Changes you would like to see for Little Mac

[Renegade TX2000]

Shiek is balanced, as she is the best character in the game but can still lose matches. She's the least dominating top tier in smash history. A character shouldn't be winning every single match no matter what, and as I said, Mac doesn't need nearly all those buffs.

I was trolling for the past 3-5 posts.

If I was serious about buffing little mac, I'd buff his last hit on jab to recover a little bit quicker and his Rapid jab to cause slightly more hit stun, and to buff his over all grab throws and have a quicker grab.

 

[ZomBiehn]

Ya he could use a better recovery or a longer jump side B but that would put him in the OP range, its the only thing that can balance his attack speed/power

 

[Splash Damage]

I was trolling for the past 3-5 posts

...
...
...Well you got me.

 

[Splash Damage]

Okay, here are my Final Thoughts on how to buff/change Lil Mac, in order of most to least importance:
Credit to SDoom for many of these
-Reverse the way the KO punch meter builds

I've already spoken more than enough on this topic, but as a summary: Making him fill the meter more from damage dealt and less from damage taken would promote you outplaying your opponent and would reward you for being smart and being a good player. This would make Mac a much better character with more potential, meaning that he has more ability to be a better character in the hands of a good player, rather than having a tool for people who are getting outplayed to get lucky victories. Would you rather be able to reliably 2-stock opponents as a reward for becoming so good with a character, or get lucky shots/victories for relying too heavily on one option?​

-Reliable ability to jab lock

After labbing with Little Mac for a long time, I can safely say he needs this likely the most. Currently you have to hyper-mindgame
your opponent and achieve TaS level perfection to get a footstool and follow up with the Dair, and only in very limited(And non-guaranteed)ways. Anything to change this would be an incredible buff, having a throw confirm into a tech situation and subsequently jab lock, another move with locking capabilites, have Nair true combo into footstool, ect. I'd say the best option is to give him another move with Locking capabilities, likely a simple Jab1. This would enable him to follow his opponent after an F-tilt or Side-B(Possibly, maybe just Ftilt), or really any of his moves at low-mid% and get humongous followups out of them. This would also give his custom UpB, Rising Smash, viability with its ability to kill at around 55-65%, which also happens to be the percentage where most of Macs moves force techs. Overall, if he had more ability to jab lock, all of the custom combos that have been cropping up with his Locks would all be much more possible and common, giving him tremendous viability.​

-Give down-pivoted F-smash more shield damage;Enable a full charge to break a full shield

This one's self explanatory, Mac has poor throws and pitiful grab range, making him lack a solid anti-shield option. Giving this move the ability to more heavily punish shields, especially when paired with his early kill moves.​

-Return aerial side-b to pre patch glory

Everyone in this thread has beaten this into the ground already. No reason for it to have gotten nerfed other than salty For Glories whining about losing to Little Mac on day 1. This could also give it some good OoS properties to combat spaced aerials that his other OoS options can't reach.​

-Increase Jab Hitstun(?)
Possible nerfs to balance:
-F-tilt&D-tilt startup&cooldown increase by 1-2 frames

We wouldn't miss those frames much, they'd likely still serve their purpose, but just a tad less quickly. As long as D-tilt can still combo into KO punch and RAR Nair it should be fine.​

-Slight decrease in roll speed

He doesn't really need all that roll speed too much, its a bit excessive. A few frames decrease won't be argued against I'm sure.​

-Possible extra small nerf. Can't think of anything else right now.

 

[Braydon]

Okay, here are my Final Thoughts on how to buff/change Lil Mac, in order of most to least importance:
Credit to SDoom for many of these
-Reverse the way the KO punch meter builds

I've already spoken more than enough on this topic, but as a summary: Making him fill the meter more from damage dealt and less from damage taken would promote you outplaying your opponent and would reward you for being smart and being a good player. This would make Mac a much better character with more potential, meaning that he has more ability to be a better character in the hands of a good player, rather than having a tool for people who are getting outplayed to get lucky victories. Would you rather be able to reliably 2-stock opponents as a reward for becoming so good with a character, or get lucky shots/victories for relying too heavily on one option?​

-Reliable ability to jab lock

After labbing with Little Mac for a long time, I can safely say he needs this likely the most. Currently you have to hyper-mindgame
your opponent and achieve TaS level perfection to get a footstool and follow up with the Dair, and only in very limited(And non-guaranteed)ways. Anything to change this would be an incredible buff, having a throw confirm into a tech situation and subsequently jab lock, another move with locking capabilites, have Nair true combo into footstool, ect. I'd say the best option is to give him another move with Locking capabilities, likely a simple Jab1. This would enable him to follow his opponent after an F-tilt or Side-B(Possibly, maybe just Ftilt), or really any of his moves at low-mid% and get humongous followups out of them. This would also give his custom UpB, Rising Smash, viability with its ability to kill at around 55-65%, which also happens to be the percentage where most of Macs moves force techs. Overall, if he had more ability to jab lock, all of the custom combos that have been cropping up with his Locks would all be much more possible and common, giving him tremendous viability.​

-Give down-pivoted F-smash more shield damage;Enable a full charge to break a full shield

This one's self explanatory, Mac has poor throws and pitiful grab range, making him lack a solid anti-shield option. Giving this move the ability to more heavily punish shields, especially when paired with his early kill moves.​

-Return aerial side-b to pre patch glory

Everyone in this thread has beaten this into the ground already. No reason for it to have gotten nerfed other than salty For Glories whining about losing to Little Mac on day 1. This could also give it some good OoS properties to combat spaced aerials that his other OoS options can't reach.​

-Increase Jab Hitstun(?)
Possible nerfs to balance:
-F-tilt&D-tilt startup&cooldown increase by 1-2 frames

We wouldn't miss those frames much, they'd likely still serve their purpose, but just a tad less quickly. As long as D-tilt can still combo into KO punch and RAR Nair it should be fine.​

-Slight decrease in roll speed

He doesn't really need all that roll speed too much, its a bit excessive. A few frames decrease won't be argued against I'm sure.​

-Possible extra small nerf. Can't think of anything else right now.

... Inverted KO meter would be an abomination... Also it would be a massive nerf because it would wind up with him having 20:80 MUs...

He has to have it like this for numerous reasons and the only reason you give for a change is because you somehow got the idea it doesn't take enough skill. It takes skill to land without being hit out, that's where the skill is supposed to come in, the meter works like this so he can only get one a life.

It would nerf him because in quite a few bad match ups for mac, his only real chance is to land the KO punch that he gets by taking damage, if it's inverted he would die before he gets it charged in a bad MU where he isn't hitting much, and he'd never have a chance to use it. His bad MUs would be even worse...

Also there are quite a few matchups this could end with him getting the KO punch right after a kill allowing a second incredibly fast. However it's more likely that if he was doing good he would get the KO punch when his enemy is around 70-80% when they only need a hit or two more to die anyway... Making it pointless.

Jab lock? why would you ever add a Jab lock, they're just situational abominations that ruin certain MUs... Besides his jab is good enough it already hits near as high %s as an Fsmash with moderate kill power.

And seriously why are people wanting just the Fsmash to be good on shields? If anything it should be the Dsmash since it lacks uses. But if you want him to stand a fair chance breaking shields he should just get a +25% shield damage across the board, maybe a few attacks would have a bit less or more, there is no reason to try and turn his fsmash into shield breaker.

 

[inconspikuous]

And seriously why are people wanting just the Fsmash to be good on shields? If anything it should be the Dsmash since it lacks uses. But if you want him to stand a fair chance breaking shields he should just get a +25% shield damage across the board, maybe a few attacks would have a bit less or more, there is no reason to try and turn his fsmash into shield breaker.

it's because the down-tilted fsmash is supposed to be a shield breaker anyway. it's programmed to have higher shield damage, but as it stands, it doesn't feel like enough to really make that big of a difference. if it had even a little bit more shield damage, it would break shields more consistently. a fully charged down-tilted fsmash should reliably break a shield, and it wouldn't be OP, because you shouldn't be getting hit by a fully charged down-tilted fsmash. marth/lucina's shield breaker breaks shields more consistently even if it's not fully charged.

