Character Discussion Thread

[Leafeon523]

Not much has changed aside from a few removals and moving characters up and down.

Just curious, is the C tier for potential clones?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Just curious, is the C tier for potential clones?

Yes, the C-tier is strictly for potential plausible semi-clones that Sakurai could add.

oh gad. this roster. i think i just puked in my mouth a bit

It's not a roster, it's a chance chart like the others above.

 

[Oblivion129]

This was an old chart, so I was assuming Ridley was deconfirmed, I can tell you I would put him in B or C- tier because I'm still unsure.

I agree with most of this, but I'd personally swap Paper Mario with Dr. Kawashima and add Ridley in A tier.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I agree with most of this, but I'd personally swap Paper Mario with Dr. Kawashima and add Ridley in A tier.

Main problem with putting Paper Mario on top tier is mostly because it's pretty unlikely Mario will get a sixth character after we just got Rosalina.

 

[Rockaphin]

Not much has changed aside from a few removals and moving characters up and down.

• Toon Zelda and Tetra are basically disconfirmed due to no transformations. Unless they're separate.
• Robin and Bandana Dee are too low.
• Dr. Kawashima, Prince Sable, ExiteBiker, Bubbles, Alph, Slime, and Dark Pit are too high.
• Other than the leak, Marshal is insanely too high. I understand if you believe the leak though.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

• Toon Zelda and Tetra are basically disconfirmed due to no transformations. Unless they're separate.

That is what I would assume.

 

[False Sense]

• Toon Zelda and Tetra are basically disconfirmed due to no transformations. Unless they're separate.
• Robin and Bandana Deeare too low.
• Dr. Kawashima, Prince Sable, ExiteBiker, Bubbles, Alph, Slime, and Dark Pit are too high.
• Other than the leak, Marshal is insanely too high. I understand I you believe the leak though.

@ BluePikmin11

Seconding Rockaphin here. Some of those characters are way too high, and some are needlessly low (there is no way that the likes of Dr. Kawashima are more likely than Robin).

 

[Deleted member]

Implying Toon Zelda needs Tetra to be playable (to which having a original version of Sheik was good enough for Brawl) or that Tetra needs Toon Zelda.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Implying Toon Zelda needs Tetra to be playable (to which having a original version of Sheik was good enough for Brawl) or that Tetra needs Toon Zelda.

I'd rather just see Tetra, honestly. I want to see Sakurai actually do something unique with Zelda for once. He hasn't done anything decent for the franchise since Melee and it's shaping up to be the same here, too.

 

[Deleted member]

Agreed on the Tetra part.
I'm hoping the "Toon *name*" characters stop at Link.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Implying Toon Zelda needs Tetra to be playable (to which having a original version of Sheik was good enough for Brawl) or that Tetra needs Toon Zelda.

Toon Zelda could plausibly be in.That said, watch tables get flipped if she ends up playable in this game. Brightly coloured pills may cure fever and chills, but it won't do much to soothe hatred.

 

[Deleted member]

I never said she couldn't.
I was just saying that Toon Zelda doesn't need Tetra nor does Tetra need Toon Zelda for either to show up.

 

[BluePikmin11]

@ BluePikmin11

Seconding Rockaphin here. Some of those characters are way too high, and some are needlessly low (there is no way that the likes of Dr. Kawashima are more likely than Robin).

Let's see a big new series like Brain
Age versus a slightly less noticeable FE:A character (than Chrom). Who wins out in the edge?

In all honesty, why should I move Robin to B tier? Because he's the other main character of the 13th FE game? I suppose I could though, Anna and Robin aren't equal in chance.

 

[False Sense]

Let's see a big new series like Brain
Age versus a slightly less noticeable FE:A character (than Chrom). Who wins out in the edge?

In all honesty, why should I move Robin to B tier? Because he's the other main character of the 13th FE game? I suppose I could though, Anna and Robin aren't equal in chance.

Definitely one of the two main characters of Fire Emblem Awakening. Dr. Kawashima is essentially ineligible as a character choice. It's a simple matter of one being possible and the other not.

