Character Discussion Thread

[Morbi]

Ganondorf? Getting replaced?

I hate to say, but most sane speculators don't see that happening in a million years. We've historically been hesitant on another Zelda newcomer too for the most part.

Lies and deceit! My dear friend; Pacack, you are being quite facetious. Most sane speculators have anticipated Ganondorf's removal ever since his tier placement changed to bottom tier... why include a character that no one wants to play?! He does not even use his sword, what a loser! Sakurai does not wish to give Ganondorf a new move-set, obviously. So it is more practical to replace him with the fabulous Lord Ghirahim. Everyone knows this to be true! Why are you pretending that his replacement would never happen "in a million years" when it is all but confirmed that he will indeed be replaced? Are you, perhaps, attempting to delay the inevitable? I am afraid that you cannot change Sakurai's mind, he decided that he was biased because he mains Ganondorf, so naturally he has to remove him from the game... for balance purposes. Please understand...

 

[Kenith]

I'm the most devoted Ghirahim supporter there is and I would laugh you in the face for claiming he'd replace Ganon.

Big bad ain't going anywhere.

 

[~Krystal~]

Lies and deceit! My dear friend; Pacack, you are being quite facetious. Most sane speculators have anticipated Ganondorf's removal ever since his tier placement changed to bottom tier... why include a character that no one wants to play?! He does not even use his sword, what a loser! Sakurai does not wish to give Ganondorf a new move-set, obviously. So it is more practical to replace him with the fabulous Lord Ghirahim. Everyone knows this to be true! Why are you pretending that his replacement would never happen "in a million years" when it is all but confirmed that he will indeed be replaced? Are you, perhaps, attempting to delay the inevitable? I am afraid that you cannot change Sakurai's mind, he decided that he was biased because he mains Ganondorf, so naturally he has to remove him from the game... for balance purposes. Please understand...

What's with the sarcasm? It's that or a 6th Zelda character. A second villain at that. Which do you think is more likely?

 

[XLIFE]

The thought had occurred to me, but I actually suspect they'll ignore the slip-up entirely. A marginal selection of the fans would have ever noted something like that for the minuscule time frame it was available. If he does appear in the next trailer, along with something like the Chorus Men, I doubt that will have been the reason.

Same here, but honestly I'm fine with a RH rep as long as it's Karate Joe or the Wrestler, CM has always left a bitter taste for me.

 

[Morbi]

What's with the sarcasm? It's that or a 6th Zelda character. A second villain at that. Which do you think is more likely?

The latter, definitely the latter. The latter by a significant extent. Objectively speaking... the latter. The latter. THE LATTER!

I'm the most devoted Ghirahim supporter there is and I would laugh you in the face for claiming he'd replace Ganon.

Big bad ain't going anywhere.

This.

 

[Kenith]

Confession: I think Skull Kid would've been the ideal choice for sixth Zelda character.

Though his move set might have been a stretch in some places.

 

[Pacack]

What's with the sarcasm? It's that or a 6th Zelda character. A second villain at that. Which do you think is more likely?

A second villain.

 

[~Krystal~]

Then you're adding Ghirahim to your prediction rosters for style points?

 

[Rockaphin]

Lies and deceit! My dear friend; Pacack, you are being quite facetious. Most sane speculators have anticipated Ganondorf's removal ever since his tier placement changed to bottom tier... why include a character that no one wants to play?! He does not even use his sword, what a loser! Sakurai does not wish to give Ganondorf a new move-set, obviously. So it is more practical to replace him with the fabulous Lord Ghirahim. Everyone knows this to be true! Why are you pretending that his replacement would never happen "in a million years" when it is all but confirmed that he will indeed be replaced? Are you, perhaps, attempting to delay the inevitable? I am afraid that you cannot change Sakurai's mind, he decided that he was biased because he mains Ganondorf, so naturally he has to remove him from the game... for balance purposes. Please understand...

I don't know why Bowser was even in Brawl. And now, they have the nerve to bring him back in this installment! You'd think after two games they'd cut such a non-viable character. His son, Morton Koopa, should replace him. You know the saying though, third times the charm.

