Character Discussion Thread

[Wintropy]

Honestly, I could care less about whether a character is an "all-star" or not.

If the character is fun, works well, has some relation to Nintendo and makes people happy, that's good enough for me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, they were the only clones to return from Melee in Brawl and with major changes to their movesets, even if still using Fox and Falcon as a basis.

And of course, there's Toon Link, who pretty much replaced Young Link since Brawl and can be considered a spiritual successor.

We should've gotten Impa as the spiritual successor to Sheik. #Trufax

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Pichu's issue is that Sakurai SPECIFICALLY made Pichu to be bad, a joke character. Mewtwo ISN'T on the same boat. Mewtwo was planned back in 64 because he was such a heavy pull for Pokemon as basically a villain and an incredibly popular Pokemon. Mewtwo we know had incomplete data of programming for Brawl, unlike Pichu. Mewtwo has stayed popular and Gamefreak themselves, the people who hand pick the Pokemon showed off to Sakurai, gave Mewtwo and Charizard the special treatment of 2 Mega Evolutions (with Mewtwo being the debut of it and getting a film for this). You can have your support for the character, but don't say that he and Mewtwo were/are "on the same boat." And decloning... doesn't exactly make sense when he's the same species as Pikachu at a younger age (basically).

Let's... Let's talk about Roy. This is coming from a big Fire Emblem fan who has gone through all of the series except Tharacia 776. First off, when compared to the two returning Melee cuts, was planned as an alt and crammed into a playable slot near the winding stages of production. Got in from overwhelming support from Smash and Pokemon fans across the board. In a manner of speaking, he's the Ridley of Pokemon.


Roy, however, can not nearly be seen in comparison to Mewtwo despite them both had incomplete data in Brawl and were revived via Project M. As a protagonist he's one who is either considered average or plain bad with few supporters in terms of characters and actual stats by his home community.. As a Smash fighter, his flaming sword experience with a slower and harder hitting sword moveset was taken by and already has a resident clone that was put in last minute . His role and name have been taken with his home series not being stellar for him. And another issue is Roy doesn't have the star power in comparison to the big three representatives.
has two games in which he was the protagonist, the face of the series' beginning and the only games to be remade. His blood line have been made a MAJOR point for 13 and we see that same mark of the family present for the hoshido of IF.
is the protagonist of 9 and duo-protagonist of 10 with arguably the most polarizing protagonists of the series, the second time a character ever was a star for more than one game.
, representing the MyUnit customizable unit was first put in with 12 and made into a bigger role with 13 and now is going to be the sole helm for IF.

What do these three have in common? Major roles in multiple titles. Something quite rare for the series. Roy was he protagonist of 6 and had a two-line cameo was a 5 year old at the epilogue of 7 JUST TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE REALIZED IT'S A PREQUEL... TO THE GAME BEFORE IT.
He got new art in Awakening from it's DLC, yes. But so did Alm, Celica, Katrina, Micaiah, and even Ike did (and they didn't use it). He has to ride on his veteranism and little else in comparison to the overwhelming cry-out for who is the closest comparison Roy has. And... just to be another nail on this coffin, did Roy even recieve a trophy in Brawl, 3DS, or WiiU?

I'm a cynic, but I have some serious points that contribute to WHY I feel so doubtful.

1: I wasn't comparing Roy to Mewtwo. I agree that they are not comparable at all.
2: As far as I know all Sakuri said is that he was a joke character. That has nothing to do with purposely making him bad.

I just have to wonder if there is perhaps a character that could check off both of those boxes? Hmmmm......

That's a Trident.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We should've gotten Impa as the spiritual successor to Sheik. #Trufax

Then Zelda would have transformed into Impa

 

[Frostwraith]

We should've gotten Impa as the spiritual successor to Sheik. #Trufax

Thankfully, we didn't!

Toon Link and Young Link can be interpreted as the same character. Both play the same role as younger versions of Link. They are considered different characters in-series because Young Link in Melee is characterized as Link but younger, whereas Toon Link is characterized as a different incarnation or version of Link.

Impa and Sheik are different characters altogether.

