Challonge Match Display - application helping tournaments run faster

[Fizzi]

I just found this and absolutely want to give it a shot in our scene. Any chance a Mac version is incoming? Otherwise I'll have to borrow a laptop.

Unfortunately no Mac support any time soon :\. I was considering developing the app using http://xamarin.com/ so that it could run on phones, tablets, macs, w/e, but the price per month is not really viable for me. I don't make any money off of anything smash related so I'd probably have to start a kickstarter or something.

 

[Samwisely]

Unfortunately no Mac support any time soon :\

Ah, too bad. I'd be very willing to support that if it ever happened, I fully believe in paying people for good work. Until then, looks like I'll be borrowing a laptop for my events.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Unfortunately no Mac support any time soon :\. I was considering developing the app using http://xamarin.com/ so that it could run on phones, tablets, macs, w/e, but the price per month is not really viable for me. I don't make any money off of anything smash related so I'd probably have to start a kickstarter or something.

Count on me to finance anything that is Smash related and has your name on it.

 

[Juggleguy]

Count on me to finance anything that is Smash related and has your name on it.

Things just got real good real fast!

 

[OninO]

I've hit a minor error with this. Auto-assign pending causes additional spurious stations to be generated in the stations list. Here's a screeny of the bug, plus the stations list I was using.

Edit: Additional info, this was a round robin pool.
Edit 2: Definitely an RR problem. Assigning match 1, with players 1 and 6, to station 1 will cause station 1 to be assigned to any instance of those players throughout the whole RR. Choosing another match where player 1 appears, say Code D, round 2, and assigning that match to station 2 will cause station 1 to be freed to the list again.

I'm inferring from this that match assigns are not taking the match code into account properly?

 

[Fizzi]

Finally a bug report! Thank you lol.

RR support is definitely lacking overall. It certainly has not been extensively tested. I did want to implement the following features for RR:
1) Ability to select multiple RR tournaments and deal with them as one tournament (pools)
2) On the display screen, pools would be displayed preferably with information such as pool rankings, matches to be played, etc
3) Also on the dislay screen, if there are too many pools to fit on the screen at once the display would automatically iterate through pages of different pools so players could simply look at the screen and wait for their pool to show up on screen
4) For reporting I was considering bringing back the table format for reporting scores many people are already familiar with

Other suggestions are welcome.

As far as the bug you reported itself, I'll look into it. It might have something to do with the fact that the same player has multiple matches at the same time. If there's a simple way to fix just this issue I can release a hotfix while I work on the full featured RR stuff.

 

[Fizzi]

Actually I would like some community feedback if I can get it. Would people benefit from the RR features I mentioned above? Frankly it's quite a bit of work and I don't have that much time but it does sound to me like it could make running RR pools a lot easier.

 

[_glook]

Actually I would like some community feedback if I can get it. Would people benefit from the RR features I mentioned above? Frankly it's quite a bit of work and I don't have that much time but it does sound to me like it could make running RR pools a lot easier.

If you want community feedback, my bias is toward getting multiple brackets running at once working. I've considered just coding it in myself, but I've never took the first step of actually getting the source code and looking at it.

 

[Fizzi]

If you want community feedback, my bias is toward getting multiple brackets running at once working. I've considered just coding it in myself, but I've never took the first step of actually getting the source code and looking at it.

By that I'm assuming you mean the ability to load, display, and manage different game brackets at the same time yes?

Likely that would also require the ability to make set ups tournament specific as well.

Sounds simple enough.

 

[_glook]

By that I'm assuming you mean the ability to load, display, and manage different game brackets at the same time yes?

Likely that would also require the ability to make set ups tournament specific as well.

Sounds simple enough.

The biggest things for me is when running tournaments with multiple games, such as Melee and SD Remix, a lot of times, the same person will be entered into both brackets. It doesn't necessarily have to be two brackets in the same instance, just some sort of synchronization between brackets.

 

[OninO]

Yeah, I second Glooks feature request. I've thought about this scheduling problem before and even tried to hack up something in Python but never got too far, kept falling down on the data structures because I was too lazy, also got too wrapped up in predictive clash avoidance which would be fiendishly complex. If you could have it such that you can load two tournaments in, assign stations to each tournament (from within the application itself would be best) then assign from the total pool of players (which would automatically take into account clashes).

