Changes you would like to see for Little Mac

[Splash Damage]

Your suggested nerfs dont do or change anything, except possibly make his ground game (the one thing he has going for him) slightly less efficient.

And buffing a character does not mean you need to "balance it out" by nerfing something in return.

1.That's exactly why I asked for ideas. That was the whole point of posting the short list, to get more people's input.
2.Doesn't necessarily mean that you have to balance it out, but when a character is already noticably good to the point of having a solid, possibly favorable matchup against one of the most common top tiers(Being Luigi. I know I insinuated otherwise earlier, but I have since had a change of mind with in-bracket experience and consultation of other players at my local), asking for all the stuff we have been asking for in Doom's and my list would likely make him too good. That's pretty simple to see.
Now, are we gonna keep making a pointless debate that's going nowhere, or are we actually going to continue the changelist discussion like we should be?

-Change the KO punch building mechanics to one of these options
~100% damage dealt fills the meter, 334% damage taken also fills the meter.
~175% in total, taken or recieved, fills the meter(fight-the-campers version. This is definitely probably the best option)
-Push back Jab1&Jab2's IASA frames to enable combos out of them
-Increase ground jump height to enable him to reach more platforms, while keeping his second jump and UpB the same heights(Duck Hunt stage buff)
-Make his recovery half-decent again(In normal terms, make his Side-B go the same distance it did pre-patch)
-Increase F-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Decrease roll speed by 3-4 frames

 

[TakeYourHeart]

-Change the KO punch building mechanics to one of these options
~100% damage dealt fills the meter, 334% damage taken also fills the meter.
~175% in total, taken or recieved, fills the meter(fight-the-campers version. This is definitely probably the best option)
-Push back Jab1&Jab2's IASA frames to enable combos out of them
-Increase ground jump height to enable him to reach more platforms, while keeping his second jump and UpB the same heights(Duck Hunt stage buff)
-Make his recovery half-decent again(In normal terms, make his Side-B go the same distance it did pre-patch)
-Increase F-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Decrease roll speed by 3-4 frames

I can agree with most of these, though for the "fight-the campers" version of the KO meter, I feel would be more ideal for everyone if it was at more 110 to 120% taken or received. That way it wouldn't be a complete dismissal of @deepseadiva and others concerns while validating yours somewhat.

I know you like the idea of decisively outplaying your opponent, but in my opinion, Smash is at it's best when two players of equal skill are going at it, which is arguably where Mac needs it the most. Plus, I feel your version of things might turn the KO Punch into a Win-more mechanic, somewhat curbing the potential for other players to make a comeback when down a stock (the most skillful thing in Smash after all, is to deal with a sudden turn of the tides).

 

[Splash Damage]

I can agree with most of these, though for the "fight-the campers" version of the KO meter, I feel would be more ideal for everyone if it was at more 110 to 120% taken or received. That way it wouldn't be a complete dismissal of @deepseadiva and others concerns while validating yours somewhat.

I see your POV, though 110% is far too lenient. That way, he only has to take and recieve 55% only to fill it. That is absurdly easy and almost a bit busted. 55% will ensure that he has it before the end of their first stock, so even if he's a bit lucky or has even a small burst of momentum, there's the game. Take their first stock whiel you're at 60%, two d-tilts, that's the game. Far too intense if you ask me.

I know you like the idea of decisively outplaying your opponent, but in my opinion, Smash is at it's best when two players of equal skill are going at it, which is arguably where Mac needs it the most. Plus, I feel your version of things might turn the KO Punch into a Win-more mechanic, somewhat curbing the potential for other players to make a comeback when down a stock (the most skillful thing in Smash after all, is to deal with a sudden turn of the tides).

If you are of equal skill to your opponent, you shouldn't be randomly given an instant kill move for just playing like you should. That would polarize the character into making your best win strategy just that move. It's the same reason some people hate Customs:A few customs polarize a character's moveset into being focused solely around that move rather than their whole moveset working together. Additionally, anytime a defense for a move even uses the word "Comeback," then it is not something worth defending. Period. There hasn't been a single time in a tournament match where I hit a KO punch and after the match felt accomplished. I felt like I did a good job keeping composure and recognizing their habits, sure, but that's not much.

