Character Discussion Thread

[BaganSmashBros]

What are you guys' thoughts on overrepresentation?

I personally don't care all that much, as long as those so-called "going overboard" characters are fun or interesting or cool. I'll welcome pretty much any character like that, regardless of whether or not that series / game "deserved it" or not. This is what baffles me about the hate toward FE and KI:U content in Smash 4, at least on the casting side of things. Lucina, Robin, Palutena, and Dark Pit are all enjoyable characters in their own games and they have interesting personalities here, so what does it REALLY matter if they get in and your favorite character doesn't? I'd maybe tweak Lucina and especially Dark Pit more to have more dynamic differences from Marth and Pit, but otherwise I enjoy their inclusion and I like playing their bases anyway, so I enjoy playing their clones too.

I confess to being somewhat concerned with underrepresentation, though. Ever since the original Smash came out on the Nintendo 64 I'd wanted and hoped for both K. Rool and Samurai Goroh. I liked F-Zero and Donkey Kong Country as a kid and felt both series could use a few more characters other than the protagonist / mascot. After a few years I enjoyed Golden Sun and wanted Isaac. I loooove Captain Falcon and Donkey Kong but have been somewhat disheartened that some of the other notable characters from their games haven't gotten a chance to shine in the ring. And Isaac's earth-shifting powers would be so cool in a Smash game.

With DKC stuff in Smash, though, I've really enjoyed Diddy Kong and I could be just as satisfied if I got Dixie, even if K. Rool never got in (as much as I'd want him to be). But I think F-Zero could still use just one other character. Soooo many cool and interesting racers, but sadly the series itself isn't very popular among these boards, just the good captain himself (and boy is he popular, haha). At the very least, I'd like the captain's rival Samurai Goroh to be playable. Give him a hammy personality and over-the-top katana-swinging abilities that go beyond the realm of normal possibility, as a counterpart to Captain Falcon's over-the-top fisticuffs. I think even non-F-Zero fans would love that, haha. As for Isaac, I'll want him forever even if Golden Sun is pretty dead and unpopular by this point. Golden Sun was such a great game.

Despite my concerns on that, I can deal with it fine. If I don't get all the characters I want, I still find myself having tons of fun with the newcomers I DID get. Although I wanted Toad, Rosalina's been tons of fun for me, as micro-managing her Luma has been very rewarding. As much as I wanted Mike Jones for my retro pick, I'm having a BLAST with Little Mac, since it feels satisfying to correctly space all his punches and dart around and hit hard like a human bullet. I'm not mad at either character for getting in, because at the end of the day Smash's cast will always be incredible fun.

Still tho. Waitin' on that Dixie / K. Rool / Goroh / Isaac. Maybe someday.

Its more like those character take away development time that could be used for characters from underrepresented franchises. Thats it.

 

[Wintropy]

Of course, there's always the chance of Toon Zelda or Tetra. Despite the fact that it's another Zelda.

Ah, the man makes a good point.

I'd actually be okay with that. Tetra inheriting the Wind Waker tools that Toon Link is never going to use would make me very happy indeed.

I'm honestly a lot more salty about that than I am about Falcondorf.

I still love you Tink.

Its more like those character take away development time that could be used for characters from underrepresented franchises. Thats it.

A series being "underrepresented" does not automatically make them more privileged or, heavens have mercy on my mortal soul, "deserving" than any other character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Impa's probably the most likely character if Zelda was specifically going to get a new character, but as we all know, Sakurai doesn't work that way.

The chances of a Zelda character appearing at all are up in the air.

I think it's actually pretty likely we're getting a Zelda character, thus Impa, because of the lack of Zelda characters since Brawl (I wanted to say Melee, but I guess Toon Link counts even if he's a spiritual succesor). Zelda has since Melee become one of the Smash series biggest franchises, and Nintendo continues promoting the series heavily. Mario and Zelda definitely take priority in just about every Nintendo project, it's almost sickening (epsecially as a DKC fan). With Mario having two newcomers this time around, and even having Dr.Mario return, I cannot see why a new Zelda character wouldn't be expected. Especially since we're expecting characters from other major franchises, as StarFox, DKC and Kirby. At the very least, Impa is about as likely as Dixie and Bandana Dee I think.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The problem with Captain Toad....he can't jump.

