Character Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

Bowser was perfectly fine?

He's not a clone, at least.
But I see the need for a change.

 

[Pacack]

yeah. I mean, didn't only beast ganon have a weapon? well, in OoT anyways.

Ganon's had multiple swords throughout the seres, but he only uses a trident in his Ganon form.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Yes I have! He generates an energy ball and shoots it towards you. Much like Mewtwo's Shadow ball.

Ah, I see. Well, in any event, the video is there for the purpose of illustration and as a refresher, which should be useful for all who stumble upon it.

That doesn't make any sense! Moves from the original game never translate into Smash functioning exactly as they do in game.

When I said that, I meant only conceptually - the concept being that you essentially play tennis with the projectile until either someone gets hit, or someone manages to evade it (which was indeed the case in OOT).

There is no question that, were such a move to be implemented in Smash, that it would be tailored to best suit the game's physics/balance/etc.

Like this?

Yes, but with far more lightning sparks.

To be fair, Samus has Charge Shot, which behaves similarly to Shadow Ball (Charge Shot is linear, while Shadow Ball has a wobbling trajectory). And Lucario has his Aura Sphere, which is distinguished by his Aura mechanic. And now Mega Man has a chargeable projectile as well, assigned to his Forward Smash (IIRC). But they are all otherwise similar - if only because they all belong to the same category of moves (which we shall call Charged Projectiles for reference).

It should be noted that I am not advocating for the uniqueness of Ganondorf's "Lightning Sphere". As a move, it would clearly belong to the Charged Projectile category of moves/specials. But much like other Charged Projectiles, the Lightning Sphere would be distinguished by its properties, which would differentiate it from Charge Shot, which is differentiated from Shadow Ball, and so forth.

Also, the above image ties in well with a topic that I raise near the end of this post. I would advise you keep the image in mind for that point.

Yeah, that's going to end up being a terrible move given how easily it backfires.

I make no judgement on how easy the move could backfire. But your counterpoint is not unwarranted.

The purpose of my post was simply to expand on the idea - to give a rough sketch on how such a move might work. I responded to a specific proposition - that Ganondorf's Lightning Sphere would be ostensibly similar, if not identical, to Mewtwo's Shadow Ball. By providing a video reference, I sought to illustrate why that might not necessarily be the case - even though both Shadow Ball and Lightning Sphere would both belong to the Charged Projectile category.

Would it? Are you Sakurai enough to know that?

I get the sense that you overestimate me. I possess too little knowledge on the technical side of Smash to make any serious claims or hypotheses on the topic.

When it comes to the risk-reward comment, therefore, I merely speak of what I conceive of in the abstract. If, by the following premises:

-Ganondorf's Lightning Sphere can be repelled back at him;
-The potency of the Lightning Sphere increases the longer it remains in play (via the sustaining of the exchange);
-Ganondorf can be hit by his own Lightning Spheres;

Then it stands that the reward comes from successfully hitting your target (especially as the inherent damage increases), and the risk coming from getting hit yourself, should you be too slow in rebuffing/evading the Sphere. This is the encapsulation of my point - that Lightning Sphere would be distinguished from other Charged Projectiles via the volley-exchange mechanic, and the damage/speed accumulation mechanic.

Would this concept actually translate to Ganondorf's character, and to Smash as a whole, in a balanced manner? I can make no claim to this, as I am merely outlining the premise of the move in a purely conceptual manner (and nothing more).

So I must respond that no, I am indeed not Sakurai enough to say that this Lightning Sphere move could or would be balanced, or that it could or would have a viable risk-reward quality.

Who said it didn't exist? I'm just saying it's not anymore unique. Just because something functions differently doesn't mean it's unique. Otherwise you'd be calling his current move set unique.

This raises an interesting question regarding the uniqueness of a given move VS how fitting the move is for the character relative to their original series.

-Samus has her Charge Shot, which originates from her appearances in Metroid;
-Mewtwo has Shadow Ball, which originates from the Pokemon anime, as your image illustrates (and perhaps the games, though I wouldn't know);
-Lucario has Aura Sphere (which again I cannot determine the origin, having not played Pokemon);
-Mega Man has his own Charge Shot, which likely hails from his own games;
-And along these lines, Ganondorf's Lightning Sphere would hail from his attacks seen in his OOT boss fight.

Is it befitting of the character? It is, because it would be lifted from one of his Zelda appearances. Is it unique? Only inasmuch as the rest of the Charged Projectile moves are unique from one another.