 

[Pacack]

Then you're adding Ghirahim to your prediction rosters for style points?

Mainly just because they like the character and because adding him (along with Ganondorf, mind you) isn't impossible in the slightest. It makes him ideal for prediction/want combination rosters.

 

[Niala]

Same here, but honestly I'm fine with a RH rep as long as it's Karate Joe or the Wrestler, CM has always left a bitter taste for me.

I'll admit I know little to nothing about Rhythm Heaven other than it's a rhythm based game, which is actually quite odd to me given my history with rhythm games and general aptitude with music... But I digress. However meager my knowledge might be, I was interested by the Chorus Men initially, and would more readily stand behind them than another character about whom I know even less.

That being said, I would basically be perfectly fine with any addition from the series, I'm just directly interested by the Chorus Men moreso than others.

 

[Nintendotard]

With the topic of villains, with all the female love we need some villain love too dammit! The dream of a villains trailer is real <3.

There's no one that can really be represented from Mario that's a big villain aside from Jr. and as much as people want Fawful, I have no hope for him unfortunately.

Legend of Zelda has a huge collection of villains, but only some are worth while. No one wants Zant for some reason, Skull Kid is gone, Yuga seems too new but we have Greninja so that shouldn't be a problem.

Kirby is not going to add another villain most likely if they decide to give them another rep.

Pokemon doesn't even really have villains, but Mewtwo can somewhat be considered as one.

Donkey Kong's hopes for villains lie in K. Rool while Yoshi is not going to get any villain reps if they get another one.

Samus. Ridley. Nuff said. I feel like none of the other villain-esque characters can fit the role like Ridley can. (no pun intended)

Star Fox is only going to add Krystal if they add anyone

In F-Zero we could get Black Shadow and smack Falcondorf's moveset to him. Would work out perfectly if they were to revise Ganondorf a lot.

Earthbound/Mother is all for Porky but I could not see him making it in.

Kid Icarus is most likely staying at two.

And from that it seems like theres not that many notable villains in the other series. :\ dang

 

[Kenith]

I feel I have come a long way in my speculation. Before I was a just a fanboy.
I added Ghirahim to my roster because I wanted him. I kept him because I figured out why he could feasibly actually be included.

I knew from the start, on my first roster before even joining these boards, that he was an unpopular choice and I would get ridiculed for trying to justify it.

But I'm more confident than ever now. After seeing Lucina and Robin confirmed out of the blue and toppling the titan that was Gematsu I have renewed confidence.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I have come a long way in my speculation. Before I was a just a fanboy.
I added Ghirahim to my roster because I wanted him. I kept him because I figured out why he could feasibly actually be included.

I knew from the start, on my first roster before even joining these boards, that he was an unpopular choice and I would get ridiculed for trying to justify it.

But I'm more confident than ever now. After seeing Lucina and Robin confirmed out of the blue and toppling the titan that was Gematsu I have renewed confidence.

Sounds like you're in the same exact position I'm in right now.

 

[N3ON]

I am more than certain it has to do with the trophy quiz theory's affirmation through Robin's unexpected reveal in addition to Ghirahim's new-found relevance as a Hyrule Warrior's character (which refutes the "he is not prevalent enough" argument).

These of course are the same people that gave the Gematsu leak extra credence when Little Mac was confirmed; those that will believe a leak or theory to a greater extent when one of the most obvious and likely elements of it gets confirmed... an Awakening character was always a highly common prediction...

And one could say it refutes that argument, however if you were to say that you'd have to concede that every other unique character in HW bar Lana has become just as if not more prevalent, given that prevalence is measured by commonness, and that this is at least the second appearance for all of them. However, this "prevalence" was really only gained after I imagine the roster was decided some time ago, so one could debate whether HW really matters at all as far as the roster goes, and chances are it doesn't.

As more characters are revealed to not be as prominent as we once expected, someone such as Ghirahim with an observable move-set potential becomes an overt prospect in the minds of most logical speculators.

