Character Discussion Thread

[OblivionWolf]

No; the Ice Climbers will not indefinitely return. Anyone stating otherwise is delusional, this does not mean that they will not return. It means that they will not indefinitely return.

I think a better question is how many people would actually be upset if there gone? I think there adorable and all but I wouldn't miss them that much.

 

[aldelaro5]

I think the Mario & Luigi series is criminally underrepresented in the Smash series. Why not have a Fawful Assist Trophy, or maybe just a trophy of him, or the Shroobs, or the metal hammers? Like, Mario could use his hammer in the same way he uses his fist for his forward aerial.

Lol. Or they could have Mario & Luigi as a new character. They'd be drawn in a slightly different art style with slightly different bodily proportions and they would use hammers, items, and Bros. Attacks. Hahahahahaha.

oh well... if you think that the M&L series is underrepresented, than, paper mario is ALOT worse. Trust me the M&L got a music in brawl but no paper mario one. if M&L should get more rep, then there's literally no reason to not do the same for paper mario.

 

[False Sense]

Hey everyone, I think this should be given a read:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/07/03/creating-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-and-3ds?page=2

It's slightly outdated yes, but there is 1 piece that should be highlighted in the second page:

" 'multiple character' combatants like the Ice Climbers were proving a technical challenge on the 3DS."

So to take a break from the whole Ghirahiem vs Ganon debate;
will the Ice Climbers indefinitely return?
Because the more I think about it I'm not sure if the 3DS could handle 8 characters all at once, 4 with a fairly sophisticated AI and all of them with their own Damage Percentage that must constantly be calculated. That's not including all the items, Assist Trophies, Pokemon and stage shenanigans that are going on at the same time.

Rosalina is a special case because the AI appears more primitive and Luma's don't have a damage percentage, just a set amount of punishment it can take before dying. Plus Lumas are smaller and don't have as many polygons to process like a full character does.

Also to reply to Jerry Applesauce, RAY MK III FOR SMASH!!!!!!!!

I say Ice Climbers are in due to the reference to their series in Smash Run. Not to mention, the fact that they mentioned them means that they're trying to bring them back.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Second-to-worst case scenario: Popo is a standalone fighter, Nana is an alt, new up aerial (a Condor lift would be most reasonable).

oh well... if you think that the M&L series is underrepresented, than, paper mario is ALOT worse. Trust me the M&L got a music in brawl but no paper mario one. if M&L should get more rep, then there's literally no reason to not do the same for paper mario.

Also, YES to Paper Mario being underrepresented. It deserves a stage, trophies, and the freaking MUSIC. WHY DID THEY NOT INCLUDE PAPER MARIO MUSIC? Especially from Thousand-Year Door! Couple that with the fact that Yuka Tsujiyoko composed the first two games, which were also the best two games! Yes, Yuka Tsujiyoko! That Fire Emblem composer? Yeah, her!

I need to chill.

 

[Morbi]

I think a better question is how many people would actually be upset if there gone? I think there adorable and all but I wouldn't miss them that much.

I wouldn't necessarily miss them, but they are my "go to" characters when I want to try something less traditional. Albeit, Rosalina probably replaced them.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'd sooner see the Ice Climbers go solo than them getting cut entirely. I doubt Sakurai will be getting rid of them just because of technical difficulties on the 3DS version imo. :/

 

[Morbi]

Second-to-worst case scenario: Popo is a standalone fighter, Nana is an alt, new up aerial.

Popo would need some major buffs to be a standalone fighter.

I'd sooner see the Ice Climbers go solo than them getting cut entirely. I doubt Sakurai will be getting rid of them just because of technical difficulties on the 3DS version imo. :/

It would be an interesting concept, but at the same time, I don't feel as though Sakurai will have much of an obligation to keep Popo just because. I mean, didn't he choose the Ice Climbers because there were two of them?

 

[Bowserlick]

Here is a neat change to the Ice Climbers.

Have them tied together with a bungee cord that allows them to be slightly apart.
PoPo and NaNa each have separate weight.