 

[Splash Damage]

Pre-disclaimer:Not trying to start an argument or offend or anything, just need to get my point across.

... Inverted KO meter would be an abomination... Also it would be a massive nerf because it would wind up with him having 20:80 MUs...

He has to have it like this for numerous reasons and the only reason you give for a change is because you somehow got the idea it doesn't take enough skill. It takes skill to land without being hit out, that's where the skill is supposed to come in, the meter works like this so he can only get one a life.

I "Somehow got it in my head that it takes no skill" because I have experience with it. I know these things from extensive labbing and testing. I faced an opponent who is several times better than me, and won a few matches just because I got a lucky shot. It's as hard to land as you're making it out to be one of his fastest moves, Dtilt, true combos into it.
"That's where the skill should come in, the difficulty in landing it...Its made that way to only get one a life"
You seem to forget that both of these things would still happen with an inversion of the numbers.

It would nerf him because in quite a few bad match ups for mac, his only real chance is to land the KO punch that he gets by taking damage, if it's inverted he would die before he gets it charged in a bad MU where he isn't hitting much, and he'd never have a chance to use it. His bad MUs would be even worse...

As I've said before, if you think Mac can only overcome certain matchups with KO Punch then you're relying too heavily on it. You're acting like he doesn't have the best jab in the game, a frame 1 invincible Up B that kills early, excellent tilts, one of the strongest counters in the game, ect ect. KO Punch is hardly "His only way to overcome certain MUs."

Also there are quite a few matchups this could end with him getting the KO punch right after a kill allowing a second incredibly fast. However it's more likely that if he was doing good he would get the KO punch when his enemy is around 70-80% when they only need a hit or two more to die anyway... Making it pointless.

I may not have gotten my point across. He would:
-Take out his opponent's first stock convincingly, taking their stock at 75-85% and him only being at 30%
-This would likely fill the meter, if not then a few more hits would do it
-He would get another near instant kill on their next stock
The better player would have been rewarded for outplaying their opponent. I never said it would be used to finish a stock.

Jab lock? why would you ever add a Jab lock, they're just situational abominations that ruin certain MUs... Besides his jab is good enough it already hits near as high %s as an Fsmash with moderate kill power.

You are providing absolutely no reasons for these "Abominations" to not be present, and just claiming "It would give him 20:80 MUs"
A Jab Lock would make Little Mac less viable? I feel like we're on different planets.
A Jab Lock would be a balatant upgrade to any character and there is absolutely no proof or reason to believe that a jab lock would make him less viable. Im honestly shocked and confused as to how you somehow think otherwise. How often do you play Mac at a serious level, do you at all? A reliable combo into Jab Lock would give him true combos into Charged U-Smash, Rising Smash, KO Punch, F-smash, D-tilt, the list goes on. What would make you think that it would ruin his match ups?

Might I ask what matchups you're referring to becoming 20:80s? Because that statement seems to be an outside claim made with little exoerience, testing, labbing, ect.
For example, Pit is an extremely bad MU for Mac due to his ability to zone and edgeguard Mac safely, and I almost 0-Deathed a Pit in one instance and didnt get rewarded with the KO punch. I would have gotten rewarded with an instant kill move that combos out of his fastest tilt, however, if I played like garbage and got beat from 0-100%.
The KO punch, as it stands now, rewards you for playing bad, nothing else about it. Mac has a lower potential ceiling and skill ceiling as the KO punch only rewards bad players who are getting beat, not smart ones who are playing well.
In fact, I have proof of the KO punch being a rubber band and lucky-shot mechanic, and I could upload the video if you still don't believe me. I was playing Mac Dittos against a player who outclassed me several times over, and I still managed to win a few matches due to getting a lucky hit with the KO punch.
Going from being rewarded for playing bad to being rewarded for playing good is unanimously a buff, in any situation.

And seriously why are people wanting just the Fsmash to be good on shields? If anything it should be the Dsmash since it lacks uses. But if you want him to stand a fair chance breaking shields he should just get a +25% shield damage across the board, maybe a few attacks would have a bit less or more, there is no reason to try and turn his fsmash into shield breaker.

This statement seems to come froma lack of experience.
D-smash has no uses?
No reason to make Fsmash a shield breaker?
25% more shield damage across the board?
Inconspikuous said my point before even I could. His posts sum up my thoughts about the Fsmash.

 

[inconspikuous]

i wouldn't change the KO punch meter building because i'm not pro, but IMO although it does 'reward bad play' (see e.g. lucario), it's a necessary evil. i agree it goes against the 'original game's design' and that as it stands, it could lead to 'lucky' comebacks -- but that's what it is: a comeback mechanic. mac is a deeply flawed character for smash. 0-death against mac can be as easy as a single bthrow, in some cases. other characters can afford to make mistakes because they can return to the stage. mac can't. so the devs built-in a comeback mechanic that is slightly flawed.

plus, although you can get that lucky comeback with a dtilt>KO, it's percentage/weight dependent, meaning if the opponent is over, say, 50% you won't have that option available. then it becomes a hard read situation again and i'd argue that takes just as much skill as, e.g. landing a sheik fair string that takes mac to the blast zone.

 

[Splash Damage]

i wouldn't change the KO punch meter building because i'm not pro, but IMO although it does 'reward bad play' (see e.g. lucario), it's a necessary evil. i agree it goes against the 'original game's design' and that as it stands, it could lead to 'lucky' comebacks -- but that's what it is: a comeback mechanic. mac is a deeply flawed character for smash. 0-death against mac can be as easy as a single bthrow, in some cases. other characters can afford to make mistakes because they can return to the stage. mac can't. so the devs built-in a comeback mechanic that is slightly flawed.
plus, although you can get that lucky comeback with a dtilt>KO, it's percentage/weight dependent, meaning if the opponent is over, say, 50% you won't have that option available. then it becomes a hard read situation again and i'd argue that takes just as much skill as, e.g. landing a sheik fair string that takes mac to the blast zone.

-A few things, the D-tilt KO punch is guaranteed on all characters at about 10-30 percent IIRC. There's a good list on one of the Mac threads that ill link in a bit. Basically, weight plays a very little effect in getting the KO punch to hit. Also, typically you won't have the KO punch at all whe the opponent is at around 50%. Even if he did have it at that percentage, though, it actually can still be good to go for the D-tilt, as they may end up airdodging or attempting to F-air. In this case, al you gotta do it hold shield until they land with lag and there's your KO punch.
-It is not a terrible evil, yes, but it still is an evil, and it's better to have no evil and a good, well implemented mechanic rather than any evil at all.
-Also, people really over-exaggerate how easy it is to gimp Mac. Any mac with good DI and Jump conservation can make it back reliably with good recovery mixups. That being said, it is a much more uphill battle to recover than every other character, but it is a winnable battle nontheless. I've had *shivers* many situations where I was able to make it back in bad situations when i remembered Combo DI and jump conservation. You'd be surprised what Mac can come back from.
-Finally, Comeback mechanics shouldn't exist in fighting games no matter what, as they make the worse player have the chance to win easily and the better player having to play harder to get the same outcome. The KO punch should benefit the smart players, not the new ones.

