Change "switch Pokemon" to a take up a Taunt

[Leaf_It]

I posted this suggestion in this thread, but thought it could be good to get wider opinion.

I think we can all agree that it would fantastic if Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard all had full move sets, instead of missing a move because they are tied to the Pokemon Trainer.

There's a simple fix to all of this. Just make the move to switch Pokemon take up one of the taunt commands, instead of removing a move from any of the 3 Pokemon.

Can we Create a Poll for this actually? We need to get Sakurai to see this suggestion.

 

[Fidooblius]

I agree with this.

 

[JOE!]

Probably far too late for that to be changed

 

[Putuk]

It'd be neat if they used the side taunts for this.

This way you could choose which 'mon you'd switch to, instead of rotating them out.

For example, you got Ivysaur out, if you use your left Taunt, you'd switch to Squirtle and the right would switch to Charizard.

It'd be so good in combination with your not automatically switching once a stock is taken.

 

[Dendros]

This would be a very user unfriendly descision. As your control scheme for Pokemon trainer now is dramatically different from all other fighters.

 

[Deleted member]

As long as you could still switch in the air I'd be on board with it. At the very least there should be a way to switch to either of your inactive Pokemon.

 

[ggamer77]

This would be a very user unfriendly descision. As your control scheme for Pokemon trainer now is dramatically different from all other fighters.

More dramatically different than Ryu or Bayonetta?

 

[Spinosaurus]

More dramatically different than Ryu or Bayonetta?

Yeah? They're not using a different controller function than normal for fundamental inputs, Ryu command inputs still use the stick. I doubt this is the reason they aren't doing this (since there's plenty other alternative ways to do it, like how Inklings recharge ink) but the person you quoted isn't wrong, from a design standpoint it isn't entirely intuitive.

Anyway the reason this isn't happening is because this character really doesn't need to be more versatile than they already are.

 

[Leaf_It]

I have created a petition in the hopes that this suggestion might actually reach Sakurai, and Nintendo.

https://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/926/820/556/

 

[Lonk_In_Hirool]

It would be cool, but it’s probably too late and you can’t taunt mid air, so you won’t be able to do the cool combos

 

[The Real Gamer]

Anyway the reason this isn't happening is because this character really doesn't need to be more versatile than they already are.

I agree with this. Without stamina + the ability to switch between Pokemon so fast PT has the potential to actually be really freaking good this time around.

There needs to be some sort of drawback to essentially having 3 characters in one, and one less move will have to be one of them.

 

[Leaf_It]

It would be cool, but it’s probably too late and you can’t taunt mid air, so you won’t be able to do the cool combos

You can't taunt mid air, but you can still hit the buttons to taunt, they just don't work in the air, because all of the taunts are animated for when a chasracter is on the ground, and stationary. If switching pokemon was moved to the side taunt controls, they could simply allow switching to work in the air, since it doesn't have these restictions due to the animation.

I agree with this. Without stamina + the ability to switch between Pokemon so fast PT has the potential to actually be really freaking good this time around.

There needs to be some sort of drawback to essentially having 3 characters in one, and one less move will have to be one of them.

Like how there should be a downside to Ice Climbers being two characters at the same time, or Rosalina and Luma being two characters at the same time? Pokemon trainer only has one Pokemon out at a time, so I really don't think they need to make them weaker at all. It's not like your damage goes away when you switch, or anything. You can say they are able to switch play styles easily, but you can kind of do that with other characters too. I don't see this as good reason to remove their Down Special.

 

[JJBro1]

We can sign it all we want but it won't take traction until it becomes a meme (Ridley) or a ****storm (Battlefront). Who would we send this to? It would have to be a direct link to sakurai or the closest thing. Here's his twitter https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai

 

[Bolshoi]

Like how there should be a downside to Ice Climbers being two characters at the same time, or Rosalina and Luma being two characters at the same time? Pokemon trainer only has one Pokemon out at a time, so I really don't think they need to make them weaker at all. It's not like your damage goes away when you switch, or anything. You can say they are able to switch play styles easily, but you can kind of do that with other characters too. I don't see this as good reason to remove their Down Special.

