Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Kaladin]

When looking at Little Mac results, it would really help to know the stages he played on.

Sadly, it was off stream.

Ness is Little Mac in one matchup and it is a major thorn in his side, largely contributing to the case people make for him not being top 10. Little Mac is Little Mac in every matchup and people think he's secretly good---what??


We can point to x or y local victory but Little Mac only has ONE good player and even that good player has never done very well at a major. Also, let's not forget that Little Mac will only get worse with time as gimps and combos get optimized.

Never said Mac was top 10. I'd make the case for him being top half of characters, however, because of his amazing neutral.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Never said Mac was top 10. I'd make the case for him being top half of characters, however, because of his amazing neutral.

And i'm not saying you're saying Mac is top 10, all I'm saying is that having a disadvantage state that awful is a terrible thing for a character to have, especially when combos are only going to be improving with time. There is no way Mac is in the upper echelon when he has so many bad traits and nowhere to go but down.

 

[L9999]

Seeing this fashion of custom move overview I'll give an opinion on Ness' custom moves.

PK Flash: It's only for disrespect and mindgames with people who don't know what it does. It can egeguard crappy recoveries but with the overpowere ledges it might not hit anyways. And while it can kill really good and break shields, it will never hit a soul.

Rising PK Flash: Uair negates its entire existence. And it doesn't kill and has extremely limited range. You can dodge it blindfolded. PK Flash is better in every sense and PK Flash is bad.

PK Freeze: The best application this move has is for harassing offstage because mashing offstage is not fun, but then again PK Freeze is just as slow as PK Flash and everything Flash does Thunder does it and better. Also, while on the ice block, if you use PK Fire Burst at 100% it will explode and kill an opponent, but again, the move will never hit onstage, and the opponent will mash out of it before Ness can use PK Fire Burst.

PK Fire: It's bad and good at the same time. We all know what it does by this point.

PK Bonfire: This move is garbage. It has no uses. Period.

PK Fire Burst: If it didn't have that atrocious start up, landing lag and animation, it would trade it for PK Fire. Zoning is good on a character with bad range, but sadly, it has bad startup , bad landing lag, and horrible animation for being used in the air near the ground. It can also be used for killing with Fair chains, but the timing is strict. Usable against characters that slip out of PK Fire easily and Ness doesn't want to be near them anyways, Greninja and Weegee come to mind.

PK Thunder: It juggles, it chases, it harrases offstage, it kills, it can break shields. It's a good move but a really bad recovery.

Lasting PK Thunder: This move makes some matchups less miserable, but it only really improves recovery, and it's still vulnerable to Gravitational Gimp. It is slow so it can't juggle and LPKT2 is the easiest thing to SDI out of. And it can't kill even if you connect all the hits.

Rocking PK Thunder: This move is garbage and only a delusional masochist would use it. Ness' recovery is garbage already, and this move makes it even worse. Even if the bolt kills at 100%, it will never reach anyone because it's sluggish and lasts nothing of time.

PSI Magnet: It heals. That's it. Under pressure it can't be used, it's easy to mindgame it.

PSI Vaccum: It's a little situational, but against characters with no projectiles it's a nice option to have. It can be thrown out and be expected to do something.

Foward PSI Magnet: The fact that it heals less than the regular is enough to throw it to the garbage. It can shine, but the hitbox is extremely small and the shine is not strong anyways. It also doesn't improve recovery like Lucas' can.

Conclusion: Only Vacuum, Lasting Thunder and Fire Burst are usable, and only in specific matchups. With slight fixes Ness' custom moves would improve a LOT that is wrong with Ness and be solo usable, but because they are not, Ness gains almost nothing in customs. As a matter of fact it gets worse. Airbender DK, Falco laser Rosalina, and every windbox in existence screw Ness up.

 

[Jaguar360]

Neutral 3: Egg Launch

Against characters with poor/short recoveries like Falcon, Mario, and Ganon, I can see this being used over normal Egg Lay. Otherwise I don't see why to use it.

Egg Launch also has less endlag than regular Egg Lay since it wasn't affected by the nerf in that patch from way back (1.02?). It can occasionally get kills off of the side blast zone too, so that's good. I think it's equally as good as Egg Lay and I have a personal preference for it.

