Character Discussion Thread

[9Volt]

Like Wii Fit Trainer, right?

No wii fit is a char, without personality but a char.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Hey guys, if I may ask, do you think Grovile could work as a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon rep, as I've been thinking about a Grass starter that could represent the 3rd gen, and I believe Grovile would be the best choice out of the 3.

 

[Croph]

You're right, the "official poll" is a bit of a misnoner on my part. Sometimes people refer to the aggregation of the most requested characters Sakurai received in the pre-Brawl suggestions submitted for the game as a "poll" but there was really no cut-and-dry poll. It's not like there were a certain amount of choices given. Sakurai just opened himself up to suggestion via the site, and all we know about it is Sonic was number one.

Some of the suggestions sent in were posted on the site, and people combed through them, listed the characters most mentioned as those that "topped the poll", but they weren't working with full info anyway. As it stands, there were most requested characters (we don't know who placed where other than Sonic - though Mega Man apparently was the second highest request 3rd party), but yeah, no actual poll, and no full results known, unlike with Melee's results. In true Sakurai style, he had already chosen the roster bar Sonic anyway...

So the style Hotfeet described did sound like what happened pre-Brawl, but... Lucas's placing was never revealed.
My mistake though, I got caught up in inaccurate colloquialisms.

Thanks for the clarification, and no problem.

I was just going to say, going by this we technically don't know Lucas' placement. We could speculate that he may of been a popular request due to Mother 3 out or perhaps he wasn't (but it would make sense anyway if Lucas was popular). Maybe Sakurai wanted to add him as he had some blueprints/ideas from Melee (when he wanted to replace Ness with Mother 3's protag, which we know is Lucas). Perhaps he wanted to revisit the idea as Mother 3 finally came out? Or maybe a combination? Who knows...

 

[False Sense]

No wii fit is a char, without personality but a char.

...So what defines a character?

 

[N3ON]

Chances aren't actually a thing, it's more so an illusion so people can have some sort of expectation. You can't actually guarantee what is actually likely, then pin down anything that supposedly isn't. If you do that you're just going to get yourself punched in the face, like the Ridley fans who were so hopeful.

If there were absolutely no indicators to follow which has gotten characters included in the past, I'd agree, but we see the type of inclusions previously made and the reasoning for some of them; if characters in the future stand out in those qualities which Sakurai tends to lean towards, their chances are usually greater than some character with absolutely nothing going for them. Just because not all characters follow this archetype doesn't mean so few do the whole idea can be discarded. Ofc chances aren't quantifiable in this situation, in part because chance itself is dealing with hypothetical outcomes, and there are too many variables and deviations with Sakurai, but if there was no such thing as higher or lower chances, people would predict characters at random instead of based on the qualities which strengthen the argument towards their inclusion - it increases their chances that Sakurai will pick them. No one is saying they are foolproof, that's not what the word implies anyway.

What is so fallacious about saying characters who exemplify qualities Sakurai has previously sought after have better chances of being included than characters with really nothing going for them? No one is saying character x will get in while character y doesn't in that statement, they are just saying character x had more in their favour, therefore better chances. The only people getting punched in the face are those who move beyond chance to certainty, or those that convince themselves the chance of omission is infinitesimally small. Chance obviously indicates there is room for being wrong.

I think you're assuming chance necessitates some sort of exact quantification to go along with it. Not always. But that doesn't mean it's nonexistent.

 

[Hotfeet444]

No wii fit is a char, without personality but a char.

Wii Fit Trainer has personality...she's a determined go-getter to stay in shape and help others....if she is not K.Rool's rival I'll be pretty upset. Besides, what exactly defines personality? Game & Watch has tons of personality, yet all he does is beep. And we've seen that ROB also has a personality...why? BECAUSE HE'S ALIVE!

 

[Andinus]

Oh this quote...the quote that lead to many assume the roster would stick at 35 (39) characters. Anyways, if it comes to quality, no other character does what ROB does, so that's already an advantage. That, and he's a representation of the accessories of early Nintendo that were quite a success, nobody else is threatening his spot, and nobody else can take that spot.

I'm sorry, have you presented any counter evidence to show sakurai no longer feels this way? You can hope and dream all you want, but at least I'm basing my current opinions on something factual that was said. Honestly if he had not said this I'd be on you side and assume the roster would jump by at least 10 people, but he said it and until I'm lead to believe otherwise I'm sticking to my guess of a roster of 42 or less.