BUT they are attached. So there would be wonky physics at work where they could revolve around each other, momentum shift, and other such fun effects.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

didn't he choose the Ice Climbers because there were two of them?

If I recall correctly, he chose them because he was looking for retro characters, and because at the time Balloon Fighter or Excitebike Rider or Bubbles didn't fit the mold, he went for them.

 

[Boss N]

Popo would need some major buffs to be a standalone fighter.


It would be an interesting concept, but at the same time, I don't feel as though Sakurai will have much of an obligation to keep Popo just because. I mean, didn't he choose the Ice Climbers because there were two of them?

Well in the original NES game there was only 1 Ice Climber. I believe he added 2 as a way to make them more unique.
Their original purpose was to represent the NES nintendo days, it was either them or the Excitebike Racer

EDIT: Well looks like Jerry beat me to the explanation

 

[Morbi]

If I recall correctly, he chose them because he was looking for retro characters, and because at the time Balloon Fighter or Excitebike Rider or Bubbles didn't fit the mold, he went for them.

Well in the original NES game there was only 1 Ice Climber. I believe he added 2 as a way to make them more unique.
Their original purpose was to represent the NES nintendo days, it was either them or the Excitebike Racer

Thank you, I appreciate the response(s). I suppose SoPo isn't entirely out of the question. I always enjoyed the notion that there were two though; if there is only one, the move-sets more inherent generic nature is going to be overt.

 

[jweb22]

I think a better question is how many people would actually be upset if there gone? I think there adorable and all but I wouldn't miss them that much.

As someone that mains the Ice Climbers, I'd be very upset if they didn't return, but I'm confident in their return as the Polar Bear in Smash Run wouldn't make much sense if they were cut.

 

[Autumn ♫]

No Chrom?!! Do you play fire emblem? You said "some other FE character", which is why I asked... Although he said it was a wish roster.

I just find the idea of Chrom being playable unappealing, although I can understand why some would like him. I was just saying how I would change it, if it were my own wish roster.

It is going to be a sad day if Vaati is deconfirmed, I will literally feel sorry for you. Expect a PM when that time comes, I will write you a heartfelt letter.

Fix'd

Why are you so sure about Vaati?

I'm not as sure of him as I am others, such as Mewtwo and the sort, but I do find him the best choice for a Zelda newcomer, and his latest game was only 2 months before Ghirahim's, making him almost just as recent as him too.

 

[Floor]

Let's break down how the convo went down.

You: "It's either Ghirahim or Ganondorf, and judging on how things are going, Ganondorf might be the first re-occuring veteran to be cut. I don't know I don't think Ganondorf is this "obvious" choice like so many people are saying. I'd say it's about a 60%-40% with odds favoring Ganondorf."

Me: "....no.

It's either Ganondorf and Ghirahim or just Ganondorf.

Saying Ganondorf could be replaced by Ghirahim is like saying Fawful could replace Bowser."

You: "Not really...

The difference is that Fawful has no chance of making it... Not many people even know of him. Ghirahim, however, is taking in a big fanbase from the looks of it. His biggest set-back on his chances is the fact that the cap on representaion from a particular franchise is 5 (from what it looks like with Mario series). Using the logic about the 5 rep cap, Ghirahim has no room. If it were 6, Ghirahim would have a PRETTY likely shot at making it, where the next Mario repp would be Bowser Jr., or someone else who's not Fwaful.
But again, I'm only saying Ganondorf doesn't have a guarenteed place. It may be Very likly, but not guranteed."

Me: "It appears you don't quite get what the comparison is referring to.

You're saying that Ganondorf, a.k.a. Ganon, the most important villain in the entire scope of the Zelda franchise, is capable of being replaced by Ghirahim, a villain's lackey featured in one Zelda title to date (with said villain being essentially Ganon's origin).
That is quite comparable to saying Fawful, a villain's lackey featured in a Mario RPG (who, to his credit, is also the main villain in one of the sequels), is capable of replacing Bowser, the most important villain in the entire scope of the Mario franchise.

Do you not get how illogical that is?"

You: "Do you deny Ghirahim has a large fan base and following?"

