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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Vermanubis

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These Ganons are also playing people who don't play the match-up right.

Kalm gets 4 side-bs in a row on people randomly, because they don't tech it. If you don't know how to tech Side-B, you clearly don't know the MU.
Agreed in some ways.

It's hard to say. I think the wrong way to approach Ganon is to think he's made nonviable by his shortcomings, rather than just extremely difficult to succeed with. I think it's the latter, strongly.

That being said, I think some success may be due in part to ignorance to the MU. But I don't think it's correct to say we'd succeed meaningfully less if our opponents were more competent in the MU. I can't speak for other Ganons, but my playstyle is predicated on the expectation that my opponent will shield, not commit and will consistently tech. Thus I've found ways to force commitments, challenge shields, create 50-50s, etc. This is something Ganon can do. His payoff in these situations is far less (having to tomahawk or Aerudo to circumvent shields), but it's not as if sufficient determination can't fill the gap. I have both people in my region who refuse to play the MU properly, and those who've taken the time to learn it and make me work for my results.

Life gets a lot harder for Ganon, but I wouldn't say it renders him nonviable.
 
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Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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Probably just my character again...

Still, we have a lot of things people should be doing but won't for silly reasons.
LancerStaff, not everyone has a projectile that home can be guided. just like how not everyone is named after a weapon from a crappy weapon class in kid icarus uprising.
It's slower than rocks and is as laggy as brawl lag. Basically a death wish UNLESS you can somehow get right in the middle of someone's shield and confuse them on where you're going to end up, or actually hit them, which isn't even good reward.
I don't know much about ROB myself, but does that move do significant sheild pressure? it is a multihit move.
 
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Wintropy

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I don't know much about ROB myself, but does that move do significant sheild pressure? it is a multihit move.
i believe it does, but the endlag means you're probably going to get punished before you can make use of that kind of pressure. if the shield doesn't break, it's criminally easy to grab r.o.b. during the final hit (the robot uppercut).

edit: if r.o.b. doesn't go right through you, which happens more often than not.
 
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Peppermint1201

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As for ROB's side-b: yeah, it's pretty useless. It does do a bit of shield damage I guess but it wont break shields, it will only poke them. Its only real use is as a mixup against an opponent who shields too much, maaaaybe reflecting Ness' PK Fire if you're lucky, and maaaaybe reflecting Lucario/Samus' fully charged neutral B. It's a horrible move that is ridiculously easy to punish and even easy to escape if you get hit by it.
 

G. Stache

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As for ROB's side-b: yeah, it's pretty useless. It does do a bit of shield damage I guess but it wont break shields, it will only poke them. Its only real use is as a mixup against an opponent who shields too much, maaaaybe reflecting Ness' PK Fire if you're lucky, and maaaaybe reflecting Lucario/Samus' fully charged neutral B. It's a horrible move that is ridiculously easy to punish and even easy to escape if you get hit by it.
Why is it that ROB's reflector is kind of crap? Does it have to be at a certain angle or are the reflecting properties only during certain frames?
 

KeithTheGeek

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Why is it that ROB's reflector is kind of crap? Does it have to be at a certain angle or are the reflecting properties only during certain frames?
I don't know the specifics off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure his side b only reflects near the beginning the attack. Plus there's a significant amount of time between you using the attack and being able to do anything besides mash B to extend the attack's duration. So, if you whiff you are a sitting duck, and even if you successfully reflect a projectile you have very little reward from doing so, barring something already dangerous like Samus's charge shot.

As an attack, IF you land the multi-hits and they don't fall out the launcher has a decent amount of power, but it only serves to get them off of you. And I don't think it'll actually kill till relatively high percents, and at that point why would you commit to something that's so unsafe?
 

TriTails

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Why is it that ROB's reflector is kind of crap? Does it have to be at a certain angle or are the reflecting properties only during certain frames?
If you have seen Mister Eric VS Boss, you can see Mister Eric missing a Side-B and ate a FJP.

It reflects, sure. But it's super laggy and gets bodied by shields. That's enough to render it a crap reflecting move. Too much risk for little reward, just like Green Missile.
 