Pool functionality would be very very nice, but it's easy enough to handle pools as independant mini tournaments with paper match listings or whatever and assign pool captains to them.

The thought strikes me that perhaps predictive clash avoidance wouldn't be as hard as I imagined? Simple prediction based on seed gives you two trees of matches, but then some allocation decision has to be made such that problem players registered for both events (high seeds) have their path delayed in one tree and advanced in the other by the allocation engine. The problem is, from a players perspective, the optimum solution probably involves some sort of alternation by the problem player, i.e. play tourn 1 match, play tourn 2 match etc. Which would be pretty ****ty if you were constantly having to jump back and forth between game types.

I think best practise is probably to avoid scheduling conflicts entirely by running pools/bracket pools in waves, in such a way that no player is playing in both games during the same wave scheduling (as @ Juggleguy already attempts to do I'm sure). The problem isn't really in scheduling to avoid conflicts in parallel brackets, so much as it is to assign pools/bracket pools to avoid conflicts entirely. Top 8's should always be run back-to-back anyway.

 

[Fizzi]

The thought strikes me that perhaps predictive clash avoidance wouldn't be as hard as I imagined? Simple prediction based on seed gives you two trees of matches, but then some allocation decision has to be made such that problem players registered for both events (high seeds) have their path delayed in one tree and advanced in the other by the allocation engine. The problem is, from a players perspective, the optimum solution probably involves some sort of alternation by the problem player, i.e. play tourn 1 match, play tourn 2 match etc. Which would be pretty ****ty if you were constantly having to jump back and forth between game types.

Yeah the optimal method in which to implement this isn't immediately clear to me. I was thinking to simply prioritize matches of players that are in multiple brackets versus players that are in single brackets when it comes to station assignments. Also, when a player is available and he has matches in multiple games, schedule him for the match in the bracket he is in risk of holding up the most (I would need to develop some kind of metric for this and it doesn't seem trivial to me at this time).

Another problem that arises is that unless players are signed up using challonge accounts (which is rare for smash tournaments), there's no guaranteed way for me to know that one player is the same as another in a different bracket. The way I see it I could simply assume that if players have the same name, they are the same person. I don't think this is good enough though, it will probably be required to make a tool for the TO which allows players with same names that are not the same person to be disconnected and players that are registered for two events but don't have exactly the same name to be connected.

Basically it's actually a fair bit of complexity for a feature that may? not be worth it. As you say, the optimal solution from a TO's perspective is to avoid scheduling conflicts to begin with anyway - which, if done right, would make this feature completely useless lol.

 

[Juggleguy]

I agree about string validation being a huge issue with the proposed idea. And also that TOs should fix the problem before it starts (smart wave scheduling).

 

[OninO]

@ Juggleguy How do you usually handle pool generation? Is it algorithmic by seed ordering, perhaps from an excel document? Or is it pure man power?

If it's man power, there might be a lot of scope for some sort of cross tournament pool generation tool? Take a .csv as input, generate a set of pools for two parallel tournaments designed to run in waves and eliminate scheduling conflicts. Would be great if it had secondary rules like "separate players from the same region where possible". Auto-tuned pool sizes for available setup numbers would be a trivial but nice feature.

 

[Juggleguy]

I have mountains of hardcoded Excel documents.

Definitely could use a more robust program that handles wave scheduling. I think UFGT/Combo Breaker/other FGC tourneys have a Python program they use but I haven't been able to buy it from them.

 

[Fizzi]

I have mountains of hardcoded Excel documents.

Definitely could use a more robust program that handles wave scheduling. I think UFGT/Combo Breaker/other FGC tourneys have a Python program they use but I haven't been able to buy it from them.

Yeah this sounds like a much more useful feature than the bracket synchronization discussed previously.

Additionally, if I extended my app scope to also include the tournament registration process as well then it would be easy to know who is the same person. I've considered making a much more thorough tournament handling system. Preferably it would be web based as well. The problem is this enters into the realm of things I have less experience in so it would be a lot of work.

I'll think on it.

 

[Juggleguy]

Yeah this sounds like a much more useful feature than the bracket synchronization discussed previously.

Additionally, if I extended my app scope to also include the tournament registration process as well then it would be easy to know who is the same person. I've considered making a much more thorough tournament handling system. Preferably it would be web based as well. The problem is this enters into the realm of things I have less experience in so it would be a lot of work.

