Character Discussion Thread

[MasterofMonster]

That would so not work, yet be so badass. I really hope Mewtwo will have a truly Epic Final Smash. And yes, I am positive he will return.

Also, I really hope Mewtwo won't have that female voice from the latest Movie. :/

 

[Gune]

I'd like if Mewtwo just Mega Evolved to use an attack, and not as a transformation FS. Like, he Megavolves into Mewtwo Y, nukes the stage with a 196 Base Special Attack Psystrike, then transforms back.

Lucario should just adopt Mewtwo's Final Smash from Project M. Seems fitting, what with him being Goku and all.

Its the same final smash though.

 

[Knight Dude]

Its the same final smash though.

But it's even bigger and crazier. How could you not like that?

As for Mewtwo, it's Mega Form seems like a plausible choice for a Final Smash. If only for the fact that he's one of the more likely vets to return that doesn't have one yet. And it would be simple to use. But then again, Mewtwo could use Psystrike too.

 

[Arcanir]

I agree about Mega Evolution only being used for Mewtwo and maybe Lucario, maybe as FS or costumes for them.

If Charizard will MegaEvolve somehow in Smash 4, it will most likely be MegaChariard X (the Black one with Blue Fire) since it is clearly the more popular and more 'striking' one. Plus, it has the same body shape, while CharizardY has much longer limbs, neck and tail. ^^

Ironically, according to PGL data, Y is the more used (by three times no less) of the forms despite their constant shoving pushing of X.

Personally, I feel like Mega Evolution could've been a good concept, but was botched in execution, especially when it came to the distribution and marketing of the mechanic. There was really little reason for Pokemon like Blaziken or Gengar to get it over other Pokemon who needed it, and it made even less sense for the former to get one and for Charizard to get two despite the treatment of the other starters. It really makes the mechanic feel like it's trying too hard to cater rather then add something new.

I'm hoping though that they'll learn from their mistakes made this time around and use them to improve on it later on, because the potential is there, it just needs a lot of work.

 

[MasterofMonster]

@ Arcanir
It would seem Popular Pokémon are the first to get Megas, so do expect a LOT of more OP Pokémon to go Mega.

Oh, and that is true, Y is used more. But in a way, X is still more popular. Y just seems to be much better competetively, thus used more. But the main reason I Think it would be X, is that, as you said, Nintendo pushes that one much more.
Or it could be both, randomly.

 

[Gune]

But it's even bigger and crazier. How could you not like that?

Its not that I don't like it I just want to have a real move, not a made up one don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Aura storm and no doubt it's going to be stronger since the Aura buff he got but he has something real he can use right now I would rather he used it instead.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Good afternoon fellow Smash fans. I see the discussion is pokemon again, and the discussion of Mega Evolutions. Just give Lucario the mega evolution, while Mewtwo is more the poster boy for said idea, it's extremely powerful enough on its own, adding a Mega Evolution onto that is just overkill.

Also, can we get some Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness music in this smash? That Cipher Peon Battle theme is King.

 

[Rockaphin]

Also, can we get some Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness music in this smash? That Cipher Peon Battle theme is King.

That was a great battle theme! Most likely my favorite in the game. Personally, I'd like to hear the wild battle theme from RBY to go alongside Mewtwo(if he returns). I want to definitely hear the Admin battle theme from Colosseum.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Good afternoon fellow Smash fans. I see the discussion is pokemon again, and the discussion of Mega Evolutions. Just give Lucario the mega evolution, while Mewtwo is more the poster boy for said idea, it's extremely powerful enough on its own, adding a Mega Evolution onto that is just overkill.

Also, can we get some Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness music in this smash? That Cipher Peon Battle theme is King.

Revisioned Miror B. Battle music please.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Revisioned Miror B. Battle music please.

Personally, I prefer XD's Miror B look, but Colosseum's Miror B theme.

Also, I know this is too much to hope for, but can we get a Citadark Isle stage for the Wii U version?

 

[Deleted member]

I should remind me friend of his Miror B set and that he should finish it.