Pazzo.

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I still love throwing Green Missile out every once in a while as a mix-up.

And to hear that sound effect.

Wheeeee.....!
 

Dre89

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Agreed in some ways.

It's hard to say. I think the wrong way to approach Ganon is to think he's made nonviable by his shortcomings, rather than just extremely difficult to succeed with. I think it's the latter, strongly.

That being said, I think some success may be due in part to ignorance to the MU. But I don't think it's correct to say we'd succeed meaningfully less if our opponents were more competent in the MU. I can't speak for other Ganons, but my playstyle is predicated on the expectation that my opponent will shield, not commit and will consistently tech. Thus I've found ways to force commitments, challenge shields, create 50-50s, etc. This is something Ganon can do. His payoff in these situations is far less (having to tomahawk or Aerudo to circumvent shields), but it's not as if sufficient determination can't fill the gap. I have both people in my region who refuse to play the MU properly, and those who've taken the time to learn it and make me work for my results.

Life gets a lot harder for Ganon, but I wouldn't say it renders him nonviable.
I think MU ignorance plays a massive part. Just watching some of your games, you played really well, but people also commit to stuff they simply don't need to.

I think he would be unviable if people did respect Ganon enough to play the MU properly. I think his options are so limited that it wouldn't be a case of having to be way better than your opponent, but rather once they get to a certain skill level and played the MU properly the MU would become unwinnable regardless of how much better you are.

As it stands though, people are still committing unnecessarily against you, which is what allows you to use your good fundamentals and reads. I feel if people just stopped giving you stuff to read (don't have to against Ganon) there'd be little you could do, despite how good you are.
 

Vermanubis

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I think MU ignorance plays a massive part. Just watching some of your games, you played really well, but people also commit to stuff they simply don't need to.

I think he would be unviable if people did respect Ganon enough to play the MU properly. I think his options are so limited that it wouldn't be a case of having to be way better than your opponent, but rather once they get to a certain skill level and played the MU properly the MU would become unwinnable regardless of how much better you are.

As it stands though, people are still committing unnecessarily against you, which is what allows you to use your good fundamentals and reads. I feel if people just stopped giving you stuff to read (don't have to against Ganon) there'd be little you could do, despite how good you are.
Like before, in a lot of ways, you're not wrong. People give me things they shouldn't. But if we're to be realistic, everyone's going to overcommit at some point, and that's part of being a good player (not to say I possess such an honor): forcing people to make mistakes, lest no one ever err.

In regard to reads, consider this: in any given scenario, the domain of options is necessarily limited. Those options are knowable, and the beauty of Ganon is that he <does> possess the tools to appropriately act upon this foreknowledge. That boon, however, is his greatest bane: he must constantly guess, since, yes, he has very little which itself puts him in an advantageous position.

Like I mentioned somewhere before, guessing doesn't constitute a good character in their own right. Ganon, though, is neither a bad character nor a good character: he's an engine. He has the tools to act upon foreknowledge, but apart from guessing, yes, he's reduced to a shell.

That being said, good players <can> succeed as him, regardless of MU knowledge. I hate to keep citing the Kimidori match, but I'd be remiss to say he gave me anything that I didn't have to hard-read or anticipate several steps ahead. In the grand finals match, that may not have been so. But point being, that Ganon can succeed, but not by virtue of merits independent of player.

Again, not saying you're wrong entirely, just making minor corrections in what I believe to Ganon's competitive nature. You're absolutely right about him having severely limited options and struggling mightily against competent players who aren't terrified of him. He struggles more than almost anyone in that regard, but by the same token, he still has the tools to meaningfully act upon foreknowledge, which is his sole saving grace. I've played people who just stood at the edge, shot needles at me, teched chokes and never dropped shield. Those matches were far short of beautiful, but I've, in spite of frustration thereabout, sincerely never felt that there was an issue adequate downloading couldn't fix, even if that fix meant putting a bandaid over a bursting water pipe.
 
