Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nobie]

I wasn't talking about the inputs. I was talking about SF fundamentals, something most Smash players don't have a grasp on. Really not super hard.

Most Smash players don't even have SMASH fundamentals, let alone a Street Fighter-level understanding of footsies.

On a youtube show, Tafokints mentioned that in Melee you can potentially get top 32 at a major just from mastering tech skill and ignoring concepts like the neutral game. Of course, Smash 4 is a different sort of game, but you can see traces of this in the way people think.

To a lot of Smashers, "good footsies" is "spacing Sheik fair."
To a lot of Smashers, "good footsies" is "I'm Captain Falcon, watch out for my dash grab!"

And then you give them a character like Ryu, where mistakes in your footsies game can get PUNISHED, and you need forethought and planning and being able to understand what your opponent is trying to do on a deeper level. Of course they're going to either see him as this daunting wall, or not see the entirety of what makes him so daunting.

This is why a lot of Smashers, even with Ryu, only see his combo potential and not everything else. They focus on the punish game because that's what they've been taught to prioritize.

Important note: I'm pretty butt at neutral myself, being neither an expert in Smash or SF, but I can see the difference.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Let's assume you aren't using a character who outranges Ganon. You just sit back and wait. Ganon walks forward. If you are throwing projectiles to zone him out, he'll use Wizard's Dropkick (Ganon is horribly non-viable if customs are banned so it's not really worth talking about non-custom Ganon). If you really do just wait, he walks to dtilt range which, presuming you aren't a swordsman as I said, you don't outrange so you can't stop him from getting here by attacking. If you try to retreat on the ground, you eventually run out of stage. If you try to jump over Ganon, he has a really good uair. Once Ganon is at his perfect range, he just pokes with varied timing until you get hit or do something to challenge him. You can try to do footsies dances to mess with Ganon's spacing, but he'll just try to read your movement and punish the movement itself (and anyone who mains a heavy should be expected to be very precise in a spacing war). This is all assuming Ganon is losing, of course. If he's up, he doesn't bother even poking and instead just stands there and waits for you to start hitting buttons.

I imagine that tactic does work against a lot of actual Ganon players. The general concept of playing Ganon is to just try to guess right as often as possible knowing that your right guesses pay off way more than their right guesses. If you play super lame, you're destroying their flow, and if they respond with the line of thinking "if he's not giving me attacks to beat with correct guesses, I have to open him up" then they're sure to lose badly. If the Ganon is actually even more slow-paced and careful than you, you'll almost certainly get a time out, but it's not obvious to me that Ganon should do badly. In fact, I expect he would be favored in most MUs since if you don't press advantages then Ganon's relative reward on hits versus yours goes up. I do think having the super lame in your pocket is smart since if you get a big lead you can shift to that style and watch as Ganon has no way to make up a deficit quickly at all.

I've always observed the most success against Ganon comes from playing a reasonably cautious neutral but, once you land a hit, going in hard and not letting Ganon out of disadvantage. Ganon's disadvantage state is really, really bad thanks to his physics, recovery, and general frame data all considered together; customs help a lot by giving him a usable recovery and super armor OoS (as well as some kind of usable button at all against the best projectile zoning), but it's still a big problem that can hurt him badly. I don't think Ganon is really a great character overall, but I think he's good enough to force people to deal with his game which largely amounts to forcing his opponent to make some correct reads at some point in the match to win.

 

[Ikes]

why are we talking about characters with no real approach options lmao

literally fighting ganon is "wait for him to try an option, block or dodge in your huge windows to do so, and punish that option"

sure he hits hard but hitting like a truck doesnt matter when the truck cant break 20mph. Defensive game damn near invalidates most heavies bar DK and MAAAAAAYBE charizard.

a lot of smashers have this weird idea that they HAVE to be doing something but sometimes just doing nothing and waiting for your opponent to try something dumb is the best option.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

With regards to Ganondorf, it doesn't matter if he's safe on shield. His neutral is so bad you're still in advantage anyway.

