Changes you would like to see for Little Mac

[Splash Damage]

LOL wat. Mario walking on Mac, since when? Yeah man, all those lag frames and slow momentum sure make him easy to punish! That dtilt spam into KO punch combo is also terrible, right? Mario has a terrible time trying to approach Mac, as his uptilt and dtilt are incredibly spammable and powerful, alongside Super Armored moves with low lag time and high knockback (shields included!) that keep your spacing naturally quite good against other melee fighters.

1.Since when was Mac's UpTilt spammable, or even used at all? As a Mac main I never once have used it to space or at all in neutral in all my hours of playing him(And by all my hours I mean many hundreds.) It's only used during low-percentage followups once or twice in the combo for free damage. That's essentially it.
2.You know super armor loses to grabs, and if Mac is grabbed out of a smash you both get pushed towards the ledge which puts you in an incredible position to just b-throw him, right? Actually, due to Mario's incredibly easy BnB D-throw combos, any Mac relying on SA smashes to win neutral should be a godsend to you, especially when shieldgrabbing exists.
3.Mario's stomped on Mac since always. He has likely the safest options to stop his recoveries, and more than enough to deal with all his possible routes. Cape, Fludd, and Bair altogether force Mac to be much smarter with his recovery than he would have to be normally, and overall force him to undergo much more pressure than normal.

His grabs should be awful with how powerful he is...Why not try to pivot grab like C Falc and Sonic? You're not much slower physically than them and it'll probably put you in a better position on the map than most should you wiff, or if you throw them off the edge and charge/plan out a down/forward/uptilt/smash.

1.As a Falcon secondary, I can confirm that it's pretty innacurate to say that Falcons 'try to use pivot grab' often at all. I only use it for reads and crossups and even then it's very uncommon to do as Dashgrab on him does about the same job.
2.How could a whiffed grab ever put anyone in a good position? As Mac, a whiffed pivot grab is insanely punishable and puts you in a terrible position. Any mac worth their weight will be closer to center stage than their opponent, so running past or away and pivot grabbing ruins your stage control, gives you ~10+ frames of endlag, and puts you on ledge, AKA Mac's worst nightmare.

I'm legitimately not trying to start a war or anything, just giving input from someone who's faced a lot of Macs and still flips a coin on his win percetage every time he goes against one, and that's with about an 80% winrate of 1100/1300 games on For Glory. Buffing Mac that much just seems insane to me, especially with the rather petty nerfs presented to "compensate."

1.Hate to be that guy, but For Glory win percentages mean very little when it comes to competitive tournament play. A random online setup exclusively on FD/Omegas with input lag(&often simply frame drop lag), no stage striking, no customs, almost no competitive opponents who have a reason and motivation to win for(Money, trophy, sponsorship, glory, ext), odd time limit, ect., make it so that experiences on it simply cant be validly used to judge competitive tournament level play.
2.Buffing any non-top tier to as little a degree as so that they may not dominate the meta is not and will never be insane.
3.I don't see how making someone's main spacing tool, combo starter, poke option, & overall likely best move altogether slower by 1-3 frames, reducing the length of his counter& height of his wall jump, and slow down one of his other most useful ground moves is "petty" at all. Say if Mario's U-tilt took 3 extra frames to come out. Sounds petty, but that would make his d-throw>u-tilt not work anymore due to most characters have fast enough aerials/specials to escape.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Mario is a character with some of the best overall frame data in the game coupled with great mobility overall. Mac misspaces an option, Mario opts for an OoS punish with an aerial, or even worse a grab, and converts into massive damage and stage control off of one punish and due to Mac's limited aerial options (which again still remain just as limited) Mario can extend his punishes relatively easily. Conversely a good number of Mac's usual frame traps and setups don't work vs Mario because all Mario has to do is NAir as he comes down. And don't even get me started on how free it is to gimp Mac as Mario. The buffs I stated wouldn't even change that.



Air dodge to the ground? Are you actually for real? Air dodging into the ground is almost ALWAYS a bad option. That's just asking for a free grab punish due to the lag you suffer from it. And Mario gets a ton off of his grabs. I don't see how you could possibly think air dodging to the ground would give Mac stage control again. That makes no sense.