 

[9Volt]

...So what defines a character?

Wii Fit Trainer is a char that helps you and teach how to "play" wii fit. They are part wii fit universe. They can not be separeted of this universe.
Miis are a gameplay ideia to create a avatar so you can see you and your family inside the games.
Miiis are on Mario Galaxy and they are not a mario char for example.

 

[Muster]

What does that have to do with GamesRadar being wrong about predicting ROB being cut?

Because if Rob isn't revealed before then we'll just see him in the roster and have the last laugh.
Edit: Greninja'd

2nd, Um...You do know I had other points right? Why didn't you acknowledge them? I kinda worked hard on them...I wanted your opinion on it. i'm sad...

3rd, Excuse me? Fine. Name them. I want to see these so called stolen move. Provide the evidence.

4th, Going back to the 2nd point, what does this have to do with my any of my argument? I was trying to say that even characters like Wolf, who are said to stay because he is more unique then Falco, would be more likely cut than Jigglypuff simply because he hasn't been in that many smash games and that Sakurai is willing to cut unique characters. As in just because a character is unique, doesn't make them any safer than another character.

I doubt the likelihood of Jiggs being cut because of her basically being a modified Kirby. Sakurai pretty much just has to take the puffball, change some ligaments around, throw in some old moves, and jack up the air speed. Worst comes to worst and they can just throw her in as DLC later.
Jigglypuff is pretty much one of the lowest maintenance characters in smash, and she's pretty awesome too.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

He's saying that once we get the 3DS version, we'll be able to determine R.O.B.'s fate, and likewise his fate in the Wii U version.

We could also take a peek in the Player's Guide when the game comes out

 

[Hotfeet444]

I'm sorry, have you presented any counter evidence to show sakurai no longer feels this way? You can hope and dream all you want, but at least I'm basing my current opinions on something factual that was said. Honestly if he had not said this I'd be on you side and assume the roster would jump by at least 10 people, but he said it and until I'm lead to believe otherwise I'm sticking to my guess of a roster of 42 or less.

I don't think going off of statements from a man who's very known for changing his mind is that reliable. What's better to go off of is his ideals and thoughts through what's been posted during this game's development, and ROB is basically untouched at this point and literally has nothing negative going for him right now. Also, if you're going to stick to statements...we should all remove Villager from our rosters because he was once deemed too peaceful to get into Smash Bros by Sakurai.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I'm sorry, have you presented any counter evidence to show sakurai no longer feels this way? You can hope and dream all you want, but at least I'm basing my current opinions on something factual that was said. Honestly if he had not said this I'd be on you side and assume the roster would jump by at least 10 people, but he said it and until I'm lead to believe otherwise I'm sticking to my guess of a roster of 42 or less.

Only he didn't blatantly say "I'm not going up to 50 characters". He said that the game isn't about getting up to 50 characters and that's it. He's looking for good newcomers and a balanced, diverse roster. Does this mean we'll only get around Brawl's roster? Absolutely not. Look at what he explicitly said, not what you think he meant.

And as Hotfeet said, he has changed his mind before. Like he said, look at VIllager.

 

[9Volt]

Wii Fit Trainer has personality...she's a determined go-getter to stay in shape and help others....if she is not K.Rool's rival I'll be pretty upset. Besides, what exactly defines personality? Game & Watch has tons of personality, yet all he does is beep. And we've seen that ROB also has a personality...why? BECAUSE HE'S ALIVE!

Ok sry if I offended the char you like, never played wii fit, was not my intention. But kind looks like that way.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Ok sry if I offended the char you like, never played wii fit, was not my intention. But kind looks like that way.

I've never played Wii-Fit. But still, the question is...what defines a personality? Mario's happy-go-lucky and heroic, yet everyone says he's a character almost completely devoid of personality.

 

[N3ON]

Thanks for the clarification, and no problem.

I was just going to say, going by this we technically don't know Lucas' placement. We could speculate that he may of been a popular request due to Mother 3 out or perhaps he wasn't (but it would make sense anyway if Lucas was popular). Maybe Sakurai wanted to add him as he had some blueprints/ideas from Melee (when he wanted to replace Ness with Mother 3's protag, which we know is Lucas). Perhaps he wanted to revisit the idea as Mother 3 finally came out? Or maybe a combination? Who knows...