I've watched some of Verm's matches. People do not play the MU optimally. In a single grand finals game I saw a Lucario commit uneccesarily at least 10-15 times, and he got punished for it. If people played the MU properly Verm's results would be much worse despite being an amazing player

I'm guessing that's why A2Z always came up with claims like Ganon winning against Mario pre-1.1.1. A large part of his experience sounded like his opponents weren't playing the MU correctly. I never fully believed him.

 

[Dre89]

why are we talking about characters with no real approach options lmao

literally fighting ganon is "wait for him to try an option, block or dodge in your huge windows to do so, and punish that option"

sure he hits hard but hitting like a truck doesnt matter when the truck cant break 20mph. Defensive game damn near invalidates most heavies bar DK and MAAAAAAYBE charizard.

a lot of smashers have this weird idea that they HAVE to be doing something but sometimes just doing nothing and waiting for your opponent to try something dumb is the best option.

I find it odd that you mention DK, when DK is much worse in neutral against 'sit in shield and react' than Bowser is because of his bad dashgrab. Even mentioning Charizard over Bowser is odd seeing as Bowser's dash grab is way better, and dash grabbing is the counterplay to that gameplan.

DK is just the best heavy because he has the best advantaged states (best recovery too but that's not why he's considered to be better). He's the best against more aggressive play because of bair and his CQC is the best. But his neutral sucks against defensive play and he probably has the worst disadvantage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sitting in shield is the worst possible thing you could do against DK as he has the highest grab reward in the game lmao.
Bowser's dash grab range is a little bit better as he lunges forward a bit more, but they take the same time to come out and DK's ends 9 frames earlier so he's harder to punish.

 

[Dre89]

Sitting in shield is the worst possible thing you could do against DK as he has the highest grab reward in the game lmao.
Bowser's dash grab range is a little bit better as he lunges forward a bit more, but they take the same time to come out and DK's ends 9 frames earlier so he's harder to punish.

No

Play DK against a good player using a top tier. You cannot dash grab them because the range is so short that they can easily throw out a hit box in time and beat it.

The main way to grab top tiers is pivot grabbing. They're too safe on shield most of the time to shieldgrab. Pivot grabbing works because the range is so big that it can actually outspace hitboxes.

Bowser's dashgrab is massive, it's like DK's pivot grab, so it can outspace hitboxes quite easily. Seriously if DK had Bowser's dashgrab he'd be straight up broken lol.

Only way DK is landing a dashgrab against top tiers is if you read a roll or a spotdodge, or they land close to you with lag. Top tiers rarely have to do any of these things against DK because of their superior frame data.

So yeah, if you think DK's dashgrab is viable in neutral then you're either going off pure theorycraft or you're just versing bad players/characters.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well if you can show me a vid of someone just shield camping a good DK at midrange and winning because of it then sure I'll believe you.

Pretty sure that strategy is awful because he can just dashgrab or run up down-b or charge punch though lmao.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think that if you spam shield at his tilt's range, his only viable option is to keep tilting, if he decides to run he'll just make it obvious is an attempt to grab. In other words, the burst range of a dashgrab is so bad you can react to it.

I am not completely sure though, my only DK experience is with the local one that approaches with Spinning Kong *shrug*
:196;

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Well if you can show me a vid of someone just shield camping a good DK at midrange and winning because of it then sure I'll believe you.

Pretty sure that strategy is awful because he can just dashgrab or run up down-b or charge punch though lmao.

It's like saying that Mario does horrible on platform stages given that his opponent can just camp on platforms and not die until extreme percentages. It seems to work in theory, but I've seen almost nobody do it.

