Category Character Tier Lists

[Surri-Sama]

I like using my bombs to keep people from the edge as link.

As ness i almost always get edge guarded...but with link i can recover from time to time.

I think they both suck pretty bad but links has more options because his UpB isn't so linear.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

dont wanna discuss again about ness vs link recoveries, its pointless, both are terrible and thats about it

That's right!!!
Even I rather Link's recovery.
But however, this is an endless discussion.

 

[Sempiternity]

okbro, just play one of the A-tier people in that thread, and maybe then you'll see the light.

 

[okisme]

what im trying to say is, recover with link against an a-tier person, am i making sense at all?

 

[th3kuzinator]

If you recover against an a tier person...
lets make it s tier...
lets make it boomfan.

recovering against boomfan with link 5% success rate
recovering against boomfan with ness 0.5% success rate

 

[Sempiternity]

In high-level competition, I see Link recover much more often than Ness.

 

[dch111]

how do i put this.. ness still has more options over link, theres plenty of mindgames involved in ness' recovery, whereas link is the samething over and over and over again.

the downward angle is not that easy to ledgehop on in the heat of a match because he fastfalled just before doing the up b and can do it quick enough...

all im trying to say is, ness can get hit most of the time, but so can link.

edit:
a downward angled pk thunder 2 on the stage has no lag, but even ill say thats 99% of the time a bad option, but its still an option that link doesnt have.

if a good ness could recover at a horizontal angle thats just another option ness has over link, and landing on the stage at that angle would have no lag

I get what you mean, but the unique problem with Ness is that even if he had a million options, he always tells his opponent which option he is choosing. In the time it takes the PK Thunder to loop around, the opponent has enough time to respond appropriately (dash pivot edgehog is too good.)

When he doesn't have to use his PKT2, then Ness is hampered by his slow midair jump and the disadvantage of DJC (cutting off his recovery if he wants any sort of preemptive defense.)

Link's recovery isn't really the same thing over and over again, but even if it was, it's still safer than Ness's. And from up close, his options are much better than Ness's, I don't think anyone can deny that.

If the theory doesn't convince you, then as kuzinator and sempiternity have noted, match evidence shows that Link recovers more often than Ness at top level play. Unless they're doing something wrong, and you have a better method--in which case you should really show us in battle

 

[okisme]

what about an s tier player like isai who decides to practice his ness recovery and perfects his recovery completely.

i did a horizontal pk thunder recovery with ness and i hit the ledge because i was too close and still grabbed onto the ledge, i think ill have to make a video or something showing all of ness' options and doing them perfectly, you can hit the ledge from ANY angle, but this horizontal one seems like its the best one...

heres another question, since boom and isai are above everyone else, im pretty sure isai and boom can recover with ness and out mindgame the other player, yet if they try the same with link its just the same exact thing each and everytime... ledgehog anyone?

i have yet to see a perfect ness recover, maybe on console there are better ness' around.

in the meantime can anyone tell me a good video recording software so i can make an amateur video of me trying to recover with ness on some angles?

 

[dandan]

this is just an opinion based argument, and thus, truly fruitless, most people do not think like you, but it seems no one is going to budge and change their opinions, and this argument keeps going back and forth.

and btw, if you mention perfecting ness's recovery, you can say the same about doing that for link's bomb trick and getting perfect DI = adding amazing length to his recovery while still being able to defend himself unlike ness.

for a good recording program, use fraps (i would recommend using the kaillera playback feature to record than capturing the playback with fraps, thus not interfering you while you try to do what you want).

 

[th3kuzinator]

He is just being ignorant about the subject. He seems to feel that once ness' recovery is perfected, it is invincible, which is still really is not.

 

[dandan]

i would say persistent and not ignorant, but our time of telling one new guy after another (all with 1 post) why ness's recovery is sub par has dulled our spirits.
he actually has surprising amount of knowledge compared to the usual person who asks that question and can bring some good points, even though it does not really matter in the long run, both of them suck at recoveries (ness and link that is), and good luck recovering with ness, that is all i can say (i do not seem to share that luck though).