Does the latter invalidate or overrule the former? Should a move that befits a character by virtue of canon/relevance be dismissed if it is not unique or distinguished enough amongst the existing moves in the Smash roster?

Once more, I lack the required education (and/or am not confident in my current level of knowledge and understanding) to offer an answer myself. But I leave the question as a potential topic of discussion, as it seems most suitable for a thread such as this.

 

[Starcutter]

Ganon's had multiple swords throughout the seres, but he only uses a trident in his Ganon form.

that didn't really tell me anything new....


I was asking (I mean I guess I was asking. idk) if gannondorf had a sword in his human form.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganon's had multiple swords throughout the seres, but he only uses a trident in his Ganon form.

Ocarina of Time Ganon used swords himself.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ever heard of risk vs reward? it could be set up in a way that of Ganondorf was the third person to hit it, it could be near impossible to avoid. (or you could take the stupid way out and make it so it won't hit ganondorf. you said it yourself, "Moves from the original game never translate into Smash functioning exactly as they do in game."

Tennis doesn't work in SSB.

are you Sakurai enough to know it won't be? (answer, no. you aren't.)

You don't have to act like a kid. Just because I'm pointing out how you talk so certain doesn't make mean I hold the contrary opinion or am even certain of the contrary opinion.

are you really saying a vollying projectile that gains power isn't unique? because that's something NEVER BEFORE SEEN in a smash game.

I didn't even know you actually thought the volley thing would WORK in SSB. Because it doesn't.

 

[Louie G.]

Well who said the volley doesn't work in Smash?
Mario's Cape and Fox's Reflector could volley all day long.

 

[shrooby]

He's not a clone, at least.
But I see the need for a change.

Yeah, see, this is more-so why Ganondorf needs to be changed.
I personally see Ganondorf as pretty different from the Captain. At least in practice he is. It's just that his moveset, while I find it very fun and rewarding, (Seriously, hitting anyone with any of his moves is something I find so satisfying.) isn't very good.
Maybe that won't be the case with the new engine, but I think Ganondorf needs some changes more-so because he just isn't a good character in practice, like Bowser. If he's going to still be a slow heavy hitter like what Sakurai was going for in Brawl, then he needs a projectile to be actually be able to approach and prevent spamming. He needs some more quick and/or long reaching moves so that he isn't completely torn apart by characters with disjointed hitboxes. I don't care if those changes come from just tweaking his existing moves or giving him new moves entirely, but they need to happen either way.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Well who said the volley doesn't work in Smash?
Mario's Cape and Fox's Reflector could volley all day long.

But, it doesn't get anywhere and it requires specific characters as well as the patience and cooperation of another opponent to achieve nothing.

 

[Sehnsucht]

that didn't really tell me anything new....

I was asking (I mean I guess I was asking. idk) if gannondorf had a sword in his human form.

He didn't use one in Ocarina of Time. He did in the Spaceworld demo, which was the basis for his visual design in Melee. He wielded twin blades in Wind Waker, and he stole the Sword of the Sages in Twilight Princess (which can be seen in his Down Taunt in Brawl, if I'm not mistaken).

 

[Pacack]

that didn't really tell me anything new....


I was asking (I mean I guess I was asking. idk) if gannondorf had a sword in his human form.

Derp. *Ganondorf's used multiple swords (Twilight Princess and Wind Waker are the two that first come to mind).

Ocarina of Time Ganon used swords himself.

Yes. I meant *Ganondorf for the first one.

 

[Louie G.]

But, it doesn't get anywhere and it requires specific characters as well as the patience and cooperation of another opponent to achieve nothing.

But it WOULD work, technically.
I think that whatever Sakurai thinks is necessary can be implemented.
It can work, but will Sakurai incorporate it? Probably not.

 

[Pacack]

Something cool that I'd like to point out is that
[collapse=A Link Between Worlds Spoiler]Yuga-Ganon uses the Dead Man's volley in his boss battle.[/collapse]
So Ganon's used Dead Man's Volley (in some form) in multiple games now.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I would like to think that with the fact that they are adding fewer newcomers, that they would work on balancing and changing veterans. Especially Ganondorf. He doesn't need the whole moveset changed. Just his specials. Give him something he actually does in game instead of imitating his favorite race car driver.

He does actually do that stuff in the game. Characters don't have to have move sets consisting of only things they canonically do and exactly how they do them.

He does like one specifically established magic attack which is the volley. Why is acknowledging this so important? He already uses magic and strength, why is it worth the effort to implement this one and only iconic magic attack?