 

[Trifroze]

Just saying, people can do well at Smash without being good at footsies because footsies play a far, far smaller part in Smash than they do in Street Fighter. In Smash you can run, roll, jump at different heights, control your falling speed, mid-air jump into any direction sometimes several times, move more or less freely while in the air, airdodge and generally dance around the opponent any way you want whether you do it aerially or on the ground. There's always a ton of options the players have simply because of movement, whereas in Street Fighter there's few enough that you can actually completely focus on something like footsies and reaction to a select few approaches or buttons. Mobility is the central factor in Smash, not footsies, and it makes precise spacing much harder and more impractical than SF's back and forth walking does. In Smash, you should first consider movement and mix ups, then work on precise spacing much later along the line.

It's very largely the same with Smash 4 Ryu except you can remove the "move more or less freely while in the air" part, yet only that one. He has more attacks than other characters, but ZSS also generally utilizes more attacks than Falcon and still no one keeps emphasizing the difference in their difficulty levels, or between Sheik and Mario, or Pikachu and Luigi. What comes to his inputs, they do leave more room for error than other inputs in Smash, but they're still very simple.

I also disagree with any notions that Smash 4 is an easy fighting game. In addition to its fast pace (despite a few matchups out of 3000+ being sluggish) and the options you have to mix up between and consider from the opponent at all times, you also need to have some pretty immense knowledge with certain characters about when their setups and combos work on different characters, now factoring in rage as well. What's really nice is that when you get a rough idea of all the variables like fall speed, weight, size and rage, you sort of create a formula in your head instead of having to individually test your stuff on every character to know roughly when it works. Then there's also DI mixups and sometimes the requirement to react to it, spacing between sweetspots and sourspots to get exactly what you want and so on. A professional SF4 player would take a considerable amount of time to get actually good at Smash 4, or possibly not get there at all because it's a vastly different kind of game. Same vice-versa of course.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Just saying, people can do well at Smash without being good at footsies because footsies play a far, far smaller part in Smash than they do in Street Fighter. In Smash you can run, roll, jump at different heights, control your falling speed, mid-air jump into any direction sometimes several times, move more or less freely while in the air, airdodge and generally dance around the opponent any way you want whether you do it aerially or on the ground. There's always a ton of options the players have simply because of movement, whereas in Street Fighter there's few enough that you can actually completely focus on something like footsies and reaction to a select few approaches or buttons. Mobility is the central factor in Smash, not footsies, and it makes precise spacing much harder and more impractical than SF's back and forth walking does. In Smash, you should first consider movement and mix ups, then work on precise spacing much later along the line.

It's very largely the same with Smash 4 Ryu except you can remove the "move more or less freely while in the air" part, yet only that one. He has more attacks than other characters, but ZSS also generally utilizes more attacks than Falcon and still no one keeps emphasizing the difference in their difficulty levels, or between Sheik and Mario, or Pikachu and Luigi. What comes to his inputs, they do leave more room for error than other inputs in Smash, but they're still very simple.

I also disagree with any notions that Smash 4 is an easy fighting game. In addition to its fast pace (despite a few matchups out of 3000+ being sluggish) and the options you have to mix up between and consider from the opponent at all times, you also need to have some pretty immense knowledge with certain characters about when their setups and combos work on different characters, now factoring in rage as well. What's really nice is that when you get a rough idea of all the variables like fall speed, weight, size and rage, you sort of create a formula in your head instead of having to individually test your stuff on every character to know roughly when it works. Then there's also DI mixups and sometimes the requirement to react to it, spacing between sweetspots and sourspots to get exactly what you want and so on. A professional SF4 player would take a considerable amount of time to get actually good at Smash 4, or possibly not get there at all because it's a vastly different kind of game. Same vice-versa of course.

You pretty much nailed it again, man. You should be a moderator or something.

 

[Thinkaman]

...a few matchups out of 3000+...