 

[inconspikuous]

-A few things, the D-tilt KO punch is guaranteed on all characters at about 10-30 percent IIRC. There's a good list on one of the Mac threads that ill link in a bit. Basically, weight plays a very little effect in getting the KO punch to hit. Also, typically you won't have the KO punch at all whe the opponent is at around 50%. Even if he did have it at that percentage, though, it actually can still be good to go for the D-tilt, as they may end up airdodging or attempting to F-air. In this case, al you gotta do it hold shield until they land with lag and there's your KO punch.
-It is not a terrible evil, yes, but it still is an evil, and it's better to have no evil and a good, well implemented mechanic rather than any evil at all.
-Also, people really over-exaggerate how easy it is to gimp Mac. Any mac with good DI and Jump conservation can make it back reliably with good recovery mixups. That being said, it is a much more uphill battle to recover than every other character, but it is a winnable battle nontheless. I've had *shivers* many situations where I was able to make it back in bad situations when i remembered Combo DI and jump conservation. You'd be surprised what Mac can come back from.
-Finally, Comeback mechanics shouldn't exist in fighting games no matter what, as they make the worse player have the chance to win easily and the better player having to play harder to get the same outcome. The KO punch should benefit the smart players, not the new ones.

i disagree that fighting games should not have comeback mechanics -- e.g. daigo's EVO parry; hit confirms>super is a comeback mechanic. this one may not be as 'elegant', but i think they do exist in other fighting games and i think it has it's place in this one.

sure for many characters, it's not that easy to gimp mac. you can recover from most situations. but tourney sheik, ness, mario. i can't find a single, legit tourney video of a mac beating a sheik convincingly without the KO punch. (if you know of one, i'd love to see it! been searching for months.) it's just that easy to gimp him with those characters, and since sheik is at/near the top of the meta right now, it's unlikely that mac will see much shine. why is that? i'm pretty sure it's because mac has a lackluster air game, and gets gimped hard by those characters. tl;dr: gimping is not an exaggeration in some MUs.

EDIT: and yeah i've seen the thread where it lists the KO percentages. i understand it's a bnb combo _if_ you have the correct circumstances. but sometimes you don't. it's not guaranteed that you'll land a dtilt before the opponent knocks you out of meter. it's not guaranteed that you'll have the KO punch at the proper percentage where dtilt is a true combo to KO punch. it's not guaranteed that you won't be punished for fishing for a dtilt. (sidenote: in reality, i've heard that jab>KO punch is better from some great players on the ladder, even though it's not a true combo.) but dtilt>KO is not an unbeatable strategy, and i don't think it's OP. if you get caught by it, that's on you. and as 'easy' as it is to land dtilt>KO, it's just as 'easy' to get gimped by, for example, even mac's fair. in a perfect metagame, with mac's linear recovery, you can only rely on so many mixups before you get caught. i would argue that the KO punch is just another way to 'get caught'. why should g&w have 9's, and jiggly have rest, and shulk have hyper counter+power vision, and brawler have dthrow>helicopter kick and palutena have dthrow>nair/uair as 'comeback mechanics' and mac can't have his dtilt>KO? plus, whiffing KO (which is not that hard, as the KO punch hitbox comes out on frame 9) is one of the laggiest things you can do in the game like whiffing jiggly's rest.

 

[CHOVI]

-A few things, the D-tilt KO punch is guaranteed on all characters at about 10-30 percent IIRC. There's a good list on one of the Mac threads that ill link in a bit. Basically, weight plays a very little effect in getting the KO punch to hit. Also, typically you won't have the KO punch at all whe the opponent is at around 50%. Even if he did have it at that percentage, though, it actually can still be good to go for the D-tilt, as they may end up airdodging or attempting to F-air. In this case, al you gotta do it hold shield until they land with lag and there's your KO punch.
-It is not a terrible evil, yes, but it still is an evil, and it's better to have no evil and a good, well implemented mechanic rather than any evil at all.
-Also, people really over-exaggerate how easy it is to gimp Mac. Any mac with good DI and Jump conservation can make it back reliably with good recovery mixups. That being said, it is a much more uphill battle to recover than every other character, but it is a winnable battle nontheless. I've had *shivers* many situations where I was able to make it back in bad situations when i remembered Combo DI and jump conservation. You'd be surprised what Mac can come back from.
-Finally, Comeback mechanics shouldn't exist in fighting games no matter what, as they make the worse player have the chance to win easily and the better player having to play harder to get the same outcome. The KO punch should benefit the smart players, not the new ones.

Comeback mechanics make the game more interesting though. If someone's good then they should know to watch for KO punch and it shouldn't be much of a problem TBH

 

[Splash Damage]

Comeback mechanics make the game more interesting though. If someone's good then they should know to watch for KO punch and it shouldn't be much of a problem TBH

It's not a huge problem and yes it makes it interesting, but it simply shouldn't exist the way it does. the better player should always win, and if the KO punch meter invokes anything different then its programmed poorly.

~~~~~

i disagree that fighting games should not have comeback mechanics -- e.g. daigo's EVO parry; hit confirms>super is a comeback mechanic. this one may not be as 'elegant', but i think they do exist in other fighting games and i think it has it's place in this one.

I have little knowledge about other fighting games, but from what you described, that is not a comeback mechanic. That is a hit confirm into a kill setup, like Mac's Jab1>UpB. Something that can be used to come back is not necesssarily a comeback mechanic.

sure for many characters, it's not that easy to gimp mac. you can recover from most situations. but tourney sheik, ness, mario. i can't find a single, legit tourney video of a mac beating a sheik convincingly without the KO punch. (if you know of one, i'd love to see it! been searching for months.) it's just that easy to gimp him with those characters, and since sheik is at/near the top of the meta right now, it's unlikely that mac will see much shine. why is that? i'm pretty sure it's because mac has a lackluster air game, and gets gimped hard by those characters. tl;dr: gimping is not an exaggeration in some MUs.

I face a fairly good Ness as Mac very often, and have been able to determine that Mac actually does not have a very hard time fighting him to the degree that I once thought. Ness cannot safely cary him offstage beyond 2 Fairs, as he needs to use his double jump to get one more, and using a third not only brings him beyond his recovery zone, it also is not possible to hit if Mac has proper combo DI. If Mac DIs away those two hits and saves his jump, then he has a very, very easy time making it back as Ness uses his slow and poor recovery to make it back. As for Mario, Mac actually has an easy time getting back if he recovers low and avoids Mario's B-air. As long as he outplays the Cape then he makes it back. As for Shiek, that's simply a hard counter to Mac due to the nature of the MU. Sheik can actually safely spam F-airs in his face until he's offstage and safely recover, making that MU a different story altogether. Though honestly, only Shiek and Luigi to my knowledge can safely do these things to Mac, and thats only if Mac doesn't know that his UpB can escape all of these if they're not perfectly timed.

why should g&w have 9's, and jiggly have rest, and shulk have hyper counter+power vision, and brawler have dthrow>helicopter kick and palutena have dthrow>nair/uair as 'comeback mechanics' and mac can't have his dtilt>KO? plus, whiffing KO (which is not that hard, as the KO punch hitbox comes out on frame 9) is one of the laggiest things you can do in the game like whiffing jiggly's rest.

These things you've mentioned as well as Daigo's super confirms are not comeback mechanics. G&W's 9 hammer is luck-based(Which is another thing altogether), Power Vision+Hyper Smash is simply an incredibly early kill move that has to be respected, Jigg's rest is simply a very strong and risky move, and Brawler's D-throw UpB and Palu's D-throw Nair Up Air are both simply Kill Combos, not comeback mechanics. Actually, Palu can't kill with that combo on any normal ceiling stage.
Basically, none of these moves/combos are comeback mechanics designed to give worse players a helping hand, they are all kill setups(Barring the 9, which is in a completely different category). All the things youve mentioned are way for characters to kill when paired with some execution, and csan be used to come back if the player is skilled. KO punch is built to give people who are getting beaten a way to escape their loss. There's nothing in Smash that backward, and it shouldn't be this way.

EDIT: and yeah i've seen the thread where it lists the KO percentages. i understand it's a bnb combo _if_ you have the correct circumstances. but sometimes you don't.

But you almost always do. If you pull even the simplest roll/spotdodge read at 0%, two D-tilts>KO Punch and boom. It shouldn't both reward poor play and be that easy. D-tilt is very easy to land and is safe on shield when paired with his F1 Jab.

 

[inconspikuous]

It's not a huge problem and yes it makes it interesting, but it simply shouldn't exist the way it does. the better player should always win, and if the KO punch meter invokes anything different then its programmed poorly.

~~~~~


I have little knowledge about other fighting games, but from what you described, that is not a comeback mechanic. That is a hit confirm into a kill setup, like Mac's Jab1>UpB. Something that can be used to come back is not necesssarily a comeback mechanic.