But it WOULD work, technically.

How!? How would it not be a ****ty move when opponents can so easily counter it by simply attacking the ball? And if they do, Ganondorf has to conveniently be in the same spot he fired it to backfire it back to the person who would have to ALSO have to conveniently be in the exact same spot they countered it. And if it just locked on to you it'd be completely broken.

I think that whatever Sakurai thinks is necessary can be implemented.

The most naive argument at all "Sakurai can do literally anything he wants if he wants to." Yeah, that really explains how stuff balances out. Telling me what Sakurai CAN do really gives me a good understanding of what Sakurai WOULD do.

 

[Pazzo.]

yeah. I mean, didn't only beast ganon have a weapon? well, in OoT anyways.

I think in the older games he had a trident or something evil looking.

 

[Starcutter]

Tennis doesn't work in SSB.

HOLD IT! where's your evidence! I don't like outrageous claims in this courthouse! Mr. Saturn, please provide evidence to support your outrageous claim.

You don't have to act like a kid. Just because I'm pointing out how you talk so certain doesn't make mean I hold the contrary opinion or am even certain of the contrary opinion.

GOTCHA!
do you realize what you just did? you just proved to the court that you obviously don't think things through when you respond. either that, or you don't read the posts thoroughly, which is also a big problem.

the contradiction here is that you said "Just because I'm pointing out how you talk so certain" while the person you were previously talking to was, in fact, not me!

please explain the contradiction to the court, Mr. Saturn.

I didn't even know you actually thought the volley thing would WORK in SSB. Because it doesn't.

Again, please provide evidence.

 

[Louie G.]

@SaturnGamer64
Way to completely ignore me saying that he probably won't implement it.
Picking and choosing what to argue against only to use a point against me that I already discussed.
Nice.

 

[Bowserlick]

The move should not be chargable, but rather just an orb of energy. The orb moves slowly. This allows Ganondorf to follow its path for an approach. Only one out per Ganondorf at a time.

But the orb can be hit in order to volley the sphere in the other direction. Each hit makes the orb bigger and more powerful. However, the bigger and more powerful the orb the more powerful a hit it needs to be sent the other way.

This shifts the projectile in Ganondorf's favor since all his moves come with power. Being the wielder of the Triforce of Power this makes sense.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

He does actually do that stuff in the game. Characters don't have to have move sets consisting of only things they canonically do and exactly how they do them.


How!? How would it not be a ****ty move when opponents can so easily counter it by simply attacking the ball? And if they do, Ganondorf has to conveniently be in the same spot he fired it to backfire it back to the person who would have to ALSO have to conveniently be in the exact same spot they countered it. And if it just locked on to you it'd be completely broken.


The most naive argument at all "Sakurai can do literally anything he wants if he wants to." Yeah, that really explains how stuff balances out. Telling me what Sakurai CAN do really gives me a good understanding of what Sakurai WOULD do.

Show me where he does every single one of those specials, and I'll agree with you.

The problem isn't the tilts and smashes. It's the specials, which were clearly ripped from Falcon. He's been in the series for 2 games now. He can use some love.

Also, I do find it funny that Saturn is saying that we can't say it will work or would work because we don't know Sakurai, yet he then says it wouldn't. Hypocritical.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

@SaturnGamer64
Way to completely ignore me saying that he probably won't implement it.
Picking and choosing what to argue against only to use a point against me that I already discussed.
Nice.

I'm not arguing against whether you think it could happen. I'm arguing that you specifically stated it could work.

Don't twist the argument, bud.

 

[Minato Arisato]

What are we focusing on now? I wasn't following.

 

[Starcutter]

What are we focusing on now? I wasn't following.

whether or not

can work in smash as part of ganondorf's moveset.

saturn says no, as usual.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Show me where he does every single one of those specials, and I'll agree with you.

You're just being ridiculous right now. He performs magic and physical strength. Who cares if it doesn't function the same as the game. Hardly anybody's moves do. I don't see you complaining about how Marth doesn't do any of those sword attacks. Because he still fights with a sword.

The problem isn't the tilts and smashes. It's the specials, which were clearly ripped from Falcon. He's been in the series for 2 games now. He can use some love.

I fail to see how this is an issue despite the bias and greed of fans. He's in the game, he does attacks that are true to his character. That sounds like enough love.

Also, I do find it funny that Saturn is saying that we can't say it will work or would work because we don't know Sakurai, yet he then says it wouldn't. Hypocritical.

