Character Discussion Thread

[ihskeyp]

needs to be fixed, his down and side B are almost the same and it is boring
also needs fixing. She needs more buffs than her back throw

Zelda's recovery is a KO move now, she killed Fox with it in a video when he was only at like 42%. And D.I. Is les prominent in this game, which already makes all of her smash attacks better. Her neutral b was made with less ending lag and the crystal was made bigger. She falls faster. Dins fire still sucks, but if you sweet spot it, it can actually do serious damage now. She's had more buffs than you think.

 

[Niala]

Ok, so I know this never really ends well, but I've decided to put down my thoughts on Bandana Dee.

How Do I feel about Bandana Dee?

I personally like him. I find him cute. His personality is lovable as well. As a potential smash character, I think both the supporters and detractors have the wrong idea here.

I think it is important to analyze the fact that Bandana Dee is a Waddle Dee. I of course understand the detractors will continue to say that being based off a generic enemy is bad and the supporters will probably continue pushing Bandana Dee as his own thing, but I think you guys should hear me out.

The thing is there really isn't that much that has been said about Bandana Dee by the developers. However, the developers have said a couple of things about Waddle Dees in general that I think we should look into because they answers some question some people may have.

This isn't me trying to "shove down people's throats" or to really convince people to like Bandana Dee. I honestly don't care. I just want to analyze a side of the argument that both supporters and detractors alike choose to ignore.

Now, I'll be using this book to show evidence:

Spoiler

Personality

The first thing I want to address is personality. I've seen a lot of people ask about what is Bandana Dee's personality as well as people claiming he has none.

There is actually an official statement about what Waddle Dee's personality is.

Spoiler

"The Kirby Universe is filled with interesting characters, each designed with a unique personality in mind. Waddle Dee, for example, is "loveable and earnest," and Dyna Blade "must look cool!" - Page 6

It's important to note that not only did they give Waddle Dee a personality, they also describe his personality as "unique."

Another thing to note is that this was before Triple Deluxe actually made Bandana Dee's name into "Bandana Dee." It's hard to tell if he means Waddle Dees in general, Bandana Dee specifically, or both.

It should also be noted that we could also add loyal to his personality if we want to add the events of "Revenge of the King" to this.

Lastly, "lovable" proves Bandana Dee was designed to be popular.

Speaking of which.

Popularity & Appearances

Spoiler

"Cute little Waddle Dee has become one of the most beloved characters in the kirby series." Page 18

I often hear that Bandana Dee isn't really all that popular. While there is nothing that proves Bandana Dee himself, Waddle dee is actually quite a loved character.

I think we need to establish something at this point. Bandana Dee is pretty much Captain Toad to the T. Right down to the "generic version" of the character being popular and been there since the beginning.

When it comes down to it, Bandana Dee is an important part of the Kirby series and is completely justified if he makes it into Smash...Though flip side to all this is that it's still perfectly reasonable for Bandana Dee not to be playable yet. Just like Captain Toad, Bandana Dee hasn't had all that time to grow.

With that said, Bandana Dee and Captain Toad would make perfect DLC characters I think, because at that point, they can take inspiration from Triple Deluxe and 3D World.

...

Moveset Potential.

Ok, this is mainly for @Scoliosis Jones and @Johnknight1

If anyone else who wants to see a moveset from me not designed entirely around the spear, you can go to the Bandana Dee thread.

Anyway, backstory.

So I was playing a game called Bravely Default. I played a bunch of it and at the time I was using the Valkyrie class. Experts at using spears. I was using the Valkyrie class when I unlocked a skill called Pierce Default. What it essential does is allow you to do conventional damage to an enemy that is guarding.

So now we are here. So here's a moveset based around specials destroying shields.

So first off we are copying Bowser Bomb and calling it Moondrop. Take Marth's Sheildbreaker and call it Spear thrust. Now he has two moves that can break shields.

Next is spear throw, Due to the arch it makes when it's thrown, this move is designed to make your opponent come in close. If the enemy is close to you, they are much more likely to shield.

Then finally Spear-coptor. You first have to charge this up special, but after you do, you are free to move anywhere. Up, down, left, right. After you run out of juice, you gently start to float down, which you can cancel with an attack. The spear-copter as an attack is actually dangerous, as it combos quite well. This would also, you guessed it, help break shields.