My guess is his inclusion would stem from Sakurai wanting to include him since Melee, with the popularity he had around then (even if only in Japan - and even if we don't know exactly where he stood in the results) strengthening Sakurai's resolve. I mean, Sakurai did include him before he got the popularity results on the site and before Mother 3 even came out.

 

[Andinus]

Only he didn't blatantly say "I'm not going up to 50 characters". He said that the game isn't about getting up to 50 characters and that's it. He's looking for good newcomers and a balanced, diverse roster. Does this mean we'll only get around Brawl's roster? Absolutely not. Look at what he explicitly said, not what you think he meant.

And as Hotfeet said, he has changed his mind before. Like he said, look at VIllager.

Umm read the quote again, he explicitly said he thinks that we have reached the limits of what is feasible.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

...So what defines a character?

a printed or written letter or symbol.

 

[9Volt]

I've never played Wii-Fit. But still, the question is...what defines a personality? Mario's happy-go-lucky and heroic, yet everyone says he's a character almost completely devoid of personality.

I don´t know and don´t care, what matter is what make a char or gameplay ideia. And already answered that on this page.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Because if Rob isn't revealed before then we'll just see him in the roster and have the last laugh.
Edit: Greninja'd

I doubt the likelihood of Jiggs being cut because of her basically being a modified Kirby. Sakurai pretty much just has to take the puffball, change some ligaments around, throw in some old moves, and jack up the air speed. Worst comes to worst and they can just throw her in as DLC later. Jigglypuff is pretty much one of the lowest maintenance characters in smash.

Wait What? No! You got it all wrong. I'm defending Jigglypuff. I had this entire post a couple pages back that explained my reasoning to why Jigglypuff has a very low chance of getting cut compared to the other characters.

Yeah, you basically covered it all. And also the neutral Air, forward tilt, down tilt and up tilt.

No, that didn't. Why do you keep ignoring me? I keep presenting arguments and you just brush me aside. Seriously, I want answers.

And so what? The fact of the matter is that Jigglypuff uses these moves then Kirby. Jigglypuff has an excellent air game while Kirby, (from what I can gather), is more all around. It doesn't matter that she shares the moves. Just like characters like Wolf she uses them in a different way to make her unique.

And please, don't just respond to that paragraph above. You still have two other posts worth of explaining to do. I want answers for crying out loud.

 

[NickerBocker]

Umm read the quote again, he explicitly said he thinks that we have reached the limits of what is feasible.

So if the limit is indeed 39 characters, or 42 as you are predicting, how is keeping "cuts limited" possible if were getting so many newcomers?

It doesn't work out mathematically, unless there is 5+ more cuts we dont know about. I can only see a few more characters not coming back, but keeping the roster at 42 doesnt seem reasonable with all the newcomers were getting/have gotten thus far.

 

[False Sense]

Umm read the quote again, he explicitly said he thinks that we have reached the limits of what is feasible.

Mind you, that was back in 2012.

The quote's a bit dated.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Wait What? No! You got it all wrong. I'm defending Jigglypuff. I had this entire post a couple pages back that explained my reasoning to why Jigglypuff has a very low chance of getting cut compared to the other characters.


No, that didn't. Why do you keep ignoring me? I keep presenting arguments and you just brush me aside. Seriously, I want answers.

And so what? The fact of the matter is that Jigglypuff uses these moves then Kirby. Jigglypuff has an excellent air game while Kirby, (from what I can gather), is more all around. It doesn't matter that she shares the moves. Just like characters like Wolf she uses them in a different way to make her unique.

And please, don't just respond to that paragraph above. You still have two other posts worth of explaining to do. I want answers for crying out loud.

This is why I think Jigglypuff is a likely character to be cut, if there are more cuts. She is seen as a joke character, (not just by fans, but by Sakurai too) she was low priority in Brawl, the other Pokemon characters are probably higher priority than Jigglypuff, The Pokemon Company/Game Freak probably aren't going to be pushing for her to be in, she doesn't have any notable significance to the Pokemon series, she has a very bland moveset, she isn't nearly as popular as she used to be, she isn't all that relevant anymore, and she is disliked by many people. The bad points outweigh the good points, I mean if Sakurai could only chose between Jigglypuff and Wario do you really think Jigglypuff would be added over him just for the sake of tradition? She's never been cut before, but there's a first time for everything, things change.