I face a fairly good Ness as Mac very often, and have been able to determine that Mac actually does not have a very hard time fighting him to the degree that I once thought. Ness cannot safely cary him offstage beyond 2 Fairs, as he needs to use his double jump to get one more, and using a third not only brings him beyond his recovery zone, it also is not possible to hit if Mac has proper combo DI. If Mac DIs away those two hits and saves his jump, then he has a very, very easy time making it back as Ness uses his slow and poor recovery to make it back. As for Mario, Mac actually has an easy time getting back if he recovers low and avoids Mario's B-air. As long as he outplays the Cape then he makes it back. As for Shiek, that's simply a hard counter to Mac due to the nature of the MU. Sheik can actually safely spam F-airs in his face until he's offstage and safely recover, making that MU a different story altogether. Though honestly, only Shiek and Luigi to my knowledge can safely do these things to Mac, and thats only if Mac doesn't know that his UpB can escape all of these if they're not perfectly timed.
These things you've mentioned as well as Daigo's super confirms are not comeback mechanics. G&W's 9 hammer is luck-based(Which is another thing altogether), Power Vision+Hyper Smash is simply an incredibly early kill move that has to be respected, Jigg's rest is simply a very strong and risky move, and Brawler's D-throw UpB and Palu's D-throw Nair Up Air are both simply Kill Combos, not comeback mechanics. Actually, Palu can't kill with that combo on any normal ceiling stage.
Basically, none of these moves/combos are comeback mechanics designed to give worse players a helping hand, they are all kill setups(Barring the 9, which is in a completely different category). All the things youve mentioned are way for characters to kill when paired with some execution, and csan be used to come back if the player is skilled. KO punch is built to give people who are getting beaten a way to escape their loss. There's nothing in Smash that backward, and it shouldn't be this way.

But you almost always do. If you pull even the simplest roll/spotdodge read at 0%, two D-tilts>KO Punch and boom. It shouldn't both reward poor play and be that easy. D-tilt is very easy to land and is safe on shield when paired with his F1 Jab.

i get what you're saying. i do. but i think at this point it's sematics. forget i called the KO punch a comeback mechanic -- it's a 'kill combo' that is potentially available from the start of your opponent's new stock. in a 2-stock set-up it's not improbable that you could win when you've been bodied the entire match. i don't disagree that it's flawed. but if we're talking about comeback mechanics, you'd also have to argue that lucario as a character is flawed and that rage is flawed as well. and let's agree that dtilt is a kill setup. in the same way as your explanations of the other examples i gave, dtilt>KO has to be respected (which it almost always is, when you're playing against a good player). it's not an 'instant win' by any stretch. you still have to land it at the proper percentage, and if you land it, your opponent messed up. you can't honestly tell me you've landed 100% of your KO punches. i'd even be surprised if you could honestly say that you've landed around 50% of every full KO meter against competent tourney-level opponents. and to take it further, in a 3-stock match, you could just as easily be cheesed out of that 'KO-gained-stock-lead' by a single throw and correct read follow-up.

and i respectfully disagree with your gimping/MU analysis. yes, sheik and luigi can body mac offstage, but so can ness and mario. ness's pk1 tail is incredibly annoying. mario's cape and fludd are safe and abusable. if we're talking about the highest level of competition (i.e. perfect metagame), mac will get gimped by those characters in one way or another. your skill as a seasoned mac player can make up for his poor recovery (i hope you're not arguing his recovery is good), but his recovery is very predictable (arguably 50/50 with sideB or upB, or wall jumps, if they're available) and if the opponent reads correctly, you're not coming back. again, if you could show me some tourney-level vids that show how mac plays those MUs successfully, i'd love to watch them. conversely i think i would have an easier time linking you to vids of tourney macs getting gimped by these characters and more. look: i'm a mac main -- i don't think there's a character in this game that feels as satisfying to smash ppl with (and i think landing a KO punch read is probably the _best_ feeling you can get out of this game), but i'm not blind.

 

[Splash Damage]

i get what you're saying. i do. but i think at this point it's sematics. forget i called the KO punch a comeback mechanic -- it's a 'kill combo' that is potentially available from the start of your opponent's new stock. in a 2-stock set-up it's not improbable that you could win when you've been bodied the entire match. i don't disagree that it's flawed. but if we're talking about comeback mechanics, you'd also have to argue that lucario as a character is flawed and that rage is flawed as well. and let's agree that dtilt is a kill setup. in the same way as your explanations of the other examples i gave, dtilt>KO has to be respected (which it almost always is, when you're playing against a good player). it's not an 'instant win' by any stretch. you still have to land it at the proper percentage, and if you land it, your opponent messed up. you can't honestly tell me you've landed 100% of your KO punches. i'd even be surprised if you could honestly say that you've landed around 50% of every full KO meter against competent tourney-level opponents. and to take it further, in a 3-stock match, you could just as easily be cheesed out of that 'KO-gained-stock-lead' by a single throw and correct read follow-up.

I agree with all of these things, if I gave a different implication then I must've misspoke. KO punches are rare to land and I don't remember insinuating that I've landed them consistently, just that when I did it was sometimes lucky and against a better player. Additionally, I don't remember if I said that it was an 'instant win,' but what I meant if I misworded myself is that it's an instant stock, of course. As of now, the ones getting the instant stock are the ones who are getting outplayed, not the ones who are outplaying. I'm sure we can all agree that this is a noticeable occurrence, and I have a few potato quality videos to back up this claim.
Also, on the topic of Lucario and Rage, I agree with that too. Both of those things are poorly designed and should be removed/altered(Though Aura will likely be here to stay as Sakurai has stated that anything that makes a character unique is not going away. i cri.), as they encourage poor play at least to a certain
extent.
What I was saying is that the way the KO Punch meter builds is designed to make worse players have a fighting chance. This should not be the case, and I(as do many other Macs, including Silent Doom and I believe Thinkaman) believe that the KO Punch should instead be made to benefit the players who are able to beat their opponents well.

and i respectfully disagree with your gimping/MU analysis. yes, sheik and luigi can body mac offstage, but so can ness and mario. ness's pk1 tail is incredibly annoying. mario's cape and fludd are safe and abusable. if we're talking about the highest level of competition (i.e. perfect metagame), mac will get gimped by those characters in one way or another. your skill as a seasoned mac player can make up for his poor recovery (i hope you're not arguing his recovery is good), but his recovery is very predictable (arguably 50/50 with sideB or upB, or wall jumps, if they're available) and if the opponent reads correctly, you're not coming back. again, if you could show me some tourney-level vids that show how mac plays those MUs successfully, i'd love to watch them. conversely i think i would have an easier time linking you to vids of tourney macs getting gimped by these characters and more.

I've already said my pieces about Ness and Mario. Ness' gimp options on Mac are largely overestimated, even by myself at one point. Ness used to be one of my most hated characters due to this, but then I took Cranky's advice and got gud. In other words, I learned how to deal with his options(Counter the PK thunder and once he starts to read that, spam side-B into the tail of it until one of them passes it and grabs ledge, then enjoy your free getup as Ness handles the lag. Also, just have smart combo ethics against his Fair strings).
As for Mario, I won't deny that its a more uphill battle, but it is essentially a read-their-read. In a similar way to DI'ing Luigi's D-throw and combos, all you have to do is mix up your options. Recover low with the UpB to avoid his specials and do it fast enough to avoid the Bair, recover Mid if you've already recovered low a few times and he's predicting it, then recover low again once he begins going for capes and FLUDDs. If you're on FD(Which is actually not an insta-ban for Mac anymore against most high level players, T&C/Halberd are the ones), then you have your Wall Jump which can do even more to mix things up, including letting you do some pretty dynamic things in theory. I have done things like this against these characters in friendlies and against very skilled players many times, I've even impressed myself a few times. I'll begin going to a consistent and streamed weekly this Tuesday, and once I get some good examples I'll be sure to link them for my proof. If Shiek and Luigi are his only unbeatable obstacles, then I'd say he's fine.

Also, don't worry, I'd never try to insinuate that his recovery is -good-, haha.