Because Mac's pivot grab is slower and has less range than both of those characters and isn't really much less punishable than a regular or dash grab. Falcon's not even really reliant on his pivot grab anyway. He's much more focused on his incredible dash grab. Pivot grab is mainly used for extending certain punishes.

So air dodging to avoid aerial attacks, and fast falling to the ground (which gives Mac no lag time, and he falls faster than Mario) is a bad option? Did you think I meant air dodge and let the small amount of lag time hinder you? And what are you talking about? Nair gets destroyed by super armored upsmash, even worse, it'll put you right in that 30% sweetspot should you try to engage with it. It also gets out prioritized by uptilt, or a shield+grab. (Although Mac's grab may be slow enough for Mario to sneak in a jab combo or up+b if he shields, I'm not sure on the frames of that). Mario has the opportunity to get a "ton" off his grabs, but also gets punished heavily if he should wiff, which it's easy for Mac to bait and punish moves in general because of his speed and lack of lag time. Also, stage position is very important, I guess Mario's best option if he's not at the edge of the stage is probably downthrow into up+b, and maybe a FLUDD followup to try to keep you airborne. If he upthrows and gets a few upairs or tries to juggle backairs, his juggle will just build up that KO meter should Mac get grounded, making every percent on him a potential risk. Mario is a character that relies on juggles and combo strings, but the more you hit Mac, the madder he gets, and since his dtilt to KO punch is unavoidable, and easy to bait/setup, that poses quite a problem for our plumber friend. I guess his best option could be back airs over the edge, should he set up a good backthrow from the edge or Mac's percent rises, but then again, this works for other characters at higher percents. Once again, I feel like Mac is really good where he's at, and if anything, a buff he should get is to have his up+b snap to ledge instead of the old recovery distance. Double jump, wall jump, and up+b is actually quite good where it's at as far as distance goes, imo. Letting it snap should really help him more than additional length.

 

[FrankTheStud]

1.Since when was Mac's UpTilt spammable, or even used at all? As a Mac main I never once have used it to space or at all in neutral in all my hours of playing him(And by all my hours I mean many hundreds.) It's only used during low-percentage followups once or twice in the combo for free damage. That's essentially it.
2.You know super armor loses to grabs, and if Mac is grabbed out of a smash you both get pushed towards the ledge which puts you in an incredible position to just b-throw him, right? Actually, due to Mario's incredibly easy BnB D-throw combos, any Mac relying on SA smashes to win neutral should be a godsend to you, especially when shieldgrabbing exists.
3.Mario's stomped on Mac since always. He has likely the safest options to stop his recoveries, and more than enough to deal with all his possible routes. Cape, Fludd, and Bair altogether force Mac to be much smarter with his recovery than he would have to be normally, and overall force him to undergo much more pressure than normal.

1.As a Falcon secondary, I can confirm that it's pretty innacurate to say that Falcons 'try to use pivot grab' often at all. I only use it for reads and crossups and even then it's very uncommon to do as Dashgrab on him does about the same job.
2.How could a whiffed grab ever put anyone in a good position? As Mac, a whiffed pivot grab is insanely punishable and puts you in a terrible position. Any mac worth their weight will be closer to center stage than their opponent, so running past or away and pivot grabbing ruins your stage control, gives you ~10+ frames of endlag, and puts you on ledge, AKA Mac's worst nightmare.

1.Hate to be that guy, but For Glory win percentages mean very little when it comes to competitive tournament play. A random online setup exclusively on FD/Omegas with input lag(&often simply frame drop lag), no stage striking, no customs, almost no competitive opponents who have a reason and motivation to win for(Money, trophy, sponsorship, glory, ext), odd time limit, ect., make it so that experiences on it simply cant be validly used to judge competitive tournament level play.
2.Buffing any non-top tier to as little a degree as so that they may not dominate the meta is not and will never be insane.
3.I don't see how making someone's main spacing tool, combo starter, poke option, & overall likely best move altogether slower by 1-3 frames, reducing the length of his counter& height of his wall jump, and slow down one of his other most useful ground moves is "petty" at all. Say if Mario's U-tilt took 3 extra frames to come out. Sounds petty, but that would make his d-throw>u-tilt not work anymore due to most characters have fast enough aerials/specials to escape.

