Changes you would like to see for Little Mac

[Zodiacx10]

i see there is a lot of character discussions with a "buff/changes you would want for _____ character" thread

so im interested to see what you guys wanted for Mac baby. any buffs, combination of buffs and nerfs, any moves changed to other moves, that sort of thing.

i wrote a long thing about what i wanted for Little Mac in the Spoiler

Spoiler

here is what i wanted

buffs
+make his side special have less landing/ending lag
+make side special distance and speed the air the way it was before the 1.0.4 patch
+make the K.O. Punch build the meter build a little quicker when dealing damage
+make his moves never go stale or at least make the staleness effect a little less
+reduce charge time on neutral special OR make it so you can store it at full charge
+make his jab combo like captain falcon's in that holding the A button does his 1-2-3 jab combo while mashing A does his rapid jab
+make his rapid jab actually combo people so its not super easy to get out of
+fully charged down angled forward smash breaks full shields unless perfect shielded
+improve grab speed and range significantly
+up special and side special snap to the ledge
+make gentleman do the damage it used to before patch 1.0.4

nerfs
-remove heavy armor on neutral special
-make the K.O. Punch not build the meter as fast when taking damage

so the reasons for these things i wanted...

buffs
•his side special is a very high risk, low reward kind of deal. you risk flying off the stage and dying or missing and getting hard punished due to its almost full second end lag, but if u land it you do like 14% and medium knockback. i mean i get it, you're meant to use it to leap over projectiles but even if i leap over the projectile and hit them i end up landing in front of them and get hard punished due to its landing lag. if it had less landing lag you could follow up from that and also make it a little bit easier to recover high

•the K.O. Punch being built up faster for taking damage seems kinda silly to me. its like rewarding you for playing badly. and although you could argue that it rewards you for living a long time with Mac...i don't really see it that way. as far as i remember the star punch was given to mac for doing a good job and getting hits in without getting hit in punch out

•the moves not going stale or going stale not as fast is because...well think about it, his specials are very situational, his aerials are next to worthless...so that means he only has like 8 moves that are used a lot...and they go stale really fast and its annoying

•his jab combo is really easy to get out of. some characters can just di down and shield, others can use certain moves to get out of it. the rapid jab should true combo which it doesn't most of the time

nerfs
•the reason i was thinking of removing the heavy armor on neutral special is because if you buffed his neutral special then he would not need that anymore.

other random stuff i was thinking would be really nice to have but not all at once
+up b does 16 damage
+all tilts have less end lag
+down smash does more damage and knockback and comes out faster
+all aerials auto cancel and have way less end lag
+side special spikes when used in the air
+side special does not put mac in free fall
+dash attack send people at a horizontal angle to follow-up and has less knock back scaling
+down tilt does 10 dmg, up-tilt does 12 dmg, f-tilt does 14 dmg
+smashes have armor for the whole start up and not just half of it
+slightly better air mobility
+throws have less end lag

so please write what you think of my ideas or write your own. i would love to hear them :D

EDIT:
im going to write down a short list of things im seeing most on this thread
1. improve options against shields (better grab/safer attacks on shields)
2. improve horizontal recovery
3. re-work straight lunge

Here are the things he should get at the very least
1. grab range and grab frame data is improved
2. better follow-ups out of throws
3. moves that are meant to combo together actually do more consistently (rapid jab/f-tilt)
4. K.O. Punch no longer wind wiffs

 

[Creede]

If he had good recovery, I'd play him a lot. Better aerials would be nice though.

 

[PHYTO-1]

1) i find it hard to believe that the nair elevator combo is inescapable. nair has absolutely no hitstun and if DK were to input anything i'm sure it would nullify the footstool. heck , try it with a lvl 9 cpu -- he'll just nair out of it.

2) mac's custom "grounding blow" is a side-b that spikes.

3) "+when used in the air it sends you flying forward (only on full charge), but is a lot much weaker" - this is already true

4) the idea of building up meter by taking in damage was supposed to synergize with mac's super armor and counter. you wanna deal HUGE damage your opponent? then play smart and sacrifice some damage % in return.

the only thing i agree on is altering his neutral b. uncharged (like youre mashing B and want it to end quickly) should have less endlag. it has such huge startup and endlag for a move that doesn't even deal much damage (though it has more knockback than dsmash) . you could probably do a fully charged fsmash in the time it takes to do an uncharged straight lunge.

both his recoveries should auto snap. i dont mind the lame distance they travel, but being easy dsmash targets is really the worst especially for how slow the moves are

 

[Zodiacx10]

1) i find it hard to believe that the nair elevator combo is inescapable. nair has absolutely no hitstun and if DK were to input anything i'm sure it would nullify the footstool. heck , try it with a lvl 9 cpu -- he'll just nair out of it.

2) mac's custom "grounding blow" is a side-b that spikes.

3) "+when used in the air it sends you flying forward (only on full charge), but is a lot much weaker" - this is already true

4) the idea of building up meter by taking in damage was supposed to synergize with mac's super armor and counter. you wanna deal HUGE damage your opponent? then play smart and sacrifice some damage % in return.

the only thing i agree on is altering his neutral b. uncharged (like youre mashing B and want it to end quickly) should have less endlag. it has such huge startup and endlag for a move that doesn't even deal much damage (though it has more knockback than dsmash) . you could probably do a fully charged fsmash in the time it takes to do an uncharged straight lunge.

both his recoveries should auto snap. i dont mind the lame distance they travel, but being easy dsmash targets is really the worst especially for how slow the moves are

how are you going to charge his current neutral all the way in the air and land on the ground with it? unless u have the flaming punch custom move?