 

[Louie G.]

Robin is WAY more likely than Kawashima. This is coming from a guy who thinks that Robin is severely overrated.
Nobody wants Kawashima, and quite frankly, he's way better as assist trophy material.
Andross will make it in as a playable character over him.

@ False Sense
There could be a new FE character, but for some reason I think that they could tie in Shulk with the Fire Emblem characters.
Just a hunch. Chrom would be a little bit of an underwhelming E3 reveal.

 

[Maxilian]

Let's see a big new series like Brain
Age versus a slightly less noticeable FE:A character (than Chrom). Who wins out in the edge?

In all honesty, why should I move Robin to B tier? Because he's the other main character of the 13th FE game? I suppose I could though, Anna and Robin aren't equal in chance.

Why is Ghirahim in tier C-?!


He's more likely than Zelda and Tetra and as likely as Tingle (that last part can be debated)

 

[BluePikmin11]

Why is Ghirahim in tier C-?!


He's more likely than Zelda and Tetra and as likely as Tingle (that last part can be debated)

I think he'll be set aside for AT status, for the same reasons Midna, Skull Kid, Geno are probably not going to make it.

 

[Louie G.]

I think he'll be set aside for AT status, for the same reasons Midna, Skull Kid, Geno are probably not going to make it.

Geno isn't even going to be a sticker, bud.

And I see no reason why any of these characters would be assists over Kawashima, a character that is literally 100% assist material.

 

[GamerGuy09]

This is my Tier List:

A: Pac-Man, Mii, Chrom

B: Palutena, MewTwo, Ridley, Shulk

C: Robin (Tactician), Isaac, King K. Rool

D: Marshal, Bandana Dee, Takamaru, Lucina

E: Excite Biker, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario, Ghirahim

Z: Bowser Jr., Baby Mario, Geno because Nintendo doesn't own him, and Charles Barkley.

 

[False Sense]

Geno isn't even going to be a sticker, bud.

And I see no reason why any of these characters would be assists over Kawashima, a character that is literally 100% assist material.

I'd question if he could even get in as an Assist. I mean, it would be a much better fit for him given the fact that he's a disembodied head, but putting a real life person into the game, even if it's only their likeness, and even if it's only as an Assist, would still be problematic.

 

[Maxilian]

I think he'll be set aside for AT status, for the same reasons Midna, Skull Kid, Geno are probably not going to make it.

Still even if that end up being his fate, he have more chance than Toon Zelda and Tetra and should be in the B tier with Tingle cause right now, the 2 Zelda character that are figthing for the spot are Ghirahim and Tingle, but in the end we don't know what could happen, both could end up as AT or just 1 and the other forgotten

 

[GamerGuy09]

Just wondering, but what is everyone's opinion on Excite Biker? I think he would be a neat addition, I would go and say he is the most well known NES game that hasn't been in a playable smash that never got a Reboot. Along with R.O.B and Ice Climbers.

 

[aldelaro5]

Ok, so, I got a response @GoldenYuiitusin and I'll have to tell you, there's some point in which I agree I was too biased and others that it all comes down to how to see his situation which is obviously different from each other. Overall, it was an enjoyable reading since I saw some good arguments that I never tough via devil advocate. So, let's do this!

Spoiler

I'll go ahead and do music for this too since it's going to be long and segmented as well.

Fine but I'll stick with my earthbound one because of reminding me how my decision will be critical. It just gives me the "realtalk" feel

I'm not saying that the potential for uniqueness is an "illusion", but I am saying that the fact it's the same character should give at least the notion that the odds of being at least a semi-clone are rather high.
We've had:
Dr. Mario
Young Link
Pichu
Toon Link

all of which were added separately from their counterparts yet were designed to be copies of the originals despite:
-Dr. Mario never using anything remotely like Mario's Cape and generally not doing any of the things Mario does (due to Dr. Mario's backstory of working endlessly on cures for diseases alongside Nurse Toadstool, which implies an entirely separate canon to the rest of the Mario franchise, but I'll explain that later)
-Young Link having the Masks from Majora's Mask as an entirely unique moveset option.
-Pichu not even being capable of using Skull Bash (nor is Pikachu past Gen II, but whatever) or Quick Attack (or even Agility, the move Pichu uses as its version of the attack).
-Toon Link having other weapons/items at his disposal to use such as the Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Gust Jar, Cane of Pacci, Slingshot, Roc's Cape, Mole Mitts, Fire Rod, Quake Medallion, Bombos Medallion, Bombchus, etc. to where he didn't need to be a full copy of Link.