Don't use your uptilt much and isn't spammable? What? It has crazy priority, a pretty good hitbox, and good knockback. It's essentially Mac's counter to aerial engagements. While it gets free damage I can agree with, it's a very safe option for Mac to avoid getting within Mario's grab-range, which brings me to your next point. Super armor loses to grabs, but your sweet spots for a lot of your super armored moves ironically sits at about the distance Mario could possibly grab you at, and Mac's knockback (should Mario try to shield-grab) on his Smash attacks is outstanding, as it sends you out of grabbing range even in shield. If anything, you'd have to sidestep and pray he doesn't immediately downtilt, should you try to grab out of sidestep. I mentioned before that Bair is good against anyone in general for keeping them off stage, not just Mac specifically, but it also requires being quite risky, as Mac players will fall under the stage (to avoid FLUDD sprays from on-stage), and try to approach from the neutral/bottom area of the stage. Should Mario overcommit to backairs, he will kill himself in the process. What I'm saying about his pivot grab is that if someone is playing defensively, ie shielding and waiting you out, a pivot grab isn't necessarily a bad option, as if you wiff, you have enough momentum to slide away while your endlag cools down. Mario won't be able to catch up and punish unless you pivot grab while he's already at ledge, which isn't a wise option in the first place. The time it takes for Mario to get out of shield and dash towards you (not even grab) is probably more than ~10+ frames.

I understand that For Glory win percentages don't mean much, but it shows that I've played a lot of games and a lot of matchups, especially against Mac (probably most overused character next to C.Falc) on neutral stages. Also, Zero plays on For Glory all the time as various characters, and he's (arguably) the best player in the game, and plays every character phenomenally. Believe it or not, 1v1s don't have a lot of lag, and there are a lot of outstanding players online.
As far as Mario's d-throw into u-tilt is already easy to escape from for most characters (fast fallers can shield it out), and other characters can usually jump out after one hit--Maybe two. If anything, his d-throw into up+b is much harder to escape from, or if they're floaty enough, d-throw, up-tilt, up+b. One frame nerf may mean a lot on paper, but it's hard to see it meaning much in battle without seeing it, as adding 1/60th of a second worth of startup is still very fast. 3 extra frames? Maybe...I guess I'd have to actually see it and feel it in some sort of testing area to really know what it's like.

Once again, I'm not trying to be trolly, I'm just providing input from a Mario player who thinks Little Mac is much better than most people make him out to be, and providing perspective on the troubles Mario faces against Mac.

 

[Splash Damage]

Don't use your uptilt much and isn't spammable? What? It has crazy priority, a pretty good hitbox, and good knockback. It's essentially Mac's counter to aerial engagements. While it gets free damage I can agree with, it's a very safe option for Mac to avoid getting within Mario's grab-range, which brings me to your next point.

1.U-tilt's front hitbox is so poor that it can't even hit Pikachu when he's standing. Proper use requires you to P-Pivot into it, which takes even longer and forces a specific control setup.
2.As an anti-air option it pales in comparison to Usmash, as Usmash is stronger, safer, has SA and is just overall better. U-tilt gets beaten by any landing aerial thats positioned well and doesn't get you many different options off of a hit barring the Up-Bs, which can be DI'd and don't work past certain percents anyway.
3.Doesn't actually have great priority especially by Mac's standards. Trades with attacks often in my experience.
4.Not safe in neutral at all especially when shielded, and even more so when you compare Mac's other options. Not nearly as safe for avoiding grabs as any of his other moves.
5.It's far from being his counter to aerial engaments. This is obvious, especially considering that he has two fantastic options for combating aerials that actually work OoS(Those being UpB and UpSmash).

Super armor loses to grabs, but your sweet spots for a lot of your super armored moves ironically sits at about the distance Mario could possibly grab you at, and Mac's knockback (should Mario try to shield-grab) on his Smash attacks is outstanding, as it sends you out of grabbing range even in shield. If anything, you'd have to sidestep and pray he doesn't immediately downtilt, should you try to grab out of sidestep.