Me: "That is irrelevant."

And I'll stop there, since what happened next was just you making a case about Ghirahim's chances and how it is relevant to the discussion, I point out how it's not what we were talking about, and now the post I'm quoting now.
Look at the very first post of our conversation. You weren't talking about Ghirahim's chances for Smash as a whole. You were talking about his chances directly compared to Ganondorf.
Which is what I responded to; you said it was "either Ghirahim or Ganondorf", I responded that it was false, and that it was either both or just Ganondorf while making a comparison that the idea of Ghirahim replacing Ganondorf is comparable to the concept of Fawful replacing Bowser.

Ghirahim's chances for Smash as a whole is irrelevant to the discussion, and you trying to force it into where it holds no meaning doesn't magically mean it is.
Like a smartass, you provide a link to Wikipedia about the word "relevant", yet I don't believe you bothered to actually read what it says.



The evaluation of Ghirahim's chances or his "RELEVANCE" as you put it (which is not what "relevance" is) is not something directly related, connected, or pertinent to the topic of the concept of Ganondorf being replaced by Ghirahim, the topic in which our conversation rests on. Thus it is irrelevant.
Instead, it's a Red Herring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring



If you seriously cannot grasp this by now after it's been thoroughly broken down, I question whether or not there is a disability at work here.

I asked "Do you deny Ghirahim has a large fan base and following?" becausee I was going to follow up with me providing my opinion on Ghirahim's chances vs. Ganondorf's that was relevant.

Quite simply...
Ghirahim's chances IS RELEVANT TO his relevance BECAUSE his relevance affects his chances in mine and quite a lot of other's opinions.

You weren't talking about Ghirahim's chances for Smash as a whole. You were talking about his chances directly compared to Ganondorf.

I was saying only one would make it, and I gave my precentages. I said there would be a 40% chance of Ghirahim. So, I was talking about his chances as a whole, because I believe they directly vary with Ganondorf, because I think only one will make it.

The evaluation of Ghirahim's chances or his "RELEVANCE" as you put it (which is not what "relevance" is) is not something directly related, connected, or pertinent to the topic of the concept of Ganondorf being replaced by Ghirahim,

In the context, yes, that is what RELEVANCE means. When you were reiterating Wikipedia, you convienantly left out something. It said....

it may also mean something that is current

Ghirahim IS current.

 

[Cpt.]

I really wouldn't like to see SoPo as his own character. Ice Climbers are one of the most unique character because of the fact that there are two of them. I don't even like to use Iceys, but hurting uniqueness is not something that I'm fond of.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Well looks like Jerry beat me to the explanation

Man, when that kind of stuff pops up you gotta jump on it!

I always enjoyed the notion that there were two though; if there is only one, the move-sets more inherent generic nature is going to be overt.

Yeah, definitely. A solo Popo isn't going to totally fly with me or many others. I mean, they got hammers and ice attacks, but that's it. Maybe Sakurai could give them a blizzard Final Smash, ice hammers, and dry ice jet boots. Hahaha.

 

[Will]

If the ICs do go solo,they better do something for a recovery. I don't know what the purpose of the individual IC recovery is.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Condor lift.

 

[Morbi]

I asked "Do you deny Ghirahim has a large fan base and following?" becausee I was going to follow up with me providing my opinion on Ghirahim's chances vs. Ganondorf's that was relevant.

Quite simply...
Ghirahim's chances IS RELEVANT TO his relevance BECAUSE his relevance affects his chances in mine and quite a lot of other's opinions.


I was saying only one would make it, and I gave my precentages. I said there would be a 40% chance of Ghirahim. So, I was talking about his chances as a whole, because I believe they directly vary with Ganondorf, because I think only one will make it.


In the context, yes, that is what RELEVANCE means. When you were reiterating Wikipedia, you convienantly left out something. It said....



Ghirahim IS current.

Relevance doesn't necessarily pertain to something that is current though, that definition is only applicable to Wikipedia. And to be fair, it did seem as though you were implying that there was a correlation between Ganondorf's chance and Ghirahim's chance.