And Inkling is getting a full on Mii costume and a third Mario would be......

Nice joke.

Now give me a good reason Captain Toad can't join.

 

[Wintropy]

I think it's actually pretty likely we're getting a Zelda character, thus Impa, because of the lack of Zelda characters since Brawl (I wanted to say Melee, but I guess Toon Link counts even if he's a spiritual succesor). Zelda has since Melee become one of the Smash series biggest franchises, and Nintendo continues promoting the series heavily. Mario and Zelda definitely take priority in just about every Nintendo project, it's almost sickening (epsecially as a DKC fan). With Mario having two newcomers this time around, and even having Dr.Mario return, I cannot see why a new Zelda character wouldn't be expected. Especially since we're expecting characters from other major franchises, as StarFox, DKC and Kirby. At the very least, Impa is about as likely as Dixie and Bandana Dee I think.

Fair point. While my top pick for a Zelda character would still be Tingle (I am absolutely sincere when I say that), I think Impa would probably be the most likely choice and a fine character in her own right.

The only concern I have is, how would she play? That's not to suggest that she has no moveset potential - from what I've seen, the issue is that she has too much. You can do so much with her, and her abilities are never totally consistent between games; I'm just concerned that Sakurai won't know what to do with it and will just scrap the concept. Unless he decides to go straight for a Skyward Sword adaptation - which I'd love - I'm not sure how he's going to justify narrowing it down to a single moveset.

Also the salt from people who maintain Ganondorf should get a new moveset before any other Zelda newcomers would be intense. But it'd subside quickly.

That and the confirmation of no Zelda U at E3 may mean the Zelda hype isn't sustainable right now. I'm not sure that she's as likely as Dixie or Bandana Dee, but I wouldn't say she's at all unlikely either.

 

[memoryman3]

Nice joke.

Now give me a good reason Captain Toad can't join.

He can't jump.

 

[Champ Gold]

Nice joke.

Now give me a good reason Captain Toad can't join.

He's a Toad. Toads are wimps, punks, can't do anything on their own and scared of their own shadow.

It's why needs to defend her kingdom, Toads can't do it and they are crazy wimps

 

[Burruni]

I think it's actually pretty likely we're getting a Zelda character, thus Impa, because of the lack of Zelda characters since Brawl (I wanted to say Melee, but I guess Toon Link counts even if he's a spiritual succesor). Zelda has since Melee become one of the Smash series biggest franchises, and Nintendo continues promoting the series heavily. Mario and Zelda definitely take priority in just about every Nintendo project, it's almost sickening (epsecially as a DKC fan). With Mario having two newcomers this time around, and even having Dr.Mario return, I cannot see why a new Zelda character wouldn't be expected. Especially since we're expecting characters from other major franchises, as StarFox, DKC and Kirby. At the very least, Impa is about as likely as Dixie and Bandana Dee I think.

While I say that a Zelda character is quite possible on the side of likely out of Ballot DLC, depending on how many we expect to get... there are few counter-points I'd like to make.

Just because a series hasn't gotten a newcomer by the "on-disc" choices, doesn't mean that they are entitled to it.

People EXPECT characters from other major franchises (focusing solely on Star Fox, DK, and Kirby as you cited here) for reasons other than "Oh these are big Nintendo series and didn't get a new character, sorry we forgot to do that. HERE YOU GO."

is expected because he's a veteran whose case was always compared almost point for point equal in likelihood of return to except unlike Star Fox is getting a new game,.

King K. Rool is expected because he has AMAZING fan support all across the world, is a major villain, and has been a character of high demand dating back to Melee. As a significant part of the Ballot is popularity and of course character merit, this is his time to shine.

Bandana Dee is a character CONSTANTLY faced with opposition on "Oh he's just like a goomba in a hat" and "Sakurai doesn't care about Kirby games that he didn't make," people as a whole AREN'T expecting him but IF Kirby as a series was to get a 4th character he's the one who is the most likely due to fan demand and the amount that HAL has been using him in recent titles.

