Character Discussion Thread

[Kenith]

that's not the full roster if you include ultimate.


how dare you leave out Wright.

That just serves to prove his point further.

 

[Spinosaurus]

that's not the full roster if you include ultimate.


how dare you leave out Wright.

The whole roster for ultimate was accidentally leaked by Capcom themselves right after the game was announced so nobody made assumptions like they did for vanilla MvC3.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

But not trusting the demo as a source is a no-brainer. The 3DS one took up the whole screen, but didn't have many characters already confirmed.

 

[Starcutter]

That just serves to prove his point further.

Don't care. he left out my main.

even though I barely have played that game hes still may main.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I don't know, I don't think it would be cluttered enough for that. Besides, in Smash all the characters select at the same time, so it would throw people off.
However, due to the small screen size and personal nature of the 3DS version, I could easily see that being the case on that version.



That we shouldn't assume the final roster size based on a demo.
You know, sort of what we've been discussing for a while.

All right, let's dismiss the CSS. I don't even need it anymore for 47 + R to work, it's just a happy coincidence at this point. I'll set aside the Mario Theory for now too, and even disregard cells. Let's suppose the following is reasonable, though; Ivy/Squirtle are gone, I would like to think we can agree on that. Snake is also probably gone, given that Kojima stated well after Sakurai had finalized the roster that he had not been contacted for Snake's use yet. Gematsu, which so far as been proved utterly and totally correct, states that Lucas is likely to go. So yes, there are four cuts. Since Gematsu had a third release that did not mention any newcomers, despite the prior two having done so(and the second part coming out after RosaLuma's reveal so there was no point to leak her), suggests that the newcomers remaining to be confirmed on the leak are it. Can we agree on this? If so, then let's move on to the next part of my reasoning.

Those four cuts from Brawl's roster make the remaining 11 fit to the 3 unrevealed leak characters as well as the 33 currently known cast. This then places the roster at 47. Since there are no newcomers being leaked anymore by Gematsu, and Gematsu has really been the only leak worth following, we can probably assume(until proven otherwise) that there are no further newcomers to be revealed. Sakurai doesn't control the leaks, so he can't design around it. RosaLuma beat Gematsu to the punch, but the rest are nakedly revealed now. This line of thought only remains intact until someone shows up that would break it. That means if any of the Venerated Four(or anyone outside of the Gematsu Three) show up, then Gematsu is incomplete information. This has yet to happen, and there is no reason to think it will happen.

This also lines up with Sakurai's philosophy as far as roster numbers. He doesn't like overlarge rosters and believes that Smash is rapidly reaching its maximum capacity. To be honest, 47 characters in a fighting game is a huge roster, so I don't blame him one bit for thinking this. The happy coincidence that 48 cells works perfectly on both systems also suggests a degree of legitimacy to the thought.

There's only three X-factors in play here, and they all have to do with Gematsu. RosaLuma's lack of reveal, the ambiguity on whether Gematsu covers Brawl and Melee veterans(the Mewtwo factor), and the lack of any acknowledgement of any actual character being cut aside from Lucas. The RosaLuma 'miss' as people like to term it could be a legitimate lack of information or it could just have been Ninty beating Gematsu to the punch as far as revealing her, there's no way to tell easily. The leak not mentioning Rosalina in the second part may have been because, since she was already revealed, there was no need to show that the leak had her. As far as Melee characters and the cuts go, they may again lack information, there may not be cuts(which would be confusing to say the least), or the leaker may have determined that, at the time of the leak, the evidence was clear enough that there was no need to illustrate that those characters were being cut(Ivy/Squirt's removal all but outright stated in the Charizard reveal and transformations being removed, and Snake's removal apparent from Kojima's statement). Since nothing had surfaced to this point that suggested Lucas was getting the axe, the leaker determined it would be prudent to inform Sal of that development. Since the leaker also did not reveal Mewtwo's fate, it could be that the status quo is being maintained(his absence) or the leaker may not have had access to that information. Given their apparent knowledge of the Ness/Lucas debate, this stance is questionable. If that veterancy was known to have been threatened, how could a returning veteran from Melee go overlooked?

Because of the trickling nature of the leak and its ambiguity, it's difficult to pin down exactly what the final picture will be, however there is, I believe, very strong evidence for 47 + Random not just from the leak but from other circumstances, such as the layout of the screen, the number of likely cuts, and the lack of any information or even hinting on non-Gematsu newcomers. Thus my crusade for it. It's all lining up too well not to be acknowledged, and there just needs to be a 'R.O.B. moment' like with the 35-character roster where everyone realizes it. I'm not exactly sure what that will be unless Gematsu gets much more specific or other airtight evidence surfaces one way or the other.

(It may be somewhatmostly c/p'ed from the 51-character thread.)

 

[Tr1pleDee]

I really dislike any discussion relating to CSS size. Its just boring and no one can really "predict" the amount of "slots" using dimmensions or sizes or any of that jazz. It's Sakurai. No matter how many characters or dlc content this man puts in he will find a way to make it work. Melee's CSS wasn't even rectangle.

So can we discuss the characters themselves and not the size or amount of their little pictures on a screen?

Edit: Here, I'll create another discussion topic. Since there is a slight chance of a veteran being revealed tonight, I'll ask this question.

What nerfs/buffs/changes would you like to see made to the remaining 'starting' veterans? This includes Wario, Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, and Lucas (If he stays in).