And why do you say that Impa should replace Sheik and then say she would be unique with naginatas and whatnot, thus setting her apart from Sheik's ninja-like moveset? It doesn't make sense to replace a character like that, if those characters have clearly different roles and movesets. Your logic is contradictory and reeks of bias.

Thankfully, Sakurai understands this and doesn't go with some of the asinine ideas that are spouted here from time to time...

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Then Zelda would have transformed into Impa

Doe jij wel Smash broer?

Wow this is so funny to do.

But have you seen Zelda transform at all in Smash 4?

Impa as a Sheik clone bugs me, because while Sheik uses the ninja archetype to just fair fair fair you off-stage and go all athletic. Impa would have more power and less speed, but most off all be more defending (like how she defends Zelda in well, Zelda) with the infamous "Ghirahim-Barrier", Deku Nuts and Shadow stuff.

She might even use the original Dins Fire, since that is what you used to get in the Shadow Temple.
It might even be combined with the Blade-Eye-attack from HW.

Or if you wanna go all Sakurai, why not have her use Time to slow down enemies and speed up herself or even have an outright "aging" gimmick, where she can speed up time but she gets older or something

Tl.;dr Impa has the potential to ooze Zelda lore, since she is in so many games and has used, or has been implied to use or know so many tactics that after Hyrule Warriors, Impa in Smash would be the Zelda-love Zelda lovers need.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Doe jij wel Smash broer?

Wow this is so funny to do.

But have you seen Zelda transform at all in Smash 4?

Impa as a Sheik clone bugs me, because while Sheik uses the ninja archetype to just fair fair fair you off-stage and go all athletic. Impa would have more power and less speed, but most off all be more defending (like how she defends Zelda in well, Zelda) with the infamous "Ghirahim-Barrier", Deku Nuts and Shadow stuff.

She might even use the original Dins Fire, since that is what you used to get in the Shadow Temple.
It might even be combined with the Blade-Eye-attack from HW.

Or if you wanna go all Sakurai, why not have her use Time to slow down enemies and speed up herself or even have an outright "aging" gimmick, where she can speed up time but she gets older or something

Tl.;dr Impa has the potential to ooze Zelda lore, since she is in so many games and has used, or has been implied to use or know so many tactics that after Hyrule Warriors, Impa in Smash would be the Zelda-love Zelda lovers need.

You can't even speak Dutch grammatically correct!
Hoo Hah mentioned how Sheik shouod have been replaced with Impa like with Baby Link and Tink. I think Sheik shouldn't be cut but I feel Impa is deserving enough

 

[WeirdChillFever]

You can't even speak Dutch grammatically correct!
Hoo Hah mentioned how Sheik shouod have been replaced with Impa like with Baby Link and Tink. I think Sheik shouldn't be cut but I feel Impa is deserving enough

I really need that "That's the Joke" picture.

Yeah, I know what Hoo-Hah has said, but I said that didn't make sense since Impa isn't a girl that runs up to you and fairs you off-stage.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I just like to joke around with the idea from time to time... Sure, HW Impa and Sheik are completely different, but Skyward Sword Impa doesn't exactly have to be unique, she could be made a believable Sheik clone, semi-clone or replacement. But anyway, never mind, I still owe a Impa vote from @DustyPumpkin though.

 

[Frostwraith]

No characters should really be cut out of the way.

Sakurai himself is against that policy and character cuts are never positively received by the fanbase. For a good reason, as this is a huge crossover title, after all.

The only reason cuts happened thus far were due to time constraints, technical issues and other such problems. Expecting all previous characters to return is unrealistic, but it has become obvious that the Smash development team goes through lengths to avoid cuts as much possible.

Brawl has evidence of such and it says a lot when the first two DLC characters for Smash 4 are ones coming back from Melee and Brawl. Even without considering DLC, the transition from Brawl to Smash 4 only had 6 characters cut out of 39.

 

[Pazzo.]

It's a shame when characters get cut... especially characters that have next to no chance of returning....

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Lucas returned, that says enough

It's a shame when characters get cut... especially characters that have next to no chance of returning....