 

[jet56]

If you are of equal skill to your opponent, you shouldn't be randomly given an instant kill move for just playing like you should. That would polarize the character into making your best win strategy just that move. It's the same reason some people hate Customs:A few customs polarize a character's moveset into being focused solely around that move rather than their whole moveset working together. Additionally, anytime a defense for a move even uses the word "Comeback," then it is not something worth defending. Period. There hasn't been a single time in a tournament match where I hit a KO punch and after the match felt accomplished. I felt like I did a good job keeping composure and recognizing their habits, sure, but that's not much.

this is why i believe they designed it to be so easy to lose, any knockback attack after 6 seconds ends up having them lose it. and since mac can die at early percents, they might not even get the ko punch by that time. in my opinion its perfectly balanced. the mechanic also helps to balance the character. being a LM main, he has always been a B tier character, and should be used for counter picking or on an unsuspecting opponent who doesn't know the matchup. its true that giving someone and insta-kill move for losing seems unfair, but a good player won't get hit by it, and take advantage of the lag time if they miss. even solid little mac players have a hard time landing it.

on a side note, the only change i want to see for little mac is a buff of his side b (preferably to pre patch distance). his recovery is awful enough, giving him a little more distance on a move that is already easily read and gimpable won't hurt. he's a balanced character and doesn't need any changes. he's a high learning curve character, becuase you have to know his ENTIRE moveset, frame data, and advanced techniques (roll cancel-grabbing, foxtrot, pivoting, etc.) as well as combos and kill setups to use him effectively. but in my opinion he was never designed to be a solo-main (which is what high tier characters are) but a mid tier character that is good as pocket or co-main character. and i think it would be unhealthy to either buff (he would be op) or nerf (he already as easily exploitable weaknesses) the character. just my thoughts.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Can we talk about the fact that LM not only has no air game, a terrible grab, and an awful recovery, but is a lightweight on top of that? Like dude, even lucario is pretty heavy so that he can actually make use of his aura, but LM dies super early to stuff other characters shrug off. How do you give a character awful recovery (and nerf it later on, I might add) and make him a lightweight?

 

[Splash Damage]

this is why i believe they designed it to be so easy to lose, any knockback attack after 6 seconds ends up having them lose it. and since mac can die at early percents, they might not even get the ko punch by that time. in my opinion its perfectly balanced. the mechanic also helps to balance the character. being a LM main, he has always been a B tier character, and should be used for counter picking or on an unsuspecting opponent who doesn't know the matchup. its true that giving someone and insta-kill move for losing seems unfair, but a good player won't get hit by it, and take advantage of the lag time if they miss. even solid little mac players have a hard time landing it.

I've seen this argument pop up countless times on this thread.
1.Once more from the top, giving the worse player a frame-9 instakill move that true combos out of both a frame 1 jab and frame 3 D-tilt as a reward for being worse than his opponent is not and will never be a proper balancing factor/buff. Comeback mechanics are just that, an ability for the worse player to come back win. This has happened both in and against my favor more times than I can count, and I'm very surprised that anyone else is defending it.
2. In tournament, I have consistently survived to over 80% almost every stock, and whenever I don't it's due entirely to my overextension which is a fault of my own, not the character. Proper combo DI and jump conservation can get him back from a much larger amount of situations than he lets on, I even surprise myself sometimes when attempting to recover. Pair that with Flaming Straight Lunge, and he gets a much better ability to recover. Basically, not playing smart is what gets him gimped. And if you're not playing smart and getting gimped, then I see absolutely no reason why you should be getting an instakill move over someone who's actually outplaying his opponent.
3."A good player won't get hit by it." This is only true if the Little Mac player isn't also a good player and can't properly read his opponent's fear reactions and habits. Any player worth their salt should know what their opponent will do in reaction to fear, and assuming the LM player was good enough to convincingly take the opponent's stock and get the KO punch with a stock lead, then he's likely going to be able to make a simple spotdodge/roll read to hit a few d-tilts. Even good players have habits,a nd if you're able to read those habits, then you should be the one getting the instakill move. On top of this, considering how safe, fast, and low-commitment all of the moves that combo into it are, I'd say it's pretty easy to get a lucky D-tilt into KO punch against a player who's better than you. Believe me, I've seen it happen. You see some crazy stuff in rotations.
One final thing: people seem to not notice that if it were reversed, you would still be able to make comebacks with it. LEt's say you get Mac edgeguarded on your first stock, but are able to keep your composure. After that, you take their first stock with yourself at 70%. A bad position, but you'd still have the KO punch, land it, and make the 2-stock comeback even after getting edgeguarded.
Additionally, after thinking about it more, having the numbers reversed would actually benefit Mac much more against campers than evening them. THinking back to a set I had against a campy Luigi, my main gameplan was to consistently D-tilt his fireballs, stuff his grab approaches with D-tilt or jab, then eat through his aerial apporaches with Up-smash to build KO meter from the damage taken. Then, I would wait for him to be at a good percentage to go for a hard read to kill, or wait until I got the KO punch from the repeating process. However, I would have gotten the KO punch at least twice as fast if it was reversed, as I was getting ~7% damage dealt for every fireball he threw(Which was upwards of six for every time we were in neutral), 15% from every time he apprached with grab(Even more if it was a D-tilt due to conversions), and upwards of 30% every time he approached with an aerial. I guarantee that I would have had at least six KO punches that set had the meter been the way I'm proposing. Same goes for Rosalina;I hit both her and the luma? That 30% D-tilt to D-pivoted F-smash becomes ~50% for the meter, as opposed to taking more damage that puts me in a bad position and sets me up for a gimp. Everyone's talking about how he would get gimped before doing enough damage to fill it, though they're ignoring that making it so that you have to take damage to fill it litterally guarantees it to much more of an extent. Either you maybe take damage while going in on them and taking a stock in a 0-death, or you are forced to take damage to get the same reward, which, according to everyone's statements, is much more likely to set you up for a gimp than the latter.
TL:DR:Reversing the numbers of Little Mac's KO punch meter would be a straight upgrade that would benefit him far more in bracket than keeping them the way they are. I know this as complete fact due to extensive testing in tournament and in the lab, as well as the agreement of other proficient Macs such as Doom.