 

[Espio264]

All right, let's dismiss the CSS. I don't even need it anymore for 47 + R to work, it's just a happy coincidence at this point. I'll set aside the Mario Theory for now too, and even disregard cells. Let's suppose the following is reasonable, though; Ivy/Squirtle are gone, I would like to think we can agree on that. Snake is also probably gone, given that Kojima stated well after Sakurai had finalized the roster that he had not been contacted for Snake's use yet. Gematsu, which so far as been proved utterly and totally correct, states that Lucas is likely to go. So yes, there are four cuts. Since Gematsu had a third release that did not mention any newcomers, despite the prior two having done so(and the second part coming out after RosaLuma's reveal so there was no point to leak her), suggests that the newcomers remaining to be confirmed on the leak are it. Can we agree on this? If so, then let's move on to the next part of my reasoning.

Those four cuts from Brawl's roster make the remaining 11 fit to the 3 unrevealed leak characters as well as the 33 currently known cast. This then places the roster at 47. Since there are no newcomers being leaked anymore by Gematsu, and Gematsu has really been the only leak worth following, we can probably assume(until proven otherwise) that there are no further newcomers to be revealed. Sakurai doesn't control the leaks, so he can't design around it. RosaLuma beat Gematsu to the punch, but the rest are nakedly revealed now. This line of thought only remains intact until someone shows up that would break it. That means if any of the Venerated Four(or anyone outside of the Gematsu Three) show up, then Gematsu is incomplete information. This has yet to happen, and there is no reason to think it will happen.

This also lines up with Sakurai's philosophy as far as roster numbers. He doesn't like overlarge rosters and believes that Smash is rapidly reaching its maximum capacity. To be honest, 47 characters in a fighting game is a huge roster, so I don't blame him one bit for thinking this. The happy coincidence that 48 cells works perfectly on both systems also suggests a degree of legitimacy to the thought.

There's only three X-factors in play here, and they all have to do with Gematsu. RosaLuma's lack of reveal, the ambiguity on whether Gematsu covers Brawl and Melee veterans(the Mewtwo factor), and the lack of any acknowledgement of any actual character being cut aside from Lucas. The RosaLuma 'miss' as people like to term it could be a legitimate lack of information or it could just have been Ninty beating Gematsu to the punch as far as revealing her, there's no way to tell easily. The leak not mentioning Rosalina in the second part may have been because, since she was already revealed, there was no need to show that the leak had her. As far as Melee characters and the cuts go, they may again lack information, there may not be cuts(which would be confusing to say the least), or the leaker may have determined that, at the time of the leak, the evidence was clear enough that there was no need to illustrate that those characters were being cut(Ivy/Squirt's removal all but outright stated in the Charizard reveal and transformations being removed, and Snake's removal apparent from Kojima's statement). Since nothing had surfaced to this point that suggested Lucas was getting the axe, the leaker determined it would be prudent to inform Sal of that development. Since the leaker also did not reveal Mewtwo's fate, it could be that the status quo is being maintained(his absence) or the leaker may not have had access to that information. Given their apparent knowledge of the Ness/Lucas debate, this stance is questionable. If that veterancy was known to have been threatened, how could a returning veteran from Melee go overlooked?

Because of the trickling nature of the leak and its ambiguity, it's difficult to pin down exactly what the final picture will be, however there is, I believe, very strong evidence for 47 + Random not just from the leak but from other circumstances, such as the layout of the screen, the number of likely cuts, and the lack of any information or even hinting on non-Gematsu newcomers. Thus my crusade for it. It's all lining up too well not to be acknowledged, and there just needs to be a 'R.O.B. moment' like with the 35-character roster where everyone realizes it. I'm not exactly sure what that will be unless Gematsu gets much more specific or other airtight evidence surfaces one way or the other.

(It may be somewhatmostly c/p'ed from the 51-character thread.)

Not trying to contest you on anything, or start an argument, but if Gematsu/Sal is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, and they've stated that there will be DLC in the form of characters, doesn't that make the whole CSS size/shape/perfect alignment irrelevant?

Also, since NostraRomano has dropped info on us on three separate and mostly random occasions, who's to say there's not another Salnouncement waiting that'll throw off the patterns people have drawn based from everything he's stated thus far?

 

[Kenith]

@ Tr1pleDee Also, not a fan of Marshal or the Chorus Men, but that avatar's pretty funny.

---------------

Anyway, I think we should expect about twice as many newcomers as we have now.
Why?

In Brawl, we got 18 newcomers. Only three of them borrowed any moves from other characters, and existing clones got major changes to differentiate them from their parent characters. Even more were planned. Additionally, this game faced countless delays and had an expansive Story Mode that cost a lot of the game's budget.

Super Smash Bros 4 is just pure game, there's not really a huge, expansive quest (if there was, we would've known by now) and it's development is being assisted by another huge company.

I'm pretty sure we have enough room for all of the Gematsu leaked characters, the forbidden seven of Brawl, and then some.
At the very least, Mewtwo is a lock.