I agree with everything else. 1311 and 3311 do seem like Yoshi's best custom movesets. I haven't seen many others agree that Light Egg Roll is the best. The bouncing really helps for misinputs and the burst movement can occasionally be helpful. It's still mediocre like the other two side Bs, but it's the best imo.

 

[Peppermint1201]

So Ike mains always tell me Ike-Pikachu is either 50-50 or in Ike's favor, and that ESAM was supposedly afraid of playing Ryo. After seeing ESAM's decisive victory over Ryo (ESAM only took 50% Game 3) I'm not so sure....

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Drawing conclusions based on a single set is foolish.

 

[wedl!!]

Little Mac making upsets just proves he works as a counterpick character. Same as Doc. Both characters are not very relevant in the grand scheme of things. They are the epitome of the counterpick character; they aren't reliable at all due to some of their flaws (disadvantage, Mac's lack of an airgame, Doc's poor mobility) so solo maining them is an awful idea. However, they work well in a setplay sense. They're extremely powerful characters that thrive off of inexperience/discomfort.

MLG LF is a perfect example of this. ESAM had just come off of playing Zero, who he claims is "mentally straining to fight". He in general seems to struggle in the Mario MU. Nairo, knowing he would most likely face ESAM at some point, didn't want to play the matchup with ZSS, considering that he hasn't exactly done well in it before (see: Smash Con). Doc would seem like a good fit; Mario already does well in the MU, and he fits Nairo's punish-heavy, risk/reward playstyle. It almost worked in the set before. Even if it was a 3-1, Nairo did quite a lot of damage. The next set they met (immediately after ESAM/Zero), Nairo gets a 3-0 with Doctor Mario against ESAM's Pikachu and Samus.

What else has a Doctor Mario done, exactly? Especially solo. What else, besides some of these upsets, has Sol or any other Little Mac really done? It's not like Sol goes to majors.

Also FWIW Mac is never going to get anywhere close to the upper half of the cast lol. He is far too wild to really work on a consistent basis and has a pretty awful MU spread, despite having a lot of strong traits. Doc at least has some decent MUs with the upper echelon of characters.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It seems to be a trend with ESAM, as if he's in a bizarro world kinda.
If he's afraid of a match up he'll still continue or eventually destroy the best player for X MU (in this case ike pika in smash 4) while he'll argue that something is in Pika's favor or even and get destroyed in the MU almost every single time (MK pika in brawl or sheik vs Pika in Smash 4)

 

[Man Li Gi]

Why do peeps say that Doc is a GOOD CP character? Is it in reference to MLG? If it is, I'd like to bring to Peep's attention that Nairo LOST in Winners Semis to Esam 3-1 using Doc. Later he beat ESAM 3-0 with Doc and now Doc is a great CP? My lord, ESAM had to play winner's and loser's finals back to back and you don't think that played more of a role than the character itself.

 

[wedl!!]

He's not a very strong counterpick character. He just kinda works.

I'd rather have a Doc as a counterpick pocket than Mac at the very least.

Something else relevant: is it still thought that Diddy beats Sammy? Every time I see this matchup it looks pretty even.

 

[SubconsciousRose]

Quick thought regarding DK: DK has historically preformed better without customs than with, even in environments where there he is just fighting the same 1111 Sheiks, Diddys, and whoever.

Someone already pointed out that Kong Cyclone is actually worse than Spinning Kong at the highest levels of play, which I wouldn't have fully bought before the cargo throw patch (and the low-% huge damage up-b combos that this brought to many matchups) but is very likely true now.

Custom DK is almost has to be a somewhat better character in cast-relative terms (benefits more from customs, "moves up"), but the delta is smaller than performance variability.