Can we talk about the fact that LM not only has no air game, a terrible grab, and an awful recovery, but is a lightweight on top of that? Like dude, even lucario is pretty heavy so that he can actually make use of his aura, but LM dies super early to stuff other characters shrug off. How do you give a character awful recovery (and nerf it later on, I might add) and make him a lightweight?

This is something I can understand. I'm less concerned about how easily it gets him gimped, but how much more easily it just gets him killed. dying to Dr.Mario F-smashes at 60% in the middle of T&C is not something that should be possible to a character with weaknesses/strengths so polarizing, though I wonder if a weight buff would even be possible/on the table.

 

[jet56]

I've seen this argument pop up countless times on this thread.
1.Once more from the top, giving the worse player a frame-9 instakill move that true combos out of both a frame 1 jab and frame 3 D-tilt as a reward for being worse than his opponent is not and will never be a proper balancing factor/buff. Comeback mechanics are just that, an ability for the worse player to come back win. This has happened both in and against my favor more times than I can count, and I'm very surprised that anyone else is defending it.
2. In tournament, I have consistently survived to over 80% almost every stock, and whenever I don't it's due entirely to my overextension which is a fault of my own, not the character. Proper combo DI and jump conservation can get him back from a much larger amount of situations than he lets on, I even surprise myself sometimes when attempting to recover. Pair that with Flaming Straight Lunge, and he gets a much better ability to recover. Basically, not playing smart is what gets him gimped. And if you're not playing smart and getting gimped, then I see absolutely no reason why you should be getting an instakill move over someone who's actually outplaying his opponent.
3."A good player won't get hit by it." This is only true if the Little Mac player isn't also a good player and can't properly read his opponent's fear reactions and habits. Any player worth their salt should know what their opponent will do in reaction to fear, and assuming the LM player was good enough to convincingly take the opponent's stock and get the KO punch with a stock lead, then he's likely going to be able to make a simple spotdodge/roll read to hit a few d-tilts. Even good players have habits,a nd if you're able to read those habits, then you should be the one getting the instakill move. On top of this, considering how safe, fast, and low-commitment all of the moves that combo into it are, I'd say it's pretty easy to get a lucky D-tilt into KO punch against a player who's better than you. Believe me, I've seen it happen. You see some crazy stuff in rotations.
One final thing: people seem to not notice that if it were reversed, you would still be able to make comebacks with it. LEt's say you get Mac edgeguarded on your first stock, but are able to keep your composure. After that, you take their first stock with yourself at 70%. A bad position, but you'd still have the KO punch, land it, and make the 2-stock comeback even after getting edgeguarded.
Additionally, after thinking about it more, having the numbers reversed would actually benefit Mac much more against campers than evening them. THinking back to a set I had against a campy Luigi, my main gameplan was to consistently D-tilt his fireballs, stuff his grab approaches with D-tilt or jab, then eat through his aerial apporaches with Up-smash to build KO meter from the damage taken. Then, I would wait for him to be at a good percentage to go for a hard read to kill, or wait until I got the KO punch from the repeating process. However, I would have gotten the KO punch at least twice as fast if it was reversed, as I was getting ~7% damage dealt for every fireball he threw(Which was upwards of six for every time we were in neutral), 15% from every time he apprached with grab(Even more if it was a D-tilt due to conversions), and upwards of 30% every time he approached with an aerial. I guarantee that I would have had at least six KO punches that set had the meter been the way I'm proposing. Same goes for Rosalina;I hit both her and the luma? That 30% D-tilt to D-pivoted F-smash becomes ~50% for the meter, as opposed to taking more damage that puts me in a bad position and sets me up for a gimp. Everyone's talking about how he would get gimped before doing enough damage to fill it, though they're ignoring that making it so that you have to take damage to fill it litterally guarantees it to much more of an extent. Either you maybe take damage while going in on them and taking a stock in a 0-death, or you are forced to take damage to get the same reward, which, according to everyone's statements, is much more likely to set you up for a gimp than the latter.
TL:DR:Reversing the numbers of Little Mac's KO punch meter would be a straight upgrade that would benefit him far more in bracket than keeping them the way they are. I know this as complete fact due to extensive testing in tournament and in the lab, as well as the agreement of other proficient Macs such as Doom.