 

[Curious Villager]

If the ICs do go solo,they better do something for a recovery. I don't know what the purpose of the individual IC recovery is.

Condor lift.

Yeah I guess they could get the condor as their new up special recovery. Perhaps you could even use it to charge right at your opponents.

 

[Cpt.]

Ghirahim IS current.

Ehhhhh. Less and less by the day, but yes he is current in terms of characters that came about during the post Brawl time. I don't like to think that characters can make it into Smash just because they are the "hipp new thang", but Greninja is still licking my tears from his reveal (haha Jk I like Greninja).

Still it boggles me to think that characters can make it in as a rep (to a heavily represented series) when only being in one game. Pokemon has sooo many options, Zelda too. I just feel like Sakurai makes poor choices with the series sometimes *hack cough keeping Jigglypuff, Lucario (well I guess not Lucario as much as some others), (now that I think about it) Sheik, and adding Greninja*. He really should just add characters that proved themselves to be Nintendo All-Stars >>>>> Charizard's inclusion was marvelous IMO.

EDIT: oh yeah and Mario

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Ghirahim is current and important because he was one of the main villains in the first chronological game in the series. Wouldn't mind him getting in at least just for this game.

Smash Bros. is about All-Stars, yes, but they gotta keep things up to date and maybe throw in a few surprises. That's probably the reason why they put Roy in Melee and Greninja in this one. Don't forget about the new Pokeball Pokemon from Gen IV-VI.

 

[Floor]

At this point, I feel like GoldenYuiitusin and I are straying from the thread a bit, and from the approval of any mods...

So about Ice Climbers... Condor life sounds like a great idea if it happened. Would it co straight up or diagonally?

@Cpt.
True. Sakurai's mind must use similar logic as a Pokemon game

 

[Bowserlick]

I already solved the Ice Climber problem by having them attached to each other with a bungee cord. Separate weights for each individual (do not have to be equal) yet combined together on stretchy string.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Ghirahim is current and important because he was one of the main villains in the first chronological game in the series.

That makes about as much sense as Demon King Malladus being important and recent because he's the main villain of one of the last Zelda games in chronological order...

 

[Cpt.]

Ghirahim is current and important because he was one of the main villains in the first chronological game in the series. Wouldn't mind him getting in at least just for this game.

Smash Bros. is about All-Stars, yes, but they gotta keep things up to date and maybe throw in a few surprises. That's probably the reason why the put Roy in Melee and Greninja in this one. Don't forget about the new Pokeball Pokemon from Gen IV-VI.

Yeah I don't like the fact that Smash tries to keep things up-to-date. It's fine in some regards, but not others (adding in Lucario, but not takiing Jiggs away). It's more important that it sticks to the important Nintendo characters than adding in every new villain/starter poke. At the same time it is important that if they do add in a cycle of corroding relevant character that they make sure to take them out once they aren't relevant anymore (Roy).

 

[protato]

I already solved the Ice Climber problem by having them attached to each other with a bungee cord. Separate weights for each individual (do not have to be equal) yet combined together on stretchy string.

bahahaha i just imagine one getting ko'd and them flipping off the stage as the camera flips out because its locked on to sopo
i dont know why i think thats so funny

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

So about Ice Climbers... Condor life sounds like a great idea if it happened. Would it co straight up or diagonally?

I'd like to say it could pull a Meta Knight-esque Shuttle Loop and end with a glide. But some vertical flapping action, with any horizontal direction controlled by the player, would be sensible.

That makes about as much sense as Demon King Malladus being important and recent because he's the main villain of one of the last Zelda games in chronological order...

Not really. Also keep in mind there are three branches in the Zelda timeline. Ghirahim is associated with the beginnings of The Legend of Zelda and such. He's constantly taunting Link throughout the entire game. He's one Skyward Sword Link's first big enemies. Heck, he worked with Demise, and he's his sword, up until his demise. And Demise declares the whole evil-constantly-being-reincarnated thing. How could that not be of significance?