Smash 4 currently has 1540 matchups including dittos; this remains true if you remove Dark Pit and add custom Palutena. (Custom Palutena is the only case I'd count as truly a totally different set of matchups; not even the Miis)


As an aside, discussion has been really good lately, at least imo. Shoutouts in particular to A2ZOMG for putting forth controversial statements with reasonable posts backing them up. Many people disagreed with key parts (I know I did myself), but solid discussion resulted that spanned many characters, concepts, and data points. It takes oft-unacknowledged courage to continue civil discussion in the face of a skeptical consensus, and actual persuasion is arbitrary when discussion is the real goal.

Similarly, I felt like everyone else did a good job of staying civil and avoiding a "us vs. them" discussion that we humans are so fond of. I look forward to more quality discussions like this in the future.

 

[Dre89]

Well if you can show me a vid of someone just shield camping a good DK at midrange and winning because of it then sure I'll believe you.

Pretty sure that strategy is awful because he can just dashgrab or run up down-b or charge punch though lmao.

Defensive shield play does not mean literally standing in one spot and shielding whenever they get close. It simply means shielding whenever they can possibly engage you. You still need to mix up your movement and feint with safely spaced attacks so that it's dangerous for them to get close enough to you so that their dash grab is unreactable.

That leads onto my second point, that I was refuting your claim that DK's dashgrab is good in neutral. The range is too short, it doesn't outspace hitboxes. The opponent can easily just throw out a hitbox.

If you think dashgrab actually works on top tiers in neutral, I'm going to assume you don't play DK against them. It's even more laughable that you think that it'll work when they're literally standing there shielding, that makes it even easier to react to lmao.

Dash downb, charge punch? Have you ever played DK before? Who are these top tier characters that have frame data so bad that this stuff is actually not punishable? Especially if they're just sitting there shielding. Of course is someone is just sitting there shielding, DK can do something about it. But why would you suggest the least safe options?

A more realistic scenario is for a top tier to play defensively, throwing out projectiles and attacks that are safe on shield, then wait t punish a commitment DK makes. You still have to mix up your options, otherwise it'd be too easy for DK to space or tilts on your shield, or to get into range where dashgrab becomes unreactable. Top tiers can punish him before he gets into that range.

 

[Ghostbone]

DK doesn't need to just dashgrab in neutral because shield camping isn't a viable strategy.

I didn't say it was a viable approach tool, just that you can't sit in shield vs DK.

 

[Trifroze]

Smash 4 currently has 1540 matchups including dittos; this remains true if you remove Dark Pit and add custom Palutena. (Custom Palutena is the only case I'd count as truly a totally different set of matchups; not even the Miis)

Oh yeah, I just went 55*55 and didn't think more about it, but that would've included Sheik vs ZSS and ZSS vs Sheik being different matchups for example.

 

[Ffamran]

Now I'm curious; what happens if you're playing a Street Fighter character, but isn't a Street Fighter character i.e. lacks multiple inputs, hit confirms, and other traditional fighting game mechanics? 'Cause that's how I feel Falco is most of the time. Ignoring the fact he jumps higher than anyone else (by default and consistently) and his normal air acceleration compared to Ryu, Falco for the most part moves and can be played like a crippled Ryu. Successful Falco players tend to be more cautious or have a strong ability to space well and control what is happening in their zone since if they can't, Falco gets ROFLstomped easily and can't make mistakes like Ryu. Players like AC, Manny Manito, Bravo, Gamegenie, and Keitaro as much as people don't like his "lame" play style do well and usually end up with clean matches. That is not to say you can't play a very aggressive, in-your-face game like Larry Lurr, GimR, TKBreezy, Kato, FOW, Eshura, and Cyro who all do well.