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A2ZOMG

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You can't platform camp mario lol

I mean you can but it's not worth it. His aerial mobility and pokes along with the fact he can kill you reliably if he grabs you on a platform just make the risk/reward not worth it, that's why no one does it

A lot of "theory" doesn't pan out become it assumes people will keep making the right decision in situations the wrong one costs way more.
Tell me, how does Mario grab you on a platform?

I don't care how much he tomahawks or tries to empty jump bait. He will not kill me until ludicrous percents if I jump out of shield as he jumps. You know what's stupid risk/reward? Staying on the ground and challenging a Mario fishing for U-smash. Which DOESN'T REACH PLATFORMS.

I've done this in tournament before. Got a stock lead, just sat on the platforms and slowly chipped my way to a bigger lead pretty safely by just refusing to let him grab me or land smashes easily. Not hard to do at all, Mario's aerials minus basically super high rage D-air don't kill.
 
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Ghostbone

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I mean mario will happily rack you up to 170% then kill you with up-air if you're just putting yourself in a disadvantaged position constantly in an effort to avoid dying.
 

A2ZOMG

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I mean mario will happily rack you up to 170% then kill you with up-air if you're just putting yourself in a disadvantaged position constantly in an effort to avoid dying.
Yeah but in that time he's getting you to 170%, you can trade with him. Especially if he's trying to punish jump out of shield, he HAS to come above the platform at some point.

And in the meantime you are not risking dying to U-smash, more importantly.
 
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Mario766

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Ike doesn't destroy Ganon, that matchup is more like 55/45 Ike's favor. Especially if the Ganon knows the spacing to edgeguard Ike out of his Up-B, it's really not a lopsided matchup for Ganon at all. Ganon can get in Ike's zone if he makes a mistake and juggle him pretty efficiently, and his range is about equal to Ike's on average on important moves.

Note that Eruption is not free on Ganon's recovery, like it is on Falcon's. Ganon fist hitbox on Up-B requires fairly strict timing to beat, and also the move travels fast enough to be hard to punish on reaction.
I'm gonna go ahead and stop you there.

Because Ganon is much easier to edgeguard than Falcon. Falcon can weave during his up-b, making us not only time the Eruption, but we also have to read if he either weaves or doesn't, Ganon doesn't have much of a choice. He goes for the ledge or Ike. Eruption lasts 6 frames, and hits massively under the ledge. It's MUCH simplier to get it on Ganon. There's also other options to beat it out competely including drop zone B-Air, drop zone F-Air when Ganon isn't right below the stage, or even just D-Air, when either of the hitboxes will kill Ganon.

Ike also doesn't have much to fear in neutral. Ganon gets nothing off side-b, so shield is a powerful option, coupled with our strong dash shield game, and our aerials being extremely safe on shield due to Ganon having some of the worst OoS options in the game. Ganon also doesn't juggle Ike nearly as efficiently as Ike can to Ganon. Ike has actual options to reset to neutral, Ganon doesn't. Ganon either has to go to the ledge, or pray he can get around Ike's meaty disjointed aerials, and if he tries too zealously to do something we always have counter which gets some actual use in this MU.

Verm has it about right in the Ganon MU thread, it's a nightmare after the landing lag + shield stun buffs to Ike.
 

Vermanubis

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I'm gonna go ahead and stop you there.

Because Ganon is much easier to edgeguard than Falcon. Falcon can weave during his up-b, making us not only time the Eruption, but we also have to read if he either weaves or doesn't, Ganon doesn't have much of a choice. He goes for the ledge or Ike. Eruption lasts 6 frames, and hits massively under the ledge. It's MUCH simplier to get it on Ganon. There's also other options to beat it out competely including drop zone B-Air, drop zone F-Air when Ganon isn't right below the stage, or even just D-Air, when either of the hitboxes will kill Ganon.

Ike also doesn't have much to fear in neutral. Ganon gets nothing off side-b, so shield is a powerful option, coupled with our strong dash shield game, and our aerials being extremely safe on shield due to Ganon having some of the worst OoS options in the game. Ganon also doesn't juggle Ike nearly as efficiently as Ike can to Ganon. Ike has actual options to reset to neutral, Ganon doesn't. Ganon either has to go to the ledge, or pray he can get around Ike's meaty disjointed aerials, and if he tries too zealously to do something we always have counter which gets some actual use in this MU.