Learn to read the damn arguments you're responding too.

saturn says no, as usual.

Sorry. I'll try to be not think about it next time. That seems to be the key to claiming stuff will absolutely work in Super Smash Brothers.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also, again, people thinking Sakurai is the one that develops all of the coding for every video game he directs.

 

[Sehnsucht]

How!? How would it not be a ****ty move when opponents can so easily counter it by simply attacking the ball? And if they do, Ganondorf has to conveniently be in the same spot he fired it to backfire it back to the person who would have to ALSO have to conveniently be in the exact same spot they countered it. And if it just locked on to you it'd be completely broken.

Once more, a reasonable concern.

I envision a compromise between the two options you note. It would not be a linear attack, which reflects at whatever angle you hit it tp then whirl forward, Newton's First Law be damned; but neither would it be the equivalent of a homing missile, which locks on to your precise location.

Ganondorf would charge the shot and have it on hold. When deployed, it would loosely hone on the general location of the enemy as it was at the moment of deployment. It would be at its lowest speed and strength at this point, so it would be easier to evade. You could then use it closer so that the enemy has no choice but to return the volley lest they get hit. The speed factor would increase along a curve that makes sense with the game's physics (e.g. x1.5 times the initial speed at every return).

The move would be versatile, in this respect. You could use the move as a regular Charged Projectile, or you could manipulate your opponent into entering an exchange, which would require a strong sense of timing in order to prevent the attack from hitting you.

These are just (very?) rough ideas, of course. I fully agree that the implementation and execution of such a move and mechanic would have to be spot-on, lest it deregulate the balance of the game, whether toward Ganondorf or toward everyone else (or both).

And for the record, I'm not expecting Ganondorf's specials or general moveset to change much in SSB4. But it's fun to think about what Ganondorf would look like if his specials/moves were lifted more from canon origins, as opposed to semi-clone modifications of Falcon's moveset (as was the case in Brawl, and could well be in SSB4).

 

[Starcutter]

I fail to see how this is an issue despite the bias and greed of fans. He's in the game, he does attacks that are true to his character. That sounds like enough love.

no, it's not. he doesn't use anything specific that resembles anything that he does in his biggest game.


all his moves make sense to his concept, not his actual character. (even then it's a bit iffy)

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You're just being ridiculous right now. He performs magic and physical strength. Who cares if it doesn't function the same as the game. Hardly anybody's moves do. I don't see you complaining about how Marth doesn't do any of those sword attacks. Because he still fights with a sword.


I fail to see how this is an issue despite the bias and greed of fans. He's in the game, he does attacks that are true to his character. That sounds like enough love.


Learn to read the damn arguments you're responding too.


Sorry. I'll try to be not think about it next time. That seems to be the key to claiming stuff will absolutely work in Super Smash Brothers.

If you're going to respond to me, have some decency and be polite. You're being borderline to some people in here so please try to be a little bit more polite.

Ganondorf certainly has more iconic moves to use than stuff that was blatantly ripped out of another character. His brute strength can be shown off overall, but it wouldn't hurt to throw something in there that would probably make him better than he is. Because right now he's garbage.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Energy projectiles can't be reflected with normal moves. They have to be specials like Mario's cape or Fox's reflector. You can't even reflect physical projectiles with basic attakcs. You have to catch and throw them. So you'd have to be stupid to argue that it would work. Let alone the mere concept of a move that requires two characters to stay in the same place in order to play a pointless game of stalemate.

 

[Louie G.]

Why can't Ganondorf just get the tennis balls of doom but not have the volley mechanic?

I feel like being "true to the character" is a touchy subject.
For example to be true to Captain Falcon he would have to stay in his Blue Falcon.
To be true to Ness he would have to use moves actually used by him in game.
But it works. Ganondorf "works", but some loyal fans really want to see him get something unique.
Because let's face it, Ganondorf has enough to go off of now. Back in Melee it was just OoT but now we've seen a lot more.

 

[Starcutter]

Sorry. I'll try to be not think about it next time. That seems to be the key to claiming stuff will absolutely work in Super Smash Brothers.

NO! I want you to think about it MORE.


think of your overall concept of "what will work and what won't work in smash bros."


because frankly, I don't get your reasoning a lot of the time, even though I really want to.

Energy projectiles can't be reflected with normal moves. They have to be specials like Mario's cape or Fox's reflector. You can't even reflect physical projectiles with basic attakcs. You have to catch and throw them. So you'd have to be stupid to argue that it would work. Let alone the mere concept of a move that requires two characters to stay in the same place in order to play a pointless game of stalemate.