 

[inconspikuous]

I agree with all of these things, if I gave a different implication then I must've misspoke. KO punches are rare to land and I don't remember insinuating that I've landed them consistently, just that when I did it was sometimes lucky and against a better player. Additionally, I don't remember if I said that it was an 'instant win,' but what I meant if I misworded myself is that it's an instant stock, of course. As of now, the ones getting the instant stock are the ones who are getting outplayed, not the ones who are outplaying. I'm sure we can all agree that this is a noticeable occurrence, and I have a few potato quality videos to back up this claim.
Also, on the topic of Lucario and Rage, I agree with that too. Both of those things are poorly designed and should be removed/altered(Though Aura will likely be here to stay as Sakurai has stated that anything that makes a character unique is not going away. i cri.), as they encourage poor play at least to a certain
extent.
What I was saying is that the way the KO Punch meter builds is designed to make worse players have a fighting chance. This should not be the case, and I(as do many other Macs, including Silent Doom and I believe Thinkaman) believe that the KO Punch should instead be made to benefit the players who are able to beat their opponents well.


I've already said my pieces about Ness and Mario. Ness' gimp options on Mac are largely overestimated, even by myself at one point. Ness used to be one of my most hated characters due to this, but then I took Cranky's advice and got gud. In other words, I learned how to deal with his options(Counter the PK thunder and once he starts to read that, spam side-B into the tail of it until one of them passes it and grabs ledge, then enjoy your free getup as Ness handles the lag. Also, just have smart combo ethics against his Fair strings).
As for Mario, I won't deny that its a more uphill battle, but it is essentially a read-their-read. In a similar way to DI'ing Luigi's D-throw and combos, all you have to do is mix up your options. Recover low with the UpB to avoid his specials and do it fast enough to avoid the Bair, recover Mid if you've already recovered low a few times and he's predicting it, then recover low again once he begins going for capes and FLUDDs. If you're on FD(Which is actually not an insta-ban for Mac anymore against most high level players, T&C/Halberd are the ones), then you have your Wall Jump which can do even more to mix things up, including letting you do some pretty dynamic things in theory. I have done things like this against these characters in friendlies and against very skilled players many times, I've even impressed myself a few times. I'll begin going to a consistent and streamed weekly this Tuesday, and once I get some good examples I'll be sure to link them for my proof. If Shiek and Luigi are his only unbeatable obstacles, then I'd say he's fine.

Also, don't worry, I'd never try to insinuate that his recovery is -good-, haha.

gotcha. i think we're closer to understanding each other now but yeah great discussion, man. cheers.

 

[CHOVI]

Seriously? Luigi and Shiek unbeatable? I doubt it

 

[Splash Damage]

gotcha. i think we're closer to understanding each other now but yeah great discussion, man. cheers.

Agreed. Cheers.

Seriously? Luigi and Shiek unbeatable? I doubt it

Not necessarily "unbeatable," more like "dont get grabbed or hit by a single forward air in any case at any time ever."

 

[deepseadiva]

This is the thread Nintendo shows its staff to explain why they don't listen to random players.

 

[Splash Damage]

This is the thread Nintendo shows its staff to explain why they don't listen to random players.

How do you mean?

 

[inconspikuous]

How do you mean?

i think @ deepseadiva 's talking about the overboard 'change everything so mac can win every fight' type comments. i don't think that comment was directed at our posts -- but if it was... that's okay too. lol.

 

[Splash Damage]

i think @ deepseadiva 's talking about the overboard 'change everything so mac can win every fight' type comments. i don't think that comment was directed at our posts -- but if it was... that's okay too. lol.

Seeing as he liked this post, probably what he meant lol. He's already a very good character(I place him at the top of B, so high mid tier), so we can't give him too many crazy buffs. Just a better jab lock and the meter are all I'd need.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Seeing as he liked this post, probably what he meant lol. He's already a very good character(I place him at the top of B, so high mid tier), so we can't give him too many crazy buffs. Just a better jab lock and the meter are all I'd need.

It's probably been said up there, but I view the meter like I view Lucario's Aura. It's less of a reward for sucking, and more of a reward for surviving.

 

[inconspikuous]

It's probably been said up there, but I view the meter like I view Lucario's Aura. It's less of a reward for sucking, and more of a reward for surviving.

i would agree with you, but i think it's a little more complicated than that from @ Splash Damage 's perspective. you're not 'surviving' at 80% (generally i have a fully charged meter by the time i've taken about 80% damage + either taking the opponent's stock or about to close it out). and in a 2-stock scenario like for glory, if you take that first stock, the opponent is one/two dtilts away from losing. that's not really rewarding surviving, that's just an easy way to get two stocks quickly.

if you lose the KO meter once though? then i would agree it's about surviving, because the next time you get it would be around 130%. or on your next stock at about 80%, when your opponent would likely not be in dtilt>KO punch danger range.

 

[Splash Damage]

i would agree with you, but i think it's a little more complicated than that from @ Splash Damage 's perspective. you're not 'surviving' at 80% (generally i have a fully charged meter by the time i've taken about 80% damage + either taking the opponent's stock or about to close it out). and in a 2-stock scenario like for glory, if you take that first stock, the opponent is one/two dtilts away from losing. that's not really rewarding surviving, that's just an easy way to get two stocks quickly.

if you lose the KO meter once though? then i would agree it's about surviving, because the next time you get it would be around 130%. or on your next stock at about 80%, when your opponent would likely not be in dtilt>KO punch danger range.

Seconding this, this sums up my thoughts pretty well. Also, with the Aura, it's pretty tough not to survive when having decent aura gives you one of the best recoveries in a game where everyone has good recoveries.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

i would agree with you, but i think it's a little more complicated than that from @ Splash Damage 's perspective. you're not 'surviving' at 80% (generally i have a fully charged meter by the time i've taken about 80% damage + either taking the opponent's stock or about to close it out). and in a 2-stock scenario like for glory, if you take that first stock, the opponent is one/two dtilts away from losing. that's not really rewarding surviving, that's just an easy way to get two stocks quickly.

if you lose the KO meter once though? then i would agree it's about surviving, because the next time you get it would be around 130%. or on your next stock at about 80%, when your opponent would likely not be in dtilt>KO punch danger range.

Seconding this, this sums up my thoughts pretty well. Also, with the Aura, it's pretty tough not to survive when having decent aura gives you one of the best recoveries in a game where everyone has good recoveries.

Yeah, i can see where my post may have appeared ignorant. I suppose my outlook on both of these mechanics may just be something I need to tell myself in my head so I don't get on the "IT'S BROKEN" bandwagon, but that's just me. Also, I've been consistently able to get two KO punches in the same stock...Idk what I'm doing different, maybe I'm just playing a lot of bad people...

 

[Splash Damage]

Also, I've been consistently able to get two KO punches in the same stock...Idk what I'm doing different, maybe I'm just playing a lot of bad people...