Being an overt prospect was always something Ghirahim could claim, I'd surmise you just weren't here when his original, stronger popularity was rampant. That doesn't necessarily mean he's particularly likely. At this point his support stems from, as you said, the dwindling of the candidate pool as well as the belief in a theory so far backed up by largely inevitable circumstantial evidence. I'm not really sure how much logic plays a part in things when people rest their conclusions on baseless inference.

Tingle's confirmation as an assist trophy also helped a little bit.

This is true~

 

[Niala]

With the topic of villains, with all the female love we need some villain love too dammit! The dream of a villains trailer is real <3.

There's no one that can really be represented from Mario that's a big villain aside from Jr. and as much as people want Fawful, I have no hope for him unfortunately.

Legend of Zelda has a huge collection of villains, but only some are worth while. No one wants Zant for some reason, Skull Kid is gone, Yuga seems too new but we have Greninja so that shouldn't be a problem.

Kirby is not going to add another villain most likely if they decide to give them another rep.

Pokemon doesn't even really have villains, but Mewtwo can somewhat be considered as one.

Donkey Kong's hopes for villains lie in K. Rool while Yoshi is not going to get any villain reps if they get another one.

Samus. Ridley. Nuff said. I feel like none of the other villain-esque characters can fit the role like Ridley can. (no pun intended)

Star Fox is only going to add Krystal if they add anyone

In F-Zero we could get Black Shadow and smack Falcondorf's moveset to him. Would work out perfectly if they were to revise Ganondorf a lot.

Earthbound/Mother is all for Porky but I could not see him making it in.

Kid Icarus is most likely staying at two.

And from that it seems like theres not that many notable villains in the other series. :\ dang

I strongly feel that Kid Icarus will actually be receiving a third rep. Not only did Kirby, Sakurai's other baby, receive two newcomers previously, but Fire Emblem has received one and a clone this time around, proving he's not against adding more than one newcomer per series. I feel like, logically, the evidence adds up to a likely third rep for Kid Icarus, especially if you consider the Dark Pit tease that ended Palutena's trailer.

 

[XLIFE]

I'll admit I know little to nothing about Rhythm Heaven other than it's a rhythm based game, which is actually quite odd to me given my history with rhythm games and general aptitude with music... But I digress. However meager my knowledge might be, I was interested by the Chorus Men initially, and would more readily stand behind them than another character about whom I know even less.

That being said, I would basically be perfectly fine with any addition from the series, I'm just directly interested by the Chorus Men moreso than others.

Trust me I don't know about RH that much either to be honest but the thought of a Wrestler being included and the potential unique moveset he could have interested me. Karate Joe wouldn't bother me if he was chosen because we also don't have a character like him. CM tho? All they do is let out a shriek in one mini game, I know they make movesets out of anything, but even if they did make one for them that was unique it'd feel weird to me to see them go with them instead of one of the other two.

Pokemon doesn't even really have villains, but Mewtwo can somewhat be considered as one.

Doesn't have villains?

Spoiler

 

[Nintendotard]

I strongly feel that Kid Icarus will actually be receiving a third rep. Not only did Kirby, Sakurai's other baby, receive two newcomers previously, but Fire Emblem has received one and a clone this time around, proving he's not against adding more than one newcomer per series. I feel like, logically, the evidence adds up to a likely third rep for Kid Icarus, especially if you consider the Dark Pit tease that ended Palutena's trailer.

I feel like, logically, the evidence adds up to a likely third rep for Kid Icarus, especially if you consider the Dark Pit tease that ended Palutena's trailer.

especially if you consider the Dark Pit tease that ended Palutena's trailer.

Dark Pit tease that ended Palutena's trailer.

Dark Pit

Sorry, I know theres arguments saying that he'd be a lot different from regular Pit, but the fact that he's a literal clone of Pit, really makes me not want him in the game as a character.

On your other point, yeah Fire Emblem getting four reps makes me hope that DK will receive four too (coughDixieandK.Roolcough).

 

[Niala]

Sorry, I know theres arguments saying that he'd be a lot different from regular Pit, but the fact that he's a literal clone of Pit, really makes me not want him in the game as a character.