 

[Champ Gold]

Have his Up-B have better reach, Side-B spikes, Down Smash has more knock back. Slow his speed down and have his back air do small knockback

 

[ForteX]

If Mac were any easier to get back onto the stage with, he would be broken. I think the only thing he needs is a move like the Mii Fighter's headbutt thing, or Back Slash, to get him back out of the air quickly and protect his landing, but since it wouldn't make any sense to add that to his side B or neutral B, I feel like that's a little out of the question. Making his counter drop him like a stone though would be pretty interesting, although it would ruin the plot most people have to counter their way back onto the stage.

 

[Zodiacx10]

If Mac were any easier to get back onto the stage with, he would be broken. I think the only thing he needs is a move like the Mii Fighter's headbutt thing, or Back Slash, to get him back out of the air quickly and protect his landing, but since it wouldn't make any sense to add that to his side B or neutral B, I feel like that's a little out of the question. Making his counter drop him like a stone though would be pretty interesting, although it would ruin the plot most people have to counter their way back onto the stage.

i thought my charged neutral b was a good idea for a recovery option. it has great killing power, but u need to give that up to get back to the stage and it takes a long time to charge.

 

[Virum]

Mac I believe is a polarised character, however one who's strengths don't quite offset his weaknesses enough. His awful aerial game hurts both his on and offstage presence significantly and having a poor grab means that his ground mixups aren't as strong as they could be. The changes I personally list are to help improve his overall effectiveness and round out his design a little better.

+ Jab1 hitbox height adjusted to be able to hit grounded foes and knockback and angle adjusted to allow for jab resets:
~ Fairly self explanatory. Having a practical way of resetting the opponent after knockdown would be a useful tool to have for Mac. Currently his only way to jab reset is via shot hop DAir which is incredibly awkward. Mac's jab can also whiff on smaller characters so this would allow it to actually hit them.
+ Jab2 IASA pushed back a little:
~ This would allow for more genuine follow-ups after jab2 particularly on characters with fast sex kick aerials who would normally break out.
+ FTilt first hit adjusted to more reliably link with the second:
~ More of a polish thing than a genuine buff. Often characters get hit a little too high from the first hit causing the second to whiff.
+ Halved landing lag on all aerials:
~ This one's a pretty big one. His aerials would still be laughably weak and would still have awful coverage but reduced landing lag on them would at least give them overall a little more utility. I give the example of Samus in previous games who despite having some of the lowest landing lag values in the game was a ground based character (though this was more due to her physics than the strength of her aerials, which are all much better than Mac's might I add).
+ All grabs come out 3 frames faster (6/7/8 from 9/10/11) and grab hitbox size increased very slightly:
~ This is the other big one. I find it hilarious that a character whose supposed to have the best ground game of the bunch has one of the worst grabs in the game, severely reducing his ground mix-up potential. His grab range should still be pretty mediocre but at the very least he could use a normal speed grab as opposed to the slow one he has now.
+ Straight Lunge B-reversible and allow the attack to come out earlier:
~ This move has so little utility it's painful. Being able to b-reverse it would at least allow you to be a bit more mobile with it. It was clear though this move was designed primarily for FFAs.
+ Restore Jolt Haymaker horizontal distance to pre 1.0.4 distance:
~ This nerf to be quite frank was simply unnecessary and I feel it should be reverted. Nerfing the worst recovery in the game and not touching any other recoveries seems so back asswards to me.
+ Rising Uppercut damage increased from 3-1-1-1-4 to 4-2-2-2-8 (knockback compensated):
~ Let's take a step back to last April's direct when Sakurai said "what this move lacks in jump power, it makes up for in attack power". Except, oh wait, it only does 10% total. Meanwhile ZSS, a much more mobile character in the air, has an Up B that kills earlier and does more damage. I think the percent at which this move kills is just right, however it does way too little damage for awful it is for recovering. This ups its total damage to 18%
+ Slip Counter unblockable:
~ I honestly feel every counter in the game should be unblockable. It kind of defeats the purpose of them if you can counter a counter just by holding shield. This counter at least comes out fast enough such that you wouldn't be able to block it most of the time, but I still feel it should be unblockable nonetheless.

- Make FTilt and DTilt come out one frame later:
~ With the buffs stated I feel these two moves should be toned down just a tad. They're incredibly good moves. UTilt is also great but is the slowest of the three tilts and only really hits above and behind him which is why I'd leave it the same. The moves would still be excellent.
- Slightly reduce wall jump height:
~ I honestly find it a little counterintuitive to his design. He has the highest wall jump in the game for some reason. It's significantly higher than his regular jumps. On walled stages a walljump alongside Up B can help you recover from the bottom blast zone.
- Reduce horizontal distance travelled by Slip Counter:
~ I guess this is both a buff and a nerf. On one hand it won't hit as often vs projectiles and can't be used to help you recover. On the other hand one will get fewer accidental SDs from the counter reversing them unexpectedly and hurling them offstage.