Outside of the obvious Ryu who can also be played without abandon, I can't think of any character who is more or less a Smashified Street Fighter. You could say Ike, Ganondorf, Little Mac, Marth, Sheik, or even Zelda, but they feel like "Smash" if that makes any sense. For one, despite having low air acceleration, Ike's aerial movement can be considered more lenient than Ryu's or how Ganondorf's seemingly restricted movement is just his overall low mobility and while Marth's been spacing things and playing footsies since Melee, he doesn't feel like a traditional fighting game character when like Ike, his jump isn't as awkward as Ryu's - from what people are saying -, his aerials aren't as commital because of that, and unlike Ryu who can choose to play for the hit or straightup combo you, Smash 4 Marth plays for the hit or follows up instead. Just a question and musing in the middle of the night is all. In other words, sleepy and crazy me probably isn't making any sense with this wall of text.

 

[Dre89]

DK doesn't need to just dashgrab in neutral because shield camping isn't a viable strategy.

I didn't say it was a viable approach tool, just that you can't sit in shield vs DK.

No you said that DK is the worst heavy to sit in shield against because of his grab reward

Which would imply that you consider dashgrabbing viable against shielding. Otherwise his grab reward would have nothing to do with why sitting in shield is bad against him.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you're just going to dash > shield all day against DK, he can pivot grab it easily or dash-grab it on a read.

It's a lot scarier against DK to just try to beat his neutral by shielding because he punishes you for it the hardest.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let's assume you aren't using a character who outranges Ganon. You just sit back and wait. Ganon walks forward. If you are throwing projectiles to zone him out, he'll use Wizard's Dropkick (Ganon is horribly non-viable if customs are banned so it's not really worth talking about non-custom Ganon). If you really do just wait, he walks to dtilt range which, presuming you aren't a swordsman as I said, you don't outrange so you can't stop him from getting here by attacking. If you try to retreat on the ground, you eventually run out of stage. If you try to jump over Ganon, he has a really good uair. Once Ganon is at his perfect range, he just pokes with varied timing until you get hit or do something to challenge him. You can try to do footsies dances to mess with Ganon's spacing, but he'll just try to read your movement and punish the movement itself (and anyone who mains a heavy should be expected to be very precise in a spacing war). This is all assuming Ganon is losing, of course. If he's up, he doesn't bother even poking and instead just stands there and waits for you to start hitting buttons.

I imagine that tactic does work against a lot of actual Ganon players. The general concept of playing Ganon is to just try to guess right as often as possible knowing that your right guesses pay off way more than their right guesses. If you play super lame, you're destroying their flow, and if they respond with the line of thinking "if he's not giving me attacks to beat with correct guesses, I have to open him up" then they're sure to lose badly. If the Ganon is actually even more slow-paced and careful than you, you'll almost certainly get a time out, but it's not obvious to me that Ganon should do badly. In fact, I expect he would be favored in most MUs since if you don't press advantages then Ganon's relative reward on hits versus yours goes up. I do think having the super lame in your pocket is smart since if you get a big lead you can shift to that style and watch as Ganon has no way to make up a deficit quickly at all.

I've always observed the most success against Ganon comes from playing a reasonably cautious neutral but, once you land a hit, going in hard and not letting Ganon out of disadvantage. Ganon's disadvantage state is really, really bad thanks to his physics, recovery, and general frame data all considered together; customs help a lot by giving him a usable recovery and super armor OoS (as well as some kind of usable button at all against the best projectile zoning), but it's still a big problem that can hurt him badly. I don't think Ganon is really a great character overall, but I think he's good enough to force people to deal with his game which largely amounts to forcing his opponent to make some correct reads at some point in the match to win.

*calls default Ganon horribly non-viable
*Ganon still gets top placing results under Kalm and Verm

Frankly, I would actually argue custom Ganon overall is less viable when the top tier threats of customs are probably harder matchups than anything he has in default settings. Custom Villager and Mario in particular are obvious examples.

 

[Yikarur]

DK's Pivot Grab Range is hugeeeee. Dash Grab is not everything.
In general that "shield beats anyone" is a pretty pointless claim. It didn't work out in Brawl (where people said that about ZSS) and it will not work out in Smash 4. The game is not that simple.