I agree perfectly on Pichu (which was intentionally a joke), Yougn link (the mask is a good point) and somewhat on Dr mario (even if I see him more as semi clone, you seem to be more knowledgable enough than me so I'll let this one to you).

Toon link however, is where we don't have the same perspective. Now, I agree that the way he was done in brawl, he could have been much different to the regular link. I just think that the fact that the "toon" part of him is the aesthetic and the other items part are just any link in general which IMO, is kind of preventing him from crossing the semi clone line. To me, if the regular link could use the items you told, it would roughly act the same. I'm not saying this for the mask because it's another transformation gimmick that sounds unique for me (transformation is relevant here because melee had them but of course, it was removed in ssb4).

This is why my point about toon link later is different than yours but more detail later.[/QUOTE]

As I've repeatedly said, we've only had two alternate versions of existing characters that were not clones: Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.
And that's only because they were initially tied to the original character and were designed with direct contrasts of style in mind as opposed to similarities as how the separate additions were.

Yes those are alternate version but I don't see it that they could be classified as "same". For me, sheik doesn't even seem to have anything with zelda while still being technically her. Same as zero suit samus mainly because she doesn't have his armour and such new weapons and new way to play. Still, they are alternate version but I doubt that you could make them a clone (more than Paper Mario tbh with you). I think that we again, see the situation from a different perspective.

As for the motivation, now again, it's interpretation. Because I see Paper Mario have a different style that is not that much similarity to the main one (I said some because some of your points were good but that's later).

The fact that the only reasonable role for the non-plane ones are rolling dodge, sidestep, and swimming animations (which I've actually envisioned as their roles, mind you) prove my point that they ARE pointless for Smash.
It's just aesthetic effect that doesn't matter in the long run; they don't affect how Paper Mario works. Unlike say, a glide like I mentioned.

Oh I didn't see your argument the same you did. I tough you meant smash generally which would include everything a character has sorry about that

In this case, I'm going to say that you are mostly right (even the point I made with the hammer and the jump but again more details later). I said mostly because I'm going to be honest here with an IMO, just for the fact that toon link's design was different, it seems enough for me. I actually don't hate clones that much so when you said that it wouldn't matter, I'm quite in the minority there but it matters for me. Again, that's because I have quite open tastes. I find Paper Mario more unique than toon link mainly because of his RPG play style that seems fun to play as him. What I'm trying to say is it's not just because of the paper thing that I find him unique but it's what fits his play style that interests me.

Which is the only role the plane would fit; not an Up B. Do you not understand how the plane works? It's practically tailor-madefor the gliding system introduced in Brawl.

This is what i'm talking about. It doesn't have to be glide (I see it more as a recovery than a glide tbh). Also, the need for him to transform to a plane is mainly why I think like this. For me, an up b could involve him freezing for a split second while the glide would imo, feel awkward. But anyway, this is only one move and I said that I'm going to go in detail later.

-No, I consider "paper ability" as something that literally has to do with Mario being paper such as the TTYD curses. Not something that Mario can feasibly do not in the paper artstyle but simply hasn't done yet. Obviously, Mario can't just fold himself into an airplane while flesh and bone, can he?

Yeah I understood sorry about misunderstanding you

-The Ultra Jump? From SMRPG?

Apparently "Paper" Mario can't do that, since only SMRPG is listed for that technique.