~ Adjust jabs such that mashing goes into rapid jab and holding goes into Jab3:
~ This is an inconsistency that really bothers me. Every other character that can do both jab3 and rapid jab (Pit, Falcon, Robin, Greninja) have it so that holding A causes the 3rd hit while mashing allows for rapid jabs. Mac instead makes it so that both mashing and holding lead to rapid jabs while jab3 can only be done with a slightly late timed press of A.
~ The way KO Punch should only charge by dealing damage as opposed to receiving:
~ This is one of those annoying "getting rewarded for getting hit" mechanics. While not as severe as Lucario's aura it's still pretty dumb. Furthermore it goes against the actual canon. In Super Punch Out you filled the Power Metre by landing hits and you would lose it if you took hits. I don't think losing it before it builds is necessary in this game however.

 

[Virtual Raelity]

the straigh lunge is already reversable. at least in the air.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Mac I believe is a polarised character, however one who's strengths don't quite offset his weaknesses enough. His awful aerial game hurts both his on and offstage presence significantly and having a poor grab means that his ground mixups aren't as strong as they could be. The changes I personally list are to help improve his overall effectiveness and round out his design a little better.

+ Jab1 hitbox height adjusted to be able to hit grounded foes and knockback and angle adjusted to allow for jab resets:
~ Fairly self explanatory. Having a practical way of resetting the opponent after knockdown would be a useful tool to have for Mac. Currently his only way to jab reset is via shot hop DAir which is incredibly awkward. Mac's jab can also whiff on smaller characters so this would allow it to actually hit them.
+ Jab2 IASA pushed back a little:
~ This would allow for more genuine follow-ups after jab2 particularly on characters with fast sex kick aerials who would normally break out.
+ FTilt first hit adjusted to more reliably link with the second:
~ More of a polish thing than a genuine buff. Often characters get hit a little too high from the first hit causing the second to whiff.
+ Halved landing lag on all aerials:
~ This one's a pretty big one. His aerials would still be laughably weak and would still have awful coverage but reduced landing lag on them would at least give them overall a little more utility. I give the example of Samus in previous games who despite having some of the lowest landing lag values in the game was a ground based character (though this was more due to her physics than the strength of her aerials, which are all much better than Mac's might I add).
+ All grabs come out 3 frames faster (6/7/8 from 9/10/11) and grab hitbox size increased very slightly:
~ This is the other big one. I find it hilarious that a character whose supposed to have the best ground game of the bunch has one of the worst grabs in the game, severely reducing his ground mix-up potential. His grab range should still be pretty mediocre but at the very least he could use a normal speed grab as opposed to the slow one he has now.
+ Straight Lunge B-reversible and allow the attack to come out earlier:
~ This move has so little utility it's painful. Being able to b-reverse it would at least allow you to be a bit more mobile with it. It was clear though this move was designed primarily for FFAs.
+ Restore Jolt Haymaker horizontal distance to pre 1.0.4 distance:
~ This nerf to be quite frank was simply unnecessary and I feel it should be reverted. Nerfing the worst recovery in the game and not touching any other recoveries seems so back asswards to me.
+ Rising Uppercut damage increased from 3-1-1-1-4 to 4-2-2-2-8 (knockback compensated):
~ Let's take a step back to last April's direct when Sakurai said "what this move lacks in jump power, it makes up for in attack power". Except, oh wait, it only does 10% total. Meanwhile ZSS, a much more mobile character in the air, has an Up B that kills earlier and does more damage. I think the percent at which this move kills is just right, however it does way too little damage for awful it is for recovering. This ups its total damage to 18%
+ Slip Counter unblockable:
~ I honestly feel every counter in the game should be unblockable. It kind of defeats the purpose of them if you can counter a counter just by holding shield. This counter at least comes out fast enough such that you wouldn't be able to block it most of the time, but I still feel it should be unblockable nonetheless.

- Make FTilt and DTilt come out one frame later:
~ With the buffs stated I feel these two moves should be toned down just a tad. They're incredibly good moves. UTilt is also great but is the slowest of the three tilts and only really hits above and behind him which is why I'd leave it the same. The moves would still be excellent.
- Slightly reduce wall jump height:
~ I honestly find it a little counterintuitive to his design. He has the highest wall jump in the game for some reason. It's significantly higher than his regular jumps. On walled stages a walljump alongside Up B can help you recover from the bottom blast zone.
- Reduce horizontal distance travelled by Slip Counter:
~ I guess this is both a buff and a nerf. On one hand it won't hit as often vs projectiles and can't be used to help you recover. On the other hand one will get fewer accidental SDs from the counter reversing them unexpectedly and hurling them offstage.

~ Adjust jabs such that mashing goes into rapid jab and holding goes into Jab3:
~ This is an inconsistency that really bothers me. Every other character that can do both jab3 and rapid jab (Pit, Falcon, Robin, Greninja) have it so that holding A causes the 3rd hit while mashing allows for rapid jabs. Mac instead makes it so that both mashing and holding lead to rapid jabs while jab3 can only be done with a slightly late timed press of A.
~ The way KO Punch should only charge by dealing damage as opposed to receiving:
~ This is one of those annoying "getting rewarded for getting hit" mechanics. While not as severe as Lucario's aura it's still pretty dumb. Furthermore it goes against the actual canon. In Super Punch Out you filled the Power Metre by landing hits and you would lose it if you took hits. I don't think losing it before it builds is necessary in this game however.

i agree with all of these except for just a couple things

his rising uppercut may not do a lot of damage but if you're higher enough you can kill with it super early. doing it from the ground kills most at around 120% i think. doing it higher in the air can kill at like 80 or something

his tilts...hmm...i would not mind if his ftilt came out later if it had less ending lag. his down tilt i would keep the same

also using his dair to jab lock i dont think is incredibly awkward. i can usually run up, quickly hold down and slide my finger across jump then the "A" button and its does a shot hop dair out of a dash. although, having more methods of jab locking would be cool.

btw...what did you think of my neutral special idea?