The real, true biggest winners of customs are still, in order:
True Winners:
Significantly Better:
Addresses Cripping Weakness Tier:
Litnus Test Tier:



Pikachu is the "gatekeeper" in the context of customs affecting viability/rank. Not DK, not Rosalina, not Villager--100% Pikachu. "Would I rather fight Pikachu with customs on or off?" Everyone on this list would say "absolutely."

should be obvious.
is almost as good though. Jumbo Hoops fixes a lot of her "problems", and lag-less Weighted Headers give her an offensive game. Seriously, just go rapid-fire a bunch of lag-less Weighted Headers, almost no one knows how incredible this is. I would trade literally any side-b in the game for this move.
ZZS is the best custom in the game. You probably can't understand this until you've played against someone who can use it, but it's comparable to the difference for Rosalina with and without Luma. It's literally fighting two characters.
Dark Fists is the best Counter in the game and redefines Ganon. Wizard's Dropkick salvages several of Ganon's worst matchups, such as Rosalina.
Just gets a lot of comprehensively good MU-specific options and recovery buffs.
is somewhat invalidated in many MUs/stages by timeout rules and minimal recovery choices. Grounding Blow is not a great move and not even worth taking in all situations, but addresses these two key fatal flaws just enough for him to bypass them and become viable in the general environment. As Mac, I would 100% prefer to fight customs-on in every matchup except the above 5 characters.
gets d-throw to Shocking Cape. Nothing else actually matters (Gust Cape sucks, up-b 3 is a novelty), though I guess Fast Fireballs are worth considering in many matchups.
Twisting Fox is just a stupid OoS/ledge-coverage option. Very high risk offset by extremely high reward.
Crescent Slash is just a really, really good kill option.
gets his up-b fixed with Upper Cutter. his other customs are legit options, but don't really fix him as tenth as much as having a great up-b does.
has overrated customs but still pretty good. Dragon Rush is very useful, but the option to take f1 armor'd Rock Hurl is also important.
Dash Slash is one of the most legitimately beneficial customs in the game, sort of like Grounding Blow on Mac. Giving Bowser a source of burst mobility is a game-changer in most of his matchups.
I see listed as having terrible customs, and it blows my mind. Grounding Blow is a f1 armor'd move that sets up the up-b combo at kill %s; like with Rock Hurl, I don't think people appreciate how much MUs change when you introduce a f1 super armor option onto the table--every single pseudo-combo in the game becomes escapable. Then you've got those 15% damage Giant Mechakoopas; normal Mechakoopas are great, but a Link Bomb that does 15%? 15%!
gets his dumb super counter + Advancing Air Slash + cool Monado alternatives, but is still Shulk. *shrug*

gets Heavy Skull Bash, which is a really terrific move for recovering, punishing air dodges, and losing EVO. He also gets a really spooky projectile option in Thunder Wave.

I can buy that don't want to fight Pikachu in particular with customs (based on my limited understanding of their MUs with Pika), but would still "move up" overall. Rose-Scented Waft is a stupid move against anyone with a less-than-incredible recovery, and MM/Samus/DK have by far the biggest variety of viable options for various matchups.

and would almost certainly be next. Hammer Spin Dash is infuriating, and ROB's fast up-b is a big deal for his kill possibilities.

Then you'd have a selection of characters with noteworthy MU-specific options like (Speed Thunder), (Reflector Void), (mostly Meteor Trampoline).

Finally, you get to and , who are the true gatekeepers. Rosalina basically despises customs against anyone mentioned above (especially the top 3), and loves them against anyone else. Villager gets EBT, which despite the nerfs is still a solid measuring stick for for valuable a custom is to someone.

Close-but-no-cigar awards go to , , and .


And here I meant to only say something about DK. Oops.

I want to add onto this with my own personal experience since I dabbled in a lot of custom move experimentation before EVO with Rosalina and Fox.

For Rosalina, Shooting Star Bit is a bit overrated in my mind but it still is better than vanilla in some matchups for sure given how many characters with poor mobility struggle with it.

Floaty Star Bit is a custom that's so close to being a fantastic move if it just actually trapped the opponent in it because then it could confirm other moves but the fact it has so little hitstun for now leaves it as a kind of lacking option in my mind.

