that has slightly more complex colors, like Rhythm Heaven characters, making them flat 3D models would look less like this

and more like this

That's what happens when you translate a cartoon character into a 3D game. It doesn't look bad, but it's not faithful to the original series, and, more to the point, doesn't fit in with the detailed and HD models of the other characters.

I'm arguing that, if Chorus Kids are indeed in, then they will be in the same art style as the rest of their series' content. We're not going to have a 3D Chorus Kids and a 2D Sneaky Spirit. Since we already have precedent in the Sneaky Spirit being 2D, we should assume that any playable character from the series would also be 2D. If a character was added and was 3D, the rest of the content (including the Sneaky Spirit) would also be 3D. But the Sneaky Spirit isn't. See my point?

 

[Kenith]

I'm arguing that, if Chorus Kids are indeed in, then they will be in the same art style as the rest of their content. We're not going to have a 3D Chorus Kids and a 2D Sneaky Spirit. Since we already have precedent in the Sneaky Spirit being 2D, we should assume that any playable character from the series would also be 2D. If a character was added and was 3D, the rest of the content (including the Sneaky Spirit) would also be 3D. But the Sneaky Spirit isn't. See my point?

No, I don't see it, because there is a lot of evidence against it.

They could have made Pac-Man's stage 3D, it's been done before, but they didn't. And Pac-Man himself is 3D.

 

[Hong]

For what it's worth, it's not like they have always made the best decisions.

Wind Waker is my favourite 3d Legend of Zelda game, but I'd be lying if I said I was pleased with how he looks in Smash Bros. His character model looks better in the GameCube version of the game alone, let alone the HD remake. The ambient occlusion, how the shading is handled, just does not look right in Smash Bros IMO. They had very specific lightning techniques in Wind Waker to make the art style work, but the characters and environment share the same lighting, so the simulated effects of Wind Waker don't quite translate. With Toon Link, they did the best that they could.

The Chorus Men, having a significantly more simplistic art direction and being devoid of colour, among other reasons, will not have the same problems. That said, they can still lose their lustre if they are dropped into the fray. Mr. Sakurai may or may not feel the same way about their look, but if he has a good idea for how the character should play, he'll go through with it and try his hardest.

 

[Louie G.]

I just addressed that. Scroll up please.

My mistake.

The 3D renders of Chorus Kids that I've seen just don't do it for me.
Their Ed Edd n Eddy sketch style makes them stand out, even among the likes of Game & Watch.

And I just realized that Kenith supports Paper Mario.
BIASCOUGHHACKWHEEZE

 

[Pacack]

No, I don't see it, because there is a lot of evidence against it.

They could have made Pac-Man's stage 3D, it's been done before, but they didn't. And Pac-Man himself is 3D.

Different scenario. Sprite Pac-Man couldn't work, that design of Pac-Man is often used alongside the classic game and its sprites, this could be considered a retro stage, and enemies in Smash Run so far have fit the style of their series' character.

 

[Kenith]

My mistake.
The 3D renders of Chorus Kids that I've seen just don't do it for me.
Their Ed Edd n Eddy sketch style makes them stand out, even among the likes of Game & Watch.
And I just realized that Kenith supports Paper Mario.
BIASCOUGHHACKWHEEZE

I knew you would pull that card eventually.

The difference is that Paper Mario is paper; he is literally a flat character in a 3d world.
He bends in 3d ways, he turns into 3d shapes.

The only reason Chorus Men would be 3d is because they are cartoons.

(And frankly, I am sick of your obsession with the word "bias". You use the word to make people look like fools and get you cheap likes).

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Are... Are you serious? We're having genuine arguments on how the CK would work? It's dead simple. Single model, mirrored on both sides either in the foreground/background or on either side. Character gets hit? Others flinch and react too. Character gets launched? They do the Flying V. Example:

o--o--o
^-- You!

X hits You, the other two react identically as though they were hit too.

X launches You, this happens.

o---o <-- You!
|
o

The other two either mirror the player model or just do certain animations at certain times. They in no way count as characters on the battlefield(can't grab ledges, unless that's a unique move, you don't hit 3 times when you attack unless that's a unique attribute).

Edit: BLAST IT. Formatting ate my spacing. :\ I can draw it out if you really need me to, but I hope you get the idea.

 

[Louie G.]

And frankly, I am sick of your obsession with the word "bias". You use the word to make people look like fools and get you cheap likes).