Impa has a spin-off and one major game behid her, using two different designs and VERY different combat styles. She, after Ganon, now has the best tally for an active roles in the Zelda series.

Also, just to say. One big argument against the grounds of Zelda "needing" another character is that some people dispute that with , the series has its core representation handled... got in due to the transformation gimmick and had fan demand possibly heightened by the fact that opened the door to a "smaller Link" clone character.

Granted, I'm a fair bit of a detractor for Impa so take my words with a bit of salt.

Edit:

Nice joke.

Now give me a good reason Captain Toad can't join.

Because he's a character in a series that a fair amount of people have disputed that his series is already saturated in how many take up the roster and he has two games of an active role: One being a side-game that occurred less than once a world in 3D World and his Spin-Off. With the two newcomers that we have present for the series being a major figure from Wii onwards with her popularity and establishing herself into spin-offs almost immediately akin to the situation of Daisy but with a galactic theme and a character from the Gamecube with popularity present back in Brawl with usage in an ever-growing collection of titles he appears as the right-hand man of his dad. We don't know how much Captain Toad is going to be more than what he was in Galaxy 1 & 2.

I'm not a major objector to him. But I say his ground is better mined for Smash 5 than dlc for this game if he keeps getting used even sporadically over the next ~7 years.

 

[Zzuxon]

He can't jump.

And I suppose Ridley's too big too, right?
Olimar can't jump in his source games, can't be in smash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Skyward Sword Impa would be the best possible choice, seeing as Skyloft is already chosen as the new Zelda stage (yet it lacks a character that's actually from that game ironically). And Impa also had one of her throphies based on it. It's not all that hard to create one singular moveset for her, she has a lot to work with.

-Her role as Zelda's guardian and Hylia's handpicked chosen warrior suggest supreme combat abilities for example. Stretch the guardian part, and make her a more lightweighted yet extremely defensive, yet combo-based character. A sort of anti-Sheik, similar to how Wolf is a sort of anti-Fox.
-Take stuff out of Skyward Sword that was important plot-wise, similary to Zelda / Sheik transformation being just about the biggest plot-involved part of any character's moveset / reason for being made playable. My suggestion is her using the Timeshift Stones from Skyward Sword, strechting her relationship with time travelling.
-Deku Nuts and her barrier would make for easy to implement Specials and would help to create a playstyle for her quite easily. Deku Nuts where also items in Brawl, it shouldn't be too hard to give them to Impa, make them similar to Sheik's grenades if they must.
-Ground moves could be based on her more defensive stance when using the barrier, making her moveset more based on traditional monks than ninjas, being somewhat of a mixed bag of goods in the progress.
-And then there's of course Hyrule Warriors stuff, which is a whole lot more than what I already typed.

 

[MainJPW]

He's a Toad. Toads are wimps, punks, can't do anything on their own and scared of their own shadow.

It's why needs to defend her kingdom, Toads can't do it and they are crazy wimps

That doesn't really speak for all Toads.

 

[Burruni]

And I suppose Ridley's too big too, right?
Olimar can't jump in his source games, can't be in smash.

Olimar can and does jump. He springs up with a leap at the start of Pikmin 1 (as Louie does in Pikmin 2... and Alph in 3), will leap out of Pikmin's grasp when using the Nap Sack, and actively leaps a height equal to if not greater than that of his own in Pikmin 2 whenever jumping into a Geyser to exit a Cave "Dungeon."

Edit:

21:45 to see that massive jump in Pikmin 2.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

And I suppose Ridley's too big too, right?
Olimar can't jump in his source games, can't be in smash.

Sakurai says so, which means he is.
Sakurai also added random tripping, so, random tripping is good since Sakurai can never make bad decisions.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

He's a Toad. Toads are wimps, punks, can't do anything on their own and scared of their own shadow.

It's why needs to defend her kingdom, Toads can't do it and they are crazy wimps

Balloons take on Godesses and that's your reason?
Besides, this Toad went on his own adventure and defeated a big dragon.