Luma Warp is absolutely amazing though for a multitude of reasons including it kill confirms into moves like sweetspot utilt/usmash/fsmash/nair/dair depending on where and how you land it. Its application as a long range punish is just so fantastic and there's another aspect that makes this move amazing. Luma's hitbox on reappearing jab locks so missed techs can lead to extreme punishes because a missed tech at edge vs Rosa can lead to a warp jablock into fsmash which I have had kill as early as around 60% before. Rosalina's down tilt also sends at a very low angle to set this up super well.

Power Luma Shot still doesn't do anything notable as far as I'm aware so don't have much to say on that.

I've heard that the 1 frame reduction in a recent patch was added to Guardian Luma which means you can SH Lunar Land with it or something. Haven't experimented with this so can't say much on that but Guardian Luma is still obviously a better option than Pull in any MU where Pull is useless (i.e. Ganon/Marth/etc)

Catch and Release is still an unspoken of move as far as I'm concerned in terms of how terrible it is.

As for Fox, the Wolf laser isn't worth noting as far as I remember but Impact Blaster (Falco's blaster) has one niche over the default. In matchups where the normal laser isn't very safe, I found Impact Blaster to be useful for its jab locking capabilities as a missed tech on fthrow/ftilt can lead to massive damaging combos or kills such as setting up for Twisting Fox which is my next point.

Twisting Fox is basically a straight upgrade over vanilla since the higher damage output of the default is negligible as that's not its purpose but more importantly because of Twisting Fox's insane kill power. Failure to tech a fastfall fair from Fox could set up into it and this move is a seriously potent punish given how extremely early it's capable of killing at. I would take this move over Fire Fox any day.

Flying Fox isn't very good because the lack of any hitbox makes it even easier to intercept despite its lower startup so not very keen on that option.

I don't feel very strongly about any reflector option in particular but one little fun tidbit about big reflector is its so huge that a Fox standing on the lower platform of Battlefield can reflect Robin shooting a grounded Thoron below which is pretty amusing,

Might not be a very detailed post but a bit busy atm but I hope I got my points across.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Drawing conclusions based on a single set is foolish.

That is true, but what does that have to do with the thread at the moment? I'm not drawing any conclusions, I'm trying to start some discussion about Ike-Pika and possibly the two characters in general.

 

[wedl!!]

Pika main just told me that Ryu is overrated.

Five seconds later that happens.

I feel good now.

 

[Djent]

"Jigglypuff's shield break isn't a big deal" they say.
Well I guess so, if other characters are dying to shield breaks as well.

 

[Ikes]

i guess toon link is finally getting some notable rep?

 

[Ffamran]

As for Fox, the Wolf laser isn't worth noting as far as I remember but Impact Blaster (Falco's blaster) has one niche over the default. In matchups where the normal laser isn't very safe, I found Impact Blaster to be useful for its jab locking capabilities as a missed fech on fthrow/ftilt can lead to massive damaging combos or even sets up into Twisting Fox which is my next point.

Fox doesn't have a Wolf or Falco Blaster; Fox has what's pretty much Star Fox's charge mechanic and his original, one shot per button 64 Blaster that Falco stole in Melee. Nobody has a Wolf Blaster in this game as nobody's projectile has a melee and ranged hitbox that can occur at the same time - Mega Man's arm cannon has a Melee hitbox, but I don't know if he can hit with both his arm cannon and his shots at the same time like Wolf. For me, default vs. Impact/64 Blaster is kind of personal preference. It's a difficult between do you want more range and higher DPS or do you want the ability to cause hit stun at the cost of range?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Why do peeps say that Doc is a GOOD CP character? Is it in reference to MLG? If it is, I'd like to bring to Peep's attention that Nairo LOST in Winners Semis to Esam 3-1 using Doc. Later he beat ESAM 3-0 with Doc and now Doc is a great CP? My lord, ESAM had to play winner's and loser's finals back to back and you don't think that played more of a role than the character itself.

Because he has like 2-3 MUs over Mario and is also better than playing the Mario ditto if you're a Mario main, perhaps? I mean it sounds like speculation but it hasn't turned out to be incorrect yet, really. He's not this amazing character but he's always been a solid pocket character IMO.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Customs talk makes me wish Dedede had Waddle Dee toss back as a custom option. I think giving him a faster, weaker option than Gordo Toss, with a consistent arcing trajectory rather than bouncing would have been nice. Let them be bounced back by everything, but also have them lose their hitbox on being hit. It could, for example, give Dedede a viable option to stuff projectiles and pester people from a distance, while you lose out on some of the general utility of Gordos. Oh well...

