Character Discussion Thread

[praline]

Then Little Mac counts.

 

[Pacack]

I believe that Little Mac would probably count operating under that assumption though, even if he did not necessarily intend to revive Punch Out!! Something that he may have inadvertently done as a result of including him. Little Mac is for all intents and purposes an older Nintendo character.

This game released in 2009. Therefore, Punch-Out!! is not a "forgotten franchise", even if Sakurai is effectively breathing life into it through SSB4. So, no, he doesn't count as the "old" character for this game.

 

[9Volt]

Not little mac is retro char argument again...he IS not retro, he had a game last gen. (Good one and sold well if I remember correctly)

 

[Morbi]

This game released in 2009. Therefore, Punch-Out!! is not a "forgotten franchise", even if Sakurai is effectively breathing life into it through SSB4. So, no, he doesn't count as the "old" character for this game.

Ah, I had forgotten that you were the great and clairvoyant "Pacack," it is a good thing we have you here to discern Sakurai's thoughts and intents. Thank you.

 

[9Volt]

Ah, I had forgotten that you were the great and clairvoyant "Pacack," it is a good thing we have you here to discern Sakurai's thoughts and intents. Thank you.

He only showed facts: Game last gen = not retro char. The game sold well, is not a dead series like Kid Icarus or Ice Climbers (on brawl time period). Or all games that sold well and had a game last gen are retro?

 

[Pacack]

Ah, I had forgotten that you were the great and clairvoyant "Pacack," it is a good thing we have you here to discern Sakurai's thoughts and intents. Thank you.

I'm literally using exact quotes there when I use the quotation marks. Can you point out the flaw in my argument?

 

[Deleted member]

Guys, c'mon. The retro character is Captain Falcon. The last F-Zero game was released about a decade ago, and there are no plans for any new ones.

DEMOTED TO RETRO.

 

[Morbi]

He only showed facts: Game last gen = not retro char. The game sold well, is not a dead series like Kid Icarus or Ice Climbers. Or all games that sold well and had a game last gen are retro?

I do not want to argue semantics; you can believe what you will, it does not make your subjective opinion "fact." Little Mac is a retro character by definition whether you like it or not. He is; of course, not comparable to similar retro characters and I highly doubt Sakurai was alluding to Little Mac.

This game released in 2009. Therefore, Punch-Out!! is not a "forgotten franchise", even if Sakurai is effectively breathing life into it through SSB4. So, no, he doesn't count as the "old" character for this game.

Found it. It is called hearsay.

 

[9Volt]

I do not want to argue semantics; you can believe what you will, it does not make your subjective opinion "fact." Little Mac is a retro character by definition whether you like it or not. He is; of course, not comparable to similar retro characters and I highly doubt Sakurai was alluding to Little Mac.


Found it. It is called hearsay.

Why Little Mac is retro char and Mario not? Both had good games that sold well last gen, if smash came before a mario game in this gen them he is a retro char? Mario is a retro char on Melee?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Like I said with the "retro" thing.

Double standards.
Misquoting.
Fallacy patterns.

Hell, the last posts show how people are clueless about this whole thing.

 

[Morbi]

Why Little Mac is retro char and Mario not? Both had good games that sold well last gen, if smash came before a mario game in this gen them he is a retro char? Mario is a retro char on Melee?

Therein lies the problem; Mario is technically a retro character, but his consistent prominence detracts from that notion, per se. Again, "semantics."

Like I said with the "retro" thing.

Double standards.
Misquoting.
Fallacy patterns.

Hell, the last posts show how people are clueless about this whole thing.

Perhaps you could explain why it is a "double standard," I do not believe that you are using the phrase correctly first of all. Secondly, those are "arbitrary" patterns, not fallacy patterns.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think there's such thing as a Smash Bros "pattern" anymore.

Many so called "patterns" have been broken with this iteration.
So I suggest that characters get in based on their own merits, rather than simply being retro.
Takamaru and Mach Rider have these, no doubt.