There are downsides to Rosalina and Ice Climbers. You KO their partner, they're drastically weaker. Especially in the ICs case.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Like how there should be a downside to Ice Climbers being two characters at the same time, or Rosalina and Luma being two characters at the same time? Pokemon trainer only has one Pokemon out at a time, so I really don't think they need to make them weaker at all. It's not like your damage goes away when you switch, or anything. You can say they are able to switch play styles easily, but you can kind of do that with other characters too. I don't see this as good reason to remove their Down Special.

I mean...they do have very obvious downsides (all instances of those character being busted were due to janky unintended exploits) so I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this.

They also aren't a character that effectively have 10 specials in one, we really don't need more. They didn't not give them individual down specials because they couldn't figure out a way to implement switching with any other input, they did it because it's a very clear design choice. I don't get the big deal on losing one move on 3 movesets that can switch between each other, it's a very small loss compared to what we get as a whole.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Like how there should be a downside to Ice Climbers being two characters at the same time, or Rosalina and Luma being two characters at the same time?

This is a terrible comparison and the above two already explained why.

Pokemon trainer only has one Pokemon out at a time, so I really don't think they need to make them weaker at all. It's not like your damage goes away when you switch, or anything. You can say they are able to switch play styles easily, but you can kind of do that with other characters too. I don't see this as good reason to remove their Down Special.

You're highly underestimating the versatility of having access 3 unique characters with entirely different movesets and frame data at all times. Zard now has 2 other characters to cover for his bad MUs in exchange for losing Rock Smash. With such a huge buff there needs to be some sort of drawback. There was a reason PT was given the stamina mechanic in the first place during Brawl after all.

Now that the switching animation is a lot faster I'm personally really excited to see how people end up incorporating it into their games for both offensive and defensive purposes. Anyone who's that upset about losing Rock Smash can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[Leaf_It]

I was a little defensive, and my examples weren't very good. I'm sorry for that. The honest truth is that I want to be able to main Ivysaur, because Bulbasaur was my first starter. Though it might be obvious, when I say want to main Ivysaur, I don't mean Pokemon Trainer, I mean I will not attack at all until I have switched to Ivysaur. I will only play as Ivysaur. So I wanted to have a full move set when I do that. I also wanted anyone else who wanted to main just one of the pokemon to have a full move set. It made sense to also include these as quality of life changes for the rest of the players who want to play as all 3 pokemon. I didn't play Brawl a ton, and I played Project M about as much. However one of the things I liked the most from Project M was that each of the Pokemon were their own characters, and they weren't tied to the other pokemon. I hoped that we could have something like that in an official Smash Game. I think I would have played Project M a lot more if I had been as interested in Smash back then, as I am now.

As of right now, it has been a few days, and I am the sole person to sign the petition. It is clear to me now that I am a minority. I will close the petition, and I won't try to argue this point any more. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, or said anything stupid. I look forward to whatever Super Smash Bros. Ultimate brings us regardless of how they handle the Pokemon Trainer.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm okay with them having full movesets...if they lose the ability to switch mid-battle.

Doesn't really seem fair as it is that Trainer gets almost 3 times as many moves as any other character.

This game didn't merge Sheik or Zero Suit back into their original characters, not sure why it was okay to make these 3 Pokemon all one character again. Feels like it was done more to serve the "EVERYONE IS HERE" narrative than for the actual good of the game.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I was a little defensive, and my examples weren't very good. I'm sorry for that. The honest truth is that I want to be able to main Ivysaur, because Bulbasaur was my first starter. Though it might be obvious, when I say want to main Ivysaur, I don't mean Pokemon Trainer, I mean I will not attack at all until I have switched to Ivysaur. I will only play as Ivysaur. So I wanted to have a full move set when I do that. I also wanted anyone else who wanted to main just one of the pokemon to have a full move set. It made sense to also include these as quality of life changes for the rest of the players who want to play as all 3 pokemon. I didn't play Brawl a ton, and I played Project M about as much. However one of the things I liked the most from Project M was that each of the Pokemon were their own characters, and they weren't tied to the other pokemon. I hoped that we could have something like that in an official Smash Game. I think I would have played Project M a lot more if I had been as interested in Smash back then, as I am now.