On the customs Dedede actually has:

Inhale versus Taste Test- I think this is purely player preference. IIRC Taste Test is faster than Inhale and spits people out further, in exchange for being unable to reposition yourself or do swallowcides. Personally I like Taste Test more but both are decent options.

Not sure when you would want to use Dedede Storm, but I heard it's a good anti-luma option from other Dedede players. Otherwise it just seems to slow to be worth it, had they made this move faster on start up and cooldown it could be a good option for pressuring shields.

Never use Top-Spin Gordo on side b. It's dreadfully slow and unwieldy to use.

Bouncing Gordo sorta is a good move. It's definitely worse than the standard Gordo toss, but I think you trade in Gordo Toss's overall utility for it being more reliable in a few places. It's a lot easier to stick these to walls for example, and the trajectory they fly at is good for intercepting some recoveries. They're worse for setting traps in general, but they have interesting uses in certain platform configurations. I think this is another case of player preference but I know most Dededes prefer to stick with default.

Dedede's standard recovery is easily his best. It's the most versatile of the lot and offers the most protection when returning to the stage. Rising Dedede potentially has utility as an OOS option, and you can try to kill off the top with it but the move removes the standard Up b's super armor, while being just as laggy and leaving you unable to control when you go into helpless. Then there's...Quick Dedede Jump I think? Honestly never bothered with this one, I think it moves up and down faster?

Jet Hammer is just a terrible move in general. Armored Jet Hammer has the most utility since you can kinda beef through attacks with the armor on charge, but it's still a weaker Jet Hammer that leaves you just as wide open. Dash Jet Hammer would be interesting if you weren't sucked backwards while charging and the move had less end lag. Personally I like Armored the most just because it has some potential uses, but they all stink and it's player preference.
Kinda unfortunate Dedede's customs are what they are, the character needs as much help as possible. It's another case like Jigglypuff where the character is worse off in customs-on because his good customs are merely side-grades rather than the upgrades many of the characters he already does bad against get.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

May just be me, but I think Doc has a decent MU spread against a majority of the top tier characters. He either goes even or slightly beats / loses to a majority of them with only a handful of truly dreadful MUs just because his general kit is so strong. I think that in the future, when Doc has more dedicated mains and a more developed metagame, he will be regarded as a semi-viable character.

 

[Rizen]

It seems like you might as well just use Mario rather than having a pocket Dr.Mario. I heard Doc does better vs Pikachu(?). In what MUs/ways is Doc not an inferior mario?

 

[Djent]

If you thought DJ Jack was the last high-level Ryu you'd be able to watch this weekend, you're wrong. There is a crazily stacked single-elimination tournament at Kyoto University featuring Ranai, 9B, Edge, Komorikiri, Rain, Aki, Earth, Kie, and more. Come watch on SHI-Gaming for incredibly high stakes and valuable matchup knowledge. There is also an English bracket here (translation courtesy of @juddy96) for those of you who can't afford to watch it live, and replays/videos will be available afterward.

EDIT: results link.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It seems like you might as well just use Mario rather than having a pocket Dr.Mario. I heard Doc does better vs Pikachu(?). In what MUs/ways is Doc not an inferior mario?

Fox MU, Mario MU, Luigi MU.

He has guaranteed kills off of throws on Fox and since Mario can't really do a TON of Mario things against Fox, Doc actually has an easier time in this matchup due to raw power and the ability to, well, D-throw -> Fair (it is true on Fox and kills, it actually works on basically every fastfaller) and seal stocks pretty easily. I have opinions that he might do better vs. Falcon and Ness is up in the air because PSI Magnet can't absorb pills.

I mean this was pretty heavily discussed earlier, he also has better edgeguarding than Mario (particularly low edgeguarding) but I always say this and it gets glossed over so I might as well re-clarify it. Also has much better OoS options, definitely a better USmash for general anti air purposes, better damage output on spacing, etc. Also generally better moves outside of Uair, Dair, and Nair. He works better than Mario in a handful of specific MUs which is why he's a secondary character and always will be to me.