 

[Virum]

the straigh lunge is already reversable. at least in the air.

Really? I can consistently b-reverse every b-reversible special in the game but I've never been able to reverse this one. Is the timing different or something?

btw...what did you think of my neutral special idea?

Seems interesting though I feel a 5 second charge time is excessive considering the charge time for Straight Lunge is already more than most specials. Even with the ability to store the charge 5 seconds is far too long. Admittedly I also don't think he needs another recovery option as it kinda clashes with his overall design.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm really against changing Mac's design philosophy. Poor aerials and recovery define the character. That being said. His specials deserve a lot of attention. It's definitely unfortunate that Straight Lunge is the one default special that doesn't launch Mac forward from the air. So I would normalize that, even though the straight lunge wouldn't often be used for this application due to it large charge time. Another aspect of Straight Lunge that needs to be normalized is its version of KO punch. Only with in depth frame data did we find that the custom neutral Bs have a different KO punch that has 7 super armor frames instead of 3. Both changes to straight lunge would make Mac better in a non customs environment. And in customs matches, Flaming Lunge is not the obvious choice any more. Players would choose between the niche recovery application (Flaming) and the kill move (straight).

I also want them to go back on their change with jolt haymaker on the Wii U release. There's no reason at all for this side B to be the worst choice for recovery, when its trajectory and punch provide the least safety while recovering. Even Guard breaker clears slightly more distance + height from the air, and that one has super armor. The nerf to Jolt Haymaker makes no sense from a design standpoint.

Mac's up Bs are beautifully designed, and I wouldn't change a thing about him. Even though Rising Uppercut is our go to choice, You can still make good cases for Tornado and Rising Smash. Uppercut is the great OoS/combo breaker attack, Tornado is slightly better for recovery, and Smash is a scary strong kill move with a ton of risk involved. I love them all. Mac's counters are all really good and worth using as well. Slip kills, Compact allows for followups, and Dash can take you further at the cost of a slightly smaller counter window.

For other buffs, I agree with some other users that Mac should have more height on his jumps. At least the standard jump. Not being able to clear the tree platforms on Duck hunt without going into special fall is a dumb, unnecessary hindrance. And I shouldn't have to expend a double jump to chase people on platforms like the one on Smashville. Platform camping is a lame way to deal with Mac, but we're expected to just deal with it at tournament settings. I'd rather change the game than change the players.

As for nerfs, I dunno. Maybe make dash attack take longer to act out of. It's one of the better dash attacks in the game, and with Mac's frame 1 jab, it's kind of ridiculous how difficult it is to punish many of Mac's moves. This is one that I'd like to see being punishable by characters as slow as Bowser or Ganondorf. Speaking of, I wouldn't be upset about them making jab hit on frame 2 or 3. It would still be a great jab in that case. But changing the first active frames of ground moves would steadily make Mac not superior to most of the cast while on the ground. And then you'd really have a laughably bad character.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Seems interesting though I feel a 5 second charge time is excessive considering the charge time for Straight Lunge is already more than most specials. Even with the ability to store the charge 5 seconds is far too long. Admittedly I also don't think he needs another recovery option as it kinda clashes with his overall design.

i made the charge time so long because it is VERY powerful at full charge. a fully charge straight lunge up close kills mario at 60% in the middle of fd. maybe reduce it to 4 seconds. and it flings you forward in the air but u have to have full charge and you give up that kill power for a better recovery.

 

[Deleted member]

All mac needs is the ability to go horizontal with his recovery. Think of Wario's Widescrew. Only of recent have i realized that i have the potential to really PWN with Mac, and if his greatest weakness could be fixed that would be nice.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I want to see an adjustment in the KO meter mechanics.
He should not be rewarded for sponging hits like Robert De Niro. He should be rewarded for being like Muhammad Ali - bobbing, weaving, and dodging attacks, and maximizing his punishes.
The meter should fill more from damage he deals rather than damage he takes.
Maybe... reverse the two and their efffects on the meter, and maybe reduce the rate for dealing damage a little so that Mac must deal about 150-200% damage to fill the meter completely?

 

[viewtifulduck82]

The meter is absolutely perfect as is. Its designed with the idea that you want to super armor punish as much as possible to fill your meter twice as fast.

 

[Virum]

The meter is absolutely perfect as is. Its designed with the idea that you want to super armor punish as much as possible to fill your meter twice as fast.

If it was actually able to detect when you receive a hit during armour this would make sense but that's not the case. Instead, like a less severe version of Lucario's aura, it rewards players for losing. Currently its design rewards playing poorly so it has the potential to be used as a clutch when it should be rewarded for playing well.