 

[th3kuzinator]

I am not saying he is dumb/troll. He makes a few understandable points, but all of these points are ambiguous and he keeps making them over and over again when we tell him its no use.

He says that ness has more options --> we tell him that all of the options are just as predictable, while link's few options are sometimes hard to defend against --> he just tells us "but you dont understand, ness has more options."

I did not mind it the first few times, but I just dont want to re explain it again and again. I do agree that other people coming in asking the same question has dulled my appetite for debating this topic.

 

[dch111]

heres another question, since boom and isai are above everyone else, im pretty sure isai and boom can recover with ness and out mindgame the other player, yet if they try the same with link its just the same exact thing each and everytime... ledgehog anyone?

I think you're picturing Link recovering from a long distance every time. Recovery includes every instance of being knocked off the edge by the opponent--even in the cases where you have low percent and are only sent two feet off the edge. In those close cases, Link clearly has the safer recovery with his upb range protecting him.

From a distance, true, an edgehog almost always ends Link, but I'd argue that the same goes for Ness since his PKT2 takes such a long time and is weak toward the end...

 

[asianaussie]

It almost always ends him, but use projectiles while recovering mario-style and its sort of better...lol...

hey guys if link and ness don't have to recover they're top tier yessssssss

In seriousness, Ness has a lot of options, but they're all sub-par, as they are all slow and all have specific counters. Link only has a few options, none of which are great. Both recoveries suck, it's just that Link can often recover when knocked off at low-percent, while Ness has trouble recovering at all.

 

[NixxxoN]

In high-level competition, I see Link recover much more often than Ness.

Providing Link can reach the ledge of course

If you send Link far away enough, he simply can't reach. Then if you send Ness at the same distance, he still has chances because he can reach

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ness has the same chance no matter where he is off the stage...very poor

Link when close can at least jump the gun and hope the UpB will catch their foe and knock them away. (if he is close to the edge)

As a pikachu main...i simply follow ness off the edge and eat that PK thunder...try to recover without that (probably better just to do a Nair but..owell )

 

[dandan]

Ness has the same chance no matter where he is off the stage...very poor

Link when close can at least jump the gun and hope the UpB will catch their foe and knock them away. (if he is close to the edge)

As a pikachu main...i simply follow ness off the edge and eat that PK thunder...try to recover without that (probably better just to do a Nair but..owell )

combine them and nair the pk thunder

 

[Surri-Sama]

haha thats salt to the wound. If you manage to steal the PK thunder away ...just as it comes out from ness' head, with a Nair...without giving him back his 3rd jump xD

 

[okisme]

not trying to start the argument up again but that is avoidable most of the time.

besides doesnt pikachu edgeguard everyone extremely well?

 

[dandan]

not trying to start the argument up again but that is avoidable most of the time.

besides doesnt pikachu edgeguard everyone extremely well?

pikachu was just made to gimp ness, imo, if you miss a gimp as pika vs ness, you should sd.

 

[Surri-Sama]

not trying to start the argument up again but that is avoidable most of the time.

besides doesnt pikachu edgeguard everyone extremely well?

The only way to avoid it, is to FF and come from under the stage / up the wall.

Unless you can sweet spot Ness' UpB (which I've seen NO ONE able to do consistently) You'll just be poked back off the edge...or lose a stock due to some spike thats waiting for you...or any other general edge guarding strategy

Pikachu does edge guard well. But it is not hard with any char to force ness lower then he wants to be...then pick him off on the way up.

 

[okisme]

ness' recovery is easy to interpret with all chars, and pikachu can edgeguard all chars well

 

[The Star King]

The only way to avoid it, is to FF and come from under the stage / up the wall.

Unless you can sweet spot Ness' UpB (which I've seen NO ONE able to do consistently) You'll just be poked back off the edge...or lose a stock due to some spike thats waiting for you...or any other general edge guarding strategy.

Sweet-spotting from below gives the opponent like 5 million years to edgehog.

 

[Sempiternity]

I'd hardly even call it sweet-spotting anyway. The way I see it, Ness can only sweet spot from horizontal to above the stage.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Tis tue, he cannot truly sweetspot for below.