…
…
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Wow that was dumb from my part. I state the jump itself as unique while I was alluding to the fact that he folds into himself to do that (which btw, follows your point about aesthetic above). Seriously, I played SMRPG I really don't know how it slipped from my mind (yeah the jumps is a long one with a ground pound but it's still similar anyway). Also, you will realize that this wasn't the only dumb thing I said but one step at a time.

Aside from that, you're not seriously saying that Mario (a.k.a. Jumpman) has to be in paper state to Jump on people are you? If you are, that's where this conversation ends.....

HAHAHA I found this funny Of course not claiming that Paper Mario is unique because he can jump is of course so dumb. I'm saying this but if you interpret it like this, that was because I didn't state my info correctly.

-The Super/Ultra Hammers?
You mean these?

Mario may not have to fold himself to use them, but Mario has used these (especially what is known as the "Super" Hammer in Paper Mario) in many games. Especially notable being in other RPGs such as SMRPG, where the standard Hammer from Paper Mario comes from.

Again, I was dumb again (but more than the last one). That's true because it comes from the model of SMRPG and the same goes for M&L. For the fold part, same for the jump I supported your argument without wanting to lol. What i should've said however (and this could apply to the jump) is the badge system. Now, i agree that power bounce is already in SMRPG but there's also badges that do status damage or other special effects (like cost fp but do more damage). The fp thing could be used as lag but here, I used mainly the hammer for this. For example, the U smash would be an hammer throw. There is a badge system in M&L but not as complex as the one in TTYD and PM64. If you think that just this isn't unique enough, I said that it was the additions of the potential for his play style that interested me so there's that.

-That gimmick about damaging foes by throwing others into them? Smash has that already. It's not character-exclusive nor is it throw-exclusive. It's part of the physics of knockback. Melee even features a Bonus you can achieve by KO'ing an opponent by running into them as you're sent flying.

Honestly, I had no idea. Maybe you could make the other foe dizzy with the ultra hammer but again, I don't think that it can be considered unique by itself. Well, you learn something everyday I may have to change this because of that (or else, it would feel like my side smash idea).

Unless you're talking about hitting a nearby opponent with your grabbed opponent's body as you're swinging him/her.
Which Mario and Luigi do in their back-throws.

Totally, not but I was aware of it (btw, my grab involves a summon of thoreau but more about summons will be explained).

-"The way he pulls stickers" doesn't say much for how "unique" to Paper Mario it is. I've seen how he does it; Mario could do it without being rendered in paper style.

The move itself? no not really but why are you telling that the main mario can do it? I can agree that the hammer and jumps are not only for him but the sticker? Also, it's just looked interesting to me because it would feel that the foe was a sticker that's all. I did used other moves when he uses sticker but those are minor (side tilt for a sweep tail assuming you can't attack with the leaf and u tilt as bashing upward with a spike helmet). To each his own but those were the moves I had to do last tbh because I just wanted my move set to make sense.

-I know I'm ignoring partners. Every Mario RPG has partners. ....except Paper Mario Sticker Star.
And you know what? It wouldn't be any different from having "Seven Stars Mario" summon Mallow, Geno, "Seven Stars Peach" and "Seven Stars Bowser" now would it? They aren't reflective of what Mario can do in the game, and neither are the partners of Paper Mario.
If the "best" way to reflect "Paper Mario" is to have him be a summoner for the sake of variety, something's terribly wrong.

This is where we think A LOT differently. The SMRPG structure does somewhat the same but even there, I wonder why saying that it doesn't reflect what Paper Mario HIMSELF does has to do anything with the fact that it shouldn't be used. There's also the fact that the only partner that would count for SMRPG would be mallow and geno (how does summoning peach or bowser makes sense?).

Ok you're last sentence here isn't a fact at all and if you think that it's wrong, for me I don't. Because in SMRPG, a partner's turn is the third of it and in the first 2 Paper Mario games, it's the half of a turn in battle. There's field moves but I didn't want to focus on them (and anyway the attacks on field are similar of one of their attacks in battle). In SPM, it's in real time which I did respect in my move set by not putting them in a switch mechanics but as a fixed move. What I want to tell you is that you use them so much in the Paper Mario games (first 3) that if I wanted to represent Paper Mario as a playable character, I would consider a part of him because he summons it mostly for an attack quite frequently. This is why I think it's a ok to do it but it's ok if it feels weird to you.

