NOTE TO MODS: There is no Flaming within in this post; don't confuse a lengthy argument for a heated one!
@
aldelaro5
Now that I have time to dig deep in that long response of yours....I'll go ahead and do it.
You said something that I didn't expect to be said because for me, it shouldn't make sense.
Since you asked…
REALTALK!!!
I'm going to do this in segments
I'll go ahead and do music for this too since it's going to be long and segmented as well.
This is partially true. What is true is that yes smrpg mario, M&L mario and most of the mario including Dr mario DOES feel different to the main mario. What isn't true is saying "there are aspects such as partners, items, etc. that give the impression that it isn't just plain ol' Mario.". How I interpret this is that you're basically claiming that just because he's still mario, even adding something that doesn't even match the mario series, it's still the same character and shouldn't be considered as guaranteed to be unique and his uniqueness would be an "illusion". However, since you're precising you're point, I'm just going to tell you what you said that just seems wrong.
I'm not saying that the potential for uniqueness is an "illusion", but I
am saying that the fact it's the same character should give at least the notion that the odds of being at least a semi-clone are rather high.
We've had:
Dr. Mario
Young Link
Pichu
Toon Link
all of which were added separately from their counterparts yet were designed to be copies of the originals despite:
-Dr. Mario never using anything remotely like Mario's Cape and generally not doing any of the things Mario does (due to Dr. Mario's backstory of working
endlessly on cures for diseases alongside Nurse Toadstool, which implies an entirely separate canon to the rest of the Mario franchise, but I'll explain that later)
-Young Link having the Masks from Majora's Mask as an entirely unique moveset option.
-Pichu not even being
capable of using Skull Bash (nor is Pikachu past Gen II, but whatever) or Quick Attack (or even Agility, the move Pichu uses as its version of the attack).
-Toon Link having other weapons/items at his disposal to use such as the Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Gust Jar, Cane of Pacci, Slingshot, Roc's Cape, Mole Mitts, Fire Rod, Quake Medallion, Bombos Medallion, Bombchus, etc. to where he didn't need to be a full copy of Link.
As I've repeatedly said, we've only had two alternate versions of existing characters that were not clones: Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.
And that's only because they were initially tied to the original character and were designed with direct contrasts of style in mind as opposed to similarities as how the separate additions were.
First , "TTYD's Paper abilities (which are rather pointless for Smash outside the Plane being used for a glide)" just WHAT??? So, not only you're claiming that his ability doesn't make him unique but you're also claiming that they just aren't useful for smash? Do I seriously have to quote some move sets for you to understand that yes you can use them and yes it makes him unique? If we just take the paper ability, we have
- the airplane of course as a possible up b
- the tube as a rolling dodge
- the paper thin as sidestep
- as for the boat, it could be used as swimming animation on the water
The fact that the only reasonable role for the non-plane ones are rolling dodge, sidestep, and swimming animations (which I've actually
envisioned as their roles, mind you) prove my point that they ARE pointless for Smash.
It's just aesthetic effect that doesn't matter in the long run; they don't affect how Paper Mario works. Unlike say, a glide like I mentioned.
Which is the
only role the plane would fit; not an Up B. Do you not understand how the plane works? It's practically
tailor-made for the gliding system introduced in Brawl.
Now if you're going to tell that those aren't moves (except the up b), let me remind you that those are JUST the power up. If you consider "paper ability" as "ability that only him as a paper can do", well you have the ultra jump (for me, as a down throw) and the super/ultra hammer where he folds into himself (for me, as a neutral combo and side throw with a special gimmick: if the foe is thrown into someone else, he take some damage). I found also that when he would peels stickers in sticker star would make a good back throw. Also, this is only a part of the potentials but for some reasons, you're ignoring the biggest part: partners. You REALLY need to explain this to me because by saying that it's JUST mario after ignoring big potential is like saying that rosalina isn't unique because I ignored the luma. Seriously, why it doesn't make a difference? It's only in the Paper Mario games that you have those mechanics. Also, this can include an action command gimmicks (yeah that was my second gimmick potential).
-No, I consider "paper ability" as something that literally has to do with Mario being paper such as the TTYD curses. Not something that Mario can feasibly do not in the paper artstyle but simply hasn't done yet. Obviously, Mario can't just fold himself into an airplane while flesh and bone, can he?
-The Ultra Jump? From SMRPG?
Apparently "Paper" Mario
can't do that, since only SMRPG is listed for that technique.
Aside from that, you're not
seriously saying that Mario (a.k.a.
Jumpman)
has to be in paper state to Jump on people are you? If you are, that's where this conversation ends.....