Either that or you're secretly godlike. CHASE YOUR DREAMS

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Either that or you're secretly godlike. CHASE YOUR DREAMS

I mean, I like to think my Luigi is AT LEAST Poyo (from Xanadu) level...My Mac is like a frustration secondary, like i said before...BUT HERE'S TO CHASING! *clinks drink, chugs*

 

[Funkermonster]

Changes that I'd love to have:

• Please change Jolt Haymaker back to the way it was in the original version of the game with more aerial movement from it, I have no idea why the hell they made this change in the first place. Little Mac's recovery is already like the worst in the game, what's the big idea to make it worse?
• An Up Aerial with a bigger hitbox and more damage & shield damage. This way, opponents can no longer abuse platform camping to lame out Mact and that he can have a good defense against it like everyone else, yeah UpB exists but its not safe on block and doesn't instantly break shields. Little Mac's biggest weakness, in my opinion, is that he sucks against platform camping and is too stage dependent compared to most of the other characters due to his weak aerials, if the opponent kills him first they can camp up there and lame him out with little he can do about it.The rest of his aerials? They can suck as much ass as they want, I just want Up Air. Having a stronger Up Air could also make his combo potential a little better from a throw, since it would actually do some damage.
• A larger fullhop from the ground, so that he is able to even reach the platforms on certain stages like Duck Hunt. His double jump could stay small to his recovery weak and not make him OP.
• Make his counter and custom variants to be unblockable like Shulk's counter. At the very least I would love the custom move Dash Counter to be unshieldable. Another weakness I see in Mac is that he can't really deal with projectile zoning too well and his only other options for taking it (SideB and NeutralB) are pretty unsafe, he can dash counter a projectile but if the user doesn't suffer enough endlag they can still shieldgrab his counter and throw him offstage. I would honestly love or all counters (besides maybe Greninja's) to be unblockable, I find it unfair how Shulk's can't shielded but most everyone else's can.
• An Improvement to Straight Lunge, or one of its custom variants. This move's only utilities are after a shield is broken or sometimes to escape from Rapid Jabs, otherwise Straight Lunge is easy to block and avoid and is near impossible to land against a good opponent. Other characters like Falcon and Ness have useless Special Moves like PK Flash and Falcon Pawnch, but Little Mac has like almost half of a moveset with his weak aerials and poor grab & set of throws and his NeutralB takes away yet ANOTHER part of his moveset and doesn't have as much to much work with like the other two characters I mentioned, thus I find it a little more important for him than them. Flaming Lunge and Stunning Lunge give the KO Punch 4 more Super Armor frames, but as actual attacks they are still pretty bad. I'm notsure exactly what buff I'd wanna give it though, just do something to make it least uesful for something. Maybe being able to store the charge and save it for later use... I dunno. Onstage Jolt Haymaker is pretty terrible too, but its custom variants are both better than it at least so its not as big a deal.
• Rework the KO Punch mechanics: Let it fill up more from damage you deal than damage you take. Not really a big fan of comeback mechanics in fighting games and I think it promotes poor play (like Lucario's stupid Aura mechanic, I hate it!) in a way. Like if you successfully land a counter on someone or if you smash attack through an enemy's attack with your super armor, the KO Meter can fill up by 3 bars and that would be more like the actual Punch Out!!! games.

If they were to add these buffs, I'd add Little Mac to my main train and I think they could make him a much better character without becoming broken. The Up Air and Fullhop being my biggest desires, I find that he would benefit from them the most.

 

[Splash Damage]

stuff

I agree with all of these, as they seem to address all of Mac's main issues that are somewhat unnecessary as nerfing factors.
As an aside, Guard Breaker(the side b with super armor) Is easily Mac's best option against projectile characters. Strong enough to withstand even smash attacks at >150%, 18% damage, unshieldable, recovery, all the stuff i've already said about it basically(or maybe that was a different thread, idunno). Basically, this tool makes Mac gain at least 15 points in all projectile matchups, if not twice that.

In any case, let's try something new and bring this thread back to its purpose: Everyone provide the 2 things you want buffed about Mac the absolute most, and 1 nerf to balance it out, as well as reasons for them. I'll compile a list and add more viewpoints to it every couple of posts to keep it updated.
Currently, here's what we have:
-Reverse the KO punch building mechanics as such:100% damage dealt fills the meter, 334% damage taken also fills the meter.
-Give him a reliable setup/combo into a jab lock, or gave another move locking capabilities to give him any sort of setup into a jab lock.
-Buff his Up-Air to be able to at least somewhat pressure/combat platform campers, perhaps just a damage/shield damage buff.
-Increase ground jump height to enable him to reach more platforms, while keeping his second jump and UpB the same heights(Duck Hunt stage buff)
-Increase D-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Increase F-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Decrease roll speed by 4-5 frames

 

[Zodiacx10]

i thought it would be cool if his moves did more shield damage (especially his down angled forward smash). i mean he makes people dizzy in his games all the time. you could even make his grab even more ass lol. im not sure how op it would be...but would be super fun to have a better counter to shields than just "avoid hitting their shield or else u will die"

it would be easier if shields didn't recharge fast as hell lol

 

[Splash Damage]

Alright, I'm back and much more informed.

After watching tons of Mac combo videos, labbing for countless hours, and overall testing in tournament and out, I have some much more informed points and views to share.
I no longer believe he needs another Jab Locking move.
After being exposed to and testing out the absurd plethora of combos, setups, guaranteed strings into etching and mixup-heavy situations that, even when not able to sett up a jab lock due to the opponent teching or jumping away can still be incredibly favorable, I belive he simply doesn't need nor would he be able to use another locking move
Just so you believe me, here's just a few setups:
@=approx. starting percentage
(Disclaimer:Very few of these are guaranteed. I am merely describing their uses as Jab Reset setups, though the rest is up to you. You have to ready their reaction to get the proper punishes by techases, jump snatching w/UpB, ect ect)

Spoiler

-Ftilt @5-10%
~This also is one of the most useful, as Dtilt>Ftilt is a true combo, and the angle is very uncommon to tech, allowing you to start the match with a very early heavy chunk of damage or even extension of the combo with Dtilt>Grab>Pummel>Bthrow>Reset>Anything
-SideB @~40%
~This can be paired with a ledge cancelled rapid jab to start a pretty unexpectable mixup that nearly guarantees a Reset.
-Fthrow @~40 (Fall speed dependent)
-Bthrow @ Slightly earlier than F-throw
~On fastfallers, D-tilt strings are true combos into itself at least twice at 0-15%, leading you to be able to perform this 0-death off of 1 missed tech:
Dtilt>Dtilt>Dtilt>Grab>Pummel to ~35%>F-throw/B-throw(depending on the number of Dtilts&Pummels)>Jab Reset>Down-pivoted Fsmash>Techchase U-smash
-U-tilt to footstool @ 15%
~Planning on labbing soon to determine whether or not this true combos, but if it does then Mac has a reliable setup into KO punch or whatever else he wants.
-D-tilt to straight footstool, no nair @TBD
-Down-pivoted Fsmash @ ~65%
~ This is likely the best overall option for his Jab Resets, as it works to the latest percentage and tack on the most damage. Its duality of being an excellent option to capitalize on a Reset with and also begin one can create some pretty absurd and hilarious combos and mixup situations.
-Ledge getup @0%-any
This is the most absurd and ridiculous option he has for a jab lock, especially cosidering how few characters ever go to the ledge willingly. This one is useful for the sheer ridiculousness and unexpected nature of it. Need to set up your KO punch? Just run off and grab ledge. No percent requirements, works at 0. Offensive getup>Dair>Dtilt>KO punch.

I'll be labbing more and updating this daily, likely gonna make a whole new thread for it, but you get the idea. Dair is much more than enough. I'd be on board to remove that from the bufflist in favor of something else to be perfectly honest.

 

[Zodiacx10]

I no longer believe he needs another Jab Locking move.

i still think it would be cool if down tilt jab locked and if his down throw put people into a missed tech situation (kinda like brawl G&W). so you could down throw and if they miss their tech you could down tilt them. or you could read which way they are going to tech and upsmash them

 

[Splash Damage]

i still think it would be cool if down tilt jab locked and if his down throw put people into a missed tech situation (kinda like brawl G&W). so you could down throw and if they miss their tech you could down tilt them. or you could read which way they are going to tech and upsmash them

I wouldn't object to an extra lock move(As an aside i'd prefer Jab1 as the one as Dtilt has properties that would be lost when giving the lock, and I'd prefer D-throw to keep its properties as without it he'd lose his only kill combo out of a throw), though I feel it wpould be too much of a buff for a character who can already to plenty of locks.

 

[inconspikuous]

Alright, I'm back and much more informed.