He can't jump.

And that is a good reason because?

 

[FalKoopa]

I think Zelda should get one more character. The current cast we have - same as Brawl is becoming a bit less indicative of the franchise, as it has moved on since 2006. Ganondorf hasn't been a major villain since Twilight Princess, Link and Zelda's designs have marched on, Impa is almost becoming as reoccurring as the main trio, Tingle has returned in full force.

Tingle unfortunately became an assist trophy again, so that leaves Impa, who has the best chances among the Zelda candidates left.

On the other hand, the number of characters the Big 3 have is quite indicative of their importance to Nintendo, Mario reigns at top with a staggering 7, then Pokémon at 6, and Zelda at 5. Although I don't believe in slots (just look at Fire Emblem), Zelda doesn't have a similar clone to bring back (Young Link support is non-existent), and no one wants a clone newcomer, which hurts the chances a bit.

It's Impa or no one right now.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ridley in a game which removed it's gliding gimmick... Am not really seeing that happen honestly. Also 2big

 

[Burruni]

It's Impa or no one right now.

Yep. No one. Certainly not the villain with the most appearances in the series with the latest being in the last released main series Zelda game. One that could embody the magical properties of a heavyweight that people have asked for in Ganondorf and would make the roster 2 Links 2 Zeldas 2 Ganons.

CERTAINLY NOT. King of Porkness rises.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Ridley in a game which removed it's gliding gimmick... Am not really seeing that happen honestly. Also 2big

Doesn't means he can't be the only character to have it. And many characters have been resized and im not talking about Bowser and Ganondorf. Any objective arguments? Or only subjective stuff?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yep. No one. Certainly not the villain with the most appearances in the series with the latest being in the last released main series Zelda game. One that could embody the magical properties of a heavyweight that people have asked for in Ganondorf and would make the roster 2 Links 2 Zeldas 2 Ganons.

CERTAINLY NOT. King of Porkness rises.

Yeah, those big and recent games whose content shows up everywhere in this game.

At least Impa's two games where she's the big girl are the two games repped in Smash with stages, trophies and items.

 

[A Distant Demon]

"gliding is removed so ridley cant be in smash"

wut. I want to retort that but . . .wut?


smash isnt canon. captain toad is fine.

Ganon > volga > tingle >anyone else



also for that one thing by intellihelth PushDustin has evidence against most of them. so that source is absurdly not reliable

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Yeah, those big and recent games whose content shows up everywhere in this game.

At least Impa's two games where she's the big girl are the two games repped in Smash with stages, trophies and items.

Thats just ignoring facts. Because in such case, there should be no characters from unrepped franchises.

 

[Burruni]

Yeah, those big and recent games whose content shows up everywhere in this game.

At least Impa's two games where she's the big girl are the two games repped in Smash with stages, trophies and items.

....
Tell me where there's ANYTHING from Hyrule Warriors in Smash.

And LBW didn't get a stage, trophy, or item because Skyward Sword got so much focus and I can't think of a time that ANY Handheld Zelda title got something in Smash besides the Spirit Tracks stage (which was a shocker in itself, as it is very often considered one of the least popular titles) Edit: But it was likely the last made Zelda title that was brought to the table for anything new, as the only things from beyond its time being out are Tropical Freeze getting a few trophies and Wooly World's stage... both of which being hyped up a LOT by E3's while the game was being developed. It at least has Toon Link's alternate color to match the outfit of it.

 

[A Distant Demon]

....
Tell me where there's ANYTHING from Hyrule Warriors in Smash.

And LBW didn't get a stage, trophy, or item because Skyward Sword got so much focus and I can't think of a time that ANY Handheld Zelda title got something in Smash besides the Spirit Tracks stage (which was a shocker in itself, as it is very often considered one of the least popular titles). It at least has Toon Link's alternate color to match the outfit of it.

i think he meant OOT

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yep. No one. Certainly not the villain with the most appearances in the series with the latest being in the last released main series Zelda game. One that could embody the magical properties of a heavyweight that people have asked for in Ganondorf and would make the roster 2 Links 2 Zeldas 2 Ganons.