 

[PHYTO-1]

how are you going to charge his current neutral all the way in the air and land on the ground with it? unless u have the flaming punch custom move?

while its not as feasible as flame lunge its still possible, just pointing it out.


one change for me would be a better dash grab. look at sonic and captain falcon, they have godly dash grabs. yet, mr #3 fastest doesnt. also give him better throws. he works out, im sure he could throw some further

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

one change for me would be a better dash grab. look at sonic and captain falcon, they have godly dash grabs. yet, mr #3 fastest doesnt. also give him better throws. he works out, im sure he could throw some further

I feel like the rationale for Mac's bad grabs and throws is that boxing gloves are not designed to allow you to unclench your fists. So you couldn't grip anything without the awkward use of both gloves.

As for his throws, it is true that Dthrow is really the only one that's above average. it deals a whopping 11% damage and will combo really well into aerials or the grounding blow custom. Fthrow and B throw are really just a means of throwing somebody from the edge of a stage back to the center where Mac fights on better terms. Uthrow I can't find a use for. No combos, not as much damage, can't kill even with a lot of rage. One useless throw is okay in my book.

If it was actually able to detect when you receive a hit during armour this would make sense but that's not the case.

It is the case. KO meter buildup is dependent on damage received.

 

[Splash Damage]

Silent Doom already came up with what I feel to be the perfectly ideal buffs and nerfs to Little Mac to make him a better character(barring the KO punch meter), but as a Mac main I'll post what I expect(And hope) he'll get in the patch.
-Buff aerial side-b to pre-1.04 glory. There was absolutely no reason to make it even worse, and it was jsut changed because everyone was making day 1 complaints about being unable to beat him. Now that we know he was just fine with it, it should be restored.
-possibly make him a bit heavier so it's not quite as easy to gimp him at 20%. At least give him more survival power.
-If this is done, make his KO punch go from killing at 20 to 30, an inbetween of the 2 previous iterations of the KO punch. Can't make him too good now.
-A change to the KO meter build mechanics would be perfect, as has been mentioned above. IMO, it should be like this:
Swap the build percentages of Damage given and received. Currently, you have to take 100% damage or deal 337% damage to fill the meter, which I personally am not a fan of. Any and all damage Mac takes is a possible lead in to a gimp, so this can either make him a Lucario-esque beat-me-up-and-I-become-good mechanic, or an I-will-never-be-good-because-i-keep-dying mechanic. Personally, I feel it should be that you have to receive or deal a total of ~175% damage to fill the meter, taken or received. That way, Mac can still use the punch in the way he did before, filling the meter close to the end of the first stock just to have it for the next one to end their last stock quickly, or use it as a way to combat projectile campers. Shofu's tournament "Get Connected" showcased a perfect example of this, where Acid, as Luigi, projectle camped a Little Mac player up to 100%, then got D-tilt-KO Punched and lost his first stock, left to fight a Rage Little Mac. With the change I mentioned, the Little Mac would still be able to do this, but it would take more doing for the Little Mac. This will make him likely a much better character in all matchups barring Campy ones, as once the Mac and his opponent are up to ~80%, Mac will be able to easily close out the stock and win with the KO punch, but it will take more skill to build it up and not just sponging hits. He will also be able to still combat projectile campers, and if he is getting beaten by an offensive player, the meter won't fill as he'll likely die much before 175, let alone not getting gimped at 20.
-Increased Dashgrab range. This gives him the grounded mixup potential he so desperately needs. His throws can stay the same, even the standing grab, but giving him a better dashgrab is crucial.
-down-angled F-smash does
more shield damage, giving the fully charged variant the ability to instantly break shields
-All the rest are things Silent already covered in his post. Increased Up-B damage, 1-frame slower F/Dtilts(We won;t be missing that frame anyway im sure), slip counter unblockable, ect.
-All the nerfs are also as Silent said, with the exception of the KO punch meter mechanics.
I don't think his speed should be changed. His ability to run in and Jump Cancel Up Smash, dsh attack, run past and side-B, foxtrot/dancetrot, dashgrab, everything centralizes around his currently impressive speed. In my experience with the character, it's also useful to see how your opponent reacts to pressure. Often times, early in a set if my opponent is in a bad position or is at high percent, I simply run towards them. No attacking or anything, just run towards them with the false threat of an attack. This enables me to see their fear reaction-what defensive option they opt for when they're panicking. Mac's speed and utilizing Dance-trots enables me to do this much more efficiently than with most other characters, and with a giant, blinking instant KO move, knowing how they're going to react to danger and be able to properly chase them down is essential. His speed is a pivotal part of this. For example, I was playing a Pit who, after any failed offensive option that put him in a bad position, rolled backward. Almost every single time he was in danger post-attack he did this rather than attacking, shielding, spotdodging, or rolling forward. Picking up on this, when I had the KO punch, I shielding one of his F-smashes and ran forward, proceeding to use the KO punch and take his last stock. Pit's rolls are rather fast and I was barely able to follow it effectively as it is, so if Mac's speed was lower, he would lose his ability to powerfully punish a common, safe option with his strongest attack. He may be able to chase it with a Side-B, but doing that with a KO punch packed would just stall out the 6 seconds of safety it has before it can be knocked out. So, I feel his speed is necessary.
Will likely add more info later.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I personally would not mind if they toned down Mac's running speed as a potential nerf. Especially if that gave him a smaller foxtrot/initial dash distance. You can tell when performing pivot ftilts that the characters seems not well designed for being able to slide that far from a pivot. And it's not like he has an excellent dash grab to exemplify this feature with his running speed. Why does a boxer have such amazing running speed in the first place, when he should be good at holding his ground and weaving past attacks? I think he should have his great walking speed, and a slower run.