I know nothing about the character; the set used Ludicolo and rhythm-based moves, where Miror B creates a rhythm to fight to that can be altered. Funky tunes.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo is powerful enough on its own?
Melee says otherwise.

(No but seriously, people shouldn't use a Pokemon's stats to reflect how they perform in Smash.)

 

[Deleted member]

On that note, anyone else find it funny how Charizard, weak to Rock-type, hits himself in the head with a rock for his side special?

I didn't think of that one myself, but it is pretty funny.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Mewtwo is powerful enough on its own?
Melee says otherwise.

(No but seriously, people shouldn't use a Pokemon's stats to reflect how they perform in Smash.)

Yeah, like Pichu actually being the highest damage-dealing pokemon in the Smash Bros series with its Side B. (The thing hit harder than Ganondorf's Warlock Punch FFS)

(No, but seriously, Mewtwo will easily be a heavyweight this time around, and I can see a very powerful moveset being added to go along with it)

On that note, anyone else find it funny how Charizard, weak to Rock-type, hits himself in the head with a rock for his side special?

I didn't think of that one myself, but it is pretty funny.

It's quite clear that Red's Charizard is indeed suicidal...what other answer is there for hitting yourself in the face with a quad weakness? I know Rock Smash is a fighting type move, but it's still a rock to the face.

Maybe he feels that way because his trainer turned him into an HM slave. Not an epic slave, not ACoolSlave, just a slave. (You get a cookie if you get the references)

 

[Rockaphin]

On that note, anyone else find it funny how Charizard, weak to Rock-type, hits himself in the head with a rock for his side special?

I didn't think of that one myself, but it is pretty funny.

In my opinion, that was a weird move to choose for Charizard. I like using it but it's. . . Odd.

 

[Gune]

In my opinion, that was a weird move to choose for Charizard. I like using it but it's. . . Odd.

That was rocksmash charizard in smash is a HM mule, wait never mind Rock smash got demoted to a TM.

 

[Rockaphin]

That was rocksmash charizard in smash is a HM mule, wait never mind Rock smash got demoted to a TM.

It's funny how such a useless TM turns into one of the strongest moves in Smash.
Edit: Useless as in weak.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

That would so not work, yet be so bad***. I really hope Mewtwo will have a truly Epic Final Smash. And yes, I am positive he will return.

Also, I really hope Mewtwo won't have that female voice from the latest Movie. :/

Mewtwo? Eh, I still think he's unlikely, but it be cool. I was thinking maybe his mega evolution for a final smash

 

[MasterofMonster]

Mewtwo? Eh, I still think he's unlikely, but it be cool. I was thinking maybe his mega evolution for a final smash

Mewtwo unlikely? What makes you say that? I mean, he was suppose to be in Brawl. Sonic basically killed him.

Plus, he is extremely promotional once more. And GameFreak tends to tell Sakurai which Pokémon are hot right now.

 

[Arcanir]

@ Arcanir
It would seem Popular Pokémon are the first to get Megas, so do expect a LOT of more OP Pokémon to go Mega.

Oh, and that is true, Y is used more. But in a way, X is still more popular. Y just seems to be much better competetively, thus used more. But the main reason I Think it would be X, is that, as you said, Nintendo pushes that one much more.
Or it could be both, randomly.

True, but that doesn't sit well with me. I don't mind popular Pokemon being given the option, but I feel that Mega Evolution as a concept is playing too much into that aspect over any other.

As for Charizard, if they decide to give it a Mega Evolution, I'd like for it to be both since it would be unique to be able to have different options for his FS and not focus on just one form.

Also, can we get some Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness music in this smash? That Cipher Peon Battle theme is King.

I'd love for that, it was very disappointing that we didn't get anything from those games back in Brawl so I hope they'll throw it a bone this time.