CERTAINLY NOT. King of Porkness rises.

Probably won't happen unless he becomes King K.Rool- sized big in the ballot. Even then, 2big could still be an issue, as well as Ganondorf's FS, as well as 2versions of all Zelda characters. And Ganon hasn't really had a major appearance outside of A Link Between Worlds, were he just got poccessed in the end. Also remember that just about 99% from the Zelda content is from console games. And that Impa is both easier to create as well as more popular on the ballot.

Doesn't means he can't be the only character to have it. And many characters have been resized and im not talking about Bowser and Ganondorf. Any objective arguments? Or only subjective stuff?

Yes, Sakurai himself said Ridley is 2big. That's about as objective as it gets.

 

[Burruni]

Probably won't happen unless he becomes King K.Rool- sized big in the ballot. Even then, 2big could still be an issue, as well as Ganondorf's FS, as well as 2versions of all Zelda characters. And Ganon hasn't really had a major appearance outside of A Link Between Worlds, were he just got poccessed in the end. Also remember that just about 99% from the Zelda content is from console games. And that Impa is both easier to create as well as more popular on the ballot.

Yes, Sakurai himself said Ridley is 2big. That's about as objective as it gets.

We've gone over Ganon's size and the Beast Ganon Final Smash at least 3 times, Diddy.

Ganon's bigger to Zelda as a series and meets certain fan demands for Smash. Impa has more direct popularity but one of her two biggest games is a side-game made by a 3rd party company.

His biggest appearance before LBW was Nintendo Land, and before that admittedly was FS Adventures.

I was talking on the grounds that it was "Impa or no one," which I will argue is not quite the case.

Edit: He's a "want" character for me, not nearly a "expect" character.

 

[FalKoopa]

Yep. No one. Certainly not the villain with the most appearances in the series with the latest being in the last released main series Zelda game. One that could embody the magical properties of a heavyweight that people have asked for in Ganondorf and would make the roster 2 Links 2 Zeldas 2 Ganons.

CERTAINLY NOT. King of Porkness rises.

I support only one Pig King, I'm afraid.

In any case, I don't think Pig Ganon is that likely. Does he really have that much demand? Plus, I really don't want to see the Zelda roster essentially become 2 Links, 2 Zeldas and 2 Ganons, thank you very much. The Zelda series has more to it than that.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Yes, Sakurai himself said Ridley is 2big. That's about as objective as it gets.

Sakurai also added random tripping. But Sakurai can do no wrong, right?
It still is someone's opinion. He is the director, but so was Sakomoto and everyone says his decisions on various parts of Other M are bulls**.

 

[MainJPW]

Sakurai also added random tripping. But Sakurai can do no wrong, right?

I'm also pretty sure "2big" wasn't Sakurai's only reason.

 

[BluePikmin11]

"Young Link support is non-existent"
:T
Exaggerating.

There's plenty of people who want him back, most of them suggest a Majora's Mask based moveset.
He's still a pretty top candidate for DLC.

 

[Champ Gold]

Sakurai also added random tripping. But Sakurai can do no wrong, right?

Sakurai does a lot of things. Even some insane **** back in Melee (ie Fox's Up-Smash, Zelda in general and Roy's range).

He just thinks way differently than most people do. I blame Miyamoto and Iwata

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Potential characters are more interesting if we consider their abilities rather than, "This series needs another character. Let's arbitrarily add them because it should be represented!".

No thanks.

 

[Diddy Kong]

We've gone over Ganon's size and the Beast Ganon Final Smash at least 3 times, Diddy.

Ganon's bigger to Zelda as a series and meets certain fan demands for Smash. Impa has more direct popularity but one of her two biggest games is a side-game made by a 3rd party company.

His biggest appearance before LBW was Nintendo Land, and before that admittedly was FS Adventures.

I was talking on the grounds that it was "Impa or no one," which I will argue is not quite the case.

Yes but I think all these things coupled togheter really don't make Ganon all that likely. What he needs now mostly is a new console appearance, in a major Zelda game. Not that cardboard thing in NintendoLand. If NintendoLand did anything for characters, Takamaru wouldn't be an AT, he'd be playable.