1.In the case of Mac's smash attack range, just space hit out and bait the F-smash. Even a perfectly spaced F-smash on shield can be punished by any character with good burst options, especially when perfect shielded. In fact, Mac struggles against perfect shields really.
2.Not true. There's numerous different ways to deal with his options in neutral, far from simply "Spotdodge and hope he doesn't d-tilt." One of these is simply not dealing with them. Zone him out until he overcommits, then punish.

I mentioned before that Bair is good against anyone in general for keeping them off stage, not just Mac specifically, but it also requires being quite risky, as Mac players will fall under the stage (to avoid FLUDD sprays from on-stage), and try to approach from the neutral/bottom area of the stage. Should Mario overcommit to backairs, he will kill himself in the process.

3.In that case it's still not even risky at all to simply throw out the B-air due to the time it takes for Mac to return to the stage when recovering low. Even if you incorrectly guess his recovery, you're not in a bad spot when Mac's offstage recovering. There's no case when attempting to edgeguard Mac that will also cause your character, especially when that character is Mario, to die for the edgeguard.
4.What you've described is you having trouble with recovery mixups. If a Mac is recovering low, runoff>Bair. Mid, Cape or Fludd. High, anything you want. You can't expect only one edgeguarding option to work unanimously.

What I'm saying about his pivot grab is that if someone is playing defensively, ie shielding and waiting you out, a pivot grab isn't necessarily a bad option, as if you wiff, you have enough momentum to slide away while your endlag cools down. Mario won't be able to catch up and punish unless you pivot grab while he's already at ledge, which isn't a wise option in the first place. The time it takes for Mario to get out of shield and dash towards you (not even grab) is probably more than ~10+ frames.

4.You seem to be hugely overestimating his pivot grab slide, and pivot grab slides in general. If I'm playing Little Mac and miss a pivot grab on ledge, you better believe I will take an F-smash to the face or anything that character wants. He hardly slides at all, or at least not nearly far enough to make it even close to safe. Especially considering how close you can be while still whiffing.
5.IIRC, Mac's Pivot Grab ends at frame 36-39, with the grab itself occurring on frame 11. That's 28 frames. In short, you have just less than half a second to punish with whatever you want(Salmon F-smash, dashgrab, dash attack, fludd, short hop B-air, JCUS, P-Pivot D-smash, ect ect ect.)

I understand that For Glory win percentages don't mean much, but it shows that I've played a lot of games and a lot of matchups, especially against Mac (probably most overused character next to C.Falc) on neutral stages. Also, Zero plays on For Glory all the time as various characters, and he's (arguably) the best player in the game, and plays every character phenomenally. Believe it or not, 1v1s don't have a lot of lag, and there are a lot of outstanding players online.

6.Again, I hate to be that guy, but for glory wins mean almost nothing when it comes to a tournament. I've regrettably played quite a bit of For Glory myself, and I can safely say that there will always, without fail, be at least 2-3 frames of input lag, if not much more and FPS drops. Hbox said it best, "Smash 4 becomes much less dynamic online due to the lag forcing you to be more careful." You can't compare that to buttery smooth offline tournament play. I could win 2,000 matches on For Glory and I'd still get bopped at locals if I didn't practice offline and lab extensively.
7.Yes, ZeRo makes For Glory videos sometimes, but that is far from his main way of practicing, especially when he lives with unfair amounts of top players who he can start up a training session with at the drop of a hat.
8.Not true. Any amount of lag is too much/a lot, regardless of wether or not it can be ignored. There are some excellent players online, but the ratio of skilled players to first-day players is simply too much to call it an accurate representation of tournament play. At best, it's a simulator of at-venue Friendlies, not bracket matches.

 

[Zodiacx10]

i really hate how they nerfed his rapid jab...it doesnt seem to keep people in hitstun long enough and they usually can break free or something.
also why does his jab not do a gentleman when you hold A like every other character?