As for Xenoblaze's "double standard" I would believe that he means it's happened twice, and people are stating that it has to happen again.

 

[False Sense]

Hell, the last posts show how people are clueless about this whole thing.

At this point, I don't think anyone has any idea how this all works.

 

[Pacack]

Found it. It is called hearsay.

No, that was deductive reasoning.

I am defining B through A.

A: [Character] is from a forgotten franchise that would be revitalized through inclusion in Smash.
B: [Character] is a retro character.

If A is false, then B is also false.

I don't think there's such thing as a Smash Bros "pattern" anymore.

Many so called "patterns" have been broken with this iteration.
So I suggest that characters get in based on their own merits, rather than simply being retro.
Takamaru and Mach Rider have these, no doubt.

As for Xenoblaze's "double standard" I would believe that he means it's happened twice, and people are stating that it has to happen again.

Since Sakurai is planning on adding a retro, that would be a point in their favor. However, not any retro will be chosen because they must have merits besides retro status.

 

[Morbi]

No, that was deductive reasoning.

I am defining B through A.

A: [Character] is from a forgotten franchise that would be revitalized through inclusion in Smash.
B: [Character] is a retro character.

If A is false, then B is also false.



Since Sakurai is planning on adding a retro, that would be a point in their favor. However, not any retro will be chosen because they must have merits besides retro status.

It is still hearsay, you cannot objectively assert that Sakurai feels that way as only Sakurai can assert that. I feel as though this should be overt; you are making an assumption (albeit through "deductive" reasoning).

Secondly, I believe that you are misconstruing the quote.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I think what Morbid is saying is that there is more to it than just getting one revival to get out of being a "retro". Like, I still consider Little Mac a retro. He got a revival on the Wii, and unless he continues to be consistent with the Punch-Out!! series, I doubt he will be seen as a modern franchise. Hell, I still consider Pit/Palutena retro.

Is that what you were saying?

 

[Pacack]

It is still hearsay, you cannot objectively assert that Sakurai feels that way as only Sakurai can assert that. I feel as though this should be overt; you are making an assumption (albeit through "deductive" reasoning).

Secondly, I believe that you are misconstruing the quote.

But that quote of "forgotten franchise" was something the interviewer said, which Sakurai responded to. The assumption that I am making is that he heard what was said and interpreted it accordingly. Is that too much of a stretch?

 

[Louie G.]

I consider Kid Icarus and Punch Out modern Nintendo franchises now, as the newest installments in the series have revolutionized them and rekindled their popularity. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of both down the line.

I can definitely see a retro happening again this time around.
It's just the leak making me suspicious.

 

[FlareHabanero]

As for Xenoblaze's "double standard" I would believe that he means it's happened twice, and people are stating that it has to happen again.

No.

"Characters must of been recent... unless they are retro."
"Characters must have more then one game... unless they are retro."
"Characters must be famous... unless they are retro."

Granted that the varies "criteria" by themselves have holes in them to begin with, but I can't be the only person that is noticing this stuff.

 

[Morbi]

But that quote of "forgotten franchise" was something the interviewer said, which Sakurai responded to. The assumption that I am making is that he heard what was said and interpreted it accordingly. Is that too much of a stretch?

I never insinuated that it was; I am asserting that it is hearsay regardless of whether or not the presumption is a safe assumption.

Sakurai-san: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros. From that perspective, I am probably in the most fortunate position in the world.
​

You interpret the quote as: "Sakurai stated we would get another (playable) retro character."
I interpret the quote as: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros.

 

[Croph]

I'm glad Sakurai based Little Mac on his Punch-Out Wii design (although it isn't a huge change). It's sexy, especially with that wicked, gelled-up hairdo. Almost as cool as Lucas' hair.

No.

"Characters must of been recent... unless they are retro."
"Characters must have more then one game... unless they are retro."
"Characters must be famous... unless they are retro."

Granted that the varies "criteria" by themselves have holes in them to begin with, but I can't be the only person that is noticing this stuff.