His smash/tilt attacks would probably also help in breaking shields as well as intercepting rolls.

Bandana Dee would have the worst shield and roll in the game. His weight is heavier then Meta Knight but not by much. He also falls faster then normal. (Thats a thing right?)

Bandana Dee is pretty much designed to be an anti-defensive character. With his ability to break shields, a long reaching weapon, and the ability to throw a projectile of his own.

Unfortunately, as soon as you get close, he becomes highly vulnerable. He can be combo'ed easily and is a lightweight. He also doesn't have many kill moves. Which is why he has to rely on breaking a characters shield.

Bandana Dee is basically the equivalent of saying "Offense is the best defense" as plenty of his attacks can technically "defend" him seeing as how long his spear is.

That's pretty much all I can think of right now. I also heard that he might make a good zoning character. Unfortunately, I don't know what zoning is, so I don't know how to handle that.



Sorry, if this had nothing to do with the current character being discussed. I really just wanted to make this analysis amazing and fair so it took quite a bit of time.

I just want to state again that I don't care if people don't like him. I'm also fine with him not making it as a playable character in smash. However, I want people to be a bit more knowledgeable with Bandana/Waddle Dee in the kirby franchise.

I've always said I knew little about Bandana Dee, however I feel quite edified after having read this. Thanks for posting it!

 

[KingIceSonic]

Zelda's recovery is a KO move now, she killed Fox with it in a video when he was only at like 42%. And D.I. Is les prominent in this game, which already makes all of her smash attacks better. Her neutral b was made with less ending lag and the crystal was made bigger. She falls faster. Dins fire still sucks, but if you sweet spot it, it can actually do serious damage now. She's had more buffs than you think.

Dyns fire is harder to control though. And even at maximum range it isn't THAT much damaging. Her down tilt was also technically nerfed, it does more knock back which means it won't be able to combo into. Plus her down grab is so weak in terms of percentage.Zelda did get a lot of buffs but they don't really help her to not be low. But then again the game hasn't come out so I can't say too much about tier placement

 

[ihskeyp]

Dyns fire is harder to control though. And even at maximum range it isn't THAT much damaging. Her down tilt was also technically nerfed, it does more knock back which means it won't be able to combo into. Plus her down grab is so weak in terms of percentage.Zelda did get a lot of buffs but they don't really help her to not be low. But then again the game hasn't come out so I can't say too much about tier placement

Zelda's never been a combo-heavy character, but her down tilt not having much knock-back could actually make it a combo move, because the character is open for a follow-up attack. And yes, dins fire is still a pretty awful move, but if you sweet spot a character with high percentage, you can actually KO with it now, which is a slight buff. Her down grab isn't great, but her back throw is buffed greatly (just like most characters throws). I feel like they are at least attempting to make her better.

 

[Scamper52596]

We have to remember that the Smash 4 demo was just that. A demo. An older build at that. We should reserve full judgement on Zelda's buffs, nerfs, and general concerns until we play as her after the retail release of the game.

 

[TumblrFamous]

We have to remember that the Smash 4 demo was just that. A demo. An older build at that. We should reserve full judgement on Zelda's buffs, nerfs, and general concerns until we play as her after the retail release of the game.

Inb4 they deem Farore's Wind too powerful and nerf her even more.

 

[ihskeyp]

We have to remember that the Smash 4 demo was just that. A demo. An older build at that. We should reserve full judgement on Zelda's buffs, nerfs, and general concerns until we play as her after the retail release of the game.

Yeah, but discussing her buffs in the demo is still interesting, to see where they are trying to with her this time around.

Inb4 they deem Farore's Wind too powerful and nerf her even more.

I would file ALL the complaints lol

 

[FlareHabanero]

Inb4 they deem Farore's Wind too powerful and nerf her even more.

Because Farore's Wind was so useful to begin with.

 

[ihskeyp]

Because Farore's Wind was so useful to begin with.

It was actually a pretty great KO move in the demo.

 

[Espio264]

Thoughts on Dark Pit:

No. Just no.