 

[Splash Damage]

i really hate how they nerfed his rapid jab...it doesnt seem to keep people in hitstun long enough and they usually can break free or something.
also why does his jab not do a gentleman when you hold A like every other character?

I don't mind it. It was pretty absurd before, though I've seen a lot of people talking about hitstun with it. Personally I've never had this issue, though changing it to have the Gentlemen be done by holding A and the rapid done by mashing would be desired.

 

[Virum]

i really hate how they nerfed his rapid jab...it doesnt seem to keep people in hitstun long enough and they usually can break free or something.
also why does his jab not do a gentleman when you hold A like every other character?

It really needed that nerf though imo. The fact that you, on average, could get over 20% from holding A off of a frame 1 attack was silly.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Alright i will admit that doing 20% by hold the a button was silly...but at least increase the hitstun or something.

 

[BoxingRingBasher]

Little Mac would be a joke without KO Punch, I don't understand how that's not completely obvious.

Go ahead and play some handicapped matches against anyone: play Little Mac, but every time you fill the KO meter throw the punch away into the air. See how many matches you can win.

He becomes totally unusable, because trading becomes DEATH for him. All a character has to do is get him up to 70% or 80% and he essentially is KO'd by any throw, smash, or tilt (since a gimp opportunity is lethal for him).

As much as you don't like the KO Punch, it's the one thing that keeps him and scary and viable. If you don't believe me take the challenge and throw away his KO Punches. You'll quickly see how crucial they are.

To me is fine without the K.O. Uppercut because I usually mess it up and I still get kills. Messing it up helps me focus on trying not to land it on a player but focus on the fight at hand.

 

[Splash Damage]

To me is fine without the K.O. Uppercut because I usually mess it up and I still get kills. Messing it up helps me focus on trying not to land it on a player but focus on the fight at hand.

Agreed. Saying "Mac is useless without the KO punch" is completely synonymous with "I rely on it too much."

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

To me is fine without the K.O. Uppercut because I usually mess it up and I still get kills. Messing it up helps me focus on trying not to land it on a player but focus on the fight at hand.

I cant play as little mac due to his poor recovery... as you should know, "BoxingRingBasher."

 

[HyperL]

Hey, I noticed that is very light, which is very bad for a character with such poor recovery because he can be knocked out of the stage too early.
So what if his weight is upgraded to the heavyweight division?
That would make him a lot more durable, no?

 

[CHOVI]

Hey, I noticed that is very light, which is very bad for a character with such poor recovery because he can be knocked out of the stage too early.
So what if his weight is upgraded to the heavyweight division?
That would make him a lot more durable, no?

He's not too light, but I agree, getting killed by a Ganondorf ftilt at 60% is ridiculous ¬¬

 

[shinhed-echi]

I'm sorry.. but he needs a better recovery. I know he has teh speed and power on the ground, but that's just it. He's already SUPER low-priority on the air. And Captain Falcon is also strong AND fast, except both on the air and on the ground.

Having a terrible air game would be less of an issue if we could at least make it back to the stage safely. I'm SUPER salty about losing to a pair of Shulk nairs. Heck, I'd rather have Mac wave "hello" for every aerial if he could at least have descent recovery options!

That, or... realistically? Improve his grabs, and grab attacks. If people could fear EVERY aspect of Mac's ground game, THEN I'd say it's a fair trade for his subpar airgame, and having the worst recovery in the game.

 

[HyperL]

I'm sorry.. but he needs a better recovery. I know he has teh speed and power on the ground, but that's just it. He's already SUPER low-priority on the air. And Captain Falcon is also strong AND fast, except both on the air and on the ground.

Having a terrible air game would be less of an issue if we could at least make it back to the stage safely. I'm SUPER salty about losing to a pair of Shulk nairs. Heck, I'd rather have Mac wave "hello" for every aerial if he could at least have descent recovery options!

That, or... realistically? Improve his grabs, and grab attacks. If people could fear EVERY aspect of Mac's ground game, THEN I'd say it's a fair trade for his subpar airgame, and having the worst recovery in the game.

Maybe give his second jump super-armor just like Yoshi.
Thus, his recovery would be a bit more safe, without removing one of his weak points (poor recovery moves) that the developers had made for him. If timed right he would be able to escape gimps by jumping.