On your other point, yeah Fire Emblem getting four reps makes me hope that DK will receive four two (coughDixieandK.Roolcough).

Hahaha, excellent post!

Nonetheless, my point was more that you could indeed draw some amount of evidence for a third Kid Icarus rep, rather than necessarily who that rep would be. Although, for argument's sake, I do believe Dark Pit would be the most likely, and would indeed be a clone as well. Although he could just be a skin, who knows, really.

It's entirely possible that logic can be applied elsewhere, too, you have a good point. There's nothing stopping DK from getting the two reps you mentioned other than Sakurai himself. I do believe, however, that Kid Icarus is more likely, simply for my aforementioned reasons.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lies and deceit! My dear friend; Pacack, you are being quite facetious. Most sane speculators have anticipated Ganondorf's removal ever since his tier placement changed to bottom tier... why include a character that no one wants to play?! He does not even use his sword, what a loser! Sakurai does not wish to give Ganondorf a new move-set, obviously. So it is more practical to replace him with the fabulous Lord Ghirahim. Everyone knows this to be true! Why are you pretending that his replacement would never happen "in a million years" when it is all but confirmed that he will indeed be replaced? Are you, perhaps, attempting to delay the inevitable? I am afraid that you cannot change Sakurai's mind, he decided that he was biased because he mains Ganondorf, so naturally he has to remove him from the game... for balance purposes. Please understand...

So another Mewtwo situation?

 

[The Light Music Club]

Fortunately for everyone involved, Star Fox does not have a second clone or semi-clone. Of course this is a common misconception as Wolf and Fox are both animals and from space... understandable, I suppose.

When they share two moves with the exact same name (blaster and reflector) two moves that share very similar names (wolf fire and wolf flash vs. Fox Fire and Fox Illusion) and all four are variations of the other character's, I consider then semi-clones. Since their specials aren't very "special."

 

[Xzsmmc]

I strongly feel that Kid Icarus will actually be receiving a third rep. Not only did Kirby, Sakurai's other baby, receive two newcomers previously, but Fire Emblem has received one and a clone this time around, proving he's not against adding more than one newcomer per series. I feel like, logically, the evidence adds up to a likely third rep for Kid Icarus, especially if you consider the Dark Pit tease that ended Palutena's trailer.

Please no.

 

[Niala]

When they share two moves with the exact same name (blaster and reflector) two moves that share very similar names (wolf fire and wolf flash vs. Fox Fire and Fox Illusion) and all four are variations of the other character's, I consider then semi-clones. Since their specials aren't very "special."

This is a train of thought I never quite understood. Are four moves out of a possible 20-odd total for each character really the definition of cloning, simply because they are labelled differently and retain slightly different properties(such as use in the air)? I don't really think so-- quite to the opposite, I would judge cloning by each move's similarity, not granting specific concern to any which one, as well as mechanical similarities (such as their use and purpose in a fight) and even going so far as to think about how similarly they control. By my definition, Wolf is less of a clone of Fox than Jigglypuff is of Kirby.

Please no.

I... uh... thank you for your input?

 

[Morbi]

These of course are the same people that gave the Gematsu leak extra credence when Little Mac was confirmed; those that will believe a leak or theory to a greater extent when one of the most obvious and likely elements of it gets confirmed... an Awakening character was always a highly common prediction...

And one could say it refutes that argument, however if you were to say that you'd have to concede that every other unique character in HW bar Lana has become just as if not more prevalent, given that prevalence is measured by commonness, and that this is at least the second appearance for all of them. However, this "prevalence" was really only gained after I imagine the roster was decided some time ago, so one could debate whether HW really matters at all as far as the roster goes, and chances are it doesn't.


Being an overt prospect was always something Ghirahim could claim, I'd surmise you just weren't here when his original, stronger popularity was rampant. That doesn't necessarily mean he's particularly likely. At this point his support stems from, as you said, the dwindling of the candidate pool as well as the belief in a theory so far backed up by largely inevitable circumstantial evidence. I'm not really sure how much logic plays a part in things when people rest their conclusions on baseless inference.


This is true~

Hasty generalization fallacy.