I'm sorry. But that's not the reason I say it, it's because sometimes people very often act biased.

You're right about Paper Mario. He's one of my most wanted newcomers, btw.

And I see no reason why cartoon characters can't remain a cartoon style.
Game & Watch doesn't have a cartoon style, therefore the Kids wouldn't steal anything unique from him by being 2D.
Yes, I read your post about Goku and that style, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Wrestler would fit that style much better than the Kids.

I'm just going by what I already know. Sneaky Spirits are 2D, so it's likely that other a Rhythm Heaven representation takes a 2D form as well.

 

[AEMehr]

Mr. Game & Watch is still a 3D Model so the Chorus Kids would be 3D models too so yeah

everyone is 3D

But I think the Chorus Kids are likely to be flattened like G&W since that's a pretty large part of their franchise's charm, so yeah.

 

[Kenith]

One thing I should also mention is that the frontrunners for Rhythm Heaven characters, Marshall/Chorus and the Wrestler, in my opinion, could translate fine to 3d.

Particularly Marshall since he is spherical. If Pac-Man and Kirby could work, I imagine a 3d Marshall isn't a stretch.

And the Wrestler's design is complex enough to be visually appealing in 3d anyway.

 

[Louie G.]

3D designs could work. I was actually looking forward to how they would look before Sneaky Spirit happened.

But it just seems like Rhythm Heaven content will be flattened, based on that evidence (the Spirits).

So I expect wiggly-lined sketchy Chorus Kids. And quite frankly it's probably for the best.
Makes me smile just typing that description.

 

[Hong]

In any event, there is no objective evidence there is anything preventing the Chorus Men from working as a unified character. Like with Palutena's face or Toon Link's model, they'll do the best that they can. Chorus Men will, at the very least, look better than either of those two characters, if that helps.

Do you have to like them? No. Personally, I'm indifferent. If they are fun to play and contribute to the roster in a positive manner, I'll learn to love them. I just want a fun game. That said, love them or hate them, all that matters is that they are possible. There are multiple ways to make them work within the confines of the game engine. I would be so bold as to say that, if I can sit down and think about it for a few seconds and think of ways to do it, so can the developer. I am certain veterans of the industry like Namco, and especially Mr. Sakurai, people infinitely more experienced than I, could have better ideas for how to make it work.

 

[Kenith]

I would be indifferent to them, but frankly it's all anyone expects, so it constantly (indirectly) gets shoved down my throat, and I am quite tired of talking about it.

 

[Louie G.]

I would be indifferent to them, but frankly it's all anyone expects, so it constantly (indirectly) gets shoved down my throat, and I am quite tired of talking about it.

I can understand the annoyance from that. But stay open minded. I think the reason for that is because some people like to shove the Sal Leak to the side as if it has no track record and has no chance of being true.

Not specifically you, by the way.

 

[Kenith]

Not specifically you, by the way.

Not me at all. It's specifically stated I think it's valid, but outdated.

I'm not going to say it's 100% true or false until it's 100% true. I'm not going to let people tell me, "suck it up, kid, these things are going to happen".
None of us know that.

All of the things that have been predicted so far have been pretty obvious, even if some people in this community didn't anticipate it (frankly, we're collectively a little close-minded about what will and won't happen).

 

[Weeman]

Well they technically still have to make a 3d model for them in order to make the hitboxes, even Mr. Game and Watch had a 3D model.

 

[Phaazoid]

So, I don't actually know anything about the chorus men, but I can contribute this to the argument of representation.

I didn't want Mii's to be playable, because there was no way smash could properly represent the scope of customization that is central to their theme. I was against the idea of Pac-Man for awhile, because I hated his newest model. I wasn't very hype for Little Mac because in a series like smash, adding a boxer is a bit boring, imo.

Then Mii's ended up having the 36 total special moves, and weight/height changing gameplay, and a bunch of outfits.

Pac-Man not only didn't get his new scary model, but all of his attacks are throwbacks to classic him. Ghost smashes? Awesome.

And although Little Mac plays like a boxer, sure, Sakurai went all the way. He managed to implement the KO mechanic in Smash bros, somehow.

Every one of Villagers moves, grabs, aerials, specials, is straight from his game, in item or action form, from slingshot to shovel to bug net.

If there's one thing I'm convinced about this game, it's that Sakurai knows how to represent these characters.

Personally, I'm not super hyped for chorus men. It's honestly because I've only played rhythm heaven once, and didn't see them when I did. But I'm sure that Sakurai could find a way to present them in an exciting and awesome manner, because that's his job.