 

[epicgordan]

I am just going to leak--ur, predict--the following details:

1. All Veterans return except for Lucas, Snake, Ivysaur and Squirtle.
2. Shulk, Chrom, and Chorus Kids will all be playable.
3. Marshall will be the default fighter when selecting the Chorus Kids, though you can play any of the others. Their stats are different, but they share the same Final Smash.
4. While not transformations, the Chorus Kids have a seamless tag-team gameplay-style in which you can switch into the other kids on standbye in the background. While in the background, they will only move 30 FPS, and they will not take the place of any of the Chorus Kids that died.
5. Mii Fighters will share the same space as the Random button while customizations are turned on, and can be toggled back and forth with these features (this is to prevent the Mii Fighters from being selectable via Random).
6. In total, there will be 48 playable characters in the main game, with Ridley being the last character to unlock.
7. Dr. Mario and Young Link are being considered for alternate skins for Mario and Toon Link.
8. So far, the only characters reserved for the future development of character DLC are the cut veterans from past Smash Brothers games. The top priority DLC characters are Mewtwo, Snake, Lucas, and Roy, though Ivysaur, Squirtle, and Pichu are also being considered).
9. Whether or not there will be any DLC newcomers remains to be seen, though it appears that only those that were considered but ultimately scrapped may have a shot down the road. As far as I can tell though, Sakurai only went to work on the characters that were ultimately of low priority.
10.The planned rosters size was 56--including the three Mii Fighters and each of the Chorus Kids--with 52 slots in total. This is due to space limitations on the 3DS, which will indeed be receiving only minimum DLC.
11.The Wii U version will be presented in a 4x12 scale, while the 3DS will be 6x4 and scroll down. However, with the DLC added, the Wii U version will adopt a 4x13 lineup instead.
12.Every character will have at least one alternate skin/sets, though none of them be a different character. The only exceptions are the Ice Climbers (as you can switch control to Nana before each battle), the Chorus Kids (same reason as the Ice Climbers), and the Mii Fighters (as they are 100% customizable in appearance). Not all alternate skins and skin sets will be available, however, such as Yarn Yoshi or Boom Sonic.
13.Greninja's alternate skin sets will be a ninja costume of matching colors.
14.Most every alternate skin set will require unlocking them similar to how characters are to be unlocked. The bulk of the surprise that is normally ruined with post-launch character reveals will be given to these costumes.
15.There will be 28 playable characters to start, with 20 unlockable characters. In total, there are eight version-exclusive starters in each version.
16.The remaining character reveals before launch are Ice Climbers, Falco, Meta Knight, and Chrom, all in order to demonstrate the concept of version-exclusive starters, as well as to show off what's different with the returning veterans.
17.Chrom's reveal trailer will involve Marth and Ike fighting off an army of R.O.B. robots before Chrom chimes in as an homage to Subspace Emissary. R.O.B. will not be officially confirmed until launch, but will instead be leaked akin to Mr. Game & Watch.
18.Jigglypuff is also expected to be leaked or teased shortly before launch. The reason for the leaking of joke characters is in order to build up to the "unexpected reveal" of the Chorus Kids.
19.Shulk is expected to be the first newcomer to be confirmed after launch, and is likely how Jigglypuff will fit in.
20.The super secret characters this time will be: Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Wolf, and Ridley.

 

[Tr1pleDee]

@ Tr1pleDee Also, not a fan of Marshal or the Chorus Men, but that avatar's pretty funny.

---------------

Anyway, I think we should expect about twice as many newcomers as we have now.
Why?

In Brawl, we got 18 newcomers. Only three of them borrowed any moves from other characters, and existing clones got major changes to differentiate them from their parent characters. Even more were planned. Additionally, this game faced countless delays and had an expansive Story Mode that cost a lot of the game's budget.

Super Smash Bros 4 is just pure game, there's not really a huge, expansive quest (if there was, we would've known by now) and it's development is being assisted by another huge company.

I'm pretty sure we have enough room for all of the Gematsu leaked characters, the forbidden seven of Brawl, and then some.
At the very least, Mewtwo is a lock.

Thanks, I'm a huge RH fan and a Kirby main, so I just had to draw that.

But I wouldn't set my expectations that high for newcomers. Sure, Bamco is no stranger to large rosters, but it seems Sakurai is aiming for quality over quantity this time around.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

What nerfs/buffs/changes would you like to see made to the remaining 'starting' veterans? This includes Wario, Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, and Lucas (If he stays in).

Wario: I'm actually pretty cool with him as is. But I'd like it if he had an actual run. That shifty dance thing was weird.

ICs: I think it'd be cool if they had a team throw when both climbers were present to remove infinite chain grabs. Plus it'd be super stylish.

Lucas: Differentiate his or Ness's specials. Surely there's enough PSI in the Mother series that this could happen? I ain't holding my breath though.

Meta Knight: Just don't let him be as bad as Brawl.

 

[Weeman]

I'm kinda hoping for Ganondorf.

 

[Kenith]

Thanks, I'm a huge RH fan and a Kirby main, so I just had to draw that.

I wonder if there's a Kirby hats Thread...I want to make a Wrestler Kirby!

But I wouldn't set my expectations that high for newcomers. Sure, Bamco is no stranger to large rosters, but it seems Sakurai is aiming for quality over quantity this time around.

Why not?

Are you implying that Brawl's roster was not quality?
To clarify, I don't expect 20 newcomers. But logically, it isn't really a stretch.

 

[Tr1pleDee]

I'm kinda hoping for Ganondorf.

While hes traditionally unlockable, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed up his moveset and revealed him early in order to explain it.

 

[Weeman]

While hes traditionally unlockable, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed up his moveset and revealed him early in order to explain it.

Yeah that is the reason why i actually want to see him, but i guess if not then Wario would be ideal for me, not that a veteran tomorrow is guaranteed at all though.