1.i think the mindset involved for the k.o. punch when it was designed is that good players wouldn't need it if they were already winning, and that it helps worse players stay in the game. like how the tripping mechanic was installed in brawl to keep the game fair to all players of varying skill levels.(even though competitive players hated this.) to be honest i don't like the way the mechanic for the k.o. punch is either, but its how it was set up, and i don't think its going to change. however i will concede that it would be better to swap the mechanic for competitive players sakes. this would only benefit competitave players though, not casuals (who make up most of the playerbase.)
2.yes this is true, however, it must be admitted that off stage gameplay is difficult for mac, and he is one of the easiest characters to gimp, making it a higher chance you lose a stock at low percents. a right guess is all the opponent needs to get you killed, and being a lightweight doesn't help either. this is also why the k.o. punch might have been set up this way, to reward players for surviving at high percents with mac. (however, this is not the primary reason in my opinion.)
3. the k.o. punch is stressful on both sides, since after 6 seconds passes, it turns into a huge mindgame for both players. if you get hit by a k.o. punch at a high level tournament, you got mind-gamed and outplayed in my opinion. a bad player will rarely get the lucky shot in, and a good player will keep his composure during this time.
overall, i believe there are benefits to leaving the k.o. punch the way it is and changing it. from what i can tell, you don't like rewarding players for bad play, which i get and agree with. you have also changed my opinion on leaving the k.o. punch the way it is, i now think your idea would be better. however this would benefit the competitive scene mostly, and i think thats where a bias sets in. since most of the playerbase is casual, thats why the k.o. punch is set up the way it is to help out casual players against other casuals and even competitive players.. its stupid yes, but this is why it was designed this way and why it won't change. this is also why i don't plan on talking about a topic that's likely not going to happen, although i still agree that your idea of changing the mechanic would be better. remember though, that sakurai is trying to strike a balance for both competitive and casual players.

 

[Splash Damage]

It's not about whether or not it will change, it's about whether or not it should change, that was the point of this thread. On your analogy of tripping, I'm sure the way the crowd reacted to that dictates the opinion of it and what its fate was. AKA all those pitchforks and torches thrown on Sakurai's doorstep were for a good cause In any event, a number reversal would essentially be a guarantee that the better player would always win, and the worse player always lose. Anyone who can get mindgamed and 0-deathed by one of the most exploitable characters in the game might be better off getting killed at 20%.
Also, on your topic of MAc's apility to get gimped, he can't be grabbed or offstage if he's playing smart. His moveset is one of if not the best for avoiding grabs with the pairing of D-tilt, Jab, and pivot F-tilt. If you keep up your spacing the best it could possibly be, you won't ever be offstage. And even if you are, an invincible frame-3 up-B and heavy armor huge distance neutral-B are more than sufficient.

 

[jet56]

if this were to happen though, a good player would gain a powerful tool, and the opponent would have an even harder time trying to come back. doesn't seem fair to me, and im sure it wasn't seen as fair when it was considered. tbh, little mac players would rejoice, but the rest of the smash community wouldn't, as it would be seen as unfair and op. and since tripping was so violently rejected, i think they would take the risk of a small base being upset vs a large playerbase. in my opinion, you shouldn't need the k.o. punch to win or play well with little mac, and having it as a comeback tool seems fine to me. maybe its unfair for bad players to get powerful tools for losing, but closing the gap between a bad player and a good player so both can still compete with each other has been something sakurai has been trying to do for a while now, and k.o. punch represents that. it is just a game, and if the k.o. punch becomes that much of a problem, it will see a ban at a tournament or other high tier event. do i want it to change? yes, from a competitive perspective. but i don't mind it being a comeback tool for weaker players.
on the gimp, if its really not a big problem for most good players, then his recovery being bad shouldn't be an issue, since he can get to the stage most of the time without a problem as long as he isn't launched too far. which means he doesn't need any buffs right?