As for Mac's weight, I find his lightweight to be a godsend. If he were heavier, then he would be taken much farther offstage from typical Fair strings from the likes of Shiek and Ness, as well as any juggle combo from Mario or ZSS. Being able to survive an additional 10% or so from kill moves is not a good tradeoff for even higher risk of gimps from his already difficult matchups.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

If it was actually able to detect when you receive a hit during armour this would make sense but that's not the case. Instead, like a less severe version of Lucario's aura, it rewards players for losing. Currently its design rewards playing poorly so it has the potential to be used as a clutch when it should be rewarded for playing well.

You're not playing poorly if you're taking advantage of both ways to increase your meter.
But let's put that aside. What's so bad about you building meter from taking hits? With as easily gimped Mac is, surviving long enough to get a KO punch is nearly impossible if you're just getting smacked around. Especially at higher levels of play. You aren't being rewarded for playing badly, you're being rewarded for not getting gimped at like 50% lol

 

[Splash Damage]

Why does a boxer have such amazing running speed in the first place, when he should be good at holding his ground and weaving past attacks?

He does because you can't weave past attacks while staying still in Smash. The only way to do this is spotdodging, and that gets read easily and punished with a charged smash attack, an easy gimp setup against mac. As for the bobbing and weaving part, his fast speed helps with that hugely, as your opponent likely wont be able to catch up with a full-speed Little Mac, especially if he's dance trotting. I've tested it out myself, repeatedly reversing your direction with dance trotting gives you a huge amount of mixups and read opportunities.
All Macs play differently, and some wouldn't mind the speed nerf as they don't need it often, however there's no real reason to nerf it in place of some of the other aforementioned things that have been brought up in the thread, as it doesn't make him too good or make his playstyle center around the use of his speed, like Sonic.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

however there's no real reason to nerf it in place of some of the other aforementioned things that have been brought up in the thread, as it doesn't make him too good or make his playstyle center around the use of his speed, like Sonic.

This is actually precisely the reason I brought it up. Mac doesn't need it, and it's difficult to take advantage of it even when you know what you're doing. However, we're asking for a lot of buffs in this thread, and not enough nerfs to compensate. So, you have to think of things Mac doesn't necessarily need, if you want to have exceptionally big changes like decent grabs, decent aerials, or a recovery that's not the worst in the game by a long shot. All three of those things are vital parts of Mac's design. Better charge mechanics for KO punch would be welcome, however. Reversing the ratio for taking/dealing damage or finding a middle ground as many of you have suggested sound like good design choices without making Mac into a different character entirely.

 

[SpaceJell0]

I would personally love if Mac's Up B could snap to ledge easily and have the old Side B

 

[Splash Damage]

This is actually precisely the reason I brought it up. Mac doesn't need it, and it's difficult to take advantage of it even when you know what you're doing. However, we're asking for a lot of buffs in this thread, and not enough nerfs to compensate. So, you have to think of things Mac doesn't necessarily need, if you want to have exceptionally big changes like decent grabs, decent aerials, or a recovery that's not the worst in the game by a long shot. All three of those things are vital parts of Mac's design.

I find it incredibly easy to utilize and even necessary for my playstyle often, as I have mentipned with covering rolls. One thing I didn't mention is JCUS range, which is very impressive on Mac and easy to utilize when paired with his speed, and with an up smash as strong as his, a read option like that can't be passed up, it'd hurt his offensive options massively. That being said, we are asking for a lot, so I wonder what else we could change.
Currently, in my opinion with my experience, Little Mac is at the top of mid tier, with his laughable recovery options and no ability to use his options with free movement holding him back. If we give him most of the buffs we mentioned as well as the nerfs Silent mentioned, he'd easily be top 10, possibly top 5. That being said, we could still give him one or two more nerfs that don't affect his character very much, but still get the balancing job done. Like I mentioned earlier, possibly making the KO punch kill ~7.5% later, making his dash attack come out later/take longer to end, increasing airdodge landing lag to the standard, two or three things like that could do it.

Reversing the ratio for taking/dealing damage or finding a middle ground as many of you have suggested sound like good design choices without making Mac into a different character entirely.

Ideally, I feel it should be an evening out of them rather than a reversal, because having him only need to do 100% damage would be very easy with a lot of momentum and Mac's powerful attacks, and having him need to do 150% damage wouldn't happen before they reached ~70% on their last stock, and at that point you may as well just Up Smash after a few more blows anyway.
Overall though, 'fixing' his KO punch meter building would be an ideal and welcome change.

 

[PHYTO-1]

imo, the KO meter is not a "reward for doing badly" kinda thing. if you think taking damage is bad-play, then your opponent is just as bad for getting hit with the KO punch and for just attacking you all willy nilly without taking the meter into consideration. if they care about the matchup they should pay attention to the bar and start thinking about getting mac offstage when the bar is about to go full. i'm not saying it couldn't use a change ( i dont mind ), but i just feel its not a "reward for doing badly"

 

[Splash Damage]

imo, the KO meter is not a "reward for doing badly" kinda thing.