 

[LancerStaff]

As the closest thing resembling an expert on the angel's customs, I suppose I'll talk about them.

Spoiler

Power of Flight: Obviously the best of the bunch. Has some ledge snap issues but nothing that can't be worked around. Think I've been talking enough about the move lately... Oh yeah, has some frame 14ish invincibility on the ground that's shared between the other Uspecials. ...Why, exactly?

Striking Flight: Not complete trash, I guess. Half the distance and has tightened flight angles to pick from, but is a surprisingly powerful attack. Dark Pit's does an extra 1% for some reason, which I think makes for 13%... On the ground it kills around 100% off the side from the middle at the base, (whew) although it's way too laggy to be anything but a hard punish aaand kills like 15% later then Fsmash. Hitbox comes out right after the invincibility so it's OoS capability is null. Offstage though, you can use it almost like pre-SSB4 Dolphin Slash or against people trying to gimp you. If only it had the mostly horizontal angle like the default, then people would of probably experimented with it...

Breezy Flight: Oddly popular, as far as custom Pit could possibly be, and for reasons I can't fathom. Myself I think it's a strong contender for worst single custom in the game. Half the reach and lacks the most horizontal angles for slightly faster aerial startup (not that you were using it on the ground anyway) and a windbox. A windbox that can't even successfully push DK away long enough to prevent him from landing a Fair, mind you. Yeah. It's easier to use up close to the ledge but that's it. Imagine Mario's Super Jump custom except it only travels half the distance of the default, and that's about what BF amounts to in my eyes.

Upperdash/Electroshock Arm: Solid move, mainly used for horizontal recovery. Imagine a weaker Raptor Boost with armor and that's Upperdash. Pit's launches straight up, Dark Pit's diagonally. Dark Pit's does a whole .5% more, too. (Yeah, that's a decimal.) Although you're really using Dark Pit's for armored gimps. Since the Arms kill decently and have armor they make for a good YOLO move. Note that B-reversing (or w/e I keep mixing these B things up okay?) them or the customs turns the step back into a step forward and gives Pit a massive amount of space to catch landings with. Also note that Electroshock can apparently true combo into Fsmash in very particular situations thanks to the electric effect. Cookie for whoever can find a way that doesn't involve hitting with it after the armor runs out or platforms.

Interception/Electrocut Arm: More power, but doesn't actually dash. Both launch at an angle like Electroshock. Okay, we've all probably laughed at the range on this move when we tried it. But B-reversing it gives it decent range, so just using it normally is like using it from a perfect pivot. Not as powerful as U or Fsmash still, and hamper's their recovery a little too much. Best used as described: Like a counter. Might be worth experimenting with.

Quickdash/Quickshock Arm: Nearly travels the distance of FD, but less armor and KB namely. Probably want to use this with Striking (or lolBreezy) for obvious reasons, but even together they're probably not worth using. I find it hard to give up the power of the defaults for what's basically a slightly better recovery.

Guardian Orbitars: Really, really gimmicky reflector. High startup and endlag, but it's a really strong windbox too and offers more literal protection. Probably their worst Dspecial but it's worth it for how much salt it generates.

Amplifying Orbitars: Stronger reflector, but the shields break in one hit. Actually, that's a good thing since you'll be immune to the hitbox that broke it and very quickly put them away. So quick that it's probably safe against most Dtilts. The real negative is how it lacks any sort of windbox... Mostly an upgrade of the default because it ironically works better for guarding.

Impact Orbitars: Probably the most solid of their Dspecials. Doesn't protect or reflect but has a meaty hitbox that launches low and is armored. Armor may not work in the air? Been a while... Still, Rock Smash's little bro will function in basically any situation, unlike the other two which rely on the opponent doing something dumb.

Palutena Bow: Weak and unrewarding, but also fairly safe and effectively wins against any other projectile on top of being useful in any advantage situation. I talk about it a lot so I don't think I need to say much more.