 

[Maxoxpower]

it's me or the recovery is better after the patch?! you can move after pressing UP B !

 

[Renegade TX2000]

it's me or the recovery is better after the patch?! you can move after pressing UP B !

You could always do that... Next...

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'm sorry.. but he needs a better recovery. I know he has teh speed and power on the ground, but that's just it. He's already SUPER low-priority on the air. And Captain Falcon is also strong AND fast, except both on the air and on the ground.

Having a terrible air game would be less of an issue if we could at least make it back to the stage safely. I'm SUPER salty about losing to a pair of Shulk nairs. Heck, I'd rather have Mac wave "hello" for every aerial if he could at least have descent recovery options!

That, or... realistically? Improve his grabs, and grab attacks. If people could fear EVERY aspect of Mac's ground game, THEN I'd say it's a fair trade for his subpar airgame, and having the worst recovery in the game.

I feel the same way, but you bring up something I hadnt considered; his grab game really does suck! He cant really followup that well either.

That's kind of bullcrap when you think about it. It's a lot harder to approach shielding players when your grab range is like 2 pixels.

 

[CHOVI]

I feel the same way, but you bring up something I hadnt considered; his grab game really does suck! He cant really followup that well either.

That's kind of bullcrap when you think about it. It's a lot harder to approach shielding players when your grab range is like 2 pixels.

But we do have enough tools to pressure shields without grabs, and we can also roll cancel the grab and the range is significantly increased.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I feel the same way, but you bring up something I hadnt considered; his grab game really does suck! He cant really followup that well either.

That's kind of bullcrap when you think about it. It's a lot harder to approach shielding players when your grab range is like 2 pixels.

I know he's supposed to grab/clench like a boxer, and that means little range... But I don't see Pikachu struggling with grabs with its tiny paws.
(Or just make the grab faster).

Maybe give his second jump super-armor just like Yoshi.
Thus, his recovery would be a bit more safe, without removing one of his weak points (poor recovery moves) that the developers had made for him. If timed right he would be able to escape gimps by jumping.

I like this one. I don't know how fair it would be, but in the end, as long as he doesn't get gimped by a water squirt...


Ok, even more realistically speaking. Auto-snap to his UP+B. A lot of characters have this. Mac could at least get auto-snap.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Ok, even more realistically speaking. Auto-snap to his UP+B. A lot of characters have this. Mac could at least get auto-snap.

I'm not so sure about this one. Since Up-B doesnt snap, it can catch people sitting on the ledge and send them straight up, leaving mac with a big enough window to safely get back on stage. I've done this many times against other players who think they can stuff it with a down-tilt or down-smash

Just something to consider.

 

[Splash Damage]

I'm not so sure about this one. Since Up-B doesnt snap, it can catch people sitting on the ledge and send them straight up, leaving mac with a big enough window to safely get back on stage. I've done this many times against other players who think they can stuff it with a down-tilt or down-smash

Just something to consider.

He would sill be able to do that the way it is now by just *cringe* Beefy up-b'ing(A tech named after a few guys who made a video on it). All he has to do is hold down as he's up B'ing and all the hits will go through for as long as you hold down, then he would autosnap as soon as you let go.

 

[inconspikuous]

... *cringe* Beefy up-b'ing (A tech named after a few guys who made a video on it)....

no, don't give in to the dark side! i really hope someone comes up with a better name soon. lol.

 

[CHOVI]

no, don't give in to the dark side! i really hope someone comes up with a better name soon. lol.

I agree. The name "Beefy Up B" is just terrible

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Honestly I'm pretty happy with little mac, except for one thing. I would love for them to increase the distance away from the ledge he can be and still grab it. A few times now I've done the up B near the ledge, gotten high enough to hit someone standing on the ledge with the last hit, but failed to have it actually grab, which is infuriating. If I can hit something on the ledge, I should be close enough to grab it, period.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I agree. The name "Beefy Up B" is just terrible

Meaty UpB? Hard UpB? Raw UpB? YOLO UpB?