 

[MasterofMonster]

@ Arcanir
I loved the idea of Megas at first, but as you said, and I explained, Popular ones gets them Before those who actually need them, so I agree. :/

And yes, that would be Epic. Especially since it would be fairly simple, just charge Chariard's apperance and attributes. Kinda like two lesser Giga Bowsers.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Mewtwo unlikely? What makes you say that? I mean, he was suppose to be in Brawl. Sonic basically killed him.

Plus, he is extremely promotional once more. And GameFreak tends to tell Sakurai which Pokémon are hot right now.

Oh sure, always blame the blur. What is it with you and Sonic anyway? Considering how far we've gone without him, we don't need this smash bowling over on Generation 1 characters, so basically speaking we may no longer need Mewtwo.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Mewtwo is indeed VERY likely, so much to the point that it should just be shown off already. Regardless, there's much Mewtwo can now work with thanks to how much its initial pool of moves has expanded since the Melee days. In Melee, this was Mewtwo's move pool:

Confusion Psychic
-- -- -- Disable Normal
Lv. 11 Lv. 63 Lv. 63 Barrier Psychic
Lv. 22 -- -- Swift Normal
Lv. 33 N/A N/A Psych Up Normal
Lv. 44 N/A N/A Future Sight Psychic
Lv. 55 Lv. 75 Lv. 75 Mist Ice
Lv. 66 Lv. 66 Lv. 66 Psychic Psychic
Lv. 77 Lv. 81 Lv. 81 Amnesia Psychic
Lv. 88 Lv. 70 Lv. 70 Recover Normal
Lv. 99 N/A N/A Safeguard Normal

That's all, no wonder Mewtwo was so limited. But now we're open to more things:

— Confusion

50 100 25 10
The target is hit by a weak telekinetic force. It may also leave the target confused.
— Disable

-- 100 20 --
For four turns, this move prevents the target from using the move it last used.
— Safeguard

-- -- 25 --
The user creates a protective field that prevents status problems for five turns.
8 Swift

60 -- 20 --
Star-shaped rays are shot at the opposing team. This attack never misses.
15 Future Sight

120 100 10 --
Two turns after this move is used, a hunk of psychic energy attacks the target.
22 Psych Up

-- -- 10 --
The user hypnotizes itself into copying any stat change made by the target.
29 Miracle Eye

-- -- 40 --
Enables a Dark-type target to be hit by Psychic-type attacks. It also enables an evasive target to be hit.
36 Psycho Cut

70 100 20 --
The user tears at the target with blades formed by psychic power. Critical hits land more easily.
43 Power Swap

-- -- 10 --
The user employs its psychic power to switch changes to its Attack and Sp. Atk with the target.
43 Guard Swap

-- -- 10 --
The user employs its psychic power to switch changes to its Defense and Sp. Def with the target.
50 Recover

-- -- 10 --
Restoring its own cells, the user restores its own HP by half of its max HP.
57 Psychic

90 100 10 10
The target is hit by a strong telekinetic force. It may also reduce the target's Sp. Def stat.
64 Barrier

-- -- 20 --
The user throws up a sturdy wall that sharply raises its Defense stat.
70 Aura Sphere

80 -- 20 --
The user looses a blast of aura power from deep within its body at the target. This move is certain to hit.
79 Amnesia

-- -- 20 --
The user temporarily empties its mind to forget its concerns. It sharply raises the user's Sp. Def stat.
86 Mist

-- -- 30 --
The user cloaks its body with a white mist that prevents any of its stats from being cut for five turns.
93 Me First

?? -- 20 --
The user tries to cut ahead of the target to steal and use the target's intended move with greater power.
100 Psystrike

100 100 10 --
The user materializes an odd psychic wave to attack the target. This attack does physical damage.

Not to mention now we have the wonders of Move tutors that can give Mewtwo even more to work with. Mewtwo's moveset this time around should be fantastic.

 

[MasterofMonster]

Oh sure, always blame the blur. What is it with you and Sonic anyway? Considering how far we've gone without him, we don't need this smash bowling over on Generation 1 characters, so basically speaking we may no longer need Mewtwo.