Before I begin, I have not played KI Uprising. I know nothing about his personality, importance to the plot, or even his differences from Pit, but I don't find these relevant to my point. I don't mind clones, but Dark Pit falls into a different category. He is a dark doppelganger character, which links him to Pit to his very core. His very purpose is to be a foil. Other dark doppelgangers we've seen are Dark Samus and Shadow. Sakurai clearly finds them important enough to be represented as assist trophies, but not as playable characters. (Shadow being a third party is a special case, plus he doesn't deserve in before Knux or Tails, but that's a different argument.) Dark Pit should be considered less than these two. Dark Samus and Shadow may resemble their counterparts, but are physically different in both design and gait. Dark Pit is more or less a palette swap, regardless of personality. This goes in his favor making him an easier clone to execute than Dark Samus or Shadow would be. But just because it's easy, does it make it worthwhile?

Lucina is not a foil for Marth. She's a seperate entity who was created because of... family trees and birds and the bees and so forth. The others' primary function is to antagonize the hero (don't give me Shadow's back story, Sonic Team's purpose was for him to be a Dark Sonic). Same goes for Falco, Ganondorf, Lucas, Toon Link, etc. Wolf is another weird exception, he is more of the Sabretooth to Fox's Wolverine. Regardless, these clones are worthy character inclusions who don't depend on the character they are cloned from.

Dark Pit is not a Nintendo All Star. At least not yet. (Don't give me your 's, there wasn't a light/hero Greninja that he was based from beforehand. He's at least an original idea). There are plenty of All stars still out there (Isaac, Ridley, Mewtwo, K. Rool, Dixie, Paper Mario, TOAD!) that are more deserving of at least making it in as last minute, half @$$ed clones, before a palette swap gets his own slot.

Sakurai has yet to disappoint me by the scope of this game, but giving Dark Pit a roster spot would be a swift kick to the nads.

I feel similarly about Dr. Mario being a seperate character, but at least he's more than a palette swap.

However, all can be forgiven for the doubleheaded Mewtwo/Falco monster riding Ridley on the box art.

 

[Khoru]

so wait, someone please explain to me why there are a) a limited number of slots, and b) padding the roster with clones takes as much time as making new characters

 

[Scamper52596]

Yeah, but discussing her buffs in the demo is still interesting, to see where they are trying to with her this time around.

Feel free to discuss Zelda as much as you want. I'm just reminding everyone that not everything is set in stone, so they don't feel like Zelda is a worthless character. She could be a little more buffed in the final version. I actually think that the buffs and nerfs alike are interesting decisions, and I'm looking forward to seeing how everything pans out in the end when we compare Zelda to the demo version of the game.

 

[ihskeyp]

so wait, someone please explain to me why there are a) a limited number of slots, and b) padding the roster with clones takes as much time as making new characters

A) there isn't, the only thing holding characters back is time constraints.

B) it doesn't, clones are quickly created to beef up the roster, original characters take a much longer time to create.

 

[Weeman]

Thoughts on Dark Pit:

No. Just no.

Before I begin, I have not played KI Uprising. I know nothing about his personality, importance to the plot, or even his differences from Pit, but I don't find these relevant to my point. I don't mind clones, but Dark Pit falls into a different category. He is a dark doppelganger character, which links him to Pit to his very core. His very purpose is to be a foil. Other dark doppelgangers we've seen are Dark Samus and Shadow. Sakurai clearly finds them important enough to be represented as assist trophies, but not as playable characters. (Shadow being a third party is a special case, plus he doesn't deserve in before Knux or Tails, but that's a different argument.) Dark Pit should be considered less than these two. Dark Samus and Shadow may resemble their counterparts, but are physically different in both design and gait. Dark Pit is more or less a palette swap, regardless of personality. This goes in his favor making him an easier clone to execute than Dark Samus or Shadow would be. But just because it's easy, does it make it worthwhile?

Lucina is not a foil for Marth. She's a seperate entity who was created because of... family trees and birds and the bees and so forth. The others' primary function is to antagonize the hero (don't give me Shadow's back story, Sonic Team's purpose was for him to be a Dark Sonic). Same goes for Falco, Ganondorf, Lucas, Toon Link, etc. Wolf is another weird exception, he is more of the Sabretooth to Fox's Wolverine. Regardless, these clones are worthy character inclusions who don't depend on the character they are cloned from.