Verm has it about right in the Ganon MU thread, it's a nightmare after the landing lag + shield stun buffs to Ike.
It's sad, but true. :p

You're especially right about neutral, I think. I play an Ike who's discovered that if you hold shield, because Ganon indeed gets so little from choke against Ike, you're safe from almost everything short of tomahawks/the hardest of reads. Short of gimps, he routinely lives until 150%+. Ike outranges us massively, we can't really challege his jab, especially on shield, and with SH NAirs > jab, getting in is an ass ache from the deepest netherregions.

On the topic of gimping though, I dunno if A2 mentioned, but Ike's aether, with good timing and positioning <is> usually an invitation to get his his booty plundered. But that doesn't justify the ratio significantly to Ganon's favor, imo.
 
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Mario766

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When people talk about beating out Aether, my only response is.

Okay.

But what if I just QD back? A lot of the time you can just use QD 95 percent of the time and only Aether when you absolutely have to. Not to mention due to having no sword, beating out Aether takes exceptionally good spacing since you have to not be hit by the sword, but still be there to hit Ike at the apex of his jump so you can spike him. If you go behind him, unless he's really low you'll just hit him back towards the stage which is either a stage spike, which is easily teched, or just some damage.

It's a lot worse for Ganon, as we have another secret option that is global which screws with not only Falcon or Ganon.

I'll just run straight into you, force you to hug me for 8 damage, then kill you because you take over 30 frames of end lag and we tech those.

If you try to avoid it, you go too low or we just footstool you for the free kill.
 

Vermanubis

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When people talk about beating out Aether, my only response is.

Okay.

But what if I just QD back? A lot of the time you can just use QD 95 percent of the time and only Aether when you absolutely have to. Not to mention due to having no sword, beating out Aether takes exceptionally good spacing since you have to not be hit by the sword, but still be there to hit Ike at the apex of his jump so you can spike him. If you go behind him, unless he's really low you'll just hit him back towards the stage which is either a stage spike, which is easily teched, or just some damage.

It's a lot worse for Ganon, as we have another secret option that is global which screws with not only Falcon or Ganon.

I'll just run straight into you, force you to hug me for 8 damage, then kill you because you take over 30 frames of end lag and we tech those.

If you try to avoid it, you go too low or we just footstool you for the free kill.
Like I said, I don't think it meaningfully adjusts the MU favorably for Ganon. Just an observation. You're right, though.
 

-RedX-

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QD isn't that much of an infallible option vs someone like Ganon because he can actually intercept it with Uair if he's in the position to cover most QD release areas. Of course, Ike can still mix it up well but just has to be aware of the Ganon reading the release.
 

Mario766

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QD isn't that much of an infallible option vs someone like Ganon because he can actually intercept it with Uair if he's in the position to cover most QD release areas. Of course, Ike can still mix it up well but just has to be aware of the Ganon reading the release.
Ike's in a much better position compared to Aether though, since Ike has multiple lag free recovery options to use so Ganon has to read the release AND our height for recovery, esp on stages like Battlefield or Dream Land where we have up to 4 recovery options with QD.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Tell me, how does Mario grab you on a platform?

I don't care how much he tomahawks or tries to empty jump bait. He will not kill me until ludicrous percents if I jump out of shield as he jumps. You know what's stupid risk/reward? Staying on the ground and challenging a Mario fishing for U-smash. Which DOESN'T REACH PLATFORMS.

I've done this in tournament before. Got a stock lead, just sat on the platforms and slowly chipped my way to a bigger lead pretty safely by just refusing to let him grab me or land smashes easily. Not hard to do at all, Mario's aerials minus basically super high rage D-air don't kill.
I mean, if what you're saying really is true, then you'd think more people playing against Mario would do that, right? It could be MU unfamiliarity, or it could just be that you're wrong.
 

Mario766

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It's because it's a bad idea.

You're still in a horrible position. If you try to camp the platform Mario is in a super good position to just chip away at you and your shield with up airs and back airs.
 