... I blame it on Sonic since Sonic was included extremely late in development, pushing a lot of Quick development time on him, and getting the most finished Cut to be just that, Cut.

Also, Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokémon, possibly next only to Pikachu. He is very promotionable now, he is pushed a lot by GameFreak with a new Movie and much more, plus the fact that he WAS gonna be in Brawl.
No, we don't "need" Mewtwo, but that's a completely different thing. ^^ He's the big thing once again, and has a BIG chance to return.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

... I blame it on Sonic since Sonic was included extremely late in development, pushing a lot of Quick development time on him, and getting the most finished Cut to be just that, Cut.

Also, Mewtwo is one of the most popular Pokémon, possibly next only to Pikachu. He is very promotionable now, he is pushed a lot by GameFreak with a new Movie and much more, plus the fact that he WAS gonna be in Brawl.
No, we don't "need" Mewtwo, but that's a completely different thing. ^^ He's the big thing once again, and has a BIG chance to return.

Whatever

 

[Gune]

Mewtwo unlikely? What makes you say that? I mean, he was suppose to be in Brawl. Sonic basically killed him.

Plus, he is extremely promotional once more. And GameFreak tends to tell Sakurai which Pokémon are hot right now.

Its most likely Lucarios reveal its given people a reminder of what could happen again honestly I don't see it.

 

[Frostwraith]

Oh sure, always blame the blur. What is it with you and Sonic anyway? Considering how far we've gone without him, we don't need this smash bowling over on Generation 1 characters, so basically speaking we may no longer need Mewtwo.

It is true (or at least, very likely) that Sonic was the reason Mewtwo was cut. There's evidence of that in the game's code.

Of all unused characters, Mewtwo seemed the one with most development done. Sakurai stated that Sonic was added late in the game too. I'm not sure about this one, but I think he also stated some content had to be scrapped because they had to work on Sonic. Again, evidence in the code suggests that too.

 

[MasterofMonster]

@ Gune
You mean, you don't see Mewtwo returning cuz' Lucario got revealed?

@ Jason the Yoshi
Whatever? You know, it's not a bad thing to listen to logic and allowing others to make you realise you may be wrong at times. In fact, it makes you a better person by doing so. ^^ I was just explaining that Mewtwo HAS a huge chance to return, and that is fact.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Its most likely Lucarios reveal its given people a reminder of what could happen again honestly I don't see it.

Which is funny because I thought it was easily proven that Lucario had nothing to do with Mewtwo's non-inclusion. I mean c'mon, they're in entirely different categories of character for their franchise. I don't see how a pokemon like Lucario is made to replace the most famous legendary pokemon (and legendary pokemon representation in smash in general) Mewtwo. They're in entirely two different ball-parks, the only thing they have in common is that both can learn Aura Sphere and both are incredibly popular Pokemon that're used for marketing quite often.

Aside from all that, I'm just gonna leave this here to show my ideas for Mewtwo's moveset:

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Maybe there is some light for Mega Mewtwo X if the mega evolution special is designed to show off the mega evolutions to the fullest. It's too bad that for a Psychic/Fighting-type with a base 190 Attack, it doesn't have access to Superpower or Close Combat; sure, Low Kick can be powerful, but only to very heavy targets, and it's not available to Mewtwo in X/Y.

 

[Frostwraith]

If Mewtwo and Charizard are to have Mega Evolutions this time, I think they'd go with Y for Mewtwo and X for Charizard. In Mewtwo's case is due to being the more known and the first unveiled even before Mega Evolutions were confirmed. As for Charizard, I think X is the more popular of his two Mega forms. It was also promoted with Pokémon Origins.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Maybe there is some light for Mega Mewtwo X if the mega evolution special is designed to show off the mega evolutions to the fullest. It's too bad that for a Psychic/Fighting-type with a base 190 Attack, it doesn't have access to Superpower or Close Combat; sure, Low Kick can be powerful, but only to very heavy targets, and it's not available to Mewtwo in X/Y.