Idk if that was actually the argument or not but that felt relevant.

 

[Deleted member]

So, I don't actually know anything about the chorus men, but I can contribute this to the argument of representation.

I didn't want Mii's to be playable, because there was no way smash could properly represent the scope of customization that is central to their theme. I was against the idea of Pac-Man for awhile, because I hated his newest model. I wasn't very hype for Little Mac because in a series like smash, adding a boxer is a bit boring, imo.

Then Mii's ended up having the 36 total special moves, and weight/height changing gameplay, and a bunch of outfits.

Pac-Man not only didn't get his new scary model, but all of his attacks are throwbacks to classic him. Ghost smashes? Awesome.

And although Little Mac plays like a boxer, sure, Sakurai went all the way. He managed to implement the KO mechanic in Smash bros, somehow.

Every one of Villagers moves, grabs, aerials, specials, is straight from his game, in item or action form, from slingshot to shovel to bug net.

If there's one thing I'm convinced about this game, it's that Sakurai knows how to represent these characters.

Personally, I'm not super hyped for chorus men. It's honestly because I've only played rhythm heaven once, and didn't see them when I did. But I'm sure that Sakurai could find a way to present them in an exciting and awesome manner, because that's his job.

Idk if that was actually the argument or not but that felt relevant.

All of this. Actually, the only one of the characters you mentioned I didn't like the idea for was Mii. As for Pac-Man and Little Mac, yeah I wanted them, but I didn't know how their movesets could have possibly been interesting.(more so Little Mac but still) The only thing that turned me away from pac-man was the newest design, but to be honest, I feel like Sakurai probably thought the same thing, which is why he went with the obviously better design.

The only newcomer I have a hard time being excited for at all for is Chrom. You know, cause we would have another blue haired lord from Fire Emblem with a sword. But overall, I am very happy with our current roster, and am very excited for what's to come.

 

[Phaazoid]

All of this. Actually, the only one of the characters you mentioned I didn't like the idea for was Mii. As for Pac-Man and Little Mac, yeah I wanted them, but I didn't know how their movesets could have possibly been interesting.(more so Little Mac but still) The only thing that turned me away from pac-man was the newest design, but to be honest, I feel like Sakurai probably thought the same thing, which is why he went with the obviously better design.

The only newcomer I have a hard time being excited for at all for is Chrom. You know, cause we would have another blue haired lord from Fire Emblem with a sword. But overall, I am very happy with our current roster, and am very excited for what's to come.

I'll be worried if Chrom is a hidden character. They tend to be cloniest (in brawl - wolf, toon link, ect)

But if he's revealed beforehand, he'll probably be pretty unique.

 

[Morbi]

I knew you would pull that card eventually.

The difference is that Paper Mario is paper; he is literally a flat character in a 3d world.
He bends in 3d ways, he turns into 3d shapes.

The only reason Chorus Men would be 3d is because they are cartoons.

(And frankly, I am sick of your obsession with the word "bias". You use the word to make people look like fools and get you cheap likes).

Everyone is inherently biased.

I'm arguing that, if Chorus Kids are indeed in, then they will be in the same art style as the rest of their series' content. We're not going to have a 3D Chorus Kids and a 2D Sneaky Spirit. Since we already have precedent in the Sneaky Spirit being 2D, we should assume that any playable character from the series would also be 2D. If a character was added and was 3D, the rest of the content (including the Sneaky Spirit) would also be 3D. But the Sneaky Spirit isn't. See my point?

The notion is completely arbitrary. We should NOT assume anything based on limited precedent. I can see why you have come to that conclusion, it does not; however, mean that it is the most logical or correct conclusion.

 

[TitanTeaTime]

I'll be worried if Chrom is a hidden character. They tend to be cloniest (in brawl - wolf, toon link, ect)

But if he's revealed beforehand, he'll probably be pretty unique.

Just mentioning quickly, Wolf wasn't necessarily a clone at all. His specials were similar to Fox and Falco's, but different enough that it makes a difference (blaster has a slower animation and slower firing speed but has ko potential and melee damage, side-special gains a sweet-spot but is slanted upwards, etc) and all of his everything else is entirely different.
Toon link still stands as a clone though, same with Ganondorf and more accurately Falco. So yeah, I'll agree with everything you said except for Wolf.