Rizen

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Not to mention due to having no sword, beating out Aether takes exceptionally good spacing since you have to not be hit by the sword, .
Can QD be stopped by air dodging in front of it? Would that give enough time for ganon (or anyone) to air doge>Uair/Bair Ike?
 

A2ZOMG

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I mean, if what you're saying really is true, then you'd think more people playing against Mario would do that, right? It could be MU unfamiliarity, or it could just be that you're wrong.
Let's see, I was basically the first person to tell the Shulk boards to edgeguard with Jump when everyone said it was crap outside of recovery (though Shulk's edgeguarding is still kinda crap anyway). I was one of the first people who was forwarding the opinion that Mario by design walled Yoshi really well with B-airs and thus did fine in the matchup back when everyone complained Yoshi was OP and super difficult. And I'm basically the reason people fully understand that Shocking Cape is a god tier custom on Mario and much better than Gust Cape. And a while ago I also basically got on the case of the Ike boards for not using ledgedrop Counter for edgeguards.

These are all things that were not originally popular opinion/tactics, but have been confirmed valid. Now that I'm done boasting about how I'm very observant, I'm going to state again that I've actually tried stock lead platform camping Mario in tournament on battlefield, and it got me the results I expected: safely securing a bigger percent lead without risking running into Mario U-smash unnecessarily.

Which is why I constantly shake my head when I see people throw away stock leads against Mario in tournament when you literally have the option of trading with his non-killing juggle options, or simply waiting until he HAS to jump past the platform to stop you from (jump out of) shield camping.
 
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Skeeter Mania

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It's because it's a bad idea.

You're still in a horrible position. If you try to camp the platform Mario is in a super good position to just chip away at you and your shield with up airs and back airs.
Keep in mind that A2Z was also mentioning jumping out of shield. Given the circumstances, you shouldn't let that happen to you against a character with weak aerials.

Mario by design walled Yoshi really well with B-airs
Key words: by design. I'd like to take a stab at that.

Our Bair acts as a sort of a fan that while unsafe on block, it is quite effective towards Mario who has no answer to it besides shield. On top of this, as far as I can recall, Mario can't really punish well spaced Fairs (Yoshi can't do the same with Bair) due to his slightly low traction. Comboing Yoshi isn't really much of an option either due to floatiness, double jump, and Nair.

Of course close up, Mario does have the advantage. Faster ground attacks (frame 2 jab, frame 6 (or 7) grab, frame 5 up tilt, etc.) and safer movement on the ground gives him an overall better footsies game against Yoshi, but in the air, I'm afraid he's outmatched.

I mean I believe the MU is even, but I see where you're coming from. Just be a little more detailed next time, okay?
 
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C0rvus

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Yeah but in that time he's getting you to 170%, you can trade with him. Especially if he's trying to punish jump out of shield, he HAS to come above the platform at some point.

And in the meantime you are not risking dying to U-smash, more importantly.
I'm sorry, but there's something I don't understand about this. Yeah, by platform camping Mario, you'll likely avoid death for a long time. But, what does that accomplish? Is this something to do when you're up a stock? Cuz you aren't putting on damage if you're platform camping reactively.
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm sorry, but there's something I don't understand about this. Yeah, by platform camping Mario, you'll likely avoid death for a long time. But, what does that accomplish? Is this something to do when you're up a stock? Cuz you aren't putting on damage if you're platform camping reactively.
You can trade with Mario's aerials in some circumstances, and he HAS to jump past the platform at some point to punish jump out of shield. When this happens, you can get below him and it's another opportunity to focus on chipping him.

He can't actually stay below you forever if he wants you to get off the platform.
 
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Illuminose

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You can trade with Mario's aerials in some circumstances, and he HAS to jump past the platform at some point to punish jump out of shield. When this happens, you can get below him and it's another opportunity to focus on chipping him.
you're severely overrating platform camping against mario. mario's air mobility is amazing and his frame data is great. he's super safe. he can easily pressure you on the platform, if you're trying to jump around he'll hit you up with up air or bair, he can whittle your shield, he can even tomahawk grab you on the platform. platform camping only works if characters don't have the mobility/options to manipulate platforms effectively. this simply isn't true for mario.
 