Power-Up Punch on Mega Mewtwo X is one of the best possible things you can give it. When you're dealing stab damage on a move that's going to boost a 190 base attack stat, I'd say you're pretty okay.

A great moveset for a Mega Mewtwo X is Power-Up Punch to boost attack power even higher, Drain Punch to recover Health, Psycho Cut to get STAB damage on your psychic type, and Thunder Punch to get rid of those pesky Flying types that're now a hindrance to you...especially Talonflame, the overrated Gale Wing Smogon Bird.

But even though Mega Mewtwo X and Y are the strongest pokemon in existence...Mega Kangaskhan is easily the queen of Mega Evolutions.

 

[IsmaR]

I don't even think movepool/set was ever an issue for Mewtwo. All other Pokemon have several moves from TMs (even outdated ones, like Skull Bash/Submission on Pikachu) and take "creative" interpretation from elsewhere. I think Sakurai just struggled making Mewtwo a fighter since at the time, Mewtwo was primarily seen as a Psychic-and-only-Psychic character (...kinda get that feeling from Lucario, albeit with Aura), hence why so many of his moves seem to rely on his physical attributes (every tilt being tail move, for example) so as to not make him ridiculously broken as in the games, or rather an actual character that can be actually fought. Anything short of S Tier would have felt disappointing, honestly, hence why people are so hard on the Mewtwo that we got.

As I said earlier in this thread, if Sakurai was basing Mewtwo off of something like Origins this time, I don't think he'd have any of the issues/get any of the complaints he did in Melee. Regardless of Psychic hax, Mewtwo is shown running, being agile/sturdy (hand-to-hand combat with a Dragon, despite losing, is impressive) and does so while showing off its signature classic moves, which by today's standards are incredibly sub-par (Swift was even weaker in Gen I, since it was a physical Attack move).

Also Drain Punch is the best move for X, though that's obviously with Pokebank. Maybe there will more move tutors down the line.

 

[Hotfeet444]

I don't even think movepool/set was ever an issue for Mewtwo. All other Pokemon have several moves from TMs (even outdated ones, like Skull Bash/Submission on Pikachu) and take "creative" interpretation from elsewhere. I think Sakurai just struggled making Mewtwo a fighter since at the time, Mewtwo was primarily seen as a Psychic-and-only-Psychic character (...kinda get that feeling from Lucario, albeit with Aura), hence why so many of his moves seem to rely on his physical attributes (every tilt being tail move, for example) so as to not make him ridiculously broken as in the games, or rather an actual character that can be actually fought. Anything short of S Tier would have felt disappointing, honestly, hence why people are so hard on the Mewtwo that we got.

As I said earlier in this thread, if Sakurai was basing Mewtwo off of something like Origins this time, I don't think he'd have any of the issues/get any of the complaints he did in Melee. Regardless of Psychic hax, Mewtwo is shown running, being agile/sturdy (hand-to-hand combat with a Dragon, despite losing, is impressive) and does so while showing off its signature classic moves, which by today's standards are incredibly sub-par (Swift was even weaker in Gen I, since it was a physical Attack move).

Also Drain Punch is the best move for X, though that's obviously with Pokebank. Maybe there will more move tutors down the line.

Although I think most can agree that loss was for the sake of plot and that if this were a realistic situation, that Charizard would've been a smear on the wall. (To be honest, there was so much wrong with that fight once Mega Charizard came out I don't even know where to begin. It honestly just felt they rushed the end of that fight)

 

[Staarih]

I once had a thought of the Mega evolutions being version exclusives. The popular ones (Mewtwo Y and Charizard X) would appear in Smash Wii U (since it needs _something_ more of an edge) and the other two on the 3DS version. Surely normal Mewtwo and Charizard would be in both games, and it really would depend how the Mega evolutions would be implemented in the game - if at all.

 

[Deleted member]

(No, but seriously, Mewtwo will easily be a heavyweight this time around, and I can see a very powerful moveset being added to go along with it)

It isn't wise to make assumptions with what little we know (like if Mewtwo is even showing up).
Mewtwo could just as easily be a lightweight again if not given a bit of a boost into middleweight territory, given that weight in Smash factors in more than just a statistical "weight" (how much gravity affects an objects' mass in a neutral setting).