 

[HyperL]

Can we talk about the fact that LM not only has no air game, a terrible grab, and an awful recovery, but is a lightweight on top of that? Like dude, even lucario is pretty heavy so that he can actually make use of his aura, but LM dies super early to stuff other characters shrug off. How do you give a character awful recovery (and nerf it later on, I might add) and make him a lightweight?

Hey. Just in case you did not notice, I've pointed this out before.

Hey, I noticed that is very light, which is very bad for a character with such poor recovery because he can be knocked out of the stage too early.
So what if his weight is upgraded to the heavyweight division?
That would make him a lot more durable, no?

Nothing to be concerned about though, i just wanted a little piece of the cake.

 

[HyperL]

Hum, i don't know about you guys, but i think LM is not strong enough in terms of damage and knockback. Yes he has a great framedata, but i think he needs the power to finish the job earlier (especially when the opponents can finish us off earlier). If we give him something close to ganon's power for example, he would turn into a die early/kills early character, instead of a die early/kills kind of early one. If i'm wrong please feel free to insult me....

 

[jet56]

if we gave LM ganon smash power with his speed and low cooldown, he would be beyond op. not to mention the super armor involved. killing someone with a non charged foward smash with super armor and low cooldown at 60% would be too much. and his smashes already have good knockback and damage on it.

 

[HyperL]

if we gave LM ganon smash power with his speed and low cooldown, he would be beyond op. not to mention the super armor involved. killing someone with a non charged foward smash with super armor and low cooldown at 60% would be too much. and his smashes already have good knockback and damage on it.

Yeah, Ganon's power is a bit too much, but even if he was overpowered on the ground, he would still be weak in the air, have a poor recovery and be lightweight. Just like i said, he would be a die early/kill early character, as in a very powerful character, and a very bad one fused together.

Actually, this is basically buffing him where he's already good at, instead of touching his weaknesses, which i think is far more interesting than just buffing weaknesses.

 

[TakeYourHeart]

I see your POV, though 110% is far too lenient. That way, he only has to take and recieve 55% only to fill it. That is absurdly easy and almost a bit busted. 55% will ensure that he has it before the end of their first stock, so even if he's a bit lucky or has even a small burst of momentum, there's the game. Take their first stock whiel you're at 60%, two d-tilts, that's the game. Far too intense if you ask me.


If you are of equal skill to your opponent, you shouldn't be randomly given an instant kill move for just playing like you should. That would polarize the character into making your best win strategy just that move. It's the same reason some people hate Customs:A few customs polarize a character's moveset into being focused solely around that move rather than their whole moveset working together. Additionally, anytime a defense for a move even uses the word "Comeback," then it is not something worth defending. Period. There hasn't been a single time in a tournament match where I hit a KO punch and after the match felt accomplished. I felt like I did a good job keeping composure and recognizing their habits, sure, but that's not much.

In hindsight, yes 110 is a bit much. I haven't been playing much the past few days due to some life stuff and me paying more attention to % and my opponent when I play over the meter. Maybe 130-150%? It's one of those things that would take testing to figure out, something we lack when discussing hypotheticals.

Then again, it's only natural such a swingy mechanic has such debate, but I think I still stand by the notion that there should be some balance between the view of it being a comeback mechanic (with effort, that or your opponent screwed around too much with the kill), but also something you need to put effort into for a semi early kill (like 70% plus) to and finally, TBH don't really need if you're gonna curbstomp anyway.

Besides the point, I disagree Mac should get a weight upgrade as it's untrue to the idea of him being the underdog who faces opponents bigger and have much more weight then his little but muscular body. And that there are other buffs that could rectify the problem (Side-B getting it's distance back).

 

[Splash Damage]

if this were to happen though, a good player would gain a powerful tool, and the opponent would have an even harder time trying to come back. doesn't seem fair to me, and im sure it wasn't seen as fair when it was considered. tbh, little mac players would rejoice, but the rest of the smash community wouldn't, as it would be seen as unfair and op. and since tripping was so violently rejected, i think they would take the risk of a small base being upset vs a large playerbase. in my opinion, you shouldn't need the k.o. punch to win or play well with little mac, and having it as a comeback tool seems fine to me. maybe its unfair for bad players to get powerful tools for losing, but closing the gap between a bad player and a good player so both can still compete with each other has been something sakurai has been trying to do for a while now, and k.o. punch represents that. it is just a game, and if the k.o. punch becomes that much of a problem, it will see a ban at a tournament or other high tier event. do i want it to change? yes, from a competitive perspective. but i don't mind it being a comeback tool for weaker players.