SO THAT'S YOUR BASIS!

obviously, it would be something new. There is always a new mechanic(or two) added into smash each game, you can't base your reasoning on that! especially if it's something relatively simple.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Energy projectiles can't be reflected with normal moves. They have to be specials like Mario's cape or Fox's reflector. You can't even reflect physical projectiles with basic attakcs. You have to catch and throw them. So you'd have to be stupid to argue that it would work. Let alone the mere concept of a move that requires two characters to stay in the same place in order to play a pointless game of stalemate.

You're flat out being a hypocrite. How do you know Sakurai is going to implement it a certain way? It isn't deflected by fists in Zelda, but as you said, this isn't Zelda.

Who cares if it doesn't function the same as the game.

 

[shrooby]

whether or not

can work in smash as part of ganondorf's moveset.

saturn says no, as usual.

I don't think it could work on Ganondorf. He needs an effective projectile, not one that can just be hit back at him by hitting it. It could work on another character, but I don't think it could be put to effective use on the slow heavy-hitting Ganondorf

 

[Sehnsucht]

Ganondorf certainly has more iconic moves to use than stuff that was blatantly ripped out of another character. His brute strength can be shown off overall, but it wouldn't hurt to throw something in there that would probably make him better than he is. Because right now he's garbage.

After Luigi, Ganondorf is probably my most-used Brawl character (speaking as more of a casual, rather than competitive, player). So him getting a slight speed buff/tweaks in his moveset/specials that better reflect his Zelda origins rather than his Captain Falcon origins are all right up my alley.

Whatever the case may be, I'm very keen on seeing how Ganondorf will play/be changed for SSB4 (and also, Gerudo King in HD, baby ).

 

[Bowserlick]

Energy projectiles can't be reflected with normal moves. They have to be specials like Mario's cape or Fox's reflector. You can't even reflect physical projectiles with basic attakcs. You have to catch and throw them. So you'd have to be stupid to argue that it would work. Let alone the mere concept of a move that requires two characters to stay in the same place in order to play a pointless game of stalemate.

I think Ness can reflect a projectile with his Forward Smash.

 

[FlareHabanero]

What Ganondorf needs is better range or better mobility.

Those are both his biggest short comings, and the contributing factor as to why he sucked badly in Brawl.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ganondorf certainly has more iconic moves to use than stuff that was blatantly ripped out of another character.

Name one besides his energy ball and his sword (which brings nothing new at all.)

I'll bet anything you bring up is going to be about as significant as his choke in Twilight Princess.

Sorry. I'll try to be not think next time. That seems to be the key to claiming stuff will absolutely work in a fighting game.
His brute strength can be shown off overall, but it wouldn't hurt to throw something in there that would probably make him better than he is. Because right now he's garbage.

Opinion. A rather bad one at that. I happen to think he's one of the funnest characters.

no, it's not. he doesn't use anything specific that resembles anything that he does in his biggest game.

Nor does Marth. And none of the PSI moves resemble the functionality of the ones in EarthBound. Ganondorf punches and uses magic. Once again, who cares if it doesn't function according to canon. Sakurai's not huge on canon.

all his moves make sense to his concept, not his actual character.

What's wrong with that? And if it makes sense to his concept than how does it not make sense to his character?

You're flat out being a hypocrite. How do you know Sakurai is going to implement it a certain way?

I DON'T! I'm arguing the way YOU suggested it would work. That's why I said to read what you're arguing.

It isn't deflected by fists in Zelda

Actually...

 

[Louie G.]

A cape move with Ganondorf would be amazing though.
There doesn't have to be a volley mechanic with the balls but if he gets a Mario cape that'd be great.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

A cape move with Ganondorf would be amazing though.
There doesn't have to be a volley mechanic with the balls but if he gets a Mario cape that'd be great.

A cape move???

 

[Louie G.]

A cape move???

It wasn't really serious, but a cape move.
In the gif you see Ganondorf reflecting the ball with his cape.
Mario does that with his cape.
Don't tell me that wouldn't work.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It wasn't really serious, but a cape move.
In the gif you see Ganondorf reflecting the ball with his cape.
Mario does that with his cape.
Don't tell me that wouldn't work.

Why would I say it doesn't work. It's not like reflecting energy based projectiles with basic smash attacks which ALREADY doesn't work.
But, how is this better? Replacing a cloned move with another cloned move?