I'll think on it.

Have you considered working with smash.gg on this? They have like 80% of what most TOs need already in place, and it's completely web-based.

 

[Fizzi]

Have you considered working with smash.gg on this? They have like 80% of what most TOs need already in place, and it's completely web-based.

I've considered it but was a little worried about the logistics of such a partnership. I don't know if they'd be interested in my help and I also don't know how much time I would be able to commit to the project.

I'll tweet at them (him? her?) and maybe try to set up a conversation. I do like smash.gg

 

[Juggleguy]

I've considered it but was a little worried about the logistics of such a partnership. I don't know if they'd be interested in my help and I also don't know how much time I would be able to commit to the project.

I'll tweet at them (him? her?) and maybe try to set up a conversation. I do like smash.gg

I have a weekly meeting with them on Google Hangouts. I'll just invite you to the next one

 

[Kadano]

I hosted a local two days ago and this was the first time I actually used this program. Even though there were only ~20 attentants, it helped a lot for scheduling the stream matches.
I have a couple of suggestions, though:

1. Configurable automatic mode (F3 shortcut activates, F4 disables it): automatically schedule available sets to free stations. If multiple stations and multiple sets are available, the highest station in the list (which is assumed to be the stream setup) is assigned to the match that has the lowest player seeding sum (for example the players with seeds 2 and 3 would be picked over 1 and 5 since 5<6). If these are equal, it would be nice to have an option to select between preferring matches with the strongest players (so 1v4 and 2v3 would prefer 1v4 since the first-ranked player is partaking) and preferring matches with assumed-to-be-close sets (so 2v3 would be preferred because the difference is 1, less than 4-1).

2. Easier score entry: Right now, if you want to report a score of 2-1, you need to highlight the 0 of the winner’s score with the mouse, press 2, highlight the 0 of the loser’s score with the mouse and press 1 on the keyboard. It would be nice to have + and − symbols for quick mouse-only scoring.

3. Custom auto-DQs: If a player is reported missing for x minutes, the first match is lost. If he has been reported missing for y minutes, the entire set is lost. (x and y being configurable in the menus.)

4. Keep match history: Within the TO panel, have a button that toggles a window with all the sets that have already been reported. Allow re-opening and editing the score from there.

Also, does anyone know whether Challonge changed their losers bracket system yet so it works the same way as TIO? (Every other round has the losers of the winners side sent to the opposite site in losers)

 

[Fizzi]

I hosted a local two days ago and this was the first time I actually used this program. Even though there were only ~20 attentants, it helped a lot for scheduling the stream matches.
I have a couple of suggestions, though:

1. Configurable automatic mode (F3 shortcut activates, F4 disables it): automatically schedule available sets to free stations. If multiple stations and multiple sets are available, the highest station in the list (which is assumed to be the stream setup) is assigned to the match that has the lowest player seeding sum (for example the players with seeds 2 and 3 would be picked over 1 and 5 since 5<6). If these are equal, it would be nice to have an option to select between preferring matches with the strongest players (so 1v4 and 2v3 would prefer 1v4 since the first-ranked player is partaking) and preferring matches with assumed-to-be-close sets (so 2v3 would be preferred because the difference is 1, less than 4-1).

2. Easier score entry: Right now, if you want to report a score of 2-1, you need to highlight the 0 of the winner’s score with the mouse, press 2, highlight the 0 of the loser’s score with the mouse and press 1 on the keyboard. It would be nice to have + and − symbols for quick mouse-only scoring.

3. Custom auto-DQs: If a player is reported missing for x minutes, the first match is lost. If he has been reported missing for y minutes, the entire set is lost. (x and y being configurable in the menus.)

4. Keep match history: Within the TO panel, have a button that toggles a window with all the sets that have already been reported. Allow re-opening and editing the score from there.