 

[Diddy Kong]

Lucas returning makes me think new semi-clones will happen, one obvious one being Dixie Kong.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Lucas returned, that says enough

Lucas had a great chance of returning.

Lucas returning makes me think new semi-clones will happen, one obvious one being Dixie Kong.

That implies that Lucas is a semi-clone though.

 

[Spazzy_D]

1: I wasn't comparing Roy to Mewtwo. I agree that they are not comparable at all.
2: As far as I know all Sakuri said is that he was a joke character. That has nothing to do with purposely making him bad.

That's a Trident.

tri·dent (noun) : a three-pronged spear, especially as an attribute of Poseidon (Neptune) or Britannia

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yes of course Lucas is a semi-clone, his moveset looks unchanged for the most part, only thing of a difference I could spot was that Lucas can now ground people with his D Throw, which is animation-wise the exact same attack as before...

Lucas is gonna be a semi-clone.

 

[Frostwraith]

Lucas returning makes me think new semi-clones will happen, one obvious one being Dixie Kong.

Depending on the characters, I'd say. Dixie Kong is the sort of character that could have some similarities to Diddy Kong, just like how Lucas is similar to Ness in some ways.

There's still Mewtwo, who is a unique character, so I think anything could happen.

Full clones are far less likely, unless they can squeeze some extra development time and certain characters from the ballot lend themselves to such a role. I wouldn't be surprised if Pichu and Roy returned that way.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yes of course Lucas is a semi-clone, his moveset looks unchanged for the most part, only thing of a difference I could spot was that Lucas can now ground people with his D Throw, which is animation-wise the exact same attack as before...

Lucas is gonna be a semi-clone.

Lucas was NEVER a semi-clone. Only their specials are similar. Lucas is as much of a semi-clone as Wolf.

tri·dent (noun) : a three-pronged spear, especially as an attribute of Poseidon (Neptune) or Britannia

Still a different weapon.

 

[Wolfie557]

Nearly all normal attacks look the same to me.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Still a different weapon.

It's a type of spear. That's like saying "it's not a sword, it's a katana!"

 

[Frostwraith]

The only similar moves Lucas has from Ness are the specials and even so they work differently; the Final Smash, and the side Smash attack. That's where the similarities end.

The animation work for the entire normal moves is completely different, thus giving the attacks different hit boxes. Overall, Lucas mainly uses kicks, whereas Ness mainly uses punches or hand-based attacks.

Examples:
- Down aerial deals multiple hits instead of a meteor Smash
- Back aerial is a meteor Smash
- Forward aerial is a single hit PSI-powered kick instead of multiple PSI bursts
- His grab has longer range and can be used as a tether recovery
- The up and down Smashes are completely different from Ness's yo-yo attacks

Now, if you say that Ness and Lucas follow the same concept, yeah, I agree. They both follow the concept of a young kid fighting with psychic powers, but they do take it in different directions.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

When I said Lucas I meant this: A character from a dead franchise that hasn't seen a game for nearly 10 years iirc. The creator doesn't want a sequel to be made. Theoretically Lucas should have no chance because he's too obscure

 

[Wolfie557]

When I said Lucas I meant this: A character from a dead franchise that hasn't seen a game for nearly 10 years iirc. The creator doesn't want a sequel to be made. Theoretically Lucas should have no chance because he's too obscure

I'm sure he said if someone else wanted to do it then he would be fine with it.

Anyway, I'm VERY hopeful Wolf makes it as DLC as well..... He can't be hard make since he is only from Brawl and they can reuse a lot of things.

 

[Troykv]

The only similar moves Lucas has from Ness are the specials and even so they work differently; the Final Smash, and the side Smash attack. That's where the similarities end.

The animation work for the entire normal moves is completely different, thus giving the attacks different hit boxes. Overall, Lucas mainly uses kicks, whereas Ness mainly uses punches or hand-based attacks.