 

[Muster]

Wait What? No! You got it all wrong. I'm defending Jigglypuff. I had this entire post a couple pages back that explained my reasoning to why Jigglypuff has a very low chance of getting cut compared to the other characters.

I know, that's just my perspective on the whole "Kirby move stealer" thing. The hardest part about adding Jiggs at this point is probably what to do with move customization (Helicopter Sing, anyone?)

I've never played Wii-Fit. But still, the question is...what defines a personality? Mario's happy-go-lucky and heroic, yet everyone says he's a character almost completely devoid of personality.

Wii fit Trainer is patient and encouraging, but (s)he gets pissed when you slack off (leave the Balance Board and sit down or something). The "Health Nut" personality is perfect for him/her.

 

[Hotfeet444]

No, that didn't. Why do you keep ignoring me? I keep presenting arguments and you just brush me aside. Seriously, I want answers.

And so what? The fact of the matter is that Jigglypuff uses these moves then Kirby. Jigglypuff has an excellent air game while Kirby, (from what I can gather), is more all around. It doesn't matter that she shares the moves. Just like characters like Wolf she uses them in a different way to make her unique.

And please, don't just respond to that paragraph above. You still have two other posts worth of explaining to do. I want answers for crying out loud.

If you want answers, then let me start with this...Jigglypuff is not untouchable, as much as some would wish to deny this. If Game Freak really is this hardcore about marketing and pushing the 6th Gen, then the ideal choice would be to use pokemon that they can market easily, Pikachu is a pokemon like that, Lucario is a pokemon like that, Charizard is a pokemon like that, hell, even Greninja is a pokemon like that. However, Jigglypuff has had little to no attention, even with her new part-typing. Mewtwo, however, is the polar opposite...he's literally all about Marketing.

It's the poster boy of 6th Gen, it led the headway for Mega Evolutions, and its most famous mega evolution is a counter to Charizard's X Evolution as well as being one of the world's most famous/popular pokemon of all-time. That, and when it comes down to it, Mewtwo will obviously be suggested by Game Freak and offers a completely unique playstyle that can be replayed and tweaked to any liking possible, but the fact stands that Mewtwo is definitely standing out this time around. Jigglypuff was saved in Brawl thanks to development time being scarce and she was simple to implement...however, we don't have another Sonic the Hedgehog to push development of certain characters back, and that easy development time may not be enough to save her. We know that the original 12 aren't untouchable thanks to the notion that Sakurai was planning to cut Ness in Melee, and although they can co-exist, this time may not be so lucky for Jigglypuff. All I can say is this...pray Pokemon keeps those six slots or Jigglypuff is sadly going to be cut.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Umm read the quote again, he explicitly said he thinks that we have reached the limits of what is feasible.

"In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible."

First of all, that's not an absolute at all. He's basically guessing. While it is not only out of date of what he thinks now, but we've never had Namco-Bandai work. And by the way it's looking, they are doing really well.

To be honest, there is one thing that excites everyone: the fighters. Sakurai said it himself in the Direct: "the one thing you've all been waiting for". Cutting 4-5 characters, then adding minimal newcomers, is a bad move, period. Sakurai must know this.

All I can say is this...pray Pokemon keeps those six slots or Jigglypuff is sadly going to be cut.

B-but... Original 12!

 

[Hotfeet444]

B-but... Original 12!

While I know you're joking, keep in mind that Mewtwo was part of what was initially going to be an Original 15.

 

[N3ON]

I'd say a better point against Jiggs' definite return is that she was on the chopping block in Brawl, so it's not like her chances are airtight. Ofc I do think that's the closest she'll ever get to being cut.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

While I know you're joking, keep in mind that Mewtwo was part of what was initially going to be an Original 15.

Yeah, it's interesting how he was planned to be in every Smash game.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Yeah, it's interesting how he was planned to be in every Smash game.

And he would have been in too...if it wasn't for the hardware limitations of the N64 and....Sonic.

 

[The Black mage]

And he would have been in too...if it wasn't for the hardware limitations of the N64 and....Sonic.

It all makes sense now...

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

And he would have been in too...if it wasn't for the hardware limitations of the N64 and....Sonic.