Despite the notion that the difference is negligible, there is quite clearly a difference. It ensures that detractors cannot assert that his appearance in one game is a reason for non-inclusion. That is the only relevant aspect of speculation that I intended to address when I mentioned "prevalence." I do not believe that Hyrule Warriors contributes a lot regarding his inclusion in Smash; however, I do believe that it might be a reason that more are advocating for him, hence the reason I typed the post in the first place.

Correct, I was not around when his original, stronger popularity was rampant. I never insinuated that this makes him particularly likely either, not sure where you are getting that sentiment unless that was not directed at me. There are many differing forms of logic, I am not quite sure which form you are specifically alluding to, but a "logical speculator" in the context I provided is one who is aware of the merit of the character, one who understands why they may or may not be included, one who supports the character based on a certain rationale... the standard definition of the word. Ghirahim has more potential reasons for inclusion than any other Legend of Zelda candidate sans Impa. Therefore, I have deduced that a "logical speculator" would be more open to the prospect of Ghirahim once the trophy quiz theory was affirmed through Robin's confirmation.

This brings us to the next point, "baseless inference." I am not sure what your definition of "baseless" entails. But it is certainly not the traditional usage of the word...

 

[Xzsmmc]

I... uh... thank you for your input?

Let me be a little more eloquent. Kid Icarus getting three characters before DK or Metroid get three or F-Zero gets two would be absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Morbi]

Let me be a little more eloquent. Kid Icarus getting three characters before DK or Metroid get three or F-Zero gets two would be absolutely ridiculous.

Let me be a little more eloquent. Fire Emblem getting four characters before DK or Metroid get three or F-Zero gets two would be absolutely ridiculous. Alas, that seems to be the case.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Let me be a little more eloquent. Fire Emblem getting four characters before DK or Metroid get three or F-Zero gets two would be absolutely ridiculous. Alas, that seems to be the case.

Never said I was happy about that either. Let's hope we can still see some other franchise clones in the same vein as Lucina.

 

[JaidynReiman]

These of course are the same people that gave the Gematsu leak extra credence when Little Mac was confirmed; those that will believe a leak or theory to a greater extent when one of the most obvious and likely elements of it gets confirmed... an Awakening character was always a highly common prediction...

And one could say it refutes that argument, however if you were to say that you'd have to concede that every other unique character in HW bar Lana has become just as if not more prevalent, given that prevalence is measured by commonness, and that this is at least the second appearance for all of them. However, this "prevalence" was really only gained after I imagine the roster was decided some time ago, so one could debate whether HW really matters at all as far as the roster goes, and chances are it doesn't.


Being an overt prospect was always something Ghirahim could claim, I'd surmise you just weren't here when his original, stronger popularity was rampant. That doesn't necessarily mean he's particularly likely. At this point his support stems from, as you said, the dwindling of the candidate pool as well as the belief in a theory so far backed up by largely inevitable circumstantial evidence. I'm not really sure how much logic plays a part in things when people rest their conclusions on baseless inference.


This is true~

I still say if Zelda gets a new rep, it should be Impa. (Although if I were to support any one character regardless of the impossibility of said character ever being playable in Smash, it'd be Saria, but let's not go there. )

I definitely think the Trophy Theory is possible, but only for a decloned Ganondorf. Zelda might keep two clones, but the second clone will be Impa instead. Ganondorf is the only clone in Smash history who has absolutely no reason to be a clone whatsoever.

Let me be a little more eloquent. Fire Emblem getting four characters before DK or Metroid get three or F-Zero gets two would be absolutely ridiculous. Alas, that seems to be the case.

Its not like Fire Emblem isn't an extremely long-running popular franchise, and frankly, we don't know the final roster yet so for all we know, those franchises do have more. That said, FE getting a "bonus" character hardly counts. We've got three fully unique characters and one barely changed clone.

 

[Scamper52596]

Hasty generalization fallacy.