-"Action Command"/Timed Hits are not exclusive to Paper Mario. They're in all Mario RPGs as well. Aside from that, Action Commands are already featured in Smash in the Guard variety through Perfect Shielding and in the Attack variety for range in quite a few attacks, where the attack is stronger when it connects with the opponent from farther away or vice-versa.

Didn't know for the mechanics in melee so same as my ultra hammer point. As for the fact that they are all in RPG, yes they are but I just feel that they are so diverse in Paper Mario that they are good enough for me. implementing them won't hurts anybody (but maybe the melee mechanics and even then, I think you can go beyond that imo).

Given time, I probably could for both. However, I'm not the best when it comes to keeping the flow on a particular style; I'm more along the lines of coming up with numerous ideas that sound good and deviate from the standard Mario regardless of whether it fits the flow (which is honestly how you've shown to be as well; you and I are similar in that regard).
But at the same time, it's not enough to know they can be unique; the argument is not that they can. It's whether or not theywill. The answer is leaning towards no.

It seriously depends on how you see it. It's ok if you can't come with implementation ideas (I have to a lesser extent the same problem). And the argument is more about will it be a clone or not which I believe that you'd better put dr mario as clone than Paper Mario as clone. Since I don't believe he would be… it's more of does it make sense for me which I don't think so.

Please use the Enter Key more often; long run-on paragraphs like this are rather difficult to read through without straining my eyes....

Sorry, It the first time that I'm in a heated argument and even if I wanted it, I still have to learn (don't read my op your eyes will burn lol).

Read my point above on Toon Link; there was plenty of material to work with that weren't "bow, boomerang, bombs", and enough to replace many of the same copied slashes of the sword. Of course, you can't really get rid of certain aspects such as the sword attacks and still be able to call him "Link", but still.

I clarified why I don't think he necessary goes beyond the semi clone but that's just because my lines of uniqueness is broader than yours and that's ok (after all, that's why our opinion oppose each other).

Also, don't bring up "main Mario canon" in this.

Forget about this my argument made no sense and I wonder why I said it.

What I wanted to say is that the general fact that it's an RPG mario makes him unique enough for me (which of course, isn't the case for you).

And why argue about RPG mechanics when the M&L RPGs have damn near the same mechanics with a bunch of twists of their own?
Might as well have RPG Mario & Luigi in Smash instead; they're nothing at all like their platformer counterparts (especially since they are designed to work as a team), and are from a much more successful RPG franchise than Paper Mario.

They also happen to be visibly different (though were designed more like the platformer versions in Dream Team (more noticeable with Luigi))

That is pure preference from my part. I did support strongly Paper Mario before I played superstar saga but after I played it, I found the game great but a little weak but that's just imo. Also, if ther're nothing than their platform counterparts well tbh, that's how I see Paper Mario too which is why I'm even arguing here. I agree about the team idea but there's just one issue I have that you have not. Even as a clone, there's a need to tell the difference from the other character and I think they LOOK (not are) similar to the main mario. Even dr mario has a coat to differentiate him and paper Mario would be his paper form. But an M&L character just looks like mario to me even if they do stuff that mario don't. That's just me tough.

And please, the fact that it was successful has nothing to do with how Paper Mario can be a clone. If I don't support the idea as much as Paper Mario is because I want that the series deserves more rep (yes this implies not JUST the character but more detail later). Also, I didn't like superstar saga that much but this is not on topic so...

I think it's time for me to drop the big Bob-Omb: if you knew what "infinite potential" means, you wouldn't be saying it.
Every character in the entire span of everything has "infinite potential". Why is this?
Because what "infinite potential" means is that there is no possible end to the number of ideas in the realm of imagination within the human mind.