Oh boy, don't get me started on the "recentness" argument people abuse. I used to see it brought up a lot against Roy, for example.

 

[Louie G.]

I do think that Sakurai was referring to characters like Ice Climbers and Pit.

However I'm not positive that we'll be getting one of those this time around.

"Old" characters could just mean classic Nintendo characters, too.
Little Mac, Palutena, Mega Man, Pac-Man...
They're "old characters" by definition.

 

[Pacack]

I never insinuated that it was; I am asserting that it is hearsay regardless of whether or not the presumption is a safe assumption.

Sakurai-san: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros. From that perspective, I am probably in the most fortunate position in the world.
​

You interpret the quote as: "Sakurai stated we would get another retro character."
I interpret the quote as: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros.

Ah, I understand what you're saying now. I am using context to interpret the quote. The interviewer is asking what Sakurai is planning on doing for his next revival ala Kid Icarus: Uprising (if he was to do another). Sakurai responded with that quote.

In my mind, because of the context, old characters = retros.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Oh boy, don't get me started on the "recentness" argument people abuse. I used to see it brought up a lot against Roy, for example.

It seems to only work for Fire Emblem and Pokemon from what I've seen (it's justified due to the nature of both franchises), while everything else is free game. Though at the same time I do think abuse it for the wrong reasons, because from a marketing standpoint it's not an inherent problem, but at the same that doesn't mean we're forced to completely overhaul everything, for the sake of consistency.

 

[Opossum]

Not to mention, the quote can also be taken as "old characters," as in, why we got Classic Mega Man, Classic Pac-Man, and Wire-Frame Mac. In that sense, he did bring back "old characters."

 

[Neerb]

No.

"Characters must of been recent... unless they are retro."
"Characters must have more then one game... unless they are retro."
"Characters must be famous... unless they are retro."

Granted that the varies "criteria" by themselves have holes in them to begin with, but I can't be the only person that is noticing this stuff.

There's a bizarre sort of "valley" in which many characters fall where they are neither recent enough nor retro; characters which the fans remember fondly but Nintendo may not particularly care about anymore [nor have reason to revive]. The 2nd gen Pokemon, King K. Rool, the Custom Robo franchise, non-Mario sports series such as 1080 and WaveRace, Famicom Wars (Advance/Battalion), and quite a few Fire Emblem games can be interpreted as being in this valley.

Meanwhile, "retro" characters are those who have not had their own game in several generations, even if they make cameo appearances elsewhere. ROB was retro despite his Mario Kart DS appearance, as is Takamaru in spite of Captain Rainbow, Nintendo Land, and Samurai Warriors (a 3rd party series) all referencing him. Ice Climbers and Mach Rider obviously fall here, and Pit and Little Mac both were until their recent revivals, though some people aren't yet used to them being back.

The issue is not so much that there is a "double standard" so much as the lines that define the valley being blurry. Is Zoroark too old now? Is Lucas old enough?

If people want retro characters, they need to aim for hard retro like Mr. G&W and Ice Climbers were in Melee and Pit & R.O.B. were in Brawl. Mach Rider and Mike Jones both still absolutely fall here, and Takamaru does too given his only appearances since the NES have been cameos and obscure references.

 

[Pacack]

Not to mention, the quote can also be taken as "old characters," as in, why we got Classic Mega Man, Classic Pac-Man, and Wire-Frame Mac. In that sense, he did bring back "old characters."

That's taking the quote entirely out of context. He was specifically asked what series he would like to bring back and he responded with saying that he'd like to bring back old characters through Smash. Classic Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Little Mac are not bringing back franchises in even the vaguest sense.

 

[Opossum]

That's taking the quote entirely out of context. He was specifically asked what series he would like to bring back and he responded with saying that he'd like to bring back old characters through Smash. Classic Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Little Mac are not bringing back franchises in even the vaguest sense.