-The Super/Ultra Hammers?
You mean
these?
Mario may not have to fold himself to use them, but Mario has used these (especially what is known as the "Super" Hammer in Paper Mario) in many games. Especially notable being in
other RPGs such as SMRPG, where the standard Hammer from Paper Mario comes from.
-That gimmick about damaging foes by throwing others into them? Smash has that already. It's not character-exclusive nor is it throw-exclusive. It's part of the physics of knockback. Melee even features a Bonus you can achieve by KO'ing an opponent by running into them as you're sent flying.
Unless you're talking about hitting a nearby opponent with your grabbed opponent's body as you're swinging him/her.
Which Mario and Luigi do in their back-throws.
-"The way he pulls stickers" doesn't say much for how "unique" to Paper Mario it is. I've seen how he does it; Mario could do it without being rendered in paper style.
-I know I'm ignoring partners.
Every Mario RPG has partners. ....except Paper Mario Sticker Star.
And you know what? It wouldn't be any different from having "Seven Stars Mario" summon Mallow, Geno, "Seven Stars Peach" and "Seven Stars Bowser" now would it? They aren't reflective of what Mario can do in the game, and neither are the partners of Paper Mario.
If the "best" way to reflect "Paper Mario" is to have him be a summoner for the sake of variety, something's terribly wrong.
-"Action Command"/Timed Hits are not exclusive to Paper Mario. They're in all Mario RPGs as well. Aside from that, Action Commands are already featured in Smash in the Guard variety through Perfect Shielding and in the Attack variety for range in quite a few attacks, where the attack is stronger when it connects with the opponent from farther away or vice-versa.
Also, yes the fact that he doesn't feel like mario applies to his other iteration. But here, I have my issue again can you do a playstyle and keep it consistent on a whole moveset? To my knowledge, Paper Mario is the one that goes the furthest so this explains why I still said that.
Given time, I probably could for
both. However, I'm not the best when it comes to keeping the flow on a particular style; I'm more along the lines of coming up with numerous ideas that sound good and deviate from the standard Mario regardless of whether it fits the flow (which is honestly how you've shown to be as well; you and I are similar in that regard).
But at the same time, it's not enough to know they
can be unique; the argument is
not that they can. It's whether or not they
will. The answer is leaning towards no.
Sorry, but you're point about toon link doesn't tell the full story. Toon link roughly worked the same as link even in his own games. What this means here is that the maximum you could push his potential is ability that only him can do but because he was based on link, playing the same way and feel the same as link, his abilities are quite similar to the main link. In fact do remember that the main reason he was added was because the toon art style became significant enough to warrant consideration but I don't think that you could push his potential beyond the semi clone anyway. In fact, his play style is almost the same as link just modified a little. So, yes his art style IS the main thing that makes him "different" (not by much of course) but claiming that Paper Mario is a toon link case is TOTALLY FALSE! First, the maximum you can push to his potential is easily crushing the semi clone line. Second, you don't play the same as Paper Mario like you would with Mario (I think we can agree that this is the case of most mario like I said above). Third, his abilities aren't similar to mario (mainly due to him coming from an RPG which means different mechanics). Finally, I can agree that the character was based on mario but the RPG mechanics? They ARE mario-esque but do they come from the main mario series canon? That's because it's a branch of the mario series which means the same flavour but represented differently (even to the point of changing the mechanics). Wind waker however is from the main series and the art style is mostly just aesthetic (except the form of toon link being lighter and shorter). In fact, as a semi clone, he would uses items from wind waker but here, the art style doesn't make any difference: the item used is just different which let me remind you that it's still similar to link which uses a lot of items. So, I'm asking this question: How does Paper Mario becomes a toon link case ONLY because of the different art style? Because that's not JUST because of the art style that he's unique.
Please use the Enter Key more often; long run-on paragraphs like this are rather difficult to read through without straining my eyes....
Read my point above on Toon Link; there was plenty of material to work with that weren't "bow, boomerang, bombs", and enough to replace many of the same copied slashes of the sword. Of course, you can't really get rid of certain aspects such as the sword attacks and still be able to call him "Link", but still.
Also, don't bring up "main Mario canon" in this.
There
is no set canon in the Mario franchise; Paper Mario fits within the same exact canon as Super Mario Bros.....
Goombario said:
This is a Goomba. Goombas are what you'd call "small fries." Actually, they're pretty much the smallest fries. ...Hey, wait! I'm one of 'em! You can jump on them or whack 'em with the Hammer. These guys are old school. They've been around since you were in Super Mario Bros.!