As of right now, it has been a few days, and I am the sole person to sign the petition. It is clear to me now that I am a minority. I will close the petition, and I won't try to argue this point any more. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, or said anything stupid. I look forward to whatever Super Smash Bros. Ultimate brings us regardless of how they handle the Pokemon Trainer.

Don't be so hard on yourself, we getcha. No matter how you slice it they could've made it possible to play one of the three Pokemon individually without any switching (especially coming off of 4 with solozard), it still would've likely made PT the ideal way to play the character like how they want. There's still nothing stopping you from playing who you like though, and losing a special isn't the worst (pretend Ivy has a useless down B!), so go ham.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Idk if taunts are the right answer but there needs to be a way to swap between Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard without the set order (Squirtle to Charizard, Ivysaur to Squirtle, Charizard to Ivysaur). Taunts would be the easy answer but it removes the ability to swap characters in the air which is a huge down side. Getting knocked offstage as ivysaur and you are too far to tether grab for instance. I'd like to see something kinda like what they did for Shulk's Monado swapping so you could press left or right to pick the Pokemon you want to swap to.

 

[pupNapoleon]

This would be a very user unfriendly descision. As your control scheme for Pokemon trainer now is dramatically different from all other fighters.

All it would take is hitting Taunt plus another button. Just like Inking shield and B.
Hell, make it Shield and B!

Either way, I think its fair for them to have one less move. If Each pokemon has a slightly greater advantage (meaning, one has higher speed, one flight, etc), it is a three in one character. A good way to balance them now (if not the stamina, thank god), is to give them each one less move.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Either way, I think its fair for them to have one less move. If Each pokemon has a slightly greater advantage (meaning, one has higher speed, one flight, etc), it is a three in one character. A good way to balance them now (if not the stamina, thank god), is to give them each one less move.

That doesn't seem like much of a balance when you're still talking about a single character with almost 3 times the moves at it's disposal.

They should just split them into 3 separate characters at this point. It wouldn't even screw up the character numbering since they ALREADY gave each of them their own number.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

The problem with shield plus b and taunt alternatives is that they can’t be performed in midair. It’s probably not going to change unless customized specials return. But even then it’s a stretch.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I'm not sure if I want to sacrifice the taunts to switch Pokémon. And when you do the side taunt with the Wii Remote and Nunchuck (which you have to press 1 and 2 together) which direction would that count as?

 

[Leaf_It]

A few things....

You can still hit the taunt buttons while in the air, they just don't do anything while in the air. They could easily add the functionality of switching for these commands while in the air. Just because you can't taunt in the air, does mean they would restrict switching in the same way.

I'm not sure if I want to sacrifice the taunts to switch Pokémon. And when you do the side taunt with the Wii Remote and Nunchuck (which you have to press 1 and 2 together) which direction would that count as?

The Switch console only accepts Switch controllers. So individual Joycons, which can act exactly the same as Wii Remotes, but with more buttons, and better sensors, would likely have different, though somewhat similar control scheme. My guess would be either that the direction you move the joycon in would dictate which direction, or it would act the same as switching does now, and just switch to the next Pokémon.

I don't care how they implement it, the point was that you wouldn't be loosing down special. They could tie it to shield and B or pressing the joysticks in, it doesn't matter.