 

[Glyphoscythe]

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other in regards to the Ice Climbers (a.k.a. the Asexual Canadians), but I would like to see their icy moves buffed. Like that ice breath move, it seems kinda useless to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't play as the Canadians much. Forgive me. Condor lift sounds great for a new up b though.

 

[Cpt.]

I'd like to say it could pull a Meta Knight-esque Shuttle Loop and end with a glide. But some vertical flapping action, with any horizontal direction controlled by the player, would be most plausible.

That just shouldn't happen. Not because it wouldn't be cool, but because that just doesn't make sense with the thing carrying Popo. He is small, but he's got weight.

Not really. Ghirahim is associated with the beginnings of The Legend of Zelda and such. He's constantly taunting Link throughout the entire game. He's one Skyward Sword Link's first big enemies. Heck, he worked with Demise, and he's his sword, up until his demise. And Demise declares the whole evil-constantly-being-reincarnated thing. How could that not be of significance?

I think the evil forever thing refers to his evil living forever, not Ghirahims.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Not really. Ghirahim is associated with the beginnings of The Legend of Zelda and such. He's constantly taunting Link throughout the entire game. He's one Skyward Sword Link's first big enemies. Heck, he worked with Demise, and he's his sword, up until his demise. And Demise declares the whole evil-constantly-being-reincarnated thing. How could that not be of significance?

I don't see how this helps him be any more likely to be in Smash. (Even if he is infinitely more likely than Malladus.)

 

[Will]

Smash Bros. is about All-Stars, yes, but they gotta keep things up to date

What? I can't hear you over Mr.Game and Watch and R.O.B.

 

[Morbi]

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other in regards to the Ice Climbers (a.k.a. the Asexual Canadians), but I would like to see their icy moves buffed. Like that ice breath move, it seems kinda useless to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't play as the Canadians much. Forgive me. Condor lift sounds great for a new up b though.

I honestly thought that the Ice Breath was one of their better moves... I could be wrong though, I don't play them much either.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

That just shouldn't happen. Not because it wouldn't be cool, but because that just doesn't make sense with the thing carrying Popo. He is small, but he's got weight.

I think the evil forever thing refers to his evil living forever, not Ghirahims.

I was talking about Demise. His evil lives on in the form of Ganon/dorf, and sometimes not Ganon/dorf.

Also the Condor carries Popo and Nana in their on-screen appearance in Brawl.

I don't see how this helps him be any more likely to be in Smash. (Even if he is infinitely more likely than Malladus.)

It could, maybe, never said anything definitive. Im just stating reasons of how he could be significant and therefore maybe a bit more likely to appear in Smash. Marth is in, and he's only been in two games (save for his Awakening re-appearance but I wouldn't count that), but the first game he was in was also the first Fire Emblem game, and Fire Emblem games mostly have entirely different characters in every game.

What? I can't hear you over Mr.Game and Watch and R.O.B.

"Up to date" does not exactly mean "refusing to acknowledge the past."

 

[Cpt.]

I was talking about Demise. His evil lives on in the form of Ganondorf, and sometimes not Ganondorf.

Also the Condor carries Popo and Nana in their on-screen appearance in Brawl."

I wouldn't be against the condor, just the flips and sh*t.

I honestly thought that the Ice Breath was one of their better moves... I could be wrong though, I don't play them much either.

Huh that's weird I never though it was good and I didn't really use them. I guess nobody really knows if it is good?

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Haha well, of course. I could see him doing a Cyper or Winged Pikmin-esque lift just as much.

 

[Opossum]

You mean Blizzard? That's one of their better moves, actually. The Ice Climbers actually have a really great Special set, in which all four have legitimate uses.

Their Down Air, however...

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Down air could/should match Dedede's spinning drilling-ness, albeit with less power, obviously, thanks to their size and consequential capacity for dealing high damage.

 

[Louie G.]

I would like Ice Climbers to get the Condor as their recovery even without SoPo.
Because then it ties in better with my idea of the two being connected and programmed as one character, but looking like two separate ones.

 

[Kenith]

If Popo really does end up being solo, I hope they change his title to "The Last Ice Climber".
And give him a tragic backstory explaining how he lost Nana.