That may have been the way it was asked, but it wasn't the way it was answered. He was asked about series, but he answered about old characters. Either something was lost in translation, or he seemed to be specifically dodging the question, in a way.

 

[praline]

Guys, c'mon. The retro character is Captain Falcon. The last F-Zero game was released about a decade ago, and there are no plans for any new ones.

DEMOTED TO RETRO.

And Ness.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I hate to say this on the Official thread but...
Some Konami rep told Snake fans to tweet Kojima_Hideo_En and Kojima_Hideo and ask nicely for an answer with the hashtag #Snake4Smash4.
If some of you could help out that'd be great after all we just want an answer.

 

[Deleted member]

And Ness.

Ness was always a retro character though. Except in Smash 64 and sort of Melee. Lucas isn't retro yet though. He's still got 2 years left! Ha ha ha ha!

 

[MagnesD3]

Since this is not a wishlist roster, but rather a prediction, I can't do that.

Snake's chances are lower than ever with Kojima's comment, E3 passing by without word of his fate, and Sakurai's using the "Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man" thing as a selling point; making it seem like those three are the only third parties.

On the other hand, we have Takamaru, who has plenty of evidence in his favor with more cameos than any other potential retro recently (Pikmin 2, Captain Rainbow, a song and a sticker in Brawl, Warioware DIY, Samurai Warriors 3, and Nintendoland); a very recent overseas release (for the first time) in Europe (but suspiciously not North America); Sakurai's somewhat out-of-place 1983 comment; and Sakurai's blessing for Retros:

Adam Riley: You have mentioned how you like to breathe new life into forgotten franchises. Now that Kid Icarus has been completed, what other old classic would you like to look at? Ice Climbers, Star Tropics,MoleMania…or something non-Nintendo?

Sakurai-san: I am planning on doing my best to bring old characters back in Smash Bros. From that perspective, I am probably in the most fortunate position in the world.
​

I'm sorry, but I think it's clear which one of these characters has more of a chance of getting into the game at this point.

If snake was in the game what else would kojima say, I honestly think Kojima was covering since he isnt gonna blatantly confirm an unannounced character.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Ness was always a retro character though. Except in Smash 64 and sort of Melee. Lucas isn't retro yet though. He's still got 2 years left! Ha ha ha ha!

2 Years?
Well we all know that Mr. Game and Watch is the true Retro.
I mean he hasn't been in one of his own games that's not a compilation since like... the 80's.

 

[Deleted member]

2 Years?
Well we all know that Mr. Game and Watch is the true Retro.
I mean he hasn't been in one of his own games that's not a compilation since like... the 80's.

The last F-Zero game was released 10 years ago. Falcon is now retro.
Mother 3 was released in 2006. 2 years and Lucas is retro.

I love taking jokes seriously!

 

[9Volt]

2 Years?
Well we all know that Mr. Game and Watch is the true Retro.
I mean he hasn't been in one of his own games that's not a compilation since like... the 80's.

Nintendo Land? XP
Would be cool a nintendo land stage/Assist Trophy

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The last F-Zero game was released 10 years ago. Falcon is now retro.
Mother 3 was released in 2006. 2 years and Lucas is retro.

I love taking jokes seriously!

I was joking also.
I understood, I was just saying that, if that were true it would make Mr. Game and Watch the MOST retro.
I think you misunderstood me.

 

[TitanTeaTime]

Well, unless I'm mistaken and despite being an assist trophy I'd say that the most retro character included in a Smash Bros game would be...

Ok back to semi-lurking

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Watch Sakurai trolls us and add the Duck Hunt Dog for the ultimate butthurt backlash.

(I'm only half kidding with this post)

 

[Pacack]

Well, unless I'm mistaken and despite being an assist trophy I'd say that the most retro character included in a Smash Bros game would be...

Ok back to semi-lurking

...That's a character?

 

[TitanTeaTime]

...That's a character?

Assist trophy at the very least. It's the oldest thing to appear in a Smash Bros game regardless, if I recall correctly.
inb4 Pong announced as a fighter in august