Also, it was pointed out a bit above, but the thing about needing a downside because it's 3 characters in one doesn't really make sense. The rest of their moves are still great, and so it's really not a significant downside to be lacking just the down special. Some characters have moves that aren't very good, and pros literally never use some of these bad moves, but they still use the rest of the character's moves. While this argument can also work against my proposal entirely, it's just a comment that seems really silly to me, because, not having a Down special wasn't a balancing choice, it was just a side effect of them deciding to implement the switching mechanic in that specific way. I'm just saying that there are better ways to implement it, that don't require that each Pokémon has less moves than literally every single other character in the game. (I know they technically have more, because they are 3 characters in one, but I'm referring to when you look at just one of them on it's own.)

This is all just my take on this though, and I'll love Smash Ultimate no matter what. I just wanted to address these things because they bothered me.

 

[Sayabi]

A taunt would be a bad idea. The best thing to avoid rotating through Pokemons would just be a choice just like Shulk's new Monado Arts selection wheel, but only with 2 directions. The thing is, considering switching is now so fast it can be used as an evasion move, I'd like to keep it to the normal rotation when no other directions are inputted not to alter the pace of the game.

Example: I am playing Squirtle, and I press down + B. By doing this, some UI pops up asking me to put the joystick to the left to switch to Charizard, or to the right to Ivysaur. Then, I turn the joystick to the left and release B. I'll switch to Charizard. If I had released B with the joystick on the right, I would've switched to Ivysaur. If I had just released the B button without choosing a side direction (i.e. if the joystick is held down, up, or neutral), I would've switched through the normal rotation, so Ivysaur.

Fast, intuitive, and looks like a mechanic that is already into place through Shulk. What do you all think?

 

[Crawfish]

it's a perfectly fine setback to being able to force your opponent to deal with THREE different match ups in one game. i'm already afraid poke might need to be nerfed judging by how good each character is.

 

[Leaf_It]

A taunt would be a bad idea. The best thing to avoid rotating through Pokemons would just be a choice just like Shulk's new Monado Arts selection wheel, but only with 2 directions. The thing is, considering switching is now so fast it can be used as an evasion move, I'd like to keep it to the normal rotation when no other directions are inputted not to alter the pace of the game.

Example: I am playing Squirtle, and I press down + B. By doing this, some UI pops up asking me to put the joystick to the left to switch to Charizard, or to the right to Ivysaur. Then, I turn the joystick to the left and release B. I'll switch to Charizard. If I had released B with the joystick on the right, I would've switched to Ivysaur. If I had just released the B button without choosing a side direction (i.e. if the joystick is held down, up, or neutral), I would've switched through the normal rotation, so Ivysaur.

Fast, intuitive, and looks like a mechanic that is already into place through Shulk. What do you all think?

This is interesting. I definitely would prefer this to it's current implementation. I would prefer a method that didn't take up a special, but if I can't have that, then I would love this.

it's a perfectly fine setback to being able to force your opponent to deal with THREE different match ups in one game. i'm already afraid poke might need to be nerfed judging by how good each character is.

The point I tried to make above, is that it's not much a setback in the first place. Yes, you are now limited to 1 less ability, but that doesn't actually compensate for having 2 other characters and move sets that you can use whenever you want. If the argument you are going for, is that they need a setback, then they did a very inadequate job of giving them a setback. They still have an advantage that no other character can even come close to having, in the form of 3 very different and unique characters, which all play differently. Having trouble because your too slow? Switch. Having trouble because you're good attacks are stale? Switch. Need a better recovery? Switch. I doubt there's a single bad match up, or situation that you couldn't just switch to a different Pokémon to almost completely negate. The best they can do is balance each Pokémon on it's own, so that none of them are top tier, and the trio will still be so versatile that they'll probably still be higher tier. The loss of a single ability isn't going to fix this, it isn't even going to impact this. This argument irritates me because having less abilities doesn't even do what this very argument is trying to say that it does. The only reason they tied switching to the Down Special, was because they hadn't thought of a better way of implementing it. They couldn't take away Tilts, or Smash Attacks, so they were limited to specials. Down special was the least intrusive, so that was the what they went with, and it honestly was the best special they could have chosen for it. Please stop using this argument.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh, I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't like this particular argument against my suggestion.