Examples:
- Down aerial deals multiple hits instead of a meteor Smash
- Back aerial is a meteor Smash
- Forward aerial is a single hit PSI-powered kick instead of multiple PSI bursts
- His grab has longer range and can be used as a tether recovery
- The up and down Smashes are completely different from Ness's yo-yo attacks

Now, if you say that Ness and Lucas follow the same concept, yeah, I agree. They both follow the concept of a young kid fighting with psychic powers, but they do take it in different directions.

And the body type and weight?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Nearly all normal attacks look the same to me.

All of them are different exept his Down Tilt and Forward Smash. SmashWiki says that they are semiclones because their physics are different.
So they're saying:
Take Ness. Give him a completely different moveset except for his specials. (Of which are only similar)=Semi-clone
Take Fox. Give him a completely different moveset except for his specials. (Of which are only similar) Alter his physics slightly.=Not a semi-clone.
Logic.

 

[Frostwraith]

And the body type and weight?

I think those are the same. Their designs are almost identical, after all.

 

[Wolfie557]

I just like to joke around with the idea from time to time... Sure, HW Impa and Sheik are completely different, but Skyward Sword Impa doesn't exactly have to be unique, she could be made a believable Sheik clone, semi-clone or replacement. But anyway, never mind, I still owe a Impa vote from @DustyPumpkin though.

Even a NON-HW Impa is unique....

 

[Strofirko]

I think someone who has a lot of backup to return but has no chance to it is .

Unless sakurai wants to take the risk to please a certain part of the community but jerk off with gigantic part of it.

 

[Troykv]

All of them are different exept his Down Tilt and Forward Smash. SmashWiki says that they are semiclones because their physics are different.
So they're saying:
Take Ness. Give him a completely different moveset except for his specials. (Of which are only similar)=Semi-clone
Take Fox. Give him a completely different moveset except for his specials. (Of which are only similar) Alter his physics slightly.=Not a semi-clone.
Logic.

Well. Wolf don't have Fox's DTilt or Side Smash. And Wolf have different hitbox.

 

[Frostwraith]

I divide clones in three categories:
1. Full clone - Shares the same moveset overall, except for overall difference in proprieties and may have a few unique moves. Shares most, if not all, animations as the base.
Examples:

2. Semi-clone - Same as a clone, but with more differentiated features and more unique moves. The animation work is altered further as well.
Examples:

3. Pseudo-clone - Has some similar moves and a similar moveset concept as the base, but also has a plethora of different moves and animations, often outnumbering the amount of similar moves.
Examples:

Note: I excluded Smash 64 because I never played the game to tell how I feel about the cloned characters in that game.

Trivia: Melee didn't have any character on the third category, Brawl didn't have characters on the first and Smash 4 has clones in all three categories.

 

[Curious Villager]

I divide clones in three categories:
1. Full clone - Shares the same moveset overall, except for overall difference in proprieties and may have a few unique moves. Shares most, if not all, animations as the base.
Examples:

2. Semi-clone - Same as a clone, but with more differentiated features and more unique moves. The animation work is altered further as well.
Examples:

3. Pseudo-clone - Has some similar moves and a similar moveset concept as the base, but also has a plethora of different moves and animations, often outnumbering the amount of similar moves.
Examples:

Note: I excluded Smash 64 because I never played the game to tell how I feel about the cloned characters in that game.

Trivia: Melee didn't have any character on the third category, Brawl didn't have characters on the first and Smash 4 has clones in all three categories.

The only clone Smash 64 really had was Luigi and some may say Jigglypuff was a "Semi/Pseudo-clone" although a few characters shared one or two similar animations here and there back then until they where refreshed in Melee.

 

[Frostwraith]

I think someone who has a lot of backup to return but has no chance to it is .

Unless sakurai wants to take the risk to please a certain part of the community but jerk off with gigantic part of it.

Because Sakurai cares about the haters, right?

Haters can just, you know, not buy the DLC. There's the option of choice this time.

If there are fans of Roy who want him back in Smash, him being back would please them, and that's all that matters.

Even myself, who thinks that Wolf, Mewtwo and Lucas are all the DLC Smash 4's roster needs, would be happy for another veteran character to return from Melee after Dr. Mario and Mewtwo.

More characters are always better in a crossover title that joins more than a dozen different gaming universes, especially if they have fans who like them.