Also, does anyone know whether Challonge changed their losers bracket system yet so it works the same way as TIO? (Every other round has the losers of the winners side sent to the opposite site in losers)

1. This kind of already exists except it requires the TO to disable New Match Option and periodically press F1 to assign available matches. Currently in the example you mentioned, the program prioritizes 1v4 over 2v3 - I can certainly add an option for this. I agree an automatic method would be nice. I didn't put it in because I wasn't sure when the scheduling should be triggered. I suppose matches could be assigned on a periodic basis but it would kind of suck if for example a match is about to end on stream and the program assigns matches and then the stream set up stays idle for like 10 minutes until the next round of scheduling. I could also do it when a stream set up becomes available. I should note that for this kind of scheduling it is nice to have a decent pool of matches so matches get assigned to the proper set ups - that's why the current automatic mode kinda sucks a little because it will assign matches as soon as they become available which probably means the same person will always be on stream. At the same time if you delay scheduling too much then you're slowing down the tournament. Any thoughts?

2. Yea WPF doesn't have a built in control for this else it'd already be in there. I will likely add this in the next version.

3. I'm okay implementing this but I'm not sure how the match loss would be indicated.

4. I can look into this. I think I remember considering a feature like this and it seemed non-trivial for some reason. I also figured people would have better control editing matches from challonge directly.

Thanks for the feedback

 

[ssgoofball]

Awesome will use at next tourney

 

[Cudl]

Every time a match is reported and finished, the station assigned to that match just disappears. I assume this is not supposed to happen and that I am doing something wrong. Any suggestions? Or are the stations supposed to delete themselves after their assigned match has finished?

 

[Cudl]

Every time a match is reported and finished, the station assigned to that match just disappears. I assume this is not supposed to happen and that I am doing something wrong. Any suggestions? Or are the stations supposed to delete themselves after their assigned match has finished?

Never mind! I reset it with a different bracket and now it works properly!

 

[paperfairy]

Is this being actively maintained? I'm running this on an old XP laptop, and the program crashes whenever I try to enter TO mode. Windows XP SP3, if that helps.

 

[Fizzi]

Is this being actively maintained? I'm running this on an old XP laptop, and the program crashes whenever I try to enter TO mode. Windows XP SP3, if that helps.

I am not actively maintaining it. I have other projects occupying all of my free time. Everything is open source though so anyone with the skill could fix bugs. I've also never tested it in XP.

 

[gazugafan]

Thanks for developing this, Fizzi! I've found it infinitely helpful when running local Mortal Kombat X tournaments. I actually recently cloned the repository and started hacking in some new features that I've been wanting. I'm new to C# Windows development, though, so it really is all a bit kludgy. It's buggy and fragile at the moment, so there's more work I'd like to do before releasing anything. Having said that, here are the things I've added...

• A Settings window.
  
• Ability to (optionally) save your Challonge API key and subdomain.
• Manage the station list without using a CSV file.
• And most importantly... a built-in scoreboard feature for use in OBS or other streaming software.

This makes it easy to manage the bracket, station assignments, and stream overlays all from one computer. Now, when players are assigned to the first "Stream" station, the software automatically fills in their names, the current round, and resets their scores to zero. These things are all output to simple txt files that you can use as overlays in OBS or XSplit. The scores can easily be updated using up/down arrow buttons, scrolling the mouse wheel, or just typing. You can also correct the player names and round label if necessary, swap the players (if they sit in the wrong seat at the streaming station), and easily submit the current score at the streaming station (instead of the normal way and having to type the score in again).

We've been using this along with dropbox to synchronize those txt files with the computer that's running OBS and handling the stream. The main commentator sits at the OBS computer and mainly focuses on commentating, while a secondary commentator (or non-commentator) sits at the computer running station management and focuses on keeping the tournament running and updating the scores on the streaming station. It's made the whole process ridiculously simple, as there's no need to keep updating the names and round anymore. You just keep the tournament going like normal, and update the scores on the streaming station.

A couple other neat things about this: The software automatically detects when you're in the winner's grand final, or when you're in the loser's grand final (if the player from the loser's bracket wins and resets the bracket). When you're in the winner's grand final, a (W) or (L) will automatically be appended to the appropriate player's names for display on the stream.

Also, this might not be as useful for smash, but we run our MKX tournaments cross-platform. To handle this, we append an (XB1) or (PS4) to the end of every player's name to tag which console they play on, and we also note which stations are XB1 or PS4. This way, we can easily determine which station to assign players to, and whether or not an adapter will be necessary. The software automatically removes anything in parentheses at the end of a player's name, so those tags don't show up on the stream overlays.