 

[Crawfish]

i like the idea of side taunt being used to switch between pokemon but again, i don't see it happening, because they don't need anymore help. we don't know if they didn't think about taunt and said "well poke train doesn't need that" and decided to use down b as the switch because poke trainer doesn't need down b because you already have 3 characters worth of moves and nobody would ask for more right? wrong. people would. and besides, with switch having invincibility and being so quick it's good enough to be it's own move based on that! it's not like a useless wasted input, it can be used offensively and defensively. you don't need 3 more moves and then that as your taunt! that's probably what they thought when deciding this.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

I'm not sure if I want to sacrifice the taunts to switch Pokémon. And when you do the side taunt with the Wii Remote and Nunchuck (which you have to press 1 and 2 together) which direction would that count as?

Wii Remote and Nunchuk isn't compatible but even then you could press C or control pad

And Wii Remote sideways could use the minus button

You're highly underestimating the versatility of having access 3 unique characters with entirely different movesets and frame data at all times. Zard now has 2 other characters to cover for his bad MUs in exchange for losing Rock Smash. With such a huge buff there needs to be some sort of drawback. There was a reason PT was given the stamina mechanic in the first place during Brawl after all.

Now that the switching animation is a lot faster I'm personally really excited to see how people end up incorporating it into their games for both offensive and defensive purposes. Anyone who's that upset about losing Rock Smash can't see the forest for the trees.

Because people used all three characters for PT in one match right?

The problem with shield plus b and taunt alternatives is that they can’t be performed in midair. It’s probably not going to change unless customized specials return. But even then it’s a stretch.

Taunt button in midair switches.

No problem

 

[Misery Brick]

Wii Remote and Nunchuk isn't compatible but even then you could press C or control pad

And Wii Remote sideways could use the minus button



Because people used all three characters for PT in one match right?



Taunt button in midair switches.

No problem

Zero did switch Pokemon when he was playing Mew2King to adapt and play to his situation along with some other people in a couple videos. I think more people stuck with just Ivysaur and Squirtle given they've been gone for quite a bit. Like if I had hands on time, I'd probably do the same unless I desperately wanted to try to win.
Although it would be nice to be able to decide who to switch directly into and to have a down special for each one, it's just one of the hindrances that comes with the nature of the character. He has 3 Pokemon with completely different movesets stuffed into one slot, with the switch basically acting as an instantaneous dodge which even helps both in a fight to continue combos and to get back to your preferred character.
And I also think a problem with removing taunts for utility is that it removes characterization for them. After all, Sakurai said that outside of idles and moves, they're one of the best ways to convey a character's personality. And to remove that kinda takes away the life that the team has tried to instill within the characters.
I personally like how Red/Green were implemented in the game, as it feels faithful to both the core mechanics of Pokemon and the feeling of being a trainer, and through that, they have one less special that keeps the character from having too much of an advantage while staying authentic to the spirit of the concept.

 

[DonkaFjord]

This is interesting. I definitely would prefer this to it's current implementation. I would prefer a method that didn't take up a special, but if I can't have that, then I would love this.

The point I tried to make above, is that it's not much a setback in the first place. Yes, you are now limited to 1 less ability, but that doesn't actually compensate for having 2 other characters and move sets that you can use whenever you want. If the argument you are going for, is that they need a setback, then they did a very inadequate job of giving them a setback. They still have an advantage that no other character can even come close to having, in the form of 3 very different and unique characters, which all play differently. Having trouble because your too slow? Switch. Having trouble because you're good attacks are stale? Switch. Need a better recovery? Switch. I doubt there's a single bad match up, or situation that you couldn't just switch to a different Pokémon to almost completely negate. The best they can do is balance each Pokémon on it's own, so that none of them are top tier, and the trio will still be so versatile that they'll probably still be higher tier. The loss of a single ability isn't going to fix this, it isn't even going to impact this. This argument irritates me because having less abilities doesn't even do what this very argument is trying to say that it does. The only reason they tied switching to the Down Special, was because they hadn't thought of a better way of implementing it. They couldn't take away Tilts, or Smash Attacks, so they were limited to specials. Down special was the least intrusive, so that was the what they went with, and it honestly was the best special they could have chosen for it. Please stop using this argument.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh, I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't like this particular argument against my suggestion.