So what if Roy is a clone? He was fun to play as in Melee. If he's brought back and is fun to play as in Smash 4, the game is enhanced as a result.

 

[Troykv]

I divide clones in three categories:
1. Full clone - Shares the same moveset overall, except for overall difference in proprieties and may have a few unique moves. Shares most, if not all, animations as the base.
Examples:

2. Semi-clone - Same as a clone, but with more differentiated features and more unique moves. The animation work is altered further as well.
Examples:

3. Pseudo-clone - Has some similar moves and a similar moveset concept as the base, but also has a plethora of different moves and animations, often outnumbering the amount of similar moves.
Examples:

Note: I excluded Smash 64 because I never played the game to tell how I feel about the cloned characters in that game.

Trivia: Melee didn't have any character on the third category, Brawl didn't have characters on the first and Smash 4 has clones in all three categories.

Luigi 64 is a Full Mario's Clon and Purin 64 is a Kirby's semi or pseudo clon

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ok. So I get that people don't want Young Link and the Pokémon Trainer now. But don't say they shouldn't come back next smash. It's possible. But that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is arguments like these:
a joke character that deserves to die alone. (Like it or not guys, Pichu is a veteran. And all veterans deserve to come back at some point.)
same name as (Not a good argument. This actually helps Roy because they could reuse voice clips.)
Pokémon is overrepped. (I heard someone once say that because Pokémon has 700+ characters, you could have about 100 and not overrep them. While I agree having more Pokémon series characters than the whole roster combined is way too much, two more Pokémon aren't going to take over the roster.)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok. So I get that people don't want Young Link and the Pokémon Trainer now. But don't say they shouldn't come back next smash. It's possible. But that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is arguments like these:
a joke character that deserves to die alone. (Like it or not guys, Pichu is a veteran. And all veterans deserve to come back at some point.)
same name as (Not a good argument. This actually helps Roy because they could reuse voice clips.)
Pokémon is overrepped. (I heard someone once say that because Pokémon has 700+ characters, you could have about 100 and not overrep them. While I agree having more Pokémon series characters than the whole roster combined is way too much, two more Pokémon aren't going to take over the roster.)

Pokemon Trainer is counted as a different character, I'd rather have the pokemon as seperate characters, then I get a down B move

 

[Wolfie557]

Ok. So I get that people don't want Young Link and the Pokémon Trainer now. But don't say they shouldn't come back next smash. It's possible. But that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is arguments like these:
a joke character that deserves to die alone. (Like it or not guys, Pichu is a veteran. And all veterans deserve to come back at some point.)
same name as (Not a good argument. This actually helps Roy because they could reuse voice clips.)
Pokémon is overrepped. (I heard someone once say that because Pokémon has 700+ characters, you could have about 100 and not overrep them. While I agree having more Pokémon series characters than the whole roster combined is way too much, two more Pokémon aren't going to take over the roster.)

I disagree. There's some that shouldn't have been fighters imo. (namely Pich & poke trainer human since he is just a background. no offence.)

I understand ones like Dr.Mario since he started out like an alt (at least in Smash4) and are good enough. Also, I simply don't want Pichu because I don't like him, but it would be fine if he returned in Sma5h.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I disagree. There's some that shouldn't have been fighters imo. (namely Pich & poke trainer human since he is just a background. no offence.)

I understand ones like Dr.Mario since he started out like an alt (at least in Smash4) and are good enough. Also, I simply don't want Pichu because I don't like him, but it would be fine if he returned in Sma5h.

I thought the same about Greninja. But now that he's in I don't want him to leave.

 

[MagnesD3]

Honestly, I could care less about whether a character is an "all-star" or not.

If the character is fun, works well, has some relation to Nintendo and makes people happy, that's good enough for me.

I like standards, sadly smashes standards are pretty low.

 

[Troykv]

I like standards, sadly smashes standards are pretty low.

What are your standards?

And since when Wolf is an "All Star"?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

3rd party standards are different from 1st party standards. Very different.

It goes without saying that a character from another company should bring star power. Certain characters do that, others do not.