I dont mind it being a comeback tool for weaker, non-turnament players either. But that doesn't benefit tournament players, i.e. me. It hinders them. I don't mind Tripping from a casual perspective either, but that doesn't mean anything about serious play. Like i've already said, this thread never had the mindset of "what will happen," It's always been "What should happen."
"In tournament, the weaker player(opponent who got 0-deathed) will have a much harder time trying to come back and win."
But...doesn't that already happen? That's how it should be, the worse player should never win, and the better player should always win. Anything at all in a FG that goes against this design is a poor design choice. If the KO punch build mechanics being reversed would do anything at all to give the better player a more guaranteed chance of winning, then there's no reason at all why it wouldn't be better that way.

 

[Solreth]

Macs rapid jab needs to lift opponents higher to prevent instant DI to ground with free shield-to-punish. It needs increased hit stun so it can't be nair'd through.

Macs F-tilt needs reduced end lag, and to link 1-2 better/ more consistently

significant Increased grab range, its part of ground game and he has nothing safe on shield as is.

(Fun Optional) Increased shield breaker off of downangled F-smash (Full Charge is comparable to marths)

Safer hitbox vs hurtbox on Up-B

Comparable ledge snap to rest of cast.

Reduced dead zones in close quarter combat (smashes). Its inconsistent with the design/concept of the character.

If all of this was implemented, mac would be High Tier. (Top 12-15)

 

[Splash Damage]

I'd say that's an accurate list, covers almost all bases for high level Mac play. So, we're all fine with that changelist?

 

[Ghidorah14]

If nothing else, we need an increase to the grab range. LM doesnt get gain much from a grab beyond %, so we might as well make it a more viable option.

 

[Kil3r]

What do you guys think about making KO Punch's endlag much lower? Let it stay punishable if you want but not a insta-death on whiff like it is now.

 

[Splash Damage]

It's a frame 9 move that lunges forward, has humongous hitboxes, kills at 18%, and can combo out of either a frame 3 or frame 1 move. I'd say the endlag is justified.

 

[IrkenPPG]

Make side B recovery better
Remove super armor on all smash attacks
Nerf counter knockback and. Add more end lag by 5 frames
Buff his aierals
KO punch is fine
Add 3 frames of endlag to his forward smash and 2 frames to his dash attack
Basically change him altogether

 

[Splash Damage]

That's implying that his overall design even needs to be changed rather than polished.

 

[Solreth]

The thread is "How would you change little mac" not "how would you change little mac into a different character"

I think its crucial to honor the initial intent of his design when factoring how to change mac.

 

[jet56]

Macs rapid jab needs to lift opponents higher to prevent instant DI to ground with free shield-to-punish. It needs increased hit stun so it can't be nair'd through.

Macs F-tilt needs reduced end lag, and to link 1-2 better/ more consistently

significant Increased grab range, its part of ground game and he has nothing safe on shield as is.

(Fun Optional) Increased shield breaker off of downangled F-smash (Full Charge is comparable to marths)

Safer hitbox vs hurtbox on Up-B

Comparable ledge snap to rest of cast.

Reduced dead zones in close quarter combat (smashes). Its inconsistent with the design/concept of the character.

If all of this was implemented, mac would be High Tier. (Top 12-15)

f-tilt i think is fine on end lag, although i do get punished for it quite often though. he does need better link on the 1-2.

"but he has gloves its part of the character design" is what most people use to defend his horrible grab game. ok, but i shouldn't have to bear hug my opponent to grab them. just a little more range.

i thought i was the only one who wished his angled f-smash punished shields more, because thats annoying when an opp. throws up shied and waits.

havent noticed this, it would be nice, but we don't need it for up-b.

this or pre patch side b recovery, ill take one or the other.

this is a problem, but only rarely, could live without it, but would be nice if it was fixed.

mac is in top 20, if played right. top 10 if these patches were put in place.

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

I keep hearing from people that he should lose his super armor or KO punch in return for better recovery. Why? He can easily lose his KO punch. His super armor isnt the end all be all. It's not some broken move. He doesn't need to lose anything to justify slightly better recovery.

 

[jet56]

it wouldn't matter if he lost the super armor on the k.o. punch or not for better recovery, i would take it, since the super armor is situational at times, and you typically aren't using the k.o. punch in response to a hard read. they can take it for all i care, give me back my pre 1.0.4 side b recovery.

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

it wouldn't matter if he lost the super armor on the k.o. punch or not for better recovery, i would take it, since the super armor is situational at times, and you typically aren't using the k.o. punch in response to a hard read. they can take it for all i care, give me back my pre 1.0.4 side b recovery.