Perhaps you though merely of the words "infinite" and "potential" separately.
For something to be infinite, it has to be limitless or endless in space, extent, or size. Something that is impossible to measure.
Potential is generally referring to an unrealized ability. Though in this case, you're going for the philosophical context in that it's any "possibility" that a thing can be said to have.

In other words, you're saying Paper Mario has endless possibilities. Which, depending on how one looks at it can both be considered true and false.
When one factors in that, well, anything is possible? Then yes, Paper Mario has "endless possibilities". However, like with the above definition of infinite potential, this applies to everyone not just Paper Mario. Even Random Goomba #52 from Super Mario Galaxy has "endless possibilities" because anything can literally be done to make him work.

On the flip side, the sole fact that Paper Mario isn't some ever-changing living individual, and is instead a fictional character, his "possibilities" aren't quite so "endless" since all possibilities are limited to all the content within the Paper Mario games. It may seem endless due to the sheer number of options regardless of feasibility, but they are quite finite.

Long story short, "infinite potential" is not something to advertise; either because it applies to everything or because its a false statement by definition depending on perspective.

You didn't have to explain that long but I'll agree that (again) I mislead you.

His potential isn't endless (I didn't use the word as the literal sense). It's more if you want a slogan I use. It's not objectively true the goal of it is to give an impression not telling that he's max from scriblenauts (and again, is it literally infinite here?) It can be translated as "big potential" but here, it's not catchy. The reason I chose the word "infinite" is because it counters the belief of saying "another mario = clone" but I think I falsely accused you of thinking the same while the reply you just posted is a lot more deeper than this and for that, I apologize.

And I forgot to mention (again I should do more argument like this) that this applies for the representation of the series as well. Like stage or music which the list can be big so it respect the sense of having big potential while I'm not talking specifically about the character. It's something I should've said.

I agree that I underestimated your opinion on him but I assume my error.

Mr. Game & Watch is actually designed as a 3D model. He is, however, put under the "flattening" code at all times (whereas every other character only has it on when on the Flat Zone stages or Hanenbow).

I knew about that it I found that quite interesting but I tough that it was considered as 2D in the game so that's why I didn't mention it.

And in cases where "3D" characters like Mario (and Luigi) are forced to act like G&W?

It shows that (in the case of Mario, Dr. Mario and Luigi specifically) Mr. Game & Watch really has a similar body type to a regular character. The only reason he seems awkward is due to his frame-by-frame movements, his thick outline, and his animations often putting his limbs in strange positions only noticeable when someone else of his body frame mimics him.

First, that video is funny

But the frame by frame movement and the animation seems so awkward that I'm wondering if I would call that similar. Don't get me wrong they are in both 2D in game but a clone of G&W would include his frame by frame (or at least how I see it).

So really, are you going to tell me now that this somehow can't be done to Paper Mario as well?

Other than literally being Mario with a modded model under flattening effect, I'd say this is a good example of it working.

The video got released on August 2013 and the last hack video on him I watch was before E3 2013 so I couldn't know

But yeah... I'll give you that it would look plausible. Though, I still wonder why Sakurai would do that again but more detail later.

.....one of the first things I've talked about in our discussion when it was about Dr. Mario specifically was that he was added specifically to be a clone, which doesn't mean it's all he can do.
It's common knowledge that the clones in Melee were quick last-minute decisions.

Well ok it's just because I tough that I needed to source this but that's ok. Again, I can't prove you wrong about dr mario so i'll give you that.

Irrelevant. It didn't stop Toon Link from being added as a clone in Brawl. Nor did it stop Lucas and Wolf, newer semi-clones.
It also didn't stop Sakurai from planning on Toon Zelda with a Smash-original Toon Sheik form as a lower priority clone addition. Same with Dixie Kong as a semi-clone after the initial Diddy/Dixie tag-team concept was scrapped.
People were so damn sure there would be no clones in Brawl, let alone new ones. They were wrong.
And now, we see that Toon Link has returned and is still as much a clone as he was before. It's foolish to assume no newer clones will ever be added again. Especially when there is such a character that is highly requested in Japan to be a clone; Black Shadow (taking Ganondorf's old moves while Ganondorf gets a revamp).

