Character Discussion Thread

[Arcadenik]

No Snake = no Sonic in Brawl
No Snake = no Mega Man in SSB4
No Snake = no Pac-Man in SSB4

Yeah, you can thank Snake that Pac-Man is now a possibility.

 

[ChikoLad]

Although Sonic was a late addition and was not part of the initial design documents for Brawl, I'm pretty sure this has more to do with the negotiations being complicated than anything else.

Brawl started development in 2005/2006, IIRC. Yuji Naka, the creator of Sonic and then producer of the series (I think, might be mixed up), who came close to getting Sonic into Melee, left Sonic Team around this time period, during the development of Sonic '06. Yuji Naka didn't own Sonic from that point on. Meaning that around the time Brawl was first being conceived, ownership of the Sonic trademark was being re-arranged, as well as staff at Sonic Team and Sega. This is probably why Sonic was such a late inclusion. I heard that Sonic was actually implemented into the game before that one poll was even posted, but that poll was made out of curiosity, and to maybe get a third party besides Sonic. But yeah, Sakurai probably had a lot of difficulty because things at Sonic Team and Sega were kinda hairy at this time.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

The 20-char roster post made me think:

If a Smash Bros game had only 20 characters (and by that I mean slots), which ones would you choose?

Maybe a better question would be: What would you have wanted Melee's roster to be, assuming it only had 20 slots?

Mine:

Game & Watch and/or Ness can be swapped for Diddy Dong or someone else.

I don't like cutting characters, but Meowth would've undoubtedly been a better choice than Jiggylpuff, assuming only one of the two could be chosen.

...I-Is it okay to talk about stuff like this despite the change from "roster prediction thread" to "character discussion thread"?

Edit: Samus doesn't actually include Zero Suit (the design from Zero Mission didn't exist in Melee's time), and I know Zelda and Sheik are two characters, but they are in one slot.
-----

 

[BKupa666]

He might have made it into SSB4 regardless with all the other stuff that happened prior, like all the Mario & Sonic Olympic Games and the Nintendo-exclusive Sonic titles.

It could've happened eventually, just like how Goku might happen eventually once the pool of quality newcomers grows too small, but there wouldn't have been this intense upsurge of Sonic support to the point where the game had to be delayed and two veterans had to be cut (according to theory) to get him in now.

Also, while Diddy and Dedede are both important characters who should be in rosters around 20 characters large, there should never be any roster featuring Dedede, but not Diddy. Diddy's way too important for that to happen in a game developed by anyone other than "fair and balanced" Sakurai.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Smash could've survived without Sonic. I was sooooo hyped about Sonic's inclusion, but at the same time...I would be fine if SSB was just Nintendo characters.

Sonic was mainly a bonus, not the entire package.

A thing people seem to forget that there is hardly any necessary characters (arguably only Mario, Link, Samus, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, and Kirby), every inclusion should be treated as more so a bonus. Naturally this should be considered into many characters, that you shouldn't focus on a character that is obliged by some imaginary criteria but rather what he or she can add to the atmosphere to the game. This is not only a fundamental philosophy to Super Smash Bros., but it should also be considered for varies other crossovers.

 

[ChikoLad]

It could've happened eventually, just like how Goku might happen eventually once the pool of quality newcomers grows too small, but there wouldn't have been this intense upsurge of Sonic support to the point where the game had to be delayed and two veterans had to be cut (according to theory) to get him in now.

Sonic was in demand since Melee, and nearly made it in, according to Yuji Naka. He's statistically the most requested character in Smash history, and was for quite some time before he made it to Brawl.

 

[BKupa666]

Sonic was in demand since Melee, and nearly made it in, according to Yuji Naka. He's statistically the most requested character in Smash history, and was for quite some time before he made it to Brawl.

I'd like to see a source on that "nearly made it in" bit. I don't deny that a contingent of fans wanted Sonic in Smash since Melee, especially what with that "You can unlock Sonic in Melee!" prank by that one magazine fueling the fire, but I don't believe he was THE most requested character in Smash history before Snake was revealed. That probably would have gone to, say, Bowser before Melee, judging by Sakurai's poll.

 

[Pacack]

The 20-char roster post made me think:

If a Smash Bros game had only 20 characters (and by that I mean slots), which ones would you choose?

Maybe a better question would be: What would you have wanted Melee's roster to be, assuming it only had 20 slots?

Mine:
View attachment 10838
Game & Watch and/or Ness can be swapped for Diddy Dong or someone else.