Well the point is that people act like it would be ridiculous to buff his recovery a little if you don't remove something from the guy when he would be balanced with better recovery. It's ridiculous how some people have blown the KO punch and armor out of proportion. Especially the armor.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Well the point is that people act like it would be ridiculous to buff his recover a little if you don't remove something from the guy when he would be balanced with better recovery. It's ridiculous how some people have blown the KO punch and armor out of proportion. Especially the armor.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Sometimes, the way people talk, you'd think we were back in the early 3DS days, when mac was considered OP. I mean, the super armor isnt even that big of a deal when you consider you only get it once the move is already being thrown out there. It's not as if you can do a fully charged f-smash and not be interrupted. And when you also consider how quickly mac's smashes begin and end, you realize that there is very small window for you to have super armor.

And for doc's sake people, stop saying that KO punch needs to be nerfed! The move is hard enough to land in the first place, dont go making the reward you get for landing it less than it is!

Next thing you know, people will start asking for dtilt nerfs...

 

[TheSqushiestManatee]

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Sometimes, the way people talk, you'd think we were back in the early 3DS days, when mac was considered OP. I mean, the super armor isnt even that big of a deal when you consider you only get it once the move is already being thrown out there. It's not as if you can do a fully charged f-smash and not be interrupted. And when you also consider how quickly mac's smashes begin and end, you realize that there is very small window for you to have super armor.

And for doc's sake people, stop saying that KO punch needs to be nerfed! The move is hard enough to land in the first place, dont go making the reward you get for landing it less than it is!

Next thing you know, people will start asking for dtilt nerfs...

Well to be fair he can score very easy combos out of down tilt and it does too much damage. They need to nerf that. Oh and his up special kills too early as well. And for his great ground game he needs to lose his second jump I mean thats just fair.

 

[Tino]

An increase in his grab range would be nice

And I don't see any reason why the K.O. Upprecut should be nerfed since it's not that easy to hit anyways.

 

[Man of shame]

Better grabs and throw for have amazing land game his throws are mediocre he needs buffed throws like a kill throw and and make down throw like Mario's down throw ,other then that buff side b recovery.

 

[CHOVI]

Better grabs and throw for have amazing land game his throws are mediocre he needs buffed throws like a kill throw and and make down throw like Mario's down throw ,other then that buff side b recovery.

I honestly don't see a boxer having a kill throw

 

[Man of shame]

I honestly don't see a boxer having a kill throw

I don't see why a robot would have one or why a kid with butterfly-net has onelittle mac probably lifts weights so therefore he should easily be able to lift opponents and throw them off to the blast zone.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Better grabs and throw for have amazing land game his throws are mediocre he needs buffed throws like a kill throw and and make down throw like Mario's down throw ,other then that buff side b recovery.

i like mac's forward throw because it sends people at a low angle horizontally so it can lead into a jab lock if they miss their tech
i think it would be nice if mac had a down throw kinda like brawl game and watch where it would just throw you on the ground so you could tech chase with it or follow up with a smash if they miss their tech...other than that just make its base knock back and knock back scaling less and decrease its ending lag so can combo a smash off of it or something.
mac's back throw kills...but only on the edge at like 150%...idk...maybe make it more powerful i mean mac is a pretty strong dude

 

[TakeYourHeart]

I don't see why a robot would have one or why a kid with butterfly-net has onelittle mac probably lifts weights so therefore he should easily be able to lift opponents and throw them off to the blast zone.

Personally I don't really see the argument for Mac with a kill throw from a game design perspective or really flavor either. Like sure boxers are good at clinching (basically grabs to stop your foe from throwing punches for a little while the ref breaks the fighters up), so it's more defensive then anything. Making Mac's grab range and speed better? Understandable. Kill throws? Nah.

Doesn't need it anyway.

 

[Splash Damage]

The thing some people dont notice is that all his throws are very good(9% D-throw & Techchase/jablock Forward& Back throws), and that the only downside is the range and frame data of his grabs. He doesn't need an even better throw game, just an even better grab game. At most, make his up throw like Falcon's/Marths maybe? So that it would kill ~180%? Wouldn't mattr much at all considering that he kills 100% earlier than that, so I don't see him needing it. Additionally, a practical kill throw(Lke Sonic's B-throw) would be a lot for Mac to have on top of all of his already absurd kill power. Just buff his grab range and give him reasonable kill combos out of some of his throws. That's the priority.

 

[Zodiacx10]

I'd like to point out some things i noticed about mac while experimenting around in training mode today.

first off mac's rapid jab doesn't seem to combo very well. most of the time the hits don't combo into each other very much at all. i tried other characters' rapid jabs (falcon, shiek, kirby, etc.) and their rapid jabs seem to combo...so why not mac's? i've had people escape my rapid jab so often that if i dont go for gentle jab then i almost always get punished cuz they break free so easily.

another thing too is a lot of the things sakurai said in the nintendo direct for mac...are just not totally accurate.