Silver Bow: Ever so slightly more power but can't be redirected to any noticable extent. Not trash or anything, since it's effectively a slightly nerfed Brawl Falco laser lacking rapid-fire, just underwhelming.

Guiding Bow: Worse endlag and travel slower but can be turned much tighter and last longer. Dark Pit's do more damage while Pit's turn even sharper. Very rarely will you win or lose because of the differences though. IMO, they're overrated because now you can't anti-camp or harass as effectively for basically just a gimmick. Worth considering on Dark Pit though, and they'd probably get the most mileage on him because now you have decent arrows and Electroshock gimps to terrorize people offstage with.

Piercing Bow: All-around worse frame data and doesn't turn at all, but larger, stronger and pierces projectiles and opponents. It's okay, but Pit's default bow works better then either's in almost any situation. Probably really cool in doubles though, against Rosalina not so much. Dark Pit's also has trivially less range but nontrivially more power.

All-in-all, they're decent and, well, underdeveloped. Might be one... Er, two of the most hampered characters by the limited slots, although technically having twenty slots to use helps a bit. Unless customs pick up again we're probably not going to put a lot of effort into diversifying their sets in AA's CMSP, though.

 

[Trifroze]

There might be more. I haven't faced enough good ZZS's to be sure about that matchup but it might also be in jiggs favor because of how ight she is.

We're not actually giving serious discussion to that MU spread that was posted, are we?

Spoiler: no

 

[TriTails]

Fox MU, Mario MU, Luigi MU.

He has guaranteed kills off of throws on Fox and since Mario can't really do a TON of Mario things against Fox, Doc actually has an easier time in this matchup due to raw power and the ability to, well, D-throw -> Fair (it is true on Fox and kills, it actually works on basically every fastfaller) and seal stocks pretty easily. I have opinions that he might do better vs. Falcon and Ness is up in the air because PSI Magnet can't absorb pills.

I mean this was pretty heavily discussed earlier, he also has better edgeguarding than Mario (particularly low edgeguarding) but I always say this and it gets glossed over so I might as well re-clarify it. Also has much better OoS options, definitely a better USmash for general anti air purposes, better damage output on spacing, etc. Also generally better moves outside of Uair, Dair, and Nair. He works better than Mario in a handful of specific MUs which is why he's a secondary character and always will be to me.

He also probably does better vs Ganon. Mario's gripes on this MU are that he gets out-traded really hard, and also has a bad range to boot, and he struggles to kill Ganon as his vertical survivability is like a truck. Doc does better in damage output and pills are harder to PS because they bounce hillariously high. Doc also edgeguards Ganon better because Ganon likes to recover low, Doc Tornaadddoooooooo.

If Doc can also do D-throw + F-air then that'd be a plus. U-smash is also a horizontal/diagonal killing move and has better coverage, so Ganon generally has less defense against that. Mario probably loses vs Ganon, but I can see Doc vs Ganon being even. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Ganon master, bless me with thy words @A2ZOMG .

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He also probably does better vs Ganon. Mario's gripes on this MU are that he gets out-traded really hard, and also has a bad range to boot, and he struggles to kill Ganon as his vertical survivability is like a truck. Doc does better in damage output and pills are harder to PS because they bounce hillariously high. Doc also edgeguards Ganon better because Ganon likes to recover low, Doc Tornaadddoooooooo.

If Doc can also do D-throw + F-air then that'd be a plus. U-smash is also a horizontal/diagonal killing move and has better coverage, so Ganon generally has less defense against that. Mario probably loses vs Ganon, but I can see Doc vs Ganon being even. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Ganon master, bless me with thy words @A2ZOMG .

Still don't really see Mario losing to Ganon. I recall @meleebrawler saying something a year ago about trades in their purest form rarely ever happening in a game where you move around so much. What Mario has over Ganon is an extremely damaging combo game, a projectile, a much better close-up game, and mobility.

I will admit, however, that Ganon's advantages in the MU (better kill power, range, edge guarding) keep this from becoming any worse than something like a slight disadvantage. Always found that claim ridiculous, and I still find it ridiculous to this day.