I don't like cutting characters, but Meowth would've undoubtedly been a better choice than Jiggylpuff, assuming only one of the two could be chosen.

...I-Is it okay to talk about stuff like this despite the change from "roster prediction thread" to "character discussion thread"?

-----

*Melee's roster is exactly 20 characters. Zelda and Sheik are not counted as one.

 

[?????????????]

What would you have wanted Melee's roster to be, assuming it only had 20 slots?

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Donkey Kong
6. Yoshi
7. Wario
8. Link
9. Zelda
10. Ganondorf
11. Samus
12. Kirby
13. Fox
14. Captain Falcon
15. Ness
16. Pikachu
17. Meowth
18. Mewtwo
19. Marth
20. Little Mac

 

[ChikoLad]

I'd like to see a source on that "nearly made it in" bit. I don't deny that a contingent of fans wanted Sonic in Smash since Melee, especially what with that "You can unlock Sonic in Melee!" prank by that one magazine, but I don't believe he was THE most requested character in Smash history before Snake was revealed. That probably would have gone to, say, Bowser before Melee, judging by Sakurai's poll.

The information comes from an interview with Yuji Naka in a 2005 issue of Edge Magazine, where Yuji Naka states "It was very close, but time constraints didn't allow us to continue with the idea".

I literally cannot dig up said article, but that is the exact quote from Yuji Naka.

 

[?????????????]

The information comes from an interview with Yuji Naka in a 2005 issue of Edge Magazine, where Yuji Naka states "It was very close, but time constraints didn't allow us to continue with the idea".

I literally cannot dig up said article, but that is the exact quote from Yuji Naka.

It's true he said "time constraints didn't allow us to continue with the idea," but there was nothing about it being "very close."


Never mind I was wrong.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

What would you have wanted Melee's roster to be, assuming it only had 20 slots

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser

Link, Zelda/Sheik, Ganondorf

Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Wario

Pikachu, Mewtwo

Kirby, King Dedede

Fox

Samus, Ridley

Captain Falcon

Ness

Marth

 

[Croph]

The information comes from an interview with Yuji Naka in a 2005 issue of Edge Magazine, where Yuji Naka states "It was very close, but time constraints didn't allow us to continue with the idea".

I literally cannot dig up said article, but that is the exact quote from Yuji Naka.

Is it this? http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4451/sonicinmeleeis4.jpg

Kinda small to read, but it does mention Yuji Naka wanted Sonic in Melee, but couldn't due to time restraints.

 

[Sonicshuffle]

The 20-char roster post made me think:

If a Smash Bros game had only 20 characters (and by that I mean slots), which ones would you choose?

Maybe a better question would be: What would you have wanted Melee's roster to be, assuming it only had 20 slots?

Mine:
View attachment 10838
Game & Watch and/or Ness can be swapped for Diddy Dong or someone else.

I don't like cutting characters, but Meowth would've undoubtedly been a better choice than Jiggylpuff, assuming only one of the two could be chosen.

...I-Is it okay to talk about stuff like this despite the change from "roster prediction thread" to "character discussion thread"?

-----

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Wario
4. Waluigi
5. Peach
6. Daisy
7. Rosalina
8. Bowser
9. Bowser Jr.
10. Yoshi
11. Toad
12. Goomba
13. Koopa
14. Bullet Bill
15. Birdo
16. Boo
17. Hammer Bros.
18. Toadette
19. Kamek
20. Shiny Bidoof

 

[Opossum]

@ False Sense
Whatever!

I'm going to ask you to stop making posts like this. The passive-aggressive attitude needs to stop, as you're not being pleasant with posts like this.

 

[BKupa666]

The information comes from an interview with Yuji Naka in a 2005 issue of Edge Magazine, where Yuji Naka states "It was very close, but time constraints didn't allow us to continue with the idea".

I literally cannot dig up said article, but that is the exact quote from Yuji Naka.

If that is indeed true, I'm curious why Sakurai followed through on adding Snake into Brawl with no hesitation (another character Kojima confirmed Sakurai could not include in Melee due to time constraints), but it took Sonic topping a Smash popularity poll to be added, despite Naka's comment about it being "very close" the previous game. Perhaps Sakurai isn't as close friends with Naka as he is with Kojima, and thus Sonic was, up until Summer 2007, just a casualty of his favoritism?

 

[Deleted member]

The 20-char roster post made me think:

If a Smash Bros game had only 20 characters (and by that I mean slots), which ones would you choose?