After watching tons of Mac combo videos, labbing for countless hours, and overall testing in tournament and out, I have some much more informed points and views to share.
I no longer believe he needs another Jab Locking move.
After being exposed to and testing out the absurd plethora of combos, setups, guaranteed strings into etching and mixup-heavy situations that, even when not able to sett up a jab lock due to the opponent teching or jumping away can still be incredibly favorable, I belive he simply doesn't need nor would he be able to use another locking move
Just so you believe me, here's just a few setups:
@=approx. starting percentage
(Disclaimer:Very few of these are guaranteed. I am merely describing their uses as Jab Reset setups, though the rest is up to you. You have to ready their reaction to get the proper punishes by techases, jump snatching w/UpB, ect ect)

Spoiler

-Ftilt @5-10%
~This also is one of the most useful, as Dtilt>Ftilt is a true combo, and the angle is very uncommon to tech, allowing you to start the match with a very early heavy chunk of damage or even extension of the combo with Dtilt>Grab>Pummel>Bthrow>Reset>Anything
-SideB @~40%
~This can be paired with a ledge cancelled rapid jab to start a pretty unexpectable mixup that nearly guarantees a Reset.
-Fthrow @~40 (Fall speed dependent)
-Bthrow @ Slightly earlier than F-throw
~On fastfallers, D-tilt strings are true combos into itself at least twice at 0-15%, leading you to be able to perform this 0-death off of 1 missed tech:
Dtilt>Dtilt>Dtilt>Grab>Pummel to ~35%>F-throw/B-throw(depending on the number of Dtilts&Pummels)>Jab Reset>Down-pivoted Fsmash>Techchase U-smash
-U-tilt to footstool @ 15%
~Planning on labbing soon to determine whether or not this true combos, but if it does then Mac has a reliable setup into KO punch or whatever else he wants.
-D-tilt to straight footstool, no nair @TBD
-Down-pivoted Fsmash @ ~65%
~ This is likely the best overall option for his Jab Resets, as it works to the latest percentage and tack on the most damage. Its duality of being an excellent option to capitalize on a Reset with and also begin one can create some pretty absurd and hilarious combos and mixup situations.
-Ledge getup @0%-any
This is the most absurd and ridiculous option he has for a jab lock, especially cosidering how few characters ever go to the ledge willingly. This one is useful for the sheer ridiculousness and unexpected nature of it. Need to set up your KO punch? Just run off and grab ledge. No percent requirements, works at 0. Offensive getup>Dair>Dtilt>KO punch.

I'll be labbing more and updating this daily, likely gonna make a whole new thread for it, but you get the idea. Dair is much more than enough. I'd be on board to remove that from the bufflist in favor of something else to be perfectly honest.

these sound great, but i'm terrible at landing any/all of them. sometimes i even struggle with landing the jab reset on charizard after sideB. i'm a scrub.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Mac I believe is a polarised character, however one who's strengths don't quite offset his weaknesses enough. His awful aerial game hurts both his on and offstage presence significantly and having a poor grab means that his ground mixups aren't as strong as they could be. The changes I personally list are to help improve his overall effectiveness and round out his design a little better.

+ Jab1 hitbox height adjusted to be able to hit grounded foes and knockback and angle adjusted to allow for jab resets:
~ Fairly self explanatory. Having a practical way of resetting the opponent after knockdown would be a useful tool to have for Mac. Currently his only way to jab reset is via shot hop DAir which is incredibly awkward. Mac's jab can also whiff on smaller characters so this would allow it to actually hit them.
+ Jab2 IASA pushed back a little:
~ This would allow for more genuine follow-ups after jab2 particularly on characters with fast sex kick aerials who would normally break out.
+ FTilt first hit adjusted to more reliably link with the second:
~ More of a polish thing than a genuine buff. Often characters get hit a little too high from the first hit causing the second to whiff.
+ Halved landing lag on all aerials:
~ This one's a pretty big one. His aerials would still be laughably weak and would still have awful coverage but reduced landing lag on them would at least give them overall a little more utility. I give the example of Samus in previous games who despite having some of the lowest landing lag values in the game was a ground based character (though this was more due to her physics than the strength of her aerials, which are all much better than Mac's might I add).
+ All grabs come out 3 frames faster (6/7/8 from 9/10/11) and grab hitbox size increased very slightly:
~ This is the other big one. I find it hilarious that a character whose supposed to have the best ground game of the bunch has one of the worst grabs in the game, severely reducing his ground mix-up potential. His grab range should still be pretty mediocre but at the very least he could use a normal speed grab as opposed to the slow one he has now.
+ Straight Lunge B-reversible and allow the attack to come out earlier:
~ This move has so little utility it's painful. Being able to b-reverse it would at least allow you to be a bit more mobile with it. It was clear though this move was designed primarily for FFAs.
+ Restore Jolt Haymaker horizontal distance to pre 1.0.4 distance:
~ This nerf to be quite frank was simply unnecessary and I feel it should be reverted. Nerfing the worst recovery in the game and not touching any other recoveries seems so back asswards to me.
+ Rising Uppercut damage increased from 3-1-1-1-4 to 4-2-2-2-8 (knockback compensated):
~ Let's take a step back to last April's direct when Sakurai said "what this move lacks in jump power, it makes up for in attack power". Except, oh wait, it only does 10% total. Meanwhile ZSS, a much more mobile character in the air, has an Up B that kills earlier and does more damage. I think the percent at which this move kills is just right, however it does way too little damage for awful it is for recovering. This ups its total damage to 18%
+ Slip Counter unblockable:
~ I honestly feel every counter in the game should be unblockable. It kind of defeats the purpose of them if you can counter a counter just by holding shield. This counter at least comes out fast enough such that you wouldn't be able to block it most of the time, but I still feel it should be unblockable nonetheless.

- Make FTilt and DTilt come out one frame later:
~ With the buffs stated I feel these two moves should be toned down just a tad. They're incredibly good moves. UTilt is also great but is the slowest of the three tilts and only really hits above and behind him which is why I'd leave it the same. The moves would still be excellent.
- Slightly reduce wall jump height:
~ I honestly find it a little counterintuitive to his design. He has the highest wall jump in the game for some reason. It's significantly higher than his regular jumps. On walled stages a walljump alongside Up B can help you recover from the bottom blast zone.
- Reduce horizontal distance travelled by Slip Counter:
~ I guess this is both a buff and a nerf. On one hand it won't hit as often vs projectiles and can't be used to help you recover. On the other hand one will get fewer accidental SDs from the counter reversing them unexpectedly and hurling them offstage.

~ Adjust jabs such that mashing goes into rapid jab and holding goes into Jab3:
~ This is an inconsistency that really bothers me. Every other character that can do both jab3 and rapid jab (Pit, Falcon, Robin, Greninja) have it so that holding A causes the 3rd hit while mashing allows for rapid jabs. Mac instead makes it so that both mashing and holding lead to rapid jabs while jab3 can only be done with a slightly late timed press of A.
~ The way KO Punch should only charge by dealing damage as opposed to receiving:
~ This is one of those annoying "getting rewarded for getting hit" mechanics. While not as severe as Lucario's aura it's still pretty dumb. Furthermore it goes against the actual canon. In Super Punch Out you filled the Power Metre by landing hits and you would lose it if you took hits. I don't think losing it before it builds is necessary in this game however.

Dude are you serious? You want to buff Mac's revovery options, (spiking side smash, what?!) buff frame startup on grabs, make his grab box BIGGER, add only ONE frame to downsmash, unavoidable counter, make him have good air play, AND lower the lag time from using said aerials by HALF?

The idea of Mac getting any frame BUFFS is ridiculous in my book, as he has some of the fastest ground frames in the game and almost no lag time on the ground. Almost every character has some sort of lag time from using aerials. Asking to be reduced by HALF is absurd, especially the cooldown in air can finish before hitting the ground from his first jump (if you don't short hop), giving him a lag-free landing. Please don't make Mac harder to punish for non Mac players.

 

[Virum]

Dude are you serious? You want to buff Mac's revovery options, (spiking side smash, what?!) buff frame startup on grabs, make his grab box BIGGER, add only ONE frame to downsmash, unavoidable counter, make him have good air play, AND lower the lag time from using said aerials by HALF?

The idea of Mac getting any frame BUFFS is ridiculous in my book, as he has some of the fastest ground frames in the game and almost no lag time on the ground. Almost every character has some sort of lag time from using aerials. Asking to be reduced by HALF is absurd, especially the cooldown in air can finish before hitting the ground from his first jump (if you don't short hop), giving him a lag-free landing. Please don't make Mac harder to punish for non Mac players.