 

[Tr1pleDee]

I wonder if there's a Kirby hats Thread...I want to make a Wrestler Kirby!


Why not?

Are you implying that Brawl's roster was not quality?
To clarify, I don't expect 20 newcomers. But logically, it isn't really a stretch.

It could have been better. The biggest issue was balance. But no, I'm not saying it was bad.
Also, I took your first post the wrong way. You said double of what we already have, which is 9, but whenever my brain reads the word "newcomers" it automatically thinks of 12 due to the GL. So I thought 24 and not 18, derp. I could see it happening, still not too likely though.

Edit: Here, its more of a sloppy doodle, but heres Kirby in a wrestlers mask :b

Spoiler

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Not trying to contest you on anything, or start an argument, but if Gematsu/Sal is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, and they've stated that there will be DLC in the form of characters, doesn't that make the whole CSS size/shape/perfect alignment irrelevant?

Also, since NostraRomano has dropped info on us on three separate and mostly random occasions, who's to say there's not another Salnouncement waiting that'll throw off the patterns people have drawn based from everything he's stated thus far?

Not if the DLC isn't set into the main roster. Besides, if they do wind up going on the main roster, exactly how small are those icons going to get? Unless you suggest the Wii U CSS should scroll. If you do, then, uh, well then.

 

[False Sense]

Not if the DLC isn't set into the main roster. Besides, if they do wind up going on the main roster, exactly how small are those icons going to get? Unless you suggest the Wii U CSS should scroll. If you do, then, uh, well then.

Well basically, having more characters added to the roster through DLC will present slight problems for the selection screen no matter what they decide to do with it, and we have no way of knowing what they will end up doing with it.

 

[Autumn ♫]

How do we even know if it'll be DLC characters? I don't believe Sal said it being anything character-wise, did he?

 

[Deleted member]

That we shouldn't assume the final roster size based on a demo.
You know, sort of what we've been discussing for a while.

You can go further than that; we shouldn't assume the final roster size based on what can "fit" PERIOD. When it comes to Smash, at least.
Brawl can actually fit 50 slots on the CSS, but it has only 36.

 

[Scamper52596]

Do you guys think if we get playable character DLC that we will be able to use those characters online, or do you believe that they will only be limited to local play, similar to the Mii Fighters, due to the balancing possibly not being as polished as the main roster? I had this thought, and I was just curious to see what you guys think.

 

[Espio264]

Not if the DLC isn't set into the main roster. Besides, if they do wind up going on the main roster, exactly how small are those icons going to get? Unless you suggest the Wii U CSS should scroll. If you do, then, uh, well then.

I'm not suggesting anything other than some of your points contradict each other.

I believe, very strong evidence for 47 + Random not just from the leak but from other circumstances, such as the layout of the screen, the number of likely cuts, and the lack of any information or even hinting on non-Gematsu newcomers. Thus my crusade for it. It's all lining up too well not to be acknowledged/QUOTE]

If Sal/Gematsu is to be believed, then everything stated has to be believed, including DLC additional characters. These would thus throw off the "layout of the screen". I'm not suggesting that anything scrolls, but they would have to be accommodated for in one way or another, making your 47 + R layout irrelevant.

Hell, for all we know it could be similar to INJUSTICE, where the CSS had perfect rows on either side and the 6 DLC characters were added to the sides in a not exactly perfect, but fitting manner. But my point to all of this is that the layout, size, shape, perfect divisibility of the CSS has no bearing on how many/who the final roster is comprised of. Especially if the developers know that later there's gonna be additional characters on there.

I also think, and this isn't directed at you, but everybody, that:

- What Sal/Gematsu has said,
- What conclusions people draw from them, and
- What Sakurai and the team have actually done,

are by no means the same things. No one can say with absolute certainty, apart from the man himself, Sakurai, that they are correct about everything.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

You can go further than that; we shouldn't assume the final roster size based on what can "fit" PERIOD. When it comes to Smash, at least.
Brawl can actually fit 50 slots on the CSS, but it has only 36.

Holy Hell!
That's the best roster I've ever seen.

 

[Kenith]

You can go further than that; we shouldn't assume the final roster size based on what can "fit" PERIOD. When it comes to Smash, at least.
Brawl can actually fit 50 slots on the CSS, but it has only 36.

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that you could fit 50 of the 36 slots in Bral on the screen, or, judging by the image, are you saying that the CSS can be hacked to display 50 slots (assuming the game is programmed to fit that many icons on screen)?

 

[ppbto]

Again, CSS' discussion. You really love discussion about this, right?
First of all, it's pretty unreliable trying to predict the CSS based on the demo. The character's slots could likely be resized when the final roster is obtained just like it happened in brawl.

I'm still skeptic about the Gematsu's leak, but assuming that he is right. He never mentioned that his newcomers were the only ones, there's the possibility that has no clue about the hidden characters in the game.

The Mario's character slot theory is implausible, it can only be sustained if one choose to ignore the fact that Brawl has more Pokemon's characters (6) than Mario's Characters (4). Besides you're making a pattern with the minimum amount of data to suspect a pattern. A pattern of 3 events is unreliable to speculation.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that you could fit 50 of the 36 slots in Bral on the screen, or, judging by the image, are you saying that the CSS can be hacked to display 50 slots (assuming the game is programmed to fit that many icons on screen)?

The latter.

Brawl's CSS is capable of having 50 slots as a maximum when hacks are applied.