A2ZOMG

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you're severely overrating platform camping against mario. mario's air mobility is amazing and his frame data is great. he's super safe. he can easily pressure you on the platform, if you're trying to jump around he'll hit you up with up air or bair, he can whittle your shield, he can even tomahawk grab you on the platform. platform camping only works if characters don't have the mobility/options to manipulate platforms effectively. this simply isn't true for mario.
I don't care if he hits me with an aerial. I will GLADLY take that hit, and he will not tomahawk grab me or kill me at reasonable percents.

All the time I'm forcing Mario to only chip at me with weak attacks to come back from a stock deficit, I have opportunities to chip back at him with no risk of dying to his U-smash or in some cases get below him when a platform pressure read from Mario completely fails.

Mario has to actually take some kind of risk to force me to get off the platform. Doesn't matter that he can safely poke the platform with U-airs, the only thing that will convince me to flinch and make a remotely bad move is if he actually jumps above the platform.

I'm by far much more terrified of Mac than Mario when trying to outmaneuver him with Lylat/BF platforms, given Mac can actually kill me with Up-B on a read if he calls or waits for a jump. And Mac is definitely not a character you pick for his ability to platform pressure. With Mario, I don't have to fear dying to a bad guess. Worst case scenario, he won't kill me until extremely late if I jump out of shield as he moves.
 
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-RedX-

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Let me rephrase that, is air dodging quickdraw>attack an option vs Ike or can he act fast enough out of it that he's safe?
Yes, you can airdodge -> Attack before Ike can do anything after swinging. I actually have not seen many people do this because it's difficult to figure out where and when exactly you would position yourself to do that.
 

san.

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Of course air dodge is OK, but QD's hitbox activates 2 frames after release. It's easiest to attack from diagonally below if you can. Ike can be relatively non committal with QD as long as it's not initiated early, but sometimes he would be in that situation.
 

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Just yesterday I killed a sheik at 20 with platform dair + upb and I only had like 80% rage

There's also fludd for him to get a free juggle situation if you just refuse to approach

Good platform useage vs mario is great and needed, but opting to "camp" them and avoid returning to neutral is just asking for trouble.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Just yesterday I killed a sheik at 20 with platform dair + upb and I only had like 80% rage

There's also fludd for him to get a free juggle situation if you just refuse to approach

Good platform useage vs mario is great and needed, but opting to "camp" them and avoid returning to neutral is just asking for trouble.
20% ko? Still not as messed up ad the infamous 0% death, but still makes Mario questionable.
 

UberMadman

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Can we get some discussion on :4charizard: in this thread? I think he is one of the most underrated bottom 10 characters in the game, if that makes any sense, and I never see any discussion on him. He has some really awesome and overlooked tools, such as:
  • second best killthrow in the game off of a giant grab range
  • frame 5 super armor move that can do up to 30% at low percents or kill at high percents
  • frame 4 jab that can do 12%
  • gigantic disjointed neutral b that can be used to edgeguard onstage
  • autocancel frame 9 nair and frame 8 fair
  • 8th fastest dash in the game that he can do both of these aerials out of
  • frame 9 intangible uptilt that can combo into itself
  • frame 7 intangible Up Smash, (frame 6 on aerial opponents,) and
  • a frame 4 superarmor oos option in up-b that hits on frame 9 and can KILL
yet people often say he is the worst character in the game. What am I missing that makes him worse than Jigglypuff or Zelda or Palutena?
 
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bc1910

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Mewtwo's Uthrow and Ness' Bthrow are both better than Zard's Uthrow. Lucas' Uthrow is also better factoring DI. It's a good kill throw but not second best.

Zard isn't the worst, the three you mentioned are all worse and there are probably others. He isn't even that bad. Still isn't good, though. His neutral is literally jab, grab, and the occasional short hop aerial or flamethrower. His whole moveset is very unsafe and for the most part lacks the raw maiming power of the other heavies. Fsmash is the weakest of the "this takes stupidly long to start" Fsmashes for example, and stuff like sweetspot Bair is really powerful but Zard can't kill with any random tilt/aerial at 100%+ like Ganon or Bowser.