Toon link I already explained myself. I don't consider wolf as a clone (again I have a different line of uniqueness - semi clone) but for lucas... I would need more info to prove you wrong. Mother 3 was released recently enough for him to have more chance but that's still wouldn't alone explains why he's a clone. I have to ask you does his potential is similar to ness or it can go beyond? Because I'm tempting to believe that it was similar to toon link (but anyway, you view his situation different as me so I guess it wouldn't matter for you anyway).

The problem that I have with toon zelda and dixie kong is that I would need to know facts that can't be known. What was their priority? Why exactly they would've been added? The only solid evidences for the forbidden seven that exists is that roy and mewtwo was more completed than the other one. I'm not denying that they could be clone for the same as melee but I just don't see anything that would prove it to me.

It all comes down to subjectivity. The way I see it, if it's "good enough" for Doc, it's "good enough" for Papes. At least Papes actually does have feasible means to be a clone while Doc requires things being made up just to be like Mario.

I also need to point out that the FACT there's a "time-crunch" so to speak means that clones, being as you said, simple, would be less wastes of time than an equal number of newer unique additions.
I'm not advocating for a bunch of new clones, don't get me wrong. But if Sakurai's hell-bent on bringing as much veterans as feasibly possible back while still adding some Newcomers, then new clones would be the most efficient way to do so.
However, there is the other possibility that there's just not going to be too many Newcomers planned on in which case Paper Mario isn't getting in at all. (Which is how I see it; if a 2nd Mario were to show up, it's going to be Doc's return and he's going to be a clone/semi-clone. But I don't see any cut Melee veteran returning except Mewtwo.)

It is subjective (as I learned from your reply). I just want to point out that the fact that some newcomers should go before Paper Mario is what hurts his chance the most. However, I think they should also come before the possible clones but still, we see this fact very differently each other.

I'm not judging the book by the cover. I'm judging the book by the contents without being clouded by the (excuse the bad pun) papier-mâché decorations that try to distract me from analyzing each page.

I like the analogy

But again, that was again me falsely accusing you. Your points were good enough to warrant respect from me so there's that.

And I apologize for the late reply as well.

....not so much the length.

Don't apologize I wanted that you explained in more detail like that

Ok, so I think that mostly you kinda get the patern here: since I see the line between semi clone and unique to be quite small, that just means that I won't see a potential clone as likely as you. However, you made me realize that there's another way to see the situation and I couldn't have guessed it vis devil advocate which is a win - win for me. It all comes down to how we interpret facts and it might lead like here to opinion that goes against each other. There's no right way; there's multiples ways to see and debating helps us to have a more accurate vision depending on how we see.

Thanks for the heated debate, i enjoyed it. You can reply to this if you want but I think that this discussion has to come to a close. I need to take this week end easy to contain my hype for E3 and recap what makes this game awesome as of now so I won't be in the mood of replying to you again but feel free to reply to this if you want. I knew what I needed to knew thanks for that again.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Just wondering, but what is everyone's opinion on Excite Biker? I think he would be a neat addition, I would go and say he is the most well known NES game that hasn't been in a playable smash that never got a Reboot. Along with R.O.B and Ice Climbers.

Along with Balloon Fighter too..
If we're going to get a mounted rider, it'll probably be Mach Rider as Sakurai seems to have a much bigger interest on him being playable.

 

[GamerGuy09]

Along with Balloon Fighter too..
If we're going to get a mounted rider, it'll probably be Mach Rider as Sakurai seems to have a much bigger interest on him being playable.

I would say Balloon Fighter got a reboot with Nintendo Land, but Excite Bike has never gotten any sort of update. I think that Excite Bike is more recognizable than Mach Rider, but that's just me.

 

[Sobreviviente]

I would say Balloon Fighter got a reboot with Nintendo Land, but Excite Bike has never gotten any sort of update. I think that Excite Bike is more recognizable than Mach Rider, but that's just me.