Still, adding in the additional 3 moves would increase their versatility even if it wasn't drastically changing it... I used to want the taunt switching idea back before Smash 4, but I think that they are fine in this game as it is because they buffed the move. Sure, it isn't a damaging dealing move, but it is quicker and it can be used to avoid certain attacks. Also the added bonus of being usable in the air.

Thematically it fits the Pokémon universe. Calling a Pokémon back and switching them out is one of your main options (also a large part of PT's gimmick) and it can be used so you have a better matchup, avoid certain set ups and attacks, etc.

Remember, Smash is attempting to balance for both the casuals (so nothing too complicated or complex), and competitive (so nothing inherently broken.) I feel like they'd need to make sure it was done in an elegant enough way that casuals wouldn't struggle with it. I'm actually surprised at what they did for inkling's recharging till someone pointed out that (depending on your control set up) you could be using the triggers just as you would in Splatoon 1 and 2.

Switching Pokémon is still a positive utility and only a few characters have positive taunts (and those that do are pretty slow moves meant more to be flashy kills then actually usable in battle.

I've made my peace with it being a special now and the main downside is you have to play PT (or be down a move) instead of the standalone Pokémon.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Also if taunt is switching, how are you gonna communicate that? A new player is faaaar likelier to try a basic input like down B than a taunt input they might have no idea even exists, or realize has an important function unlike any other character. There's no consistency to it.

There's like no reason to to do that than to give each Pokemon an extra move, which isn't necessary.

 

[Novice_Brave]

It's important to keep in mind that characters should be/are balanced largely based on their "ceiling," rather than their floor. I.E. Because, as others have pointed out, Pokémon Trainer is essentially a 3-in-1 character, this gives them an automatic massive potential utility and matchup advantage going into any game. A Pokémon Trainer used to its fullest potential as the character is currently designed, with this 3-in-1 gimmick in mind, would be able to switch between all three characters as the situation calls for it and gains a huge boost to the breadth and depth of their answers for different situations. Since you do have the potential for three(!) completely different movesets with different strengths, self-limiting yourself to one is just you choosing to handicap yourself-- in a sense. That's not to say that I discourage you or anyone who prefers to stick to a single Pokémon from doing so-- play whoever you want! I'm sure you can do great things with just Ivysaur if you dedicate yourself and play smartly. Just know that it's a self-imposed limitation and not one that's encouraged or promoted by the base character design. By personally choosing to not make use of a central component of the character's design, you're lowering their potential ceiling in a way that the game isn't forcing you to, so it would be poor balancing to buff the character as a whole based around the idea that some players may choose to ignore part of their core design.

The removal of stamina already makes single-maining a Pokémon a much more viable option than in Brawl, for sure. Maybe it would be better to have the characters have three separate spots on the CSS and give them each a unique down special without the ability to switch mid-battle, but as the character stands, they have a unique mechanic that offers them potential advantages that have to be balanced somehow -- and the switch mechanic taking up a portion of each Pokémon's moveslot is the most efficient and effective way of creating this balance.

 

[Crazy Hand 2001]

Also if taunt is switching, how are you gonna communicate that? A new player is faaaar likelier to try a basic input like down B than a taunt input they might have no idea even exists, or realize has an important function unlike any other character. There's no consistency to it.

There's like no reason to to do that than to give each Pokemon an extra move, which isn't necessary.

They could just have a tutorial for each character

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Or we could just go with what's been confirmed at E3, and accept that Down B is the Pokémon Change. The only loss here is Charizard's Rock Smash. While if they made the side taunt the change, we would lose three taunts.

 

[SmasherMaster]

I think the Down B makes more sense as well, because in addition to their attack they include in the triple finish, they have four special moves each.