Dark Pit is not a Nintendo All Star. At least not yet. (Don't give me your 's, there wasn't a light/hero Greninja that he was based from beforehand. He's at least an original idea). There are plenty of All stars still out there (Isaac, Ridley, Mewtwo, K. Rool, Dixie, Paper Mario, TOAD!) that are more deserving of at least making it in as last minute, half @$$ed clones, before a palette swap gets his own slot.

Sakurai has yet to disappoint me by the scope of this game, but giving Dark Pit a roster spot would be a swift kick to the nads.

I feel similarly about Dr. Mario being a seperate character, but at least he's more than a palette swap.

However, all can be forgiven for the doubleheaded Mewtwo/Falco monster riding Ridley on the box art.

That's pretty much what they did with Lucina, so it's not out of the question.

 

[Khoru]

A) there isn't, the only thing holding characters back is time constraints.

B) it doesn't, clones are quickly created to beef up the roster, original characters take a much longer time to create.

precisely

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

How long does it take to port over an existing character and touch them up for a new game? Like Fox, who looks virtually unchanged.

 

[ElPanandero]

precisely

I'm confused? What are you talking about? Are for clones or against them?

 

[~Krystal~]

If you could have 5 clones or 1 original character, which would you pick?

 

[Espio264]

That's pretty much what they did with Lucina, so it's not out of the question.

When they give Dark Pit a sex change and a future storyline that doesn't involve screwing with Pit, then I'll consider him.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

If you could have 5 clones or 1 original character, which would you pick?

Depends on who they are.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If you could have 5 clones or 1 original character, which would you pick?

5 clones, Dixie, Dark Pit, Hades, Lucas, and Dr. Mario would be the ones I would add personally.

 

[Scamper52596]

Depends on who they are.

I concur. Can we pick what clone characters they would be?

 

[Espio264]

If you could have 5 clones or 1 original character, which would you pick?

If you could have Isaac as a Robin clone, or Orange Mario, Blue Dk, Purple Link, Green Kirby and Yellow Yoshi all as seperate characters, which would you pick?

 

[~Krystal~]

I concur. Can we pick what clone characters they would be?

Yes, you can choose who they would be in deciding which you'd want.

If you could have Isaac as a Robin clone, or Orange Mario, Blue Dk, Purple Link, Green Kirby and Yellow Yoshi all as seperate characters, which would you pick?

I would choose Orange Mario, Blue DK, etc. This is assuming they play differently enough from the non-colored counterparts to not even be considered semi-clones.

 

[ElPanandero]

If it's clones vs. most of the suppossed newcomers (Shulk, Ridley, Chorus dudes) I'd probably go with clones. Unless the newcomer is Issac or a handful of other select characters, or the clones were silly (Dark Pit)

 

[Pizzanigs]

If you could have Isaac as a Robin clone, or Orange Mario, Blue Dk, Purple Link, Green Kirby and Yellow Yoshi all as seperate characters, which would you pick?

Is this even a question...? I'd choose Isaac without a doubt.

 

[Espio264]

I would choose Orange Mario, Blue DK, etc. This is assuming they play differently enough from the non-colored counterparts to not even be considered semi-clones.

Nope. Straight clones. In fact, no more than palette swaps.

Is this even a question...? I'd choose Isaac without a doubt.

Just trying to illustrate my "Dark Pit's a lame idea" defense. It's been a long day. I wanna hit somebody.

 

[~Krystal~]

Nope. Straight clones. In fact, no more than palette swaps.

In that case, I would go with Isaac. If the palette swaps have no redeeming qualities, I could just as easily play as them in changing their color on the CSS.

 

[Autumn ♫]

@ Autumn ♫ , I'm sorry, but I never tough of this trophy theory. I would still want vaati more than Ghirahim, but unfortunately, I can't deny this. We had the same support situation before that stage reveal which unbalanced everything.

Don't worry, you just helped me find another reason why the trophy theory helps Vaati as much as Ghirahim without even meaning to.
So now I got that the opposite against Zelda is Vaati and Vaati is sealed inside the 4 Sword like Fi is sealed inside the Master Sword. I think I might decide to start believeing in the trophy theory soon.

 

[Pizzanigs]

Just trying to illustrate my "Dark Pit's a lame idea" defense. It's been a long day. I wanna hit somebody.

You think Dark Pit's a lame idea too?!