It factors also on the intended feel of the character (such as Sakurai's example of Samus being "floaty" to reflect the classic Metroid or Snake being an absurdly heavy individual despite being only 165 lbs to reflect the 'realistic' aspect of gravity on him in comparison to the physics-defying franchises of Nintendo). With Mewtwo, Sakurai factored in the natural levitation aspect of Mewtwo as shown in the movie, which, when applied to physics, is essentially defying gravity. So those 269 lbs? Only applies when Mewtwo is standing neutral on the ground with the full force of gravity bearing down on it. Unfortunately, Mewtwo's in a permanent state of levitation in Melee, even when standing idle (considering it floats even for movement along the ground). Same kind of logic was used for Rosalina this time around.

It's also why Mega Mewtwo Y is a pathetic 72 lbs; MMY always levitates.

 

[IsmaR]

I was confused with where the Gen I stuff/rules ended, and Gen VI began. Earlier they showed abilities didn't exist at the time (Jolteon getting KO'd by an Electric attack despite having Volt Absorb), yet I'm pretty sure Mega Charizard X's Tough Claws kicked in. Then there was him countering Swift with...Swift. On top of having Slash AND Mega Punch, I think that was overkill, and the sign of when it started crossing into pure fanservice/'for the sake of awesome' animation rather than making sense anymore.

Which again, I think is what happens to most Pokemon's movesets in Smash. Someone mentioned the Rock Smash example earlier, which makes even less sense when you realize Rock Smash is just a punch that shatters rocks, not actually taking out a rock/smashing it on opponents. Rather than that, they just showed it off in a more "cool" way in Brawl, along with Lucario's Double Team, and Squirtle's Withdraw.

 

[Deleted member]

But in order to smash a rock, you need a rock to do so.

 

[Hotfeet444]

It isn't wise to make assumptions with what little we know (like if Mewtwo is even showing up).
Mewtwo could just as easily be a lightweight again if not given a bit of a boost into middleweight territory, given that weight in Smash factors in more than just a statistical "weight" (how much gravity affects an objects' mass in a neutral setting).

It factors also on the intended feel of the character (such as Sakurai's example of Samus being "floaty" to reflect the classic Metroid or Snake being an absurdly heavy individual despite being only 165 lbs to reflect the 'realistic' aspect of gravity on him in comparison to the physics-defying franchises of Nintendo). With Mewtwo, Sakurai factored in the natural levitation aspect of Mewtwo as shown in the movie, which, when applied to physics, is essentially defying gravity. So those 269 lbs? Only applies when Mewtwo is standing neutral on the ground with the full force of gravity bearing down on it. Unfortunately, Mewtwo's in a permanent state of levitation in Melee, even when standing idle (considering it floats even for movement along the ground). Same kind of logic was used for Rosalina this time around.

It's also why Mega Mewtwo Y is a pathetic 72 lbs; MMY always levitates.

Mega Mewtwo Y is also almost two feet shorter than the actual Mewtwo, but regardless, it's reasonable that it gets lighter if it gets smaller.

Well, we've seen Mewtwo actually run as of now thanks to Pokemon Origins, and is quite quick on its feet. I don't think it flies or floats at all in origins. (I usually only watch it about half way through and stop once they start over-glorifying Charizard). Of course, Mewtwo is reasonably floaty in the new pokemon movie, but usually only when it's flying around or transformed into Mega Mewtwo Y. So we now have an semi-established Canon that Mewtwo can indeed be ground-based in movement, which will most likely lead to a semi-floaty style with an upped weight level. This is something that Project M did right, and I hope they can add into Smash 4. If anything, I certainly don't expect Mewtwo to be lighter than Pikachu this time around.

If anything, they should put it in that he's harder to knock away on the ground but easier in the air.

 

[IsmaR]

He also has a new Rock to Smash now.

Spoiler