...and even Mario Party, Mario Tennis, and Mario Golf.
Luigi's Diary said:
Page 1: Once again, my brother went on an exciting journey. Once again, he went alone. It's so unfair! I remember the carefree days when we played Golf and Tennis and had Parties. I remodeled the house and made a secret basement my brother has no idea! It's the perfect place to write in you, my secret diary.
The only exception being Dr. Mario as stated above. Namely because plenty of elements from the Dr. Mario franchise causing major plotholes to the canon, with Mario being too preoccupied with designing cures for diseases and wiping out viruses/healing people to do anything else (except when Wario swipes the Megavitamins to sell during flu season in Dr. Mario 64), Nurse Toadstool being his trusted assistant who's always by his side (instead of governing the Mushroom Kingdom), and Dr. Mario 64 screwing entirely with Wario Land 3's continuity by featuring its enemies and final boss. I don't want to have to explain why...
And then there's Miyamoto's statement in regards to the Dr. Mario games, which implies the Dr. Mario games aren't canon (and thus are their
own canon):
GameInformer interview with Shigeru Miyamoto said:
SM: There's really only one rule in terms of the things that Mario does. Generally, it's that he's more on the blue-collar side. He's hard-working, and certainly much more physical in nature. So, I think that a doctor is sort of an unexpected and perhaps unbelievable role for Mario. Perhaps the Dr. Mario you're thinking of was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate.
And why argue about RPG mechanics when the M&L RPGs have damn near the same mechanics with a bunch of twists of their own?
Might as well have RPG Mario & Luigi in Smash instead; they're nothing at
all like their platformer counterparts (especially since they are designed to work as a team), and are from a much more successful RPG franchise than Paper Mario.
They also happen to be visibly different (though were designed more like the platformer versions in Dream Team (more noticeable with Luigi))
I think should have been more clear earlier because you don't seem to understand why I keep repeating "infinite potential"
I think it's time for me to drop the big Bob-Omb: if you knew what "infinite potential" means, you wouldn't be saying it.
Every character in the entire span of
everything has "infinite potential". Why is this?
Because what "infinite potential" means is that there is no possible end to the number of ideas in the realm of imagination within the human mind.
Perhaps you though merely of the words "infinite" and "potential" separately.
For something to be infinite, it has to be limitless or endless in space, extent, or size. Something that is impossible to measure.
Potential is generally referring to an unrealized ability. Though in this case, you're going for the philosophical context in that it's any "possibility" that a thing can be said to have.
In other words, you're saying Paper Mario has endless possibilities. Which, depending on how one looks at it can both be considered true and false.
When one factors in that, well,
anything is possible? Then yes, Paper Mario has "endless possibilities". However, like with the above definition of infinite potential, this applies to
everyone not just Paper Mario. Even Random Goomba #52 from Super Mario Galaxy has "endless possibilities" because anything can literally be done to make him work.
On the flip side, the sole fact that Paper Mario isn't some ever-changing living individual, and is instead a fictional character, his "possibilities" aren't quite so "endless" since all possibilities are limited to all the content within the Paper Mario games. It may
seem endless due to the sheer number of options regardless of feasibility, but they are quite finite.
Long story short, "infinite potential" is not something to advertise; either because it applies to everything or because its a false statement by definition depending on perspective.
I was already proven that he COULD be a clone (that was even discussed in his thread which I am the op). Now, let me say my thing with less bias: If you consider ALL his potential, I agree that you CAN make him as a clone. However, what you would need to know is that it wouldn't make any sense. In fact, you're using the Ganondorf case are you? I agree that it's quite the random character to do this but now, there's 2 main issues that makes that if he ever ended up being a clone or semi clone, Sakurai would've contradicted himself. Here's a the motivation behind Ganondorf being a clone:
Source:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37915502&postcount=7506
Ok, just this would be very contradictory. Paper Mario has only one character that has a similar body type and it's mr game & watch. Even there, mr game & watch represent how the systems were animated by lcd and to reflect this, he was made 2d and have frame by frame animation. Paper Mario is the complete opposite; he's very fluid (folds into a tube) and it's not perfectly 2d there's a 3d like when he would use super/ultra hammer but yes he's mostly 2d. So, the motivation behind ganondorf wouldn't match him so, let's try the one with dr mario:
Mr. Game & Watch is actually designed as a 3D model. He is, however, put under the "flattening" code at all times (whereas every other character only has it on when on the Flat Zone stages or Hanenbow).
And in cases where "3D" characters like Mario (and Luigi) are forced to act like G&W?