Before I make a release, I want to fix some bugs and stability issues, and I want to make the scoreboard feature optional (so it doesn't take up room in the TO interface if you don't plan on using it). Once that's done, I can send you a pull request if you'd like to take a look and possibly merge the new features. If not, I understand, and will probably make a fork of the project with my additions.

 

[Boofed]

I have a request:

I was part of the Melee community in the past and I'd like to get back into it. However, I'm currently a TO for another video game called "Attack on Titan Tribute Game". I am looking for a solid bracket solution, and I really like what you've made. The problem that we have, though, is we're not a local tournament. We have to run our tournaments online and with an online format. If your application could talk and communicate with other TO's applications and share data over Google Sheets, it would make our job much easier. Do you think something like this is possible?

Thanks!
- Boof

 

[gazugafan]

The changes are done and sent over to Fizzi. I ended up making some usability improvements as well, including buttons to more quickly report a winner, and arrows to quickly adjust scores (or you can use the mouse wheel). While Fizzi looks over my work, I thought I'd post some screenshots to get the hype going :D

Putting them in a spoiler section so as to not take up an obnoxious amount of space...

Spoiler: Show Screenshots

 

[Fizzi]

I have a request:

I was part of the Melee community in the past and I'd like to get back into it. However, I'm currently a TO for another video game called "Attack on Titan Tribute Game". I am looking for a solid bracket solution, and I really like what you've made. The problem that we have, though, is we're not a local tournament. We have to run our tournaments online and with an online format. If your application could talk and communicate with other TO's applications and share data over Google Sheets, it would make our job much easier. Do you think something like this is possible?

Thanks!
- Boof

Actually the software is already written such that if multiple people open the same tournament from different instances of the program, everything stays synchronized.

 

[Jaxas]

Wow, this program is gonna make things so much easier. Fizzi and gazugafan , you guys rock.

 

[gazugafan]

Thanks for merging my changes in, Fizzi! Hope everyone finds them as useful as I do :D

 

[tjgeorgen]

Thanks for merging my changes in, Fizzi! Hope everyone finds them as useful as I do :D

The new changes look amazing. Being able to output names straight from Challonge to files for loading into stream overlays is an absolute killer feature. This + dropbox syncing would take tons of trouble out of getting the names right on stream. Is there any possibility of allowing output for multiple stream or recording PCs? This could go a long way in allowing for easier updating of multiple recording setups. I suppose the problem of controller ports still exists, but it would still be a huge help. Thanks!

 

[gazugafan]

The new changes look amazing. Being able to output names straight from Challonge to files for loading into stream overlays is an absolute killer feature. This + dropbox syncing would take tons of trouble out of getting the names right on stream. Is there any possibility of allowing output for multiple stream or recording PCs? This could go a long way in allowing for easier updating of multiple recording setups. I suppose the problem of controller ports still exists, but it would still be a huge help. Thanks!

It's a great idea, but probably more work than I'd like to put into it for now at least. I wonder what the UI would look like for that? Stack multiple scoreboard areas on top of each other vertically? Make the scoreboard area tabbed? I almost think you'd want to get rid of the scoreboard area at the top and add score columns and a submit score column to the regular grid. This would also reduce the number of clicks necessary to report scores for the other stations. And in any case, output the txt files to a subfolder named after the station.

Anyone interested in splitting the work on a web-based tournament management application that integrates these features? I've got a featureset, mockups, and a great domain already. Just don't want to take it all on myself :D

 

[Binkie]

i really like the new update with scoreboard but is it also possible to save the score in xml format instead of txt?
So i can use it for animated scoreboards?

 

[gazugafan]

Yeah that should be easy enough. I'll probably make another update sooner than later with a few other minor things as well. Until then, you could always modify your animation process to monitor multiple txt files instead of one xml file.

 

[ElRudo]

I'm not sure you have a way to tell how many people are using your application, so I just drop by to say I am and I find it amazing.

Edit (I have more things to say)

Suggestion: to expand the "New Match Action: Auto Assign" function so that it also assigns/prioritizes "old" pending matches that were there before (because there was no TV available when they "spawned") over the actual "new" matches.

I'm guessing something like that is already planned. I don't know what is the technical difficulty behind it.