 

[Nu~]

*calls default Ganon horribly non-viable
*Ganon still gets top placing results under Kalm and Verm

Frankly, I would actually argue custom Ganon overall is less viable when the top tier threats of customs are probably harder matchups than anything he has in default settings. Custom Villager and Mario in particular are obvious examples.

I would agree if dark fists didn't give Ganon the ability to kill the opponent at 50 for messing up a string

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think people putting him in top 5, when he's probably about...8...on the tier list is terribly overrating him.

I dunno man. Three spots difference may not seem like much but I think it's actually quite significant when we're talking about the top 10. Sure, nobody's gonna care about whether ROB is 18th or 21st or whatever he actually is but at a certain level it starts becoming non-trivial. Three spots is the difference between the 3rd best and the 6th best character - the difference between being able to take on everybody successfully [including the best two characters] and being better off using a secondary in specific matchup. It's also the difference between the like 2nd worst character who is completely irredeemable and the 5th worst character who in this game may very well be able to get on some top and high tier characters' nerves.

It may not be "terribly" overrating somebody but it's definitely not something I'd shrug off as entirely inconsequential.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would agree if dark fists didn't give Ganon the ability to kill the opponent at 50 for messing up a string

Yeah, custom Ganon hinges pretty much on Dark Fists, both improving his recovery and cheesing people for mistakes.

Custom Mario however literally never needs to approach Ganon. And Scalding FLUDD + Fast Fireballs shuts down all variants of Wizkick in neutral. And Villager trip sapling is such a polarizing option in neutral it actually requires default Wizkick to get past. Not that Dropkick even helps Ganon recovery against Villager anyway.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXkvQaHcoU

Here's Ron's Mario for those who care btw. He doesn't do anything flashy or spectacular so a lot of people that have high expectations may be disappointed. I think his Mario is extremely good. It reminds of the way Masha used to play Falco in Brawl.

 

[Mario766]

*calls default Ganon horribly non-viable
*Ganon still gets top placing results under Kalm and Verm

Frankly, I would actually argue custom Ganon overall is less viable when the top tier threats of customs are probably harder matchups than anything he has in default settings. Custom Villager and Mario in particular are obvious examples.

These Ganons are also playing people who don't play the match-up right.


Kalm gets 4 side-bs in a row on people randomly, because they don't tech it. If you don't know how to tech Side-B, you clearly don't know the MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXkvQaHcoU

Here's Ron's Mario for those who care btw. He doesn't do anything flashy or spectacular so a lot of people that have high expectations may be disappointed. I think his Mario is extremely good. It reminds of the way Masha used to play Falco in Brawl.

I don't even know how you define "extremely good". His spacing really wasn't that great, and game 2 was more or less a gimmick when the Peach never needed to DI inwards or even airdodge against the D-throw edge setup at all.

This isn't even a question of being flashy or spectacular, just a lot of his gameplay was sloppy and only worked because his opponent didn't play that well either.

These Ganons are also playing people who don't play the match-up right.


Kalm gets 4 side-bs in a row on people randomly, because they don't tech it. If you don't know how to tech Side-B, you clearly don't know the MU.

Even good players will sometimes miss the tech. It's sometimes a legitimate mixup option mind you.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I don't even know how you "define" extremely good. His spacing really wasn't that great, and game 2 was more or less a gimmick when the Peach never needed to DI inwards or even airdodge against the D-throw edge setup at all.

This isn't even a question of being flashy or spectacular, just a lot of his gameplay was sloppy and only worked because his opponent didn't play that well either.

Do you just have low expectations for Mario in general (or any player that isn't Ally)?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Do you just have low expectations for Mario in general (or any player that isn't Ally)?

Did you even read my post?

I can clearly see that the Mario player made a lot of suboptimal choices and should have won a lot more convincingly if he actually was on point.

 

[DunnoBro]

Frankly, I would actually argue custom Ganon overall is less viable when the top tier threats of customs are probably harder matchups than anything he has in default settings. Custom Villager and Mario in particular are obvious examples.