 

[Burruni]

"Young Link support is non-existent"
:T
Exaggerating.

There's plenty of people who want him back, most of them suggest a Majora's Mask based moveset.
He's still a pretty top candidate for DLC.

While saying it doesn't exist is an exaggeration, saying he's a top candidate is something quite a few would argue is as well.

Majora's Mask moveset would either a) revolve around transformations, which are removed or b) constantly shifting through those forms in a fluid part of his moveset which sounds awkward in animation.

Edit: The MM moveset is the real grounds Young Link has to hold difference to who replaced him in Brawl. The only difference I can think of the two was that Yink's arrows had a fire property to them. This isn't a situation where all three can be somewhat distinct.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Potential characters are more interesting if we consider their abilities rather than, "This series needs another character. Let's arbitrarily add them because it should be represented!".

No thanks.

I already listed some stuff that SS Impa could do, it's still on this page even....

 

[MainJPW]

He just thinks way differently than most people do. I blame Miyamoto and Iwata

Lol.....Why?

 

[A Distant Demon]

i just went back to look at that reddit poll and young link didnt even get in the chart

and that is the place for melee fanboys

I know that poll is horribly misrepresentive (viewtiful joe beating dixie and captain toad) its the one place i would expect young link to have fans.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Top Zelda candidate. That's what I meant, that's what we are discussing right?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sakurai also added random tripping. But Sakurai can do no wrong, right?
It still is someone's opinion. He is the director, but so was Sakomoto and everyone says his decisions on various parts of Other M are bulls**.

Sakurai has been the director of Smash since it's first installment. To think another, far less experienced director would be able to make Ridley fit into Smash would be wayyyyy too optimistic. Up to the point of delusion maybe...

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I'm also pretty sure "2big" wasn't Sakurai's only reason.

Other reasons still are bulls**t:

• Ridley has infinite flight and it would have to be limited, but so does Kirby and Kirby 64 didn't happened before SSb64's release.
• Ridley would have to have his wings decreased in size, but only if pure Other M design was used. Its not like ZSS uses pure Other M design anyway, so, a completly new design could be done that would fix his wings size and tail length.
• Ridley wouldn't be as intimidating as when he is big, but thats not the only reason he is intimidating. The real reason is pretty much the way his boss battles are done - kill this murderous space dragon or get reckt within seconds. It gets even worse in Other M since here, most of his attacks take out entire energy tank (or most of it, don't remember, but thats very high). Being big is Kraid's (and few other bosses') thing, not Ridley's. If that would actually be the only reason why he is intimidating, then that piece of cr*p on Pyrosphere wouldn't be so laughable.

See? None of this is objective. This is just his opinion. Unfortunately, it matters too much. Like Sakomoto's opinions on how Other M should be handled.

Sakurai has been the director of Smash since it's first installment. To think another, far less experienced director would be able to make Ridley fit into Smash would be wayyyyy too optimistic. Up to the point of delusion maybe...

Same was said for the Villager. I guess every Villager player is a hacker or something.
And its not that hard to make him fit. No one knows if he would really fit until its done. Also, PMDT, despite not having professionals, can handle their own project well enough in many ways. Yes, they are not making it from scratch, but they do a lot more (or at least as much) than Sakurai does because they actually make all of this instead of saying "do this and that".
Let me also remind you that no one though Metroid Prime would work well when it was done not by Nintendo (well, it still was part of Nintendo, but not usual Iwata and co.) and was done in a pretty different way. But now MP is one of the best Metroid games, right there with Super Metroid.

 

[Champ Gold]

Lol.....Why?

Have you seen the things Shiggy has done? The man is great but he's out of his mind and running around looking for trouble.

The things he does can pretty much be insane and he can pretty ruin anything with his Willy Wonka mindset (see Wii Music, Sticker Star, the last few Zelda games, the whole no story thing for Galaxy, Star Fox Adventures and Wii Music)

Atleast I can trust him with Pikmin and Star Fox