Edit(2)
Actually some TOs may want to un-assign a match and not want it auto assigned later (to reserve it for stream for an example) so I understand the hesitation. Some interesting ideas:
-There could be a HIDDEN VALUE telling if the match was manually unassigned and then this match would not automatically assigend later.
-The TO could click on the "Code" and switch the status to "No Auto-Assign". This would not overcharge the GUI and could avoid some confusion with a hidden value.
-Make the function to "Auto assign "old" Pending Matches" different from the already existent one for new matches.

To answer the question "when to check if setups are available for "old" pending matches:
Everytime a match ends.

I'm trying to develop my own resources for TOing so I understand this is more easily said than done and requires effort without monetary benefit, which I highly adimre.

Love from Quebec City.

 

[gazugafan]

I'm not sure you have a way to tell how many people are using your application, so I just drop by to say I am and I find it amazing.

Edit (I have more things to say)

Suggestion: to expand the "New Match Action: Auto Assign" function so that it also assigns/prioritizes "old" pending matches that were there before (because there was no TV available when they "spawned") over the actual "new" matches.

I'm guessing something like that is already planned. I don't know what is the technical difficulty behind it.

Edit(2)
Actually some TOs may want to un-assign a match and not want it auto assigned later (to reserve it for stream for an example) so I understand the hesitation. Some interesting ideas:
-There could be a HIDDEN VALUE telling if the match was manually unassigned and then this match would not automatically assigend later.
-The TO could click on the "Code" and switch the status to "No Auto-Assign". This would not overcharge the GUI and could avoid some confusion with a hidden value.
-Make the function to "Auto assign "old" Pending Matches" different from the already existent one for new matches.

To answer the question "when to check if setups are available for "old" pending matches:
Everytime a match ends.

I'm trying to develop my own resources for TOing so I understand this is more easily said than done and requires effort without monetary benefit, which I highly adimre.

Love from Quebec City.

I actually don't use the auto-assign features at all, so they aren't particularly interesting for me to work on. You say you're trying to develop your own resources, though. If you're a programmer, this is open source on github, and Visual Studio is free. Give it a download and make the changes yourself :D

 

[Fizzi]

I'm not sure you have a way to tell how many people are using your application, so I just drop by to say I am and I find it amazing.

Edit (I have more things to say)

Suggestion: to expand the "New Match Action: Auto Assign" function so that it also assigns/prioritizes "old" pending matches that were there before (because there was no TV available when they "spawned") over the actual "new" matches.

I'm guessing something like that is already planned. I don't know what is the technical difficulty behind it.

Edit(2)
Actually some TOs may want to un-assign a match and not want it auto assigned later (to reserve it for stream for an example) so I understand the hesitation. Some interesting ideas:
-There could be a HIDDEN VALUE telling if the match was manually unassigned and then this match would not automatically assigend later.
-The TO could click on the "Code" and switch the status to "No Auto-Assign". This would not overcharge the GUI and could avoid some confusion with a hidden value.
-Make the function to "Auto assign "old" Pending Matches" different from the already existent one for new matches.

To answer the question "when to check if setups are available for "old" pending matches:
Everytime a match ends.

I'm trying to develop my own resources for TOing so I understand this is more easily said than done and requires effort without monetary benefit, which I highly adimre.

Love from Quebec City.

The auto-assign feature already prioritizes matches that are the furthest behind in the tournament (except for stream and recording set ups). Seems to me like prioritizing "old" matches would be redundant and prioritizing "behind" matches is more important in almost every scenario.

This post explains the auto-assign stuff more thoroughly: http://smashboards.com/threads/chal...-tournaments-run-faster.358186/#post-17467550

Here's an excerpt:
Auto-Assign Pending (F1)

This is the power action of the application. It will intelligently determine, based on the available matches and stations, how to assign the matches. Matches with low combined seed numbers will be prioritized for Streaming and Recording stations within reason. If the high level matches are too far ahead of the rest of the tournament, they will be ignored for the time being in order to ensure the tournament continues to run smoothly. Premium, Standard, and Backup stations will strictly prioritize matches that are the furthest behind in the tournament.

I agree though that being able to mark specific matches to not be auto-assigned would be a good feature... Unfortunately I'm still prioritizing other projects :\.

 

[gazugafan]

More changes incoming!
XML scoreboard output Binkie
Added an End Tournament button
Top 4 results displayed after a tournament ends, with a nice little animation too.