Maybe a better question would be: What would you have wanted Melee's roster to be, assuming it only had 20 slots?

Mine:
View attachment 10838
Game & Watch and/or Ness can be swapped for Diddy Dong or someone else.

I don't like cutting characters, but Meowth would've undoubtedly been a better choice than Jiggylpuff, assuming only one of the two could be chosen.

...I-Is it okay to talk about stuff like this despite the change from "roster prediction thread" to "character discussion thread"?

-----

Good list and I'd largely agree on the selections. I'd replace Yoshi with Peach and Zelda with Ganondorf, but that's about all. I'd also get rid of ZSS as that's probably cheating, to have two characters in one slot that don't even share the same moveset like Zelda/Sheik,

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I'm going to ask you to stop making posts like this. The passive-aggressive attitude needs to stop, as you're not being pleasant with posts like this.

Oh, sorry. I went back and changed that post after reading this.

 

[False Sense]

@ False Sense
You keep saying that!

You mean Mewtwo? I suppose so. What about it?

 

[FlareHabanero]

If that is indeed true, I'm curious why Sakurai followed through on adding Snake into Brawl with no hesitation (another character Kojima confirmed Sakurai could not include in Melee due to time constraints), but it took Sonic topping a Smash popularity poll to be added, despite Naka's comment about it being "very close" the previous game. Perhaps Sakurai isn't as close friends with Naka as he is with Kojima, and thus Sonic was, up until Summer 2007, just a casualty of his favoritism?

I'd speculate why Sonic wasn't added as soon as possible is that Naka's request was either much more passive compared to Kojima's, or it wasn't brought up again during the development of Brawl and Sonic was overlooked because of it. Also, having a reluctance on adding third party characters to begin with might also be a barrier.

 

[Sonic Poke]

Every single character in Brawl are unique I think. Melee added the only real clones in Smash. Falco, Roy, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link and Ganondorf. Unecesary clones were cut, and the nescesary ones were luigificated.
There's no reason to cut Falco. Just saying, I think that Falco and Ganondorf, will be totaly decloned in SSB4.
Why the people say that Falco, Ganon, Wolf and Lucas are clones? Because of the specials. When you test for the first time a character, what do you see first, the standards or the specials? The specials, off course. The first impression that you have when you use this kind of character, is that the character is a clone, even if they have standards totally different. It occour with Wolf, Falco and Lucas.
Why does nobody say that SSB64's Jiggly is a Kirby clone even with almost identical standards? Because of her specials.
Changed the specials is how I think that the sets will be. Manly with Ganondorf, Wolf and Lucas, for the last two, both are really important in their games, cut a villain and a protagonist? Please, no.
Being a clone no more justify a cut. We must see how the character is important in nowadays, or how it was important in the past.
ROB, Ike, and Snake, crying with tears, are the only characters that I would understand the cut.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

You mean Mewtwo? I suppose so. What about it?

Well, let me put it to you this way, Brawl was loaded with Newcomers who were far more iconic, memorable, and recognizable than Mewtwo. Among them, Sonic, King DeDeDe, and Diddy Kong are confirmed to return.

 

[ChikoLad]

If that is indeed true, I'm curious why Sakurai followed through on adding Snake into Brawl with no hesitation (another character Kojima confirmed Sakurai could not include in Melee due to time constraints), but it took Sonic topping a Smash popularity poll to be added, despite Naka's comment about it being "very close" the previous game. Perhaps Sakurai isn't as close friends with Naka as he is with Kojima, and thus Sonic was, up until Summer 2007, just a casualty of his favoritism?

As I already explained earlier, Yuji Naka left Sonic Team when Brawl was starting development. He had no say in what happens to Sonic in anyway from that point on. Whereas Kojima still owned Snake. Snake nearly didn't make it into Brawl, though, according to Kojima. Nintendo were opposed to it, but Sakurai's determination pulled through.

 

[False Sense]

Well, let me put it to you this way, Brawl was loaded with Newcomers who were far more iconic, memorable, and recognizable than Mewtwo. Among them, Sonic, King DeDeDe, and Diddy Kong are confirmed to return.

Well, I think its debatable that all those characters are more iconic than Mewtwo. Not saying that Mewtwo is above them, but I'd say that he's at least up there with them. It's still terrible that he was left out of Brawl.

 

[CalumG]

I imagine Sonic's situation in Brawl was probably worsened by the shambles SEGA was in at the time.