Despite the notion that the difference is negligible, there is quite clearly a difference. It ensures that detractors cannot assert that his appearance in one game is a reason for non-inclusion. That is the only relevant aspect of speculation that I intended to address when I mentioned "prevalence." I do not believe that Hyrule Warriors contributes a lot regarding his inclusion in Smash; however, I do believe that it might be a reason that more are advocating for him, hence the reason I typed the post in the first place.

Correct, I was not around when his original, stronger popularity was rampant. I never insinuated that this makes him particularly likely either, not sure where you are getting that sentiment unless that was not directed at me. There are many differing forms of logic, I am not quite sure which form you are specifically alluding to, but a "logical speculator" in the context I provided is one who is aware of the merit of the character, one who understands why they may or may not be included, one who supports the character based on a certain rationale... the standard definition of the word. Ghirahim has more potential reasons for inclusion than any other Legend of Zelda candidate sans Impa. Therefore, I have deduced that a "logical speculator" would be more open to the prospect of Ghirahim once the trophy quiz theory was affirmed through Robin's confirmation.

This brings us to the next point, "baseless inference." I am not sure what your definition of "baseless" entails. But it is certainly not the traditional usage of the word...

Can I just say real quick, hopefully without seeming too weird, that I just love the way you form words in your longer posts. I always seem inclined to read your descriptions more thoroughly and get the sense that you know what you're talking about, if only for the wording in your debates. Just felt like I should tell you. Sorry if I came off as a peculiar individual.

 

[shinhed-echi]

So many topics going on at once :D

Wolf: Clone in Specials only, the rest of the attacks are completely original.

Next Zelda rep: Not out of the question. Don't know who's likeliest, but in my humble opinion, the next deserving character to be should be IMPA, for her appearances in OoA, OoS, OoT, SS, and now HW, even if her designs are different in all of these games.

Trophy theory: As silly as the cloud theory in Brawl. People are looking too deep into it, if you ask me. XD

Dark Pit: I think his chance just flew by him. He could've been revealed alongside Palutena a'la Robin/Lucina, but he wasn't.



Anyone else think we're getting a Star Fox character reveal soon? Seeing as how their stage was revealed a little while ago.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I definitely agree that Impa is the next deserving character. I just want Vaati more.

 

[~Krystal~]

I'm optimistic about a major Star Fox themed trailer in August. For July, I'm not expecting much.

Edit: Outside of Happy Mask Salesman, I believe Dampe's ghost is the most likely Zelda candidate. Impa sounds interesting, but she's far too inconsistent in appearance and role. Not to mention, she really let herself go in Ages and I can't respect a heroine who isn't the least bit concerned about her waistline.

 

[epicgordan]

I'm now predicting that tomorrow's reveal trailer will be Chorus Kids, Wario, and Ice Climbers.

 

[MYU2]

Anything special like a character reveal isn't gonna happen tomorrow. Hopefully I get proven wrong.

 

[mark welford]

it is possible you know how masahiro sakurai love sneaking up, surprising and trolling people he stops, drops and trolls people

 

[YoshiandToad]

Anything special like a character reveal isn't gonna happen tomorrow. Hopefully I get proven wrong.

I doubt you will be proven wrong since tomorrow is Saturday and Smash updates don't really happen on the weekends.

Edit: Unless I've missed something INCREDIBLY important that is.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

I'm now predicting that tomorrow's reveal trailer will be Chorus Kids, Wario, and Ice Climbers.

Don't get too hopeful..i don't think we will see a Newcomer at Comic Con but maybe a veteran

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I really don't get why the trophy theory is being used to predict the roster. Yea, we got Robin and whatever, but a Fire Emblem character was expected this entire time, so I really don't see why that makes it believable.

If we get Ridley or a Zelda newcomer, then maybe I'll believe it.

 

[PlTe]

There's a 3DS tournament today, is there not? I can definitely expect for something to be revealed. Maybe a newcomer and a veteran trailer.

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't get why the trophy theory is being used to predict the roster. Yea, we got Robin and whatever, but a Fire Emblem character was expected this entire time, so I really don't see why that makes it believable.

If we get Ridley or a Zelda newcomer, then maybe I'll believe it.

I always thought it was an elaborate straw grasp assembled by the pure madness that is the Ridley thread.