Not to that much of an extent, yes, though it still does reward you less for beating your opponent. I really can't tell why they made it this way, but they probably foresaw what could have been a tremendous weakness to campers in Mac's playstyle, and decided to give him that niche against them. Unfortunately though, that too much polarizes the building mechanic to campers, and not to aggressors, a type of MU that can be tough for Mac.

 

[Pikmin-ism42]

All mac needs is the ability to go horizontal with his recovery. Think of Wario's Widescrew. Only of recent have i realized that i have the potential to really PWN with Mac, and if his greatest weakness could be fixed that would be nice.

Oi mate, his greatest weakness was added for a reason.

 

[PHYTO-1]

Really? I can consistently b-reverse every b-reversible special in the game but I've never been able to reverse this one. Is the timing different or something?.

you know i b-reversed (it was more like b-turnaround, there was no momentum shift) straight lunge and KO punch a couple times but i dont know how. must've been buffered or something. its obviously not meant to be reversed though

imagine b-reversed KO punches

 

[mega4000]

Oi mate, his greatest weakness was added for a reason.

even with good recovery in plataform stages he would still suck. Mac needs to be rethought completly because is very easy to time him out.

 

[PHYTO-1]

even with good recovery in plataform stages he would still suck. Mac needs to be rethought completly because is very easy to time him out.

so sadly true...

never thought i would get timed out in a 2 stock battle

 

[deepseadiva]

~ The way KO Punch should only charge by dealing damage as opposed to receiving:
~ This is one of those annoying "getting rewarded for getting hit" mechanics. While not as severe as Lucario's aura it's still pretty dumb. Furthermore it goes against the actual canon. In Super Punch Out you filled the Power Metre by landing hits and you would lose it if you took hits. I don't think losing it before it builds is necessary in this game however.

Whenever this is suggested, I don't think you'll understand what actually happens to Mac if this were to happen. If the KO meter worked this way, a losing Mac would never win. A Mac who is a stock down would NEVER make a comeback since he lacks something the rest of the cast has: the power to edgeguard and gimp people.

KO meter is supposed to be the compensation for: 1) a lack of aerials, 2) any ability to edge guard, and the 3) the ability to gimp. Mac would be unusable if KO meter only worked when you're winning because just getting a stock down, or even a few hits down means you straight up lose since he lacks 3 full ways every other character can get damage/kills.

 

[Splash Damage]

Whenever this is suggested, I don't think you'll understand what actually happens to Mac if this were to happen. If the KO meter worked this way, a losing Mac would never win. A Mac who is a stock down would NEVER make a comeback since he lacks something the rest of the cast has: the power to edgeguard and gimp people.

KO meter is supposed to be the compensation for: 1) a lack of aerials, 2) any ability to edge guard, and the 3) the ability to gimp. Mac would be unusable if KO meter only worked when you're winning because just getting a stock down, or even a few hits down means you straight up lose since he lacks 3 full ways every other character can get damage/kills.

I feel if we evened the meter out rather than polarized it, it could still work the way it does now.

 

[Bleezyy]

I like how he is but I would love one thing since he has no air game make his dair spike.

 

[Bleezyy]

i see there is a lot of character discussions with a "buff/changes you would want for _____ character" thread

so im interested to see what you guys wanted for Mac baby. any buffs, combination of buffs and nerfs, any moves changed to other moves, that sort of thing.

i wrote a long thing about what i wanted for Little Mac in the Spoiler

Spoiler

here is what i wanted and i explain why later on

buffs
+make his side special have less landing/ending lag
+make his side special spike when used in the air
+make the K.O. Punch build the meter build a little quicker when dealing damage
+make his moves never go stale or at least make the staleness effect a little less
+changes to neutral special (more on his later)
+make his jab combo like captain falcon's in that holding the A button does his 1-2-3 jab combo while mashing A does his rapid jab
+normal 1-2-3 jab finishing blow has weak knock back that sends people horizontal so you can follow up easily
+fully charged down angled forward smash breaks shields unless perfect shielded
+improve grab range...like seriously lol

nerfs
-make him just a little bit slower
-make nair a little bit slower
-remove heavy armor on neutral special
-make the K.O. Punch not build the meter when taking damage

changes to neutral special
=still has the same long end lag
+you can store it at full charge
+when used in the air it sends you flying forward (only on full charge), but is a lot much weaker
+has much less endlag when used in the air
+can be used to snap to ledge
+you can shield while charging to cancel it and keep charging later (kinda like Samus and D.K. neutral special)
-when you unleash it at full charge there is a small start-up time
-is weak when used not fully charged
-has a 4 second charge time instead of 2 seconds

so the reasons for these things i wanted...

let's talk about that neutral special...

his current neutral special is next to worthless in 1v1. it charges REALLY slow and has a TON of cool down at full charge. you cannot store it and you cannot shield to cancel it. the only thing you can really do with it is use it in the middle of someone's rapid jab combo to armor though it and also you use it to eat weak air attacks from juggling you. the more you charge it does not increase the damage, it just makes him go further until you reach full charge, then it does more damage. nobody is going to get hit by this at full charge unless you're playing free for all...so i thought of something you could do with it to make it a bit more useful. giving mac a charge move that he can store for later gives people a reason to approach mac instead of just standing on the edge waiting for him to attack. because this move is SO powerful people will want to stop you from charging it. in training mode, it kill Mario at 60% at the center of Final Destination if you're close to him and kills him at around 80% if you're far away and slide into him. also it helps his recovery but you have to sacrifice that killing power for recovery power since it takes a long time to charge. the only time you would be able to charge is when your opponent is spamming you, not approaching, you sent them back and you can charge it up a little bit or after you take a stock...it would obviously charge too slow to charge it all the way in the air and then use it to get back. also having it be stored would be a great way to zoom across the stage and get a quick punish or to get a nasty punish out of shield when up close...but if you miss you have that insane endlag since the move is very strong.