You can't be serious? I don't know why you as a Mario player are complaining when Mario walks all over Mac. Mac's main safe poke in a lot of match-ups is D-Tilt and he gets punished harder than any character in the game if he ****s up in neutral. If you as a Mario player are having a hard time punishing Mac you're likely getting severely outplayed.

Nothing in this list is absurd if you actually took the time to analyse and dissect the character's strengths and weaknesses and how they weigh up in match-ups. What these changes would do would round out his onstage game while preserving his main weakness (the recovery buff is simply a return to form, it was still garbage prior but not as abysmal as it is now). Reducing the landing lag of his aerials doesn't improve them in neutral that much because their hitboxes are awful and they can't really be used to challenge much. They serve to improve his on-stage mix-ups. Even with lower landing lag they still wouldn't be hard to punish. This doesn't suddenly make his air game better, as when forced into the air he's still just as vulnerable again because of the fact that their hitboxes are ass. The grab buff is to make his grab not ****ing awful. This character loses to shielding and power shielding because his grab is one of the worst in the game and on a character that relies on ground mix-ups that seems like counter-intuitive design. Mind you, having both a larger grab box and a faster grab may be a tad extreme. I'd take the latter personally.

Also, I didn't even mention Down Smash. I mentioned DTilt and FTilt, two of his most important neutral tools, coming out 1 frame later. In retrospect DTilt coming out 1 frame later is quite a noteworthy nerf because it's probably one of if not his most important tool.

 

[FrankTheStud]

You can't be serious? I don't know why you as a Mario player are complaining when Mario walks all over Mac. Mac's main safe poke in a lot of match-ups is D-Tilt and he gets punished harder than any character in the game if he ****s up in neutral. If you as a Mario player are having a hard time punishing Mac you're likely getting severely outplayed.

Nothing in this list is absurd if you actually took the time to analyse and dissect the character's strengths and weaknesses and how they weigh up in match-ups. What these changes would do would round out his onstage game while preserving his main weakness (the recovery buff is simply a return to form, it was still garbage prior but not as abysmal as it is now). Reducing the landing lag of his aerials doesn't improve them in neutral that much because their hitboxes are awful and they can't really be used to challenge much. They serve to improve his on-stage mix-ups. Even with lower landing lag they still wouldn't be hard to punish. This doesn't suddenly make his air game better, as when forced into the air he's still just as vulnerable again because of the fact that their hitboxes are ***. The grab buff is to make his grab not ****ing awful. This character loses to shielding and power shielding because his grab is one of the worst in the game and on a character that relies on ground mix-ups that seems like counter-intuitive design. Mind you, having both a larger grab box and a faster grab may be a tad extreme. I'd take the latter personally.

Also, I didn't even mention Down Smash. I mentioned DTilt and FTilt, two of his most important neutral tools, coming out 1 frame later. In retrospect DTilt coming out 1 frame later is quite a noteworthy nerf because it's probably one of if not his most important tool.

LOL wat. Mario walking on Mac, since when? Yeah man, all those lag frames and slow momentum sure make him easy to punish! That dtilt spam into KO punch combo is also terrible, right? Mario has a terrible time trying to approach Mac, as his uptilt and dtilt are incredibly spammable and powerful, alongside Super Armored moves with low lag time and high knockback (shields included!) that keep your spacing naturally quite good against other melee fighters.
Mac is already a difficult character to punish on the ground. Once again, don't make it harder for other characters to get in on Mac when they finally got him in the air... the little frames we can actually punish on Mac are very vital, as that's really the only opportunity we have that doesn't involve calculating 1/7 to 1/5 of a second. Stuck in the air? Just air dodge to the floor, it works wonders for Mac and gives him control of the stage again.
His grabs should be awful with how powerful he is...Why not try to pivot grab like C Falc and Sonic? You're not much slower physically than them and it'll probably put you in a better position on the map than most should you wiff, or if you throw them off the edge and charge/plan out a down/forward/uptilt/smash.

I'm legitimately not trying to start a war or anything, just giving input from someone who's faced a lot of Macs and still flips a coin on his win percetage every time he goes against one, and that's with about an 80% winrate of 1100/1300 games on For Glory. Buffing Mac that much just seems insane to me, especially with the rather petty nerfs presented to "compensate."

 

[Renegade TX2000]

just give me a more consistent ftilt, better grabs/quicker grabs and i'm happy

 

[CHOVI]

LOL wat. Mario walking on Mac, since when? Yeah man, all those lag frames and slow momentum sure make him easy to punish! That dtilt spam into KO punch combo is also terrible, right? Mario has a terrible time trying to approach Mac, as his uptilt and dtilt are incredibly spammable and powerful, alongside Super Armored moves with low lag time and high knockback (shields included!) that keep your spacing naturally quite good against other melee fighters.
Mac is already a difficult character to punish on the ground. Once again, don't make it harder for other characters to get in on Mac when they finally got him in the air... the little frames we can actually punish on Mac are very vital, as that's really the only opportunity we have that doesn't involve calculating 1/7 to 1/5 of a second. Stuck in the air? Just air dodge to the floor, it works wonders for Mac and gives him control of the stage again.
His grabs should be awful with how powerful he is...Why not try to pivot grab like C Falc and Sonic? You're not much slower physically than them and it'll probably put you in a better position on the map than most should you wiff, or if you throw them off the edge and charge/plan out a down/forward/uptilt/smash.

I'm legitimately not trying to start a war or anything, just giving input from someone who's faced a lot of Macs and still flips a coin on his win percetage every time he goes against one, and that's with about an 80% winrate of 1100/1300 games on For Glory. Buffing Mac that much just seems insane to me, especially with the rather petty nerfs presented to "compensate."

?? But Mac is kind of weak against grabs and air combos which Mario has. Also gimps. Not talking about buffs or anything, but you shouldn't be having a hard time against Little Mac...

 

[Virum]

LOL wat. Mario walking on Mac, since when? Yeah man, all those lag frames and slow momentum sure make him easy to punish! That dtilt spam into KO punch combo is also terrible, right? Mario has a terrible time trying to approach Mac, as his uptilt and dtilt are incredibly spammable and powerful, alongside Super Armored moves with low lag time and high knockback (shields included!) that keep your spacing naturally quite good against other melee fighters.

Mario is a character with some of the best overall frame data in the game coupled with great mobility overall. Mac misspaces an option, Mario opts for an OoS punish with an aerial, or even worse a grab, and converts into massive damage and stage control off of one punish and due to Mac's limited aerial options (which again still remain just as limited) Mario can extend his punishes relatively easily. Conversely a good number of Mac's usual frame traps and setups don't work vs Mario because all Mario has to do is NAir as he comes down. And don't even get me started on how free it is to gimp Mac as Mario. The buffs I stated wouldn't even change that.

Mac is already a difficult character to punish on the ground. Once again, don't make it harder for other characters to get in on Mac when they finally got him in the air... the little frames we can actually punish on Mac are very vital, as that's really the only opportunity we have that doesn't involve calculating 1/7 to 1/5 of a second. Stuck in the air? Just air dodge to the floor, it works wonders for Mac and gives him control of the stage again.

Air dodge to the ground? Are you actually for real? Air dodging into the ground is almost ALWAYS a bad option. That's just asking for a free grab punish due to the lag you suffer from it. And Mario gets a ton off of his grabs. I don't see how you could possibly think air dodging to the ground would give Mac stage control again. That makes no sense.

His grabs should be awful with how powerful he is...Why not try to pivot grab like C Falc and Sonic? You're not much slower physically than them and it'll probably put you in a better position on the map than most should you wiff, or if you throw them off the edge and charge/plan out a down/forward/uptilt/smash.

Because Mac's pivot grab is slower and has less range than both of those characters and isn't really much less punishable than a regular or dash grab. Falcon's not even really reliant on his pivot grab anyway. He's much more focused on his incredible dash grab. Pivot grab is mainly used for extending certain punishes.