Naka had just left Sonic Team and taken a good chunk of the team with him to form Prope, alot of SEGA-owned studios were disappearing or being merged with others between the 2004-2007 period, and 2006 was, if I'm not mistaken, a poor fiscal year with a giant loss of net profit compared to the year before. Sonic himself was going through an identity crisis (given the quality of his then-recent games) and I'm going out on a limb here but quite frankly I wouldn't have been surprised if the abysmal quality of the then-recent games in the series caused some higher ups beyond Sakurai to be skeptical regarding Sonic's opportunity to be in Smash.

I guess in the end we'll never know why Sonic was added so late in the game (especially if Naka had spoken to Sakurai about it in the Melee days), but Japanese corporate relations isn't exactly any Smashers strong point. Either way, I'm sure there were a multitude of reasons why Sonic's inclusion in Brawl was so muddled up and late, beyond the cop-out excuse of "Sakurai just liked Snake more".

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Well, I think its debatable that all those characters are more iconic than Mewtwo. Not saying that Mewtwo is above them, but I'd say that he's at least up there with them. It's still terrible that he was left out of Brawl.

I will admit, I too was highly dissapointed about Mewtwo being cut, but that never made me hate the Brawl. Sonic made sure of that.

 

[False Sense]

I will admit, I too was highly dissapointed about Mewtwo being cut, but that never made me hate Sonic.

Well, yeah, I was quite happy to see Sonic in Brawl too.

...Out of curiosity, is there really a point to this conversation? It doesn't seem like we're going anywhere specific with this.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Well, yeah, I was quite happy to see Sonic in Brawl too.

...Out of curiosity, is there really a point to this conversation? It doesn't seem like we're going anywhere specific with this.

Well, maybe just to point out us being mutual fans of both Sonic and Mewtwo, other than that maybe not.

 

[Myuutsufan4832]

I will admit, I too was highly dissapointed about Mewtwo being cut

Well to be honest he wasn't really cut. Since hackers found his data in the disk.

 

[False Sense]

Well to be honest he wasn't really cut. Since hackers found his data in the disk.

If we weren't able to actually play as him in Brawl, I would consider that cut.

 

[samoxnar]

Well to be honest he wasn't really cut. Since hackers found his data in the disk.

It's thought he was removed due to a high fan demand of getting him out, then everyone was sad and changed their minds.

 

[Myuutsufan4832]

It's thought he was removed due to a high fan demand of getting him out, then everyone was sad and changed their minds.

Really? Somehow I don't remember that.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Well to be honest he wasn't really cut. Since hackers found his data in the disk.

Toon Sheik confirmed for Brawl.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Toon Sheik confirmed for Brawl.

Toon Sheik confirmed for our third 3rd party character in Brawl.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's thought he was removed due to a high fan demand of getting him out, then everyone was sad and changed their minds.

Source please?

 

[UltimateWario]

It's thought he was removed due to a high fan demand of getting him out, then everyone was sad and changed their minds.

This sounds like an immense load of bull.

I wasn't around for Brawl speculation, but I highly doubt that there were many championing the idea that a completely unique and interesting character be cut, especially because "he sux" of all things. Might as well start wanting Ganondorf, Bowser, Link, Sonic, etc. to be cut, as well.

EDIT: Apparently there were assholes stupid enough to do that sort of thing. It blows my mind how stupid people can be.

 

[?????????????]

Really? Somehow I don't remember that.

Source please?

This sounds like an immense load of bull.

I wasn't around for Brawl speculation, but I highly doubt that there were many championing the idea that a completely unique and interesting character be cut, especially because "he sux" of all things. Might as well start wanting Ganondorf, Bowser, Link, Sonic, etc. to be cut, as well.

As far as I know, there's no direct evidence that this is the reason Mewtwo was cut.

However, what is true is that there were fairly large internet organizations lobbying for Mewtwo to be cut from SSB because of his low tier rating.

 

[Deleted member]

It could've happened eventually, just like how Goku might happen eventually once the pool of quality newcomers grows too small

Strangely enough, I'm seeing Darth Vader being more of a probability than Goku at this point (Not that either are at all likely).
Sakurai did take influence from the Star Wars franchise when he made the Beam Sword, after all.

 

[UltimateWario]

However, what is true is that there were fairly large internet organizations lobbying for Mewtwo to be cut from SSB because of his low tier rating.

The stupidity of the Smash Bros. fanbase will never cease to amaze me.

 

[Opossum]

If I remember correctly, wasn't is Serebii who started that campaign?