 

[CHOVI]

Meaty UpB? Hard UpB? Raw UpB? YOLO UpB?

I kind of like YOLO UpB dumb as it sounds

 

[Ghidorah14]

I kind of like YOLO UpB dumb as it sounds

A lot of LM's moves could be described as YOLO. I think that would explain little macs who sideB off the stage. They're just like "YOLO!"

Oh my god, can we make that a thing? YOLO Side B?

 

[Splash Damage]

Dont worry, I hate the name too. Anyways,

Honestly I'm pretty happy with little mac, except for one thing. I would love for them to increase the distance away from the ledge he can be and still grab it. A few times now I've done the up B near the ledge, gotten high enough to hit someone standing on the ledge with the last hit, but failed to have it actually grab, which is infuriating. If I can hit something on the ledge, I should be close enough to grab it, period.

That's mainly due to the fact that the last hitbox is acres larger than his glove(to the point where Up-tilt>Up-B is a true kill combo when one is buffered out of the other). This means that you can hit hit someone pretty far away from where your fist actually is, and as such, not be legitimately close enough to be able to grab the ledge. I know exactly what type of situation you're referring too as well, and even after having it happen to me, I have to say that asking for the smash 4 magnet hands to become even more magnetic? Seems a bit farfetched.
-------
Moving on, let's get back on track here. Time to continue the nerf/buff list:
Here's what I'd put so far:
-Reverse the KO punch building mechanics to one of these options
~100% damage dealt fills the meter, 334% damage taken also fills the meter.
~175% in total, taken or recieved, fills the meter(fight-the-campers version)
-Push back Jab1&Jab2's IASA frames to enable combos out of them
-Increase ground jump height to enable him to reach more platforms, while keeping his second jump and UpB the same heights(Duck Hunt stage buff)
-Increase D-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Increase F-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Decrease roll speed by 4-5 frames
Suggest any other nerfs/buffs you have in mind with reasoning. Let's get this thread back to what it was supposed to be.

 

[Ghidorah14]

-Increase D-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Increase F-tilt startup time by 1-2 frames
-Decrease roll speed by 4-5 frames

Why would you want to nerf him...?

 

[Splash Damage]

Why would you want to nerf him...?

Just to balance out the buffs. He's already a character just out of high tier, giving him all these buffs and nothing to compensate would be asking for quite a lot.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Just to balance out the buffs. He's already a character just out of high tier, giving him all these buffs and nothing to compensate would be asking for quite a lot.

Wut?

He's mid-tier at best, and this is coming from a LM main. He doesnt need any buffs, aside from maybe buffing his sideB to travel the same distance in the air that it used to. His frame data on the ground shouldnt be messed with because THATS LITERALLY ALL HE'S GOT.

 

[Splash Damage]

Wut?

He's mid-tier at best, and this is coming from a LM main. He doesnt need any buffs, aside from maybe buffing his sideB to travel the same distance in the air that it used to. His frame data on the ground shouldnt be messed with because THATS LITERALLY ALL HE'S GOT.

Mid tier at best and doesnt need any buffs?
...very much disagreed, but you're entitled to your opinion.

In any case, anyone have any change ideas? In retrospect, slowing his D-tilt would likely be a poor idea, but F-tilt wouldn't really lose any utility with a 1-2 frame slowing.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Mid tier at best and doesnt need any buffs?
...very much disagreed, but you're entitled to your opinion.

In any case, anyone have any change ideas? In retrospect, slowing his D-tilt would likely be a poor idea, but F-tilt wouldn't really lose any utility with a 1-2 frame slowing.

Why does he need to be considered high tier to be good? Mac is very specialized. His frame data and moves are all basically right where they should be. A character should not be buffed on the basis that they arent high tier. That's just stupid.

And if Ftilt wouldnt lose any ultility if they gave it more frames, whats the point of even adding those miniscule frames? It doesnt do or change anything.

 

[HyperL]

What about his landing issues? I'm no LM main and i know aerial combat is supposed to be his weakness, but not being able to land safely is basically THE free setup for knocking him off the stage. Any thoughts on how to fix this problem?