 

[Phaazoid]

Just mentioning quickly, Wolf wasn't necessarily a clone at all. His specials were similar to Fox and Falco's, but different enough that it makes a difference (blaster has a slower animation and slower firing speed but has ko potential and melee damage, side-special gains a sweet-spot but is slanted upwards, etc) and all of his everything else is entirely different.
Toon link still stands as a clone though, same with Ganondorf and more accurately Falco. So yeah, I'll agree with everything you said except for Wolf.

While I know they aren't nearly as bad as the clones were in melee, I said cloniest. There was a lot of de-cloning in brawl, and the new guys were clones (lucas, wolf) weren't nearly as bad as the old set. (I still call wolf a clone in spirit because the specials are just modified versions, as well as the final smash. Not that it's a bad thing, but they could have been further distanced. )

That being said, assuming that stays the same (which we can't, lol) that would still put Chrom in a less than ideal situation.

But, since we honestly can't assume any of that, it's just speculation on my part based off of patterns, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Morbi]

While I know they aren't nearly as bad as the clones were in melee, I said cloniest. There was a lot of de-cloning in brawl, and the new guys were clones (lucas, wolf) weren't nearly as bad as the old set. (I still call wolf a clone in spirit because the specials are just modified versions, as well as the final smash. Not that it's a bad thing, but they could have been further distanced. )

That being said, assuming that stays the same (which we can't, lol) that would still put Chrom in a less than ideal situation.

But, since we honestly can't assume any of that, it's just speculation on my part based off of patterns, we'll just have to wait and see.

I am not sure that that changes anything. Wolf is still not a clone unless you mean "pseudo-clone" which by definition, is still not a clone. I suppose he would be one of the "cloniest" which does not really mean much... considering that he is not a clone.

 

[Phaazoid]

I am not sure that that changes anything. Wolf is still not a clone unless you mean "pseudo-clone" which by definition, is still not a clone. I suppose he would be one of the "cloniest" which does not really mean much... considering that he is not a clone.

Yeah, I realize I'm pulling threads at this point.

What I meant to get across was that, while overall I was happy with how brawl handled clones, there were still pseudo clones.

And even as a pseudo clone, Chrom could be a little boring.

But between move customization, us not actually knowing anything at this point, I'm really not worried.

 

[Kenith]

And even as a pseudo clone, Chrom could be a little boring.

Lol. Chrom would boring even if wasn't a clone at all.

 

[Morbi]

Lol. Chrom would boring even if wasn't a clone at all.

I do not believe that to be the case. Chrom would not be boring even if he was more of a clone than Roy.

 

[Phaazoid]

I do not believe that to be the case. Chrom would not be boring even if he was more of a clone than Roy.

Now, this, I do disagree with. If he were more of a clone than Roy, I honestly wouldn't see why he wasn't just an alternate costume for Marth.

Lol. Chrom would boring even if wasn't a clone at all.

But I also disagree with this, I'm sure Sakurai has a trick or two up his sleeve to make Chrom interesting, given the proper development time.

 

[Kenith]

But I also disagree with this, I'm sure Sakurai has a trick or two up his sleeve to make Chrom interesting, given the proper development time.

Jeez, I was making a joke.

Frankly, I don't like the philosophy that Sakurai will know how to make a character interesting.
It just seems like a way for someone to say, "I have no idea how to make this character stand out, let someone out do it."

 

[Morbi]

Now, this, I do disagree with. If he were more of a clone than Roy, I honestly wouldn't see why he wasn't just an alternate costume for Marth.


But I also disagree with this, I'm sure Sakurai has a trick or two up his sleeve to make Chrom interesting, given the proper development time.

I am not sure why he would not just be an alternate costume either; however, I do not find Marth to be a boring character, so it would be impossible for me to find Chrom boring in that event.

 

[Kenith]

Chrom and Marth are different characters, I can't see them being alts.

That would be like Zero having a Mega Man cos-Dammit, I've made that joke before!

 

[Morbi]

Chrom and Marth are different characters, I can't see them being alts.

That would be like Zero having a Mega Man cos-Dammit, I've made that joke before!

I did not realize that you were the one made that joke, I thought it was Capcom.

Jeez, I was making a joke.

Frankly, I don't like the philosophy that Sakurai will know how to make a character interesting.
It just seems like a way for someone to say, "I have no idea how to make this character stand out, let someone out do it."

I agree. However, I do not believe that a character needs something to stand out in order to be a good character. I would honestly be content with Chrom... just using his sword... the way it was meant to be used.