Yeah, to me it seems that the only reason Jigglypuff got in over Mewtwo in both games is because they had enough time to make her, but not enough time to make Mewtwo.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Regarding to the quote "In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible.", it's more so referring to the challenge of balancing a roster. Basically every fighter needs to be balanced, first implementing the original idea and then adjusting, replacing, and adding, until the character is right. Though it gets more complicated when you start adding other fighters, and then you have to reevaluate again to make sure one factor doesn't dominate the other. This basically continues and becomes more complex when the numbers keep growing. Hence why on a general scale, balancing a roster of 20 is easier then balancing a roster of 50, because when there are less fighters finding any gaps in the balance are easier to spot when there are less factors involve. Likewise, there's the classic quality over quantity factor. When there are less characters, the time and resources can be put into focusing on creating better fleshed out and original characters, with Arc Systems Works titles like Guilty Gear and BlazBlue in particular enforcing that sort of philosophy.

 

[The Black mage]

Regarding to the quote "In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible.", it's more so referring to the challenge of balancing a roster. Basically every fighting needs to be balanced, first implementing the original idea and then adjusting, replacing, and adding, until the character is right. Though it gets more complicated when you start adding other fighters, and then you have to reevaluate again to make sure one factor doesn't dominate the other. This basically continues and becomes more complex when the numbers keep growing. Hence why on a general scale, balancing a roster of 20 is easier then balancing a roster of 50, because when there are less fighters finding any gaps in the balance are easier to spot when there are less factors involve. Likewise, there's the classic quality over quantity factor. When there are less characters, the time and resources can be put into focusing on creating better fleshed out and original characters, with Arc Systems Works titles like Guilty Gear and BlazBlue in particular enforcing that sort of philosophy.

We are looking at you, Meta Knight.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

To me, the concept that there would be so many cuts to bring the roster to 42 characters would be detrimental to the roster. Sakurai hates cuts anyway, so I wouldn't expect enough to bring it down to only adding 3 more characters.

Logic dictates that would be a terrible move. Like, real bad.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Yeah, to me it seems that the only reason Jigglypuff got in over Mewtwo in both games is because they had enough time to make her, but not enough time to make Mewtwo.

In Brawl perhaps...but while Jigglypuff may have been easier to develop than Mewtwo in Smash 64, I'm pretty sure her undying Japanese fame back during said time was the reason she was put in over Mewtwo initially. And they did indeed have enough time to make Mewtwo in Smash 64, as well as Bowser and Dedede, but the hardware couldn't handle it so they had to be removed.

Which basically comes to the point that now Mewtwo has nothing in his way like before...why are people doubting a character that was planned since the very beginning of Smash Bros to be in every game in the franchise?

 

[Andinus]

So if the limit is indeed 39 characters, or 42 as you are predicting, how is keeping "cuts limited" possible if were getting so many newcomers?

It doesn't work out mathematically, unless there is 5+ more cuts we dont know about. I can only see a few more characters not coming back, but keeping the roster at 42 doesnt seem reasonable with all the newcomers were getting/have gotten thus far.

I'm predicting 5-6 cuts (Melee to brawl saw five) and from here on out I see 2-3 new comers if Lucas and Ike make it. It works out fine mathematically when you don't just assume x amount of new characters are a shoe-in. I'm just standing by what the creator of this game has said, and has not said anything to make us believe otherwise.

 

[IsmaR]

It wouldn't be just "adding 3 characters." Unless Brawl's roster count is now thought of as "just adding 14 characters" to Melee's.

 

[Andinus]

"In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible."

First of all, that's not an absolute at all. He's basically guessing. While it is not only out of date of what he thinks now, but we've never had Namco-Bandai work. And by the way it's looking, they are doing really well.

To be honest, there is one thing that excites everyone: the fighters. Sakurai said it himself in the Direct: "the one thing you've all been waiting for". Cutting 4-5 characters, then adding minimal newcomers, is a bad move, period. Sakurai must know this.

B-but... Original 12!

Umm the only thing we know for sure that sakurai knows is that we have reached the limits of what is feasible given balancing issues. I'm not exactly sure how the passage of time affects the reality that more characters equals exponentially difficult balancing issues, so unless there is something to indicate sakurai has thrown up his hands with game balance, your guess on roster size seems over inflated and based more firmly in hope than evidence.

 

[Scamper52596]

After all is said and done, how many characters does everyone think are going to be kept under wraps until we buy the game to unlock said characters?

 

[The Black mage]

After all is said and done, how many characters does everyone think are going to be kept under wraps until we buy the game to unlock said characters?

I am estimating around 3 to 5 characters.