1. "On the ground, his attack power is extreme"
i mean yes, mac's forward smash and up-smash are strong. but his tilts damage-wise i would not exactly call 'extreme'. his down tilt does 8 dmg, up tilt does 9 dmg, forward tilt does 12 dmg...ya that's pretty extreme alright...there are pleanty of other characters that match that or even surpass that...and not even the super hard hitters either, falco has tilts that match that damage wise, does that mean falco's attack power on the ground is extreme too? i mean according to sakurai i guess so

2. "Smash attacks hit at megaton levels!"
that is why mac's down smash kills Mario at the edge of final destination starting at around 100% right? don't get me wrong, forward smash is fine. and up smash is good too if you get the sweat spot and even if u dont its still not that bad. but down smash does only does 12%, not exactly what i would call "megaton level".

3. "Although it doesn't have a lot of jump power, the move makes up for with attack power."(rising uppercut)
the move does 10 damage, and that is only if connect all the hits. usually it does like 7 dmg or something when u connect it in the air and dont land all the hits. it kills Mario on final destination starting at 103% starting from the ground and that is with the cpu which doesnt DI very well. it mean its a nice move with decent kill power but i feel like it could do more damage so it would be worthwhile to use it as a combo finisher to rack up damage.

also Sakurai made it sound like the K.O. Uppercut kills instantly which it doesnt. but that's fine

 

[Splash Damage]

For the speed, utility, and combo potential of them, 8% on his down tilt and 9% on his up tilt are actually pretty crazy. He is tied for fastest down tilt in the game, and all the other characters who are tied with him cannot combo anything out of it and do measly damage. Mac can combo almost his entire arsenal out of his, including late up smash at 85% for a kill on half the cast and Up B at 100%+ on the entire cast. For a frame 3 unanimous combo tool, 8% is absurd.
Up tilt becomes an incredible tool when paired with perfect pivots, enabling combos into back air and up B(Up tilt to up B true combos on some characters and kills at around 105%) just off the top of my head. Also, it's one of the five moves he has to force techs on the battlefield platforms, and the only one he can do with the most freedom. Combine that with the ability to footstool after it to set up even more lock combos, the ability to string it together for 18%+, and ultimately it's easy to see that it's fine where it is.
He also has the fastest F-tilt in the game, and it is also the second strongest in terms of damage beaten out only by Ike and Roy, both with 12.5(And maybe Dedede?). In terms of BKB and KBG, on the second both are much higher than even Ganon's Ftilt(Ganon's is 30/88, Mac's is 40/130), making it crazy in terms of kill power and giving him a reliable kill option that comes out on frame 4, gains huge range with prefect pivots, and is very hard to punish when prefectly spaced.
Mac needs buffs, but not at all to his tilts. At most, make Ftilt link into the second hit more reliably, which is more an oversight fix than a buff.
As for down smash, it has the second most super armor of any of his smashes after forward&upward Fsmash, both with eight over D-smash's seven. Additionally, its intention is not for killing onstage opponents, but for covering roll/getup options, extending conversions when the start falling past ledge, hitting vulnerable on-ledge opponents, and killing opponents who are recovering low at high percent. If they're on the edge at 100%, you should be using Ftilt to kill, not D-smash.
As for Rising Uppercut, i agree that 10% is a bit low, but it shouldn't be out priority to make an amazing move a bit better in an area where it lacks.
TL;DR:Mac's biggest weakness which holds him back from high tier is his lack of ability to punish and deal with shields, so our priority for buffs should be to give him a much better grab and grab range, not buff his best moves.

 

[jet56]

@Splash, this is agreeable, i think the reason why people want a buff on his tilts is because they keep getting punished or shield grabbed. and that's understable, mac has some of the best tilts in the game and a fantastic ground game, and yet, none of his moves are safe on shield (i have been punished or shield grabbed out of everything now, and i am not counting perfect shielding).

i think there should be an improve on his grab range as well, and he would improve dramatically OR:

more push back when he hits someones shields so more of his moves are safe on shield OR:

they fix the WHOLE game and actually put some shield stun into the games mechanics.

p.s. i even wrote a whole topic on shield stun with little mac in the Q.A. thread

 

[Splash Damage]

His only frame-positive moves on shield are Jab1 and Down tilt, and those are only due to each other existing. We need some shieldstun.
Being realistic, adding shieldstun would probably make Mac rise at least a full tier if not more, as shields are his biggest problem. Toning that down in any way would bump him up like crazy.