 

[Ghidorah14]

What about his landing issues? I'm no LM main and i know aerial combat is supposed to be his weakness, but not being able to land safely is basically THE free setup for knocking him off the stage. Any thoughts on how to fix this problem?

Fast fall into shield?

 

[HyperL]

Fast fall into shield?

I guess......if your opponent are not expecting it i mean.
There is also baits to punishment.

 

[TakeYourHeart]

First post here and I'll admit, this thread is what convinced me to join Smashboards, such passionate discussion is always a delight to read!

As for my own opinions on what should change about Little Mac:
Get his Side-B recovery back to pre 1.0.4 days. While I don't know how much better it was pre-patch (started playing after said patch) I do think that it is universally requested for good reason. Mac dittos often show how lethal low percent (like, 43% (ftilt) to 58% (f-smash) on a For Glory training dumby) smash attacks are close to the edge, so making it take one powerful hit from a fellow Mac at the edge more should be fine.

I disagree it should be one way or the other on the KO Punch. Rather, have damage and to Mac and from Mac matter equally. If you're equally skilled to your opponent you should be able to deliver enough hits for the result to be roughly the same, but taking close to kill percent damage and doing little else should result in the KO punch being out of reach. I think the anti-snowball argument has merit, but I also agree it's more satisfying to get the KO punch from hitting, rather then be hit. The exact numbers are hard to figure out, so maybe it's slight nerf to KO meter when receiving damage and slight buff to meter when giving damage, but the scenario I described sounds, IMO, ideal to me and everyone.

And that's it. I know people have their concerns about grab reach/speed and jabs but I personally think Mac needs very little to be that much better, no matter how you play.

 

[Splash Damage]

Why does he need to be considered high tier to be good? Mac is very specialized. His frame data and moves are all basically right where they should be. A character should not be buffed on the basis that they arent high tier. That's just stupid.

That's not my point. The name and premise for this thread is literally "changes you would like to see for Little Mac." You responded to my nerf/bufflist as though I was taking some new stance/'bringing in a new idea for the thread even though thinking of nerfs and buffs was litterally the pointfrom the start, as was very clearly shown in the OP. If you think it's stupid then I honestly don't know why you're here, and arguing with the idea of a nerf/bufflist is counter to the idea of this thread. If you disagree, that's fine, but I don't know why you A)took this long to say it and B)even came here in the first place if you knew that was the point of this discussion. I don't think immaturely referring to a statement/idea as "stupid" and acting like it was never the point is productive when you should have known full well since you came in that this was the point.

What about his landing issues? I'm no LM main and i know aerial combat is supposed to be his weakness, but not being able to land safely is basically THE free setup for knocking him off the stage. Any thoughts on how to fix this problem?

I've never had too many issues landing as Mac even in tournament. His options to land, while unorthodox on paper, are relatively effective. Options like Fastfall Nair work wonders due to the unpredictability of the move as well as it confirming into jabs or D-tilts, and even stopping whatever move the opponent went for and confusing them. Up B can potentially work as well due to the invincibility, and paired with the kill power, it's pretty good to land with if they're not thinking of it. Besides that, Flaming Straight lunge and Jolt Haymaker both are pretty solid mixups for it. All of the ideas I've come up with I have also tested in both at-venue friendlies and in bracket against most common characters.

 

[Ghidorah14]

That's not my point. The name and premise for this thread is literally "changes you would like to see for Little Mac." You responded to my nerf/bufflist as though I was taking some new stance/'bringing in a new idea for the thread even though thinking of nerfs and buffs was litterally the pointfrom the start, as was very clearly shown in the OP. If you think it's stupid then I honestly don't know why you're here, and arguing with the idea of a nerf/bufflist is counter to the idea of this thread. If you disagree, that's fine, but I don't know why you A)took this long to say it and B)even came here in the first place if you knew that was the point of this discussion. I don't think immaturely referring to a statement/idea as "stupid" and acting like it was never the point is productive when you should have known full well since you came in that this was the point.

Your suggested nerfs dont do or change anything, except possibly make his ground game (the one thing he has going for him) slightly less efficient.

And buffing a character does not mean you need to "balance it out" by nerfing something in return.