 

[Weeman]

When they give Dark Pit a sex change and a future storyline that doesn't involve screwing with Pit, then I'll consider him.

But this isn't about you considering him, Dark Pit was probably a prime candidate for alternate costumes, wether he stayed one or was decided to be made his own character is something that the developing team decided, so if he is in the roster he wouldn't be taking anyone's slot, he'd just be lucky enough to be an easy to make clone.

 

[ElPanandero]

You think Dark Pit's a lame idea too?!

I think most of us do, Morbid is just so persistent it seems like he has more support

 

[Espio264]

But this isn't about you considering him, Dark Pit was probably a prime candidate for alternate costumes, wether he stayed one or was decided to be made his own character is something that the developing team decided, so if he is in the roster he wouldn't be taking anyone's slot, he'd just be lucky enough to be an easy to make clone.

I'm still against him, but your optimism and well thought out response are to be commended. Thank you sir for not biting my head off.

 

[ElPanandero]

I'm still against him, but your optimism and well thought out response are to be commended. Thank you sir for not biting my head off.

I think part of the issue is how we perceive clones and character slots, the melee CSS was a mess because they tacked the clones on and shuffled it around as best they could, in brawl, which was pushed back with delays, didn't have time to add unplanned last minute clones (to our knowledge, I think all the clones were planned) and chaarcters even had to be cut (though dev time may or may not be the reason) which gave us the pretty CSS we have in Brawl and the one we all make when we do our rosters. If Dark pit is a melee clone, then who cares, if he's a brawl clone, that's where I'd be irked slightly

 

[Espio264]

I think part of the issue is how we perceive clones and character slots, the melee CSS was a mess because they tacked the clones on and shuffled it around as best they could, in brawl, which was pushed back with delays, didn't have time to add unplanned last minute clones (to our knowledge, I think all the clones were planned) and chaarcters even had to be cut (though dev time may or may not be the reason) which gave us the pretty CSS we have in Brawl and the one we all make when we do our rosters. If Dark pit is a melee clone, then who cares, if he's a brawl clone, that's where I'd be irked slightly

I feel he'd be a "Brawl clone" either way.

Ganondorf isn't just CF with a black cape.
Falco isn't just Fox with feathers.
Lucas isn't just Ness with a cowlick.
And despite what a lot of people think, Lucina adds more than just Marth with boobs.

But Dark Pit is just Pit with a dye job and some angst. Whether he's planned or last minute, he's still a dark doppelganger with little to physically differentiate himself from the original.

 

[Kenith]

If you could have 5 clones or 1 original character, which would you pick?

Five clones.

Dr.Mario = Mario.
Medusa = Palutena, same moves with dark effects
Black Shadow = Ganondorf, Ganondorf gets original moveset
Ghirahim = Sheik, slower, stronger, with a few different moves
Zoroark = Lucario, faster with no Aura.

Edit: for the one original newcomer, I would choose Ridley.

 

[Niala]

I feel he'd be a "Brawl clone" either way.

Ganondorf isn't just CF with a black cape.
Falco isn't just Fox with feathers.
Lucas isn't just Ness with a cowlick.
And despite what a lot of people think, Lucina adds more than just Marth with boobs.

But Dark Pit is just Pit with a dye job and some angst. Whether he's planned or last minute, he's still a dark doppelganger with little to physically differentiate himself from the original.

I agree with everything in this post except Lucina. Let's be honest, Marth's chest is bigger than her's.

 

[Espio264]

I agree with everything in this post except Lucina. Let's be honest, Marth's chest is bigger than her's.

Fine then. She's more than Marth with long hair and less trendy boots.

 

[mark welford]

me I don't ask or beg for characters I take whatever comes it is like going with the flow im always excited to see a new character announced for the game although this is the 1st time I have worry so bad about a character that I have lost sleep

 

[~Krystal~]

Five clones.

Dr.Mario = Mario.
Medusa = Palutena, same moves with dark effects
Black Shadow = Ganondorf, Ganondorf gets original moveset
Ghirahim = Sheik, slower, stronger, with a few different moves
Zoroark = Lucario, faster with no Aura.

Edit: for the one original newcomer, I would choose Ridley.

Good choices. So if forced to pick, would you take the group of Dr. Mario, Medusa, Black Shadow, Ghirahim and Zoroark, or would you take Ridley?