 

[adom4]

Still don't really see Mario losing to Ganon. I recall @meleebrawler saying something a year ago about trades in their purest form rarely ever happening in a game where you move around so much. What Mario has over Ganon is an extremely damaging combo game, a projectile, a much better close-up game, and mobility.

I will admit, however, that Ganon's advantages in the MU (better kill power, range, edge guarding) keep this from becoming any worse than something like a slight disadvantage. Always found that claim ridiculous, and I still find it ridiculous to this day.

Mario is probably around even, MAYBE a slight Mario advantage but that is as worst as it can get.
Dr. Mario i don't know about as much, A2ZOMG knows about Doc much more than i do.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Luigi's customs:
- Bouncing Fireball
An already bad move made worse by the 3+ frames of end lag.

What makes Luigi's current Fireballs bad?

Yes, I am aware of the 3 frame increase in lag, yet I've still seen it lead into a few things here and there, so I can't see it as THAT bad.

What else has a Doctor Mario done, exactly?

2manycooks? Doc players like @A2ZOMG bring him up quite often. Plus A2Z himself has stated to be a ranked player in SoCal.

 

[Y2Kay]

You have little Mac mains

And then u have Sol

Sol is borderline insane and solo mains little Mac in every tournament iirc. He's insanely good with the character. I'd be suprised if MVD lost to a lil Mac player, I'm not suprised at all he lost Sol however.

That boi is crazy, but he's also crazy good! Just sayin........

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You have little Mac mains

And then u have Sol

Sol is borderline insane and solo mains little Mac in every tournament iirc. He's insanely good with the character. I'd be suprised if MVD lost to a lil Mac player, I'm not suprised at all he lost Sol however.

That boi is crazy, but he's also crazy good! Just sayin........

Excellent point. I didn't know he was a day 1 mac main.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Little Mac is a character you have to respect. I mean he can end the stock very VERY early if you underestimate him. Of course anyone that solo mains Mac is going to have a hard life.

*The nerfs Mac got early on were unneeded imo and only brought about cause of ignorance and jumping the gun, because, you know, people didnt know what they were doing back then.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Little Mac is a character you have to respect. I mean he can end the stock very VERY early if you underestimate him. Of course anyone that solo mains Mac is going to have a hard life.
View attachment 84187

Isn't this what people have been saying about him since before the game came out?

 

[L9999]

Isn't this what people have been saying about him since before the game came out?

People say this because it's a fact. You can't just run/jump at him and expect to come out unscratched. Getting cornered by FSmash/Dtilt/Ftilt/jab at the edge it's not a pleasant experience and KO Punch insists a level of fear of being killed at 10%.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Little Mac is a character you have to respect. I mean he can end the stock very VERY early if you underestimate him. Of course anyone that solo mains Mac is going to have a hard life.

*The nerfs Mac got early on were unneeded imo and only brought about cause of ignorance and jumping the gun, because, you know, people didnt know what they were doing back then.
View attachment 84187

Ryu and Ike could do the same

 

[Knife8193]

You have to respect every character lol.

 

[Y2Kay]

You have to respect every character lol.

True, but no character is better at killing you for not respecting them than Lil Mac.

 

[bc1910]

True, but no character is better at killing you for not respecting them than Lil Mac.

Ryu definitely is.

 

[Ikes]

Wario is

respect the waft or get buttblasted in more ways than one

 

[Y2Kay]

Wario is

respect the waft or get buttblasted in more ways than one

Ryu definitely is.

Neither have an awful stigma like little Mac though.
These characters will kill you for lack of respect, but most are taken seriously, not that many people respect little Mac until they lose a set. I guess infamous is a better word than the best I guess.

 

[bc1910]

Neither have an awful stigma like little Mac though.
These characters will kill you for lack of respect, but most are taken seriously, not that many people respect little Mac until they lose a set. I guess infamous is a better word than the best I guess.

Saying that Mac is more likely to not be respected is a better way to explain this, yeah. I don't mean to nitpick, it's just that your original point was that Mac kills you for not respecting him better than any other character, which isn't true. Ryu definitely kills players who aren't careful more easily, and whether you're more likely to respect Ryu or not isn't really relevant.