buffs
•his side special is a very high risk, low reward kind of deal. you risk flying off the stage and dying or missing and getting hard punished, but if u land it you do like 14% and medium knockback. i mean i get it, you're meant to use it to leap over projectiles but even if i leap over the projectile and hit them i end up landing in front of them and get hard punished due to its landing lag. if it had less landing lag you could follow up from that and also make it a little bit easier to recover high

•the side special spiking is because if you can ledge trump someone as mac you can get a guaranteed side special i think. so if it could spike that would be a great way to finish off that last stock

•the K.O. Punch being built up faster for taking damage seems kinda silly to me. its like rewarding you for playing badly. and although you could argue that it rewards you for living a long time with Mac...i don't really see it that way. as far as i remember the star punch was given to mac for doing a good job and getting hits in without getting hit

•the moves not going stale or going stale not as fast is because...well think about it, his specials are very situational, his aerials are next to worthless...so that means he only has like 8 moves that are used a lot...and they go stale really fast and its annoying

•the jab combo thing is because i believe the normal jab should not do that much damage but be better for follow ups and the rapid jab should be good for damage but poor for follow ups as it sends people up and away.

nerfs
•the making him just a little slower thing is because he really doesn't need to be as fast as he is. i mean sure it is nice, but mac plays very defensive so i mostly walk around and take my time with him. besides these are pretty good buffs so i needed a nerf somewhere and this one made sense to me

•making nair a bit slower is because you can actually do some crazy things with it. like that air death combo on D.K. and you can fall with nair and interrupt air attacks and you can also gimp people with it off stage...which adds some aerial power to mac that is kinda against his play style. and before you come to me with "oh but the up-b move is strong in the air and you wanted to buff his side special to spike people off stage. isn't that against his playstyle too?" well the up b is easy to miss and if you do miss you're gonna get hard punished and even if you connect the side special off stage you're going to die.

•the reason i was thinking of removing the heavy armor on neutral special is because if you buffed his neutral special then he would not need that anymore.

anyway...those are just what i was thinking... i took a really long time to write this and its a giant wall of text i know, but i just needed to get this off my chest and write it down somewhere.

so please write what you think of my ideas or write your own. i would love to hear them :D

EDIT: im going to write down a short list of things im seeing most on this thread
1. change K.O. punch charging mechanic
2. improve horizontal recovery
3. improve grab
4. improve straight lunge

Lol those nerfs hurting my soul

 

[Splash Damage]

I like how he is but I would love one thing since he has no air game make his dair spike.

It does, it's just extraordinarily weak. But hey, at least it jab locks.

 

[Virum]

Whenever this is suggested, I don't think you'll understand what actually happens to Mac if this were to happen. If the KO meter worked this way, a losing Mac would never win. A Mac who is a stock down would NEVER make a comeback since he lacks something the rest of the cast has: the power to edgeguard and gimp people.

KO meter is supposed to be the compensation for: 1) a lack of aerials, 2) any ability to edge guard, and the 3) the ability to gimp. Mac would be unusable if KO meter only worked when you're winning because just getting a stock down, or even a few hits down means you straight up lose since he lacks 3 full ways every other character can get damage/kills.

As it should be. If you're losing you shouldn't just have a one button clutch that you can just pull out after being outplayed the entire game. That's awful design. Mac's powerful ground game serves as compensation for his poor aerials and if you think he can't edgeguard you're silly. Due to the strength of recoveries in this game in general a lot of the time it's safer to edgeguard onstage anyway, which Mac can do just fine with moves like DSmash and DTilt. Then you have the fact that this character has incredible raw kill potential due to the strength of his Smashes. A solid handful of hits and your opponent is at death percent from a character with some of the safest ground moves in the game. Not to mention the ability to gimp with FAir. This character would be no where near unusable without the KO Punch. You play him on point and regardless of whether or not the KO Punch is there you will assert control with this character.

 

[deepseadiva]

Little Mac would be a joke without KO Punch, I don't understand how that's not completely obvious.

Go ahead and play some handicapped matches against anyone: play Little Mac, but every time you fill the KO meter throw the punch away into the air. See how many matches you can win.

He becomes totally unusable, because trading becomes DEATH for him. All a character has to do is get him up to 70% or 80% and he essentially is KO'd by any throw, smash, or tilt (since a gimp opportunity is lethal for him).

As much as you don't like the KO Punch, it's the one thing that keeps him and scary and viable. If you don't believe me take the challenge and throw away his KO Punches. You'll quickly see how crucial they are.

 

[Virum]

Again if you think he's unusable without KO Punch that reflects on you as a player not the character as you become reliant on an unnecessary clutch. I've played this character in tournament, he's my second most played character overall and I've committed many many hours into playing him. He's more than capable without the KO Punch provided you're playing him well.