Besides the fact that ness needs to be over the top of his slow, lengthy arch, most characters have plenty of moves that hit below the ledge.

That, your you can just fall off and nair and the process repeats itself.

All I am saying is that if both characters are within recovering range physically (they have enough actual distance), link will make it back more than ness.

Of course link has bad distance. But when he can make it back, he sometimes does.

 

[Skrlx]

just try to not get thrown out of the stage as ness

 

[th3kuzinator]

wise words indeed

 

[Surri-Sama]

Sweet-spotting from below gives the opponent like 5 million years to edgehog.

Yeah like i said its the only option if you dont wanna get gimped quickly by any char with a decent recovery though

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

just try to not get thrown out of the stage as ness

Yes!
Throw out = Death.
as simple as it sounds

Spoiler

sound... if you read it loud of course...

 

[Fireblaster]

In every single matchup, Ness is edgeguarded far more than Link. The only characters that could have a better time edgeguarding Link over Ness are Link, Ness, and Kirby and this is debatable.

Ness being past the edge regardless of distance = abysmal chance of recovery
Link being far past the edge = impossible chance of recovery
Link being not that far past the edge = possible chance of recovery

Having a 20% chance of recovering, 25% of the time, (5%) is better than having a 2% chance of recovering, 100% of the time (2%). I'd like to quote DCH111

edgeguarding ness's recovery is one of the few things that are actually solved in this game.

The recovery-edgeguard aspect of every other character basically comes down to a slightly more complex and unbalanced form of rock paper scissors. Ness's recovery comes down to a game of rock paper scissors where all Ness has is paper and the other player will sometimes lose because he tripped while throwing out scissors.

 

[Battlecow]

In every single matchup, Ness is edgeguarded far more than Link. The only characters that could have a better time edgeguarding Link over Ness are Link, Ness, and Kirby and this is debatable.

Ness being past the edge regardless of distance = abysmal chance of recovery
Link being far past the edge = impossible chance of recovery
Link being not that far past the edge = possible chance of recovery

Having a 20% chance of recovering, 25% of the time, (5%) is better than having a 2% chance of recovering, 100% of the time (2%). I'd like to quote DCH111



The recovery-edgeguard aspect of every other character basically comes down to a slightly more complex and unbalanced form of rock paper scissors. Ness's recovery comes down to a game of rock paper scissors where all Ness has is paper and the other player will sometimes lose because he tripped while throwing out scissors.

I lol'd

You makee good pointee.

 

[okisme]

the percentages are way off but ok. the downward angled up b with ness isnt that hard to do either, and i use keyboard..

another thing to consider is the fact that console and online smash are different too, 5 frames of lag are unnoticeable to the human eye but make a huge difference especially for ness

 

[The Star King]

Yeah, without 5 frames of delay the player is edgeguarding Ness is even less likely to mess up.

If Ness makes it back on the stage, it was probably caused by the edgeguarder's error.

 

[Fireblaster]

the percentages are way off but ok. the downward angled up b with ness isnt that hard to do either, and i use keyboard..

another thing to consider is the fact that console and online smash are different too, 5 frames of lag are unnoticeable to the human eye but make a huge difference especially for ness

Let me save everyone the pain and trouble tell you that you're just plain wrong. 5 frames of lag are unnoticeable to the human eye? You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[asianaussie]

lol

once you play for a while (you don't even have to get good) you'll be unable to play 5 frames without noticing the difference between that and console XD

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

lol

once you play for a while (you don't even have to get good) you'll be unable to play 5 frames without noticing the difference between that and console XD

That's right.
even 2 frames delay is noticeable for me, and I'm not gonna even talk about 5

 

[Surri-Sama]

Most of us played in 7 frames in 06-07 lol

we survived!

but yeah less frames = easier to edge guard ness. His recovery isn't really going to depend on lower frames to work thats for sure...

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

it was 8 frames surri lol

 

[Surri-Sama]

Haha ****...even worse

I dont know why i remember 7 o.o;;

 

[ballin4life]

1 frame is noticeable. I have a TV that lags about 1 frame and if I switch from that to my 0 frame TV I can tell the difference.