Nah, custom ganon actually did fine vs custom villager due to dropkick and flame chain. With the new fuel mechanics, flame chain will raw kill villager on a 2+ regrab really reliably.

(You pretty much need flame chain to challenge it easily tho)

It wasn't great still but mostly because of default stuff like being literally Goliath as he slingshots you

 

[Mario766]

I don't even know how you define "extremely good". His spacing really wasn't that great, and game 2 was more or less a gimmick when the Peach never needed to DI inwards or even airdodge against the D-throw edge setup at all.

This isn't even a question of being flashy or spectacular, just a lot of his gameplay was sloppy and only worked because his opponent didn't play that well either.

Even good players will sometimes miss the tech. It's sometimes a legitimate mixup option mind you.

There's missing the tech.

Then there's missing it FOUR TIMES in a row.

 

[DunnoBro]

Unless ganon has guaranteed choke > dtilts on your character I don't think techs actually help that much. Those can still be read really hard too.

 

[Ffamran]

DK's Pivot Grab Range is hugeeeee. Dash Grab is not everything.
In general that "shield beats anyone" is a pretty pointless claim. It didn't work out in Brawl (where people said that about ZSS) and it will not work out in Smash 4. The game is not that simple.

So is Bowser's. Pivot grabs in general have stupid range and it's even stated by the developers that they have stupid range. Meanwhile, T-Rexondorf and Koopa Wrist.

Bowser and DK have the largest grab range, I think.

Zelda and Palutena both had their pivot grabs nerfed in 1.0.4.

 

[Mario766]

Unless ganon has guaranteed choke > dtilts on your character I don't think techs actually help that much. Those can still be read really hard too.

A good chunk of the cast has follow-ups off missed tech. It's very uncommon for Ganon to get nothing off a missed tech.


It's one of the reasons Ike destroys Ganon.

One of several.

 

[DunnoBro]

A good chunk of the cast has follow-ups off missed tech. It's very uncommon for Ganon to get nothing off a missed tech.

Not really, he just can't do anything to some(I think most) characters if they buffer get-up options. Recall he doesn't have the best frame data.

I'm not too familar with this game, but when people tech cause that means there's no "wait" or "get-up attack" options. It's just get-up, or roll in/away at that time. Techrolls tend to be less safe than get-up rolls, too.

 

[Mario766]

When you miss the tech, you're locked in the hard knockdown animation for some time, this allows him to hit you with one of his options, which are frame 10 or less.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A good chunk of the cast has follow-ups off missed tech. It's very uncommon for Ganon to get nothing off a missed tech.


It's one of the reasons Ike destroys Ganon.

One of several.

Ike doesn't destroy Ganon, that matchup is more like 55/45 Ike's favor. Especially if the Ganon knows the spacing to edgeguard Ike out of his Up-B, it's really not a lopsided matchup for Ganon at all. Ganon can get in Ike's zone if he makes a mistake and juggle him pretty efficiently, and his range is about equal to Ike's on average on important moves.

Note that Eruption is not free on Ganon's recovery, like it is on Falcon's. Ganon fist hitbox on Up-B requires fairly strict timing to beat, and also the move travels fast enough to be hard to punish on reaction.

 

[Ffamran]

There's a chart on what Ganondorf can do with Flame Choke on missed techs and such: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-wise-ganon-ats-competitive-discussion-guides-data.368849/, if anyone wants to reference.

 

[DunnoBro]

When you miss the tech, you're locked in the hard knockdown animation for some time, this allows him to hit you with one of his options, which are frame 10 or less.

Yea, unfortunately "some time" doesn't allow his only low hitting move (dtilt) to connect in time unless they're particularly large or didn't buffer properly.

 

[wedl!!]

probably wording this wrong, but iirc you can buffer options even if you miss the tech on flame choke and Ganon can't hit you

probably just a wifi thing, or char dependent