 

[Espio264]

Here's a thought I have, but not a certainty I've concluded:

If Sal is correct, his information has said nothing about further veterans, or the status of which characters are unlockable.
We've already heard from Bihldorf himself that the roster is "massive", so who's to say that Chrom, Shulk and the Kids aren't starters?

Brawl had 21 starters, and we're definitely going to end up with a roster with at least 12 more characters. Likely starters would be...

1. Mario 2. DK 3. Link 4. Samus
5. Yoshi 6. Kirby 7. Fox 8. Pikachu
9. Bowser. 10. Peach 11. Zelda 12. Sheik
13. Marth 14. Ice Climbers 15. Pit 16. Meta-Knight
17. Wario 18. Dedede 19. Charizard 20. Ike
21. Diddy 22. Olimar 23. ZS Samus 24. Villager
25. WFT 26. Rosalina 27. Little Mac 28. Greninja
29. Palutena 30. Chrom 31. Shulk 32. Chorus Kids
33. Miis

Unlockables would then be:

Luigi, Ness, Captain Falcon, Jiggs, Falco, Ganondorf, Game and Watch, Lucario, Toon Link, Wolf, R.O.B., Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man (14 unlockables, same as Brawl) But why not more?

Would it be so farfetched to say that we've got Mewtwo, Ridley, Isaac and K. Rool still waiting (or insert your favorite 4 favorite unlockables) that Sal doesn't know about yet?

 

[Kenith]

The latter.

Brawl's CSS is capable of having 50 slots as a maximum when hacks are applied.

Ah, okay, that's was I thought you meant.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.
I wonder if there is anything similar for Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

So it seems that Pac-Man could've been included in Brawl but Sakurai at the time thought it was "a little too farfetched.", see for yourself: http://gamingeverything.com/miyamot...kurai-thought-it-was-a-little-too-farfetched/

During development of Smash Bros. Brawl, Mr. Shigeru Miyamoto of Nintendo approached me and asked, ‘Can’t we have Pac-Man as a guest character?’ At the time, imagining the image of Pac-Man and his incomplete pizza shape, I thought to myself, ‘Hmmm… That’s a little too farfetched

Other details are included

How to give the character their own individuality as a fighter and how they’ll move. Should the game system maintain a consistent form or not. What other fighters are there and how will the new character differ in strategy? Does the new idea fit with the original game? Most importantly, is it entertaining?

You never know what’s going to happen in this world. I’ll just keep my mouth shut. That’s a good idea

 

[Kalimdori]

All right, let's dismiss the CSS. I don't even need it anymore for 47 + R to work, it's just a happy coincidence at this point. I'll set aside the Mario Theory for now too, and even disregard cells. Let's suppose the following is reasonable, though; Ivy/Squirtle are gone, I would like to think we can agree on that. Snake is also probably gone, given that Kojima stated well after Sakurai had finalized the roster that he had not been contacted for Snake's use yet. Gematsu, which so far as been proved utterly and totally correct, states that Lucas is likely to go. So yes, there are four cuts. Since Gematsu had a third release that did not mention any newcomers, despite the prior two having done so(and the second part coming out after RosaLuma's reveal so there was no point to leak her), suggests that the newcomers remaining to be confirmed on the leak are it. Can we agree on this? If so, then let's move on to the next part of my reasoning.

Those four cuts from Brawl's roster make the remaining 11 fit to the 3 unrevealed leak characters as well as the 33 currently known cast. This then places the roster at 47. Since there are no newcomers being leaked anymore by Gematsu, and Gematsu has really been the only leak worth following, we can probably assume(until proven otherwise) that there are no further newcomers to be revealed. Sakurai doesn't control the leaks, so he can't design around it. RosaLuma beat Gematsu to the punch, but the rest are nakedly revealed now. This line of thought only remains intact until someone shows up that would break it. That means if any of the Venerated Four(or anyone outside of the Gematsu Three) show up, then Gematsu is incomplete information. This has yet to happen, and there is no reason to think it will happen.

This also lines up with Sakurai's philosophy as far as roster numbers. He doesn't like overlarge rosters and believes that Smash is rapidly reaching its maximum capacity. To be honest, 47 characters in a fighting game is a huge roster, so I don't blame him one bit for thinking this. The happy coincidence that 48 cells works perfectly on both systems also suggests a degree of legitimacy to the thought.

There's only three X-factors in play here, and they all have to do with Gematsu. RosaLuma's lack of reveal, the ambiguity on whether Gematsu covers Brawl and Melee veterans(the Mewtwo factor), and the lack of any acknowledgement of any actual character being cut aside from Lucas. The RosaLuma 'miss' as people like to term it could be a legitimate lack of information or it could just have been Ninty beating Gematsu to the punch as far as revealing her, there's no way to tell easily. The leak not mentioning Rosalina in the second part may have been because, since she was already revealed, there was no need to show that the leak had her. As far as Melee characters and the cuts go, they may again lack information, there may not be cuts(which would be confusing to say the least), or the leaker may have determined that, at the time of the leak, the evidence was clear enough that there was no need to illustrate that those characters were being cut(Ivy/Squirt's removal all but outright stated in the Charizard reveal and transformations being removed, and Snake's removal apparent from Kojima's statement). Since nothing had surfaced to this point that suggested Lucas was getting the axe, the leaker determined it would be prudent to inform Sal of that development. Since the leaker also did not reveal Mewtwo's fate, it could be that the status quo is being maintained(his absence) or the leaker may not have had access to that information. Given their apparent knowledge of the Ness/Lucas debate, this stance is questionable. If that veterancy was known to have been threatened, how could a returning veteran from Melee go overlooked?