It shows that (in the case of Mario, Dr. Mario and Luigi specifically) Mr. Game & Watch
really has a similar body type to a regular character. The only reason he seems awkward is due to his frame-by-frame movements, his thick outline, and his animations often putting his limbs in strange positions only noticeable when someone else of his body frame mimics him.
So really, are you going to tell me now that this somehow
can't be done to Paper Mario as well?
Other than literally being Mario with a modded model under flattening effect, I'd say this is a good example of it working.
Despite being... kinda weird but I think most people knew about the music part. What I'm interested here isn't that it has nothing to do with Paper Mario but that do you see something that seems odd about the motivations? I can tell you: It sounds like they wanted to add clones for the sake of having more characters (read more on the source above). In fact, melee became to a point where they just wanted to add characters (I don't have any source so if someone knows where it was told, please, send the link to me but I know it can be proven).
.....one of the first things I've talked about in our discussion when it was about Dr. Mario specifically was that he was added specifically to be a clone, which doesn't mean it's all he can do.
It's common knowledge that the clones in Melee were quick last-minute decisions.
So, let's get back to your point. What does this all have to with Paper Mario? It has to do with the fact that Ganondorf and dr mario were deliberately made as clone/semi clone to just have more characters. But today, the game already has a bigger roster than melee so now, there's no real reason to add new clone. The only one that has a reason are those who were present before like dr mario.
Irrelevant. It didn't stop Toon Link from being added as a clone in
Brawl. Nor did it stop Lucas and Wolf, newer semi-clones.
It also didn't stop Sakurai from planning on Toon Zelda with a Smash-original Toon Sheik form as a lower priority clone addition. Same with Dixie Kong as a semi-clone after the initial Diddy/Dixie tag-team concept was scrapped.
People were so damn sure there would be no clones in Brawl, let alone
new ones. They were wrong.
And now, we see that Toon Link has returned and is still as much a clone as he was before. It's foolish to assume no newer clones will ever be added again. Especially when there
is such a character that is highly requested in Japan to
be a clone; Black Shadow (taking Ganondorf's old moves while Ganondorf gets a revamp).
So now, I repeat a lot "infinite potential" right? there's 2 reasons for it. 1: it directly counters the fact that he's JUST another mario and 2: because it's crazy what you can do with him. You deliberately tried to make a clone moveset while in the end, accepting this would mean that I would have just contradicted myself.
Already covered why "infinite potential" is not a good thing to say. Repeating it doesn't make it any better.
I said this earlier when talking about dr mario:
So, here's my question: does the "signature" or playstyle you claim would feel natural for him and translate pretty well in ssb4? That's the main problem I have: it doesn't because he clearly doesn't play like mario. I'm talking about a playstyle that would look like this "light but quite versatile in every situation". So, how does playing like mario feels natural for him? Since it makes no sense for him to be a clone or semi clone now, how can he have hight chance to be now? Sakurai even said that he can't bring all the character back even if he'll try to add as much as he can so, how could he seriously waste an entire gigantic potential and development time that he needs for a simple clone?
It all comes down to subjectivity. The way I see it, if it's "good enough" for Doc, it's "good enough" for Papes. At least Papes actually
does have feasible means to be a clone while Doc requires things being made up just to be like Mario.
I also need to point out that the FACT there's a "time-crunch" so to speak means that clones, being as you said, simple, would be less wastes of time than an equal number of newer unique additions.
I'm not advocating for a bunch of new clones, don't get me wrong. But if Sakurai's hell-bent on bringing as much veterans as feasibly possible back while still adding some Newcomers, then new clones would be the most efficient way to do so.
However, there is the other possibility that there's just not going to be too many Newcomers planned on in which case Paper Mario isn't getting in
at all. (Which is how I see it; if a 2nd Mario were to show up, it's going to be Doc's return and he's going to be a clone/semi-clone. But I don't see any cut Melee veteran returning except Mewtwo.)
I just don't understand your point. In fact, the "JUST another mario" argument overshadows his true potential. It leads to the belief that he's a toon link case while he's far beyond that. It's frustrating that such an argument exists because people judge a book by its cover. I'm telling you it just can't be a clone because if it would happens, it would be intentional and it wouldn't even follow how the character play at all.
I'm not judging the book by the cover. I'm judging the book by the contents without being clouded by the (excuse the bad pun) papier-mâché decorations that try to distract me from analyzing each page.
DISCLAIMER: this wall of text was big IMO and so, if I sated things as fact, do consider that those are interpretation of them and so, not undeniable.
That's it. Sorry for the late reply but school takes priority over big argument.
And I apologize for the late reply as well.
....not so much the length.