There was excitebike world rally for wii, excitebike with mario characters for satellaview and excitebike 64, also the excite truck series.

 

[GamerGuy09]

There was excitebike world rally for wii, excitebike with mario characters for satellaview and excitebike 64, also the excite truck series.

Huh, never knew that.

 

[Morbi]

This is my Tier List:

A: Pac-Man, Mii, Chrom

B: Palutena, MewTwo, Ridley, Shulk

C: Robin (Tactician), Isaac, King K. Rool

D: Marshal, Bandana Dee, Takamaru, Lucina

E: Excite Biker, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario, Ghirahim

Z: Bowser Jr., Baby Mario, Geno because Nintendo doesn't own him, and Charles Barkley.

This is MY Tier List:

A: Ganon, Hades, Black Shadow, Mewtwo, Robin

B: Every other character that is arbitrary deemed "likely"

C: Every other character

D: Third-Party characters that are not veterans or associated with the developers

E: Pac-Man, Mii, and Chrom (only because they were your "A-Tier"

 

[GamerGuy09]

This is MY Tier List:

A: Ganon, Hades, Black Shadow, Mewtwo, Robin

B: Every other character that is arbitrary deemed "likely"

C: Every other character

D: Third-Party characters that are not veterans or associated with the developers

E: Pac-Man, Mii, and Chrom (only because they were your "A-Tier"

Ganon as in Pig Ganon? I don't find that likely in my eyes. Along with Hades. Maybe Black Shadow if he gets Ganondorf's old moveset.

 

[False Sense]

Ganon as in Pig Ganon? I don't find that likely in my eyes.

I think you missed the joke.

 

[Deleted member]

@ aldelaro5
I will continue our discussion later tonight (have an appointment in about an hour, and will be at a prior engagement after that), though I have to say this has been rather pleasant of a conversational debate.

I do warn though not to use the term "heated debate", as it gives off a negative connotation that we've been at each other's throats, which is subject for forum moderation.

 

[aldelaro5]

@ aldelaro5
I will continue our discussion later tonight (have an appointment in about an hour, and will be at a prior engagement after that), though I have to say this has been rather pleasant of a conversational debate.

I do warn though not to use the term "heated debate", as it gives off a negative connotation that we've been at each other's throats, which is subject for forum moderation.

Well, ok that's fine considering it could be considered flamming which isn't.

See? That's why I think debates can be enjoyable even with opinions that are totally opposing each other. It all has to do with the way you do it.

 

[praline]

• Toon Zelda and Tetra are basically disconfirmed due to no transformations. Unless they're separate.
• Robin and Bandana Deeare too low.
• Dr. Kawashima, Prince Sable, ExiteBiker, Bubbles, Alph, Slime, and Dark Pit are too high.
• Other than the leak, Marshal is insanely too high. I understand I you believe the leak though.

Tetra could be playable without a transformation. If they gave Sheik a moveset they could easily make one for Tetra.

 

[Maxilian]

Tetra could be playable without a transformation. If they gave Sheik a moveset they could easily make one for Tetra.

GHIRAHIM! ENOUGH SAID!

O.T: Well you're right, but still thats pretty unlikely

 

[praline]

GHIRAHIM! ENOUGH SAID!

O.T: Well you're right, but still thats pretty unlikely

Nah man. Ghirahim's not happening.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Nah man. Ghirahim's not happening.

I sure hope not. I'm praying with every fiber of my being that it's not.

 

[JFM2796]

Yeah I don't really want Ghirahim in this game. I'd be good with Debbie though.

 

[Rockaphin]

I'm very bored and I'll post this before E3. I call it my Support Tier!

Basically, I broke the characters that I support up into categories. Obviously the higher they are, the more I support them.
Just because a character is near the bottom doesn't mean I don't support them. I support all characters on this list, which is why I call it my Support Tier.

. . . Yes I'm that bored.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Hmm.. I think I may try a support tier next time, that seems very interesting to do.

 

[Pega-pony Princess]

This anti-ghirahim talk...Do you know how that makes me feel inside? Furious! Outraged! Sick with anger!