Because of the trickling nature of the leak and its ambiguity, it's difficult to pin down exactly what the final picture will be, however there is, I believe, very strong evidence for 47 + Random not just from the leak but from other circumstances, such as the layout of the screen, the number of likely cuts, and the lack of any information or even hinting on non-Gematsu newcomers. Thus my crusade for it. It's all lining up too well not to be acknowledged, and there just needs to be a 'R.O.B. moment' like with the 35-character roster where everyone realizes it. I'm not exactly sure what that will be unless Gematsu gets much more specific or other airtight evidence surfaces one way or the other.

(It may be somewhatmostly c/p'ed from the 51-character thread.)

The fact that the leaker stated "X and Y Pokemon" instead of Greninja and said that they were debating cutting Ness/Lucas right before this E3 shows that A) He got this information very early, and B) He doesn't have all of it. Sakurai confirmed in the Smash Roundtable that A) The roster was decided right at the beginning of development, and B) That Greninja was placed in purely on concept art. There is absolutely no way that they are debating cutting Lucas or Ness at this moment, and there is no way he wouldn't have known Greninja, unless he got that information at that time. That is most likely when he got his information, right at the beginning of development. The only things we have gotten that could be recent info are A) the Mii Fighters correct name, and possibly B) Character DLC. That's it. There is so much more he could be leaking to us if he had it, even things not related to characters! But he isn't, which means either A) He's intentionally hiding something, or B) He just doesn't know.

So, no. There is nothing that suggests that what Gematus is giving us is all we're getting. Rosalina and Luma being announced was unknown to the leaker, he has very spotty information on other issues, this guy just doesn't have all the info.

The CSS demo screen also means nothing, as the icons for the Brawl demo were much bigger then the ones that were in the final game:
Demo Roster:

Spoiler

Starting Roster:

Spoiler

There is an obvious discrepancy there, the CSS argument holds absolutely no water, neither to the size nor the organization of the characters in the WiiU or 3DS roster.

It could be that what we saw was the final design, but hate that people are taking it as a sure sign of what the roster size will be. It isn't.

 

[False Sense]

The fact that the leaker stated "X and Y Pokemon" instead of Greninja and said that they were debating cutting Ness/Lucas right before this E3 shows that A) He got this information very early, and B) He doesn't have all of it. Sakurai confirmed in the Smash Roundtable that A) The roster was decided right at the beginning of development, and B) That Greninja was placed in purely on concept art. There is absolutely no way that they are debating cutting Lucas or Ness at this moment, and there is no way he wouldn't have known Greninja, unless he got that information at that time. That is most likely when he got his information, right at the beginning of development. The only things we have gotten that could be recent info are A) the Mii Fighters correct name, and possibly B) Character DLC. That's it. There is so much more he could be leaking to us if he had it, even things not related to characters! But he isn't, which means either A) He's intentionally hiding something, or B) He just doesn't know.

So, no. There is nothing that suggests that what Gematus is giving us is all we're getting. Rosalina and Luma being announced was unknown to the leaker, he has very spotty information on other issues, this guy just doesn't have all the info.

The CSS demo screen also means nothing, as the icons for the Brawl demo were much bigger then the ones that were in the final game:
Demo Roster:

Spoiler

Starting Roster:

Spoiler

There is an obvious discrepancy there, the CSS argument holds absolutely no water, neither to the size nor the organization of the characters in the WiiU or 3DS roster.

It could be that what we saw was the final design, but hate that people are taking it as a sure sign of what the roster size will be. It isn't.

Sounds like we came to the same conclusion.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

The fact that the leaker stated "X and Y Pokemon" instead of Greninja and said that they were debating cutting Ness/Lucas right before this E3 shows that A) He got this information very early, and B) He doesn't have all of it. Sakurai confirmed in the Smash Roundtable that A) The roster was decided right at the beginning of development, and B) That Greninja was placed in purely on concept art. There is absolutely no way that they are debating cutting Lucas or Ness at this moment, and there is no way he wouldn't have known Greninja, unless he got that information at that time. That is most likely when he got his information, right at the beginning of development. The only things we have gotten that could be recent info are A) the Mii Fighters correct name, and possibly B) Character DLC. That's it. There is so much more he could be leaking to us if he had it, even things not related to characters! But he isn't, which means either A) He's intentionally hiding something, or B) He just doesn't know.

So, no. There is nothing that suggests that what Gematus is giving us is all we're getting. Rosalina and Luma being announced was unknown to the leaker, he has very spotty information on other issues, this guy just doesn't have all the info.

Okay, let's think about this for a second. Gematsu can be dated as compiled very early in development, about the same time when the roster was said to be finalized by Sakurai himself. Which means that the information is not outdated. It's right on time, because everything else happened when it did. I can't say for certain why the leaker chose to split up the information into multiple parts, but the fact of the matter is this; there is absolutely nothing that makes Gematsu obsolete, at least not until we learn what happens as far as either:

A) DLC
B) Ness vs Lucas

Just because the info is old enough to be unclear as to Greninja specifically doesn't take that victory away from the leak. Or will Chrom not be on the roster because it was written on too old of paper? Come on, now.