Though his Uthrow arguably makes him better at killing than both of them... Meh, IDK. He's less versatile in that department at any rate. And his neutral and disadvantage leave a lot to be desired.

I could comfortably name 5 characters worse than Zard (Jiggs, Pally, Zelda, D3, Samus) but I would struggle to name 10. And being bottom 10 still isn't a good place to be even if he is underrated. As I said, Zard isn't that bad of a character (he is still powerful for how generally fast he is), but the low tiers in this game just aren't that bad for the most part. It's all relative here.
 
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UberMadman

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Mewtwo's Uthrow and Ness' Bthrow are both better than Zard's Uthrow. Lucas' Uthrow is also better factoring DI. It's a good kill throw but not second best.
The reason I listed it as second best was because that unlike Mewtwo's or Lucas' Up Throws, Charizard can kill even more insanely early with it due to the fact that he rises to whatever platform is above him. Plus, when looked at as a component of Charizard itself and not in a vacuum, we're looking at it on a character that, unlike Mewtwo and Lucas, has an amazing grab and can rack up some serious rage. I can see arguments for Mewtwo's being better due to the better launch angle, but I still think Zard as a whole has a slightly better throw.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Just yesterday I killed a sheik at 20 with platform dair + upb and I only had like 80% rage

There's also fludd for him to get a free juggle situation if you just refuse to approach

Good platform useage vs mario is great and needed, but opting to "camp" them and avoid returning to neutral is just asking for trouble.
Couldn't sheik have just Naired out of Mario's dair in that situation or would the added hitstun from rage allow it to true combo into the last hit?

On an unrelated topic, what are people's opinions on Dedede? Out of all the "bad" characters I have used in the past (Samus, Ganondorf, Falco, Mewtwo) Dedede is the only one whom I find to be truly atrocious. His neutral is extremely bad (probably the worst in the game) due to a combination of poor mobility, a ridiculous amount of Startup on most of his moves, and an ineffective projectile (at least in the neutral). Pretty much every character in the game can camp him out because of these issues. His large hurtbox not only exacerbates this issue, but also makes him an easy victim to devastating combos / strings from characters like ZSS, Diddy Kong, and Roy.

The only positive traits Dedede has in my opinion are his impressive durability and decent combo game. His durability is easily the best in the game due to his above average recovery and amazing weight, making it difficult for the opponent to regain the stock lead if they lose it. His combo game is pretty good too (not spectacular), with low percent combos out of D-Throw dealing around 20% damage and sourspotted Nair being able to combo into grab or Up Air. This still doesn't make up for his numerous other issues however.
 

adom4

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Couldn't sheik have just Naired out of Mario's dair in that situation or would the added hitstun from rage allow it to true combo into the last hit?

On an unrelated topic, what are people's opinions on Dedede? Out of all the "bad" characters I have used in the past (Samus, Ganondorf, Falco, Mewtwo) Dedede is the only one whom I find to be truly atrocious. His neutral is extremely bad (probably the worst in the game) due to a combination of poor mobility, a ridiculous amount of Startup on most of his moves, and an ineffective projectile (at least in the neutral). Pretty much every character in the game can camp him out because of these issues. His large hurtbox not only exacerbates this issue, but also makes him an easy victim to devastating combos / strings from characters like ZSS, Diddy Kong, and Roy.

The only positive traits Dedede has in my opinion are his impressive durability and decent combo game. His durability is easily the best in the game due to his above average recovery and amazing weight, making it difficult for the opponent to regain the stock lead if they lose it. His combo game is pretty good too (not spectacular), with low percent combos out of D-Throw dealing around 20% damage and sourspotted Nair being able to combo into grab or Up Air. This still doesn't make up for his numerous other issues however.
Agreed, Dedede is pretty awful relative to the rest of the roster, easily the worst out of the heavyweights imo.
Also while he does have good durability it's kind of mitgated by how insanely easy it is to combo him.
 

bc1910

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D3 is a pain in the arse for any character who lacks a safe, reliable way to reflect Gordos back. He's pretty free for anyone who doesn't lack that.
 
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