The CSS demo screen also means nothing, as the icons for the Brawl demo were much bigger then the ones that were in the final game:
Demo Roster:

Spoiler

Starting Roster:

Spoiler

There is an obvious discrepancy there, the CSS argument holds absolutely no water, neither to the size nor the organization of the characters in the WiiU or 3DS roster.

It could be that what we saw was the final design, but hate that people are taking it as a sure sign of what the roster size will be. It isn't.

Hooboy, this argument. AGAIN.

The 3DS's roster is in a different order from the Wii U roster. Why did this happen? It can't just be the Wii U CSS copy-pasted to the 3DS screen, because otherwise there would be no need to reorganize the order. Both of them had 20 selectable fighters. Both of them have different placements for Greninja, Pikachu, Pit, Villager, Mac, Fox... Their roster orders are totally different from one another. The only reason to reorganize the roster order is because you are changing that order to suit a different purpose. That purpose is likely the difference in roster placement. The Wii U will likely have a 12x4 CSS. The 3DS, meanwhile, will likely have a 8x6 CSS. If the 3DS scrolled, it could keep 12x4 and not have to change the roster order. Developer time is precious and limited, Sakurai said so himself in the Digital Event, so why spend idle time making more work for themselves unless they had to?

I am not saying the Wii U CSS cannot reshape itself. I am saying that the 3DS's altered order means a lot more than people seem willing to admit.

 

[Kalimdori]

Okay, let's think about this for a second. Gematsu can be dated as compiled very early in development, about the same time when the roster was said to be finalized by Sakurai himself. Which means that the information is not outdated. It's right on time, because everything else happened when it did. I can't say for certain why the leaker chose to split up the information into multiple parts, but the fact of the matter is this; there is absolutely nothing that makes Gematsu obsolete, at least not until we learn what happens as far as either:

A) DLC
B) Ness vs Lucas

Just because the info is old enough to be unclear as to Greninja specifically doesn't take that victory away from the leak. Or will Chrom not be on the roster because it was written on too old of paper? Come on, now.



Hooboy, this argument. AGAIN.

The 3DS's roster is in a different order from the Wii U roster. Why did this happen? It can't just be the Wii U CSS copy-pasted to the 3DS screen, because otherwise there would be no need to reorganize the order. Both of them had 20 selectable fighters. Both of them have different placements for Greninja, Pikachu, Pit, Villager, Mac, Fox... Their roster orders are totally different from one another. The only reason to reorganize the roster order is because you are changing that order to suit a different purpose. That purpose is likely the difference in roster placement. The Wii U will likely have a 12x4 CSS. The 3DS, meanwhile, will likely have a 8x6 CSS. If the 3DS scrolled, it could keep 12x4 and not have to change the roster order. Developer time is precious and limited, Sakurai said so himself in the Digital Event, so why spend idle time making more work for themselves unless they had to?

I am not saying the Wii U CSS cannot reshape itself. I am saying that the 3DS's altered order means a lot more than people seem willing to admit.

I am not saying the Gematsu leak is false, why are you implying that? I am saying there is no reason to believe that is all we are getting. I am saying it is vague, old (Yes, it is old. This is not information we have now, this is information we had then. They were still DEBATING cutting Lucas or Ness, I.E., the roster was NOT finalized), and missing information, and the combination of those 3 things means no conclusions can be made as to if it is definite or not. That is it.

To the roster order and why they were different... I'm not sure how much you know about game design, but that isn't much more work. Why make the Brawl icons completely different then in the final roster? That's just more idle work! But not very much. Making the connections between selecting the characters, creating the logic connections that putting your cursor and selecting that icon means you will be using that character, that's a bit of work. But rearranging? That's easy, you're just moving stuff around, the connections are all still there. Not to mention the fact that there were different characters on both rosters, of course they are going to look different.

And again, I also stated that it could be the final design, but that doesn't mean it is.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I am not saying the Gematsu leak is false, why are you implying that? I am saying there is no reason to believe that is all we are getting. I am saying it is vague, old (Yes, it is old. This is not information we have now, this is information we had then. They were still DEBATING cutting Lucas or Ness, I.E., the roster was NOT finalized), and missing information, and the combination of those 3 things means no conclusions can be made as to if it is definite or not. That is it.

If there were more to come, it is very likely that the 3rd part of Gematsu would have covered it. Let's look at what's happened so far:

Part 1: Six newcomers.
<Rosalina Happens>
Part 2: Five newcomers.
Part 3: No newcomers, elaborations on a possible cut not hinted to yet, allegation of the implementation of DLC.

It is very suspicious that the leak came up with five new names for part 2, and for part three, couldn't manage one. Not Ridley, not K. Rool, not Krystal, not even a mention of possible veterans like Mewtwo. Why? Security obviously isn't the best. Anything particularly newsworthy would have likely been covered by the 3rd part of the leak. I interpret this as the status quo is being maintained as far as the major players(Mewtwo, Krystal, K. Rool being absent, Ridley's still a boss).

To the roster order and why they were different... I'm not sure how much you know about game design, but that isn't much more work. Why make the Brawl icons completely different then in the final roster? That's just more idle work! But not very much. Making the connections between selecting the characters, creating the logic connections that putting your cursor and selecting that icon means you will be using that character, that's a bit of work. But rearranging? That's easy, you're just moving stuff around, the connections are all still there. Not to mention the fact that there were different characters on both rosters, of course they are going to look different.

Characters were different on the two platforms, that's right, but there are severe disruptions in the order. Fox is ahead of Marth on the Wii U, yet on the 3DS, he's after Marth, Kirby, and Little Mac! It's not just a matter of easy rearranging, there's a plan to the new arrangement.

And again, I also stated that it could be the final design, but that doesn't mean it is.

Fair enough. Two and a half months out from release, though? That's really pushing it.

 

[Kalimdori]

If there were more to come, it is very likely that the 3rd part of Gematsu would have covered it. Let's look at what's happened so far:

Part 1: Six newcomers.
<Rosalina Happens>
Part 2: Five newcomers.
Part 3: No newcomers, elaborations on a possible cut not hinted to yet, allegation of the implementation of DLC.

It is very suspicious that the leak came up with five new names for part 2, and for part three, couldn't manage one. Not Ridley, not K. Rool, not Krystal, not even a mention of possible veterans like Mewtwo. Why? Security obviously isn't the best. Anything particularly newsworthy would have likely been covered by the 3rd part of the leak. I interpret this as the status quo is being maintained as far as the major players(Mewtwo, Krystal, K. Rool being absent, Ridley's still a boss).



Characters were different on the two platforms, that's right, but there are severe disruptions in the order. Fox is ahead of Marth on the Wii U, yet on the 3DS, he's after Marth, Kirby, and Little Mac! It's not just a matter of easy rearranging, there's a plan to the new arrangement.



Fair enough. Two and a half months out from release, though? That's really pushing it.

He couldn't come up with any other veterans either. And I already displayed that he didn't get the information before the roster was finalized, otherwise, he would have known whether Ness or Lucas was cut. He doesn't know the final roster, that alone proves it!

And you are simply assuming there is a plan for new arrangement. Could there be? Sure, of course there could be. Could they have just added the slots as they decided the characters to be in the demo? Maybe. Could Sakurai just be intentionally messing with us. Maybe. But changing the organization of the roster is literally as easy as moving the picture. That's it. You don't have to mess with logic connections, don't have to write new code, you just have to move the picture. It is stupidly easy to do, it's not like its a last minute thing, they could be swapping it around right now.

Let me give you an example: I work as a QA Tester for the video game industry. The game I'm working on (I'm not sure I'm allowed to say, so I won't) has a skill tree in it. Throughout the past 3 months, that skill tree has been reorganized and recolored at least a dozen times whenever a better design is found. The game comes out in a month. It is simply a graphic on the screen, all the work is already done, your just moving around where it goes. It would take, I kid you not, maybe a little under 15 minutes to reorganize the entirety of that roster. (I am assuming that Sakurai is doing the easy way of linking the avatars by having the logic connections to their pictures, rather then their position.)

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

He couldn't come up with any other veterans either. And I already displayed that he didn't get the information before the roster was finalized, otherwise, he would have known whether Ness or Lucas was cut. He doesn't know the final roster, that alone proves it!

Why mention veterans when the status quo is being maintained or there aren't clear-cut examples that they are cut(ie Ivysaur/Squirtle and Snake)? Gematsu dealt with changes to the game and to the character lineup that weren't already being told to us.

And you are simply assuming there is a plan for new arrangement. Could there be? Sure, of course there could be. Could they have just added the slots as they decided the characters? Maybe. Could Sakurai just be intentionally messing with us. Maybe. But changing the organization of the roster is literally as easy as moving the picture. That's it. You don't have to mess with logic connections, don't have to write new code, you just have to move the picture. It is stupidly easy to do, it's not like its a last minute thing, they could be swapping it around right now.

Let me give you an example: I work as a QA Tester for the video game industry. The game I'm working on (I'm not sure I'm allowed to say, so I won't) has a skill tree in it. Throughout the past 3 months, that skill tree has been reorganized and recolored at least a dozen times whenever a better design is found. The game comes out in a month. It is simply a graphic on the screen, all the work is already done, your just moving around where it goes. It would take, I kid you not, maybe a little under 15 minutes to reorganize the entirety of that roster. (I am assuming that Sakurai is doing the easy way of linking the avatars by having the logic connections to their pictures, rather then their position.)

Well, we're at an impasse where nothing more can really be proven without belief in theory. We'll know for a fact what'll happen when the 25th slot opens up on the 3DS.

 

[Kalimdori]

Why mention veterans when the status quo is being maintained or there aren't clear-cut examples that they are cut(ie Ivysaur/Squirtle and Snake)? Gematsu dealt with changes to the game and to the character lineup that weren't already being told to us.

You are still dodging what I am saying.

He did not know whether Lucas or Ness was cut.

He did not know the final roster.

If he knew the final roster, he would have known who was cut, or if both were kept.

There isn't any room for doubt here, he does not know the final roster.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

You are still dodging what I am saying.

He did not know whether Lucas or Ness was cut.

He did not know the final roster.

If he knew the final roster, he would have known who was cut, or if both were kept.

There isn't any room for doubt here, he does not know the final roster.

Gematsu is only ambiguous in one regard as to the final roster, and even then, it still points at the full roster. The only question is Ness or Lucas, and it points toward Ness.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Y'know an Ice Climbers confirmation would be nice.

 

[Staarih]

Y'know an Ice Climbers confirmation would be nice.

Agreed! I was sure they were going to get shown at E3 but low and behold, we got no veterans at the event. Shame. But I'm still confident they'll be revealed before the game releases, hopefully sooner than later.