Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

So, I'm trying to further understand my advantages of stage positioning and utilizing my character's strengths. With this in mind against a Falcon in friendlies (the matchup I have the most understanding in atm), I find that I express myself to culminate all I learned with Marth's rules, such as making my swings count and strong pressure game especially at the corner. This is because not only do I know Marth's capabilities, but I know Falcon's options as well. At some point, I was so engrossed in our matches that I was effortlessly able to 4-stock him on Dreamland despite us clearly being relatively evenly matched in our previous games. No cheap gimps, clean neutral and punish game to seal the deal.

However, I still have holes which I would like clarified. As I understand, fair is amazing at pressuring Falcon at the corner. However, often Falcon is shielding and would opt to roll after I late fair. I try to punish it on reaction by grab but I'm too late as he regains center stage or hits me. Do you believe that it's possible to react to punish the roll after the fair (and I just have poor reaction time), or is this what you mean by waiting and punishing escape/panic options. Additionally, is this fair pressure something I can do safely to other characters like Fox/Falco?

Also, I'm still trying to internalize what you said earlier with "wait to not swing than to try and find good ways to swing and approach."
Are these scenarios you're referring to?
https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?t=2m31s
https://youtu.be/f8yKWtB2nOg?t=2m5s
If not, would you not mind giving a visual demonstration of waiting paying off? Doesn't have to be specifically the falcon mu.

 

[Blatant J]

Do you think a big problem with mid/low level player is difficulty in picking "scary" options, for instance, some of the foxes I play like to WD down when challenging my landing and whiff punish the falling fair, I know they will do this sometimes but I still struggle to land without throwing out a hitbox.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You should prac

So, I'm trying to further understand my advantages of stage positioning and utilizing my character's strengths. With this in mind against a Falcon in friendlies (the matchup I have the most understanding in atm), I find that I express myself to culminate all I learned with Marth's rules, such as making my swings count and strong pressure game especially at the corner. This is because not only do I know Marth's capabilities, but I know Falcon's options as well. At some point, I was so engrossed in our matches that I was effortlessly able to 4-stock him on Dreamland despite us clearly being relatively evenly matched in our previous games. No cheap gimps, clean neutral and punish game to seal the deal.

However, I still have holes which I would like clarified. As I understand, fair is amazing at pressuring Falcon at the corner. However, often Falcon is shielding and would opt to roll after I late fair. I try to punish it on reaction by grab but I'm too late as he regains center stage or hits me. Do you believe that it's possible to react to punish the roll after the fair (and I just have poor reaction time), or is this what you mean by waiting and punishing escape/panic options. Additionally, is this fair pressure something I can do safely to other characters like Fox/Falco?

Also, I'm still trying to internalize what you said earlier with "wait to not swing than to try and find good ways to swing and approach."
Are these scenarios you're referring to?
https://youtu.be/jrRtAg3QOn8?t=2m31s
https://youtu.be/f8yKWtB2nOg?t=2m5s
If not, would you not mind giving a visual demonstration of waiting paying off? Doesn't have to be specifically the falcon mu.

You should practice the situation/not move immediately after the Fair because that roll in should be VERY easy to punish on late Fair. Fair is also pretty safe on shield against spacies, especially when spaced and very especially when late.

Yeah I'd say those are some decent examples.

Do you think a big problem with mid/low level player is difficulty in picking "scary" options, for instance, some of the foxes I play like to WD down when challenging my landing and whiff punish the falling fair, I know they will do this sometimes but I still struggle to land without throwing out a hitbox.

Yep I'd say that's an issue. Stuff like panic rolls or falling aerials you have to learn to do other things instead. It's a good way to overcome your own fears in some respect.

 

[Silmeria]

Hey pp, after finally sitting down and practicing intent, how my opponent can react to my movement, or some mix-ups i could do i after i establish a threat. And trying to internalize and understand what each movement i do could mean. After a couple of days of just constant practice and studying, i started realizing some patterns in top players that I've never noticed before, i realized that just a simple dash could carry a lot of weight, and realized how crazy you and all the other top players are, and it makes me wanna get really good at this game. It's so crazy how just practicing such simple stuff, could give you a new perspective in how to look at things.

Anyways, i have a question regarding intent and short dash dances, i saw a set where PPU was on the ground under the left platform, while his opponent was on the right platform, PPU does a dash in to center stage to bait the opponent to fall down with an aerial, and then he quickly dashes back under the platform and uses a short dash dance to wait. I feel like each short dash didn't have a purpose, but the dash dance itself did, if that makes sense.

You said previously that to start off understanding movement you should do two dashes with intent and then do an action, and think how the opponent would react. Do you say that just to get ppl to start thinking of the purpose behind their movement? and is it fine to do what PPU did with a short dd where he used it just to wait? I'm honestly struggling trying to find meaning behind such short dashes.

Anyways, sorry for such a long post.

 

[Kopaka]

i realized that just a simple dash could carry a lot of weight, and realized how crazy you and all the other top players are, and it makes me wanna get really good at this game. It's so crazy how just practicing such simple stuff, could give you a new perspective in how to look at things.
=

yesssssssssssssss yes yes yes yes. also yes!

Dr Peepee Do you think that trying to play matchups so deliberately under the rules people speak of the matchup that one could be easily exploited? Or that one could be only looking to position themselves in places where they could only get moves out that they think fall only under these rules of matchups? I think for awhile I was trying so hard to only use for example wavedash dtilt against Climbers or Sheik or Samus that it would make me stale and good people would catch on. I'm just trying to get more silly and free myself up a bit and not think solely in strict terms like I GOTTA DO ONLY X AND Y 4EVER to win. Under that thinking it would make me tense up and if I were to lose I'd feel like I'd have nothing at all I could do since I'd be losing while doing what I thought was the only way to play matchups, not fun. I just wanna get to a place where I can get good with all my tools basically : p

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey pp, after finally sitting down and practicing intent, how my opponent can react to my movement, or some mix-ups i could do i after i establish a threat. And trying to internalize and understand what each movement i do could mean. After a couple of days of just constant practice and studying, i started realizing some patterns in top players that I've never noticed before, i realized that just a simple dash could carry a lot of weight, and realized how crazy you and all the other top players are, and it makes me wanna get really good at this game. It's so crazy how just practicing such simple stuff, could give you a new perspective in how to look at things.

Anyways, i have a question regarding intent and short dash dances, i saw a set where PPU was on the ground under the left platform, while his opponent was on the right platform, PPU does a dash in to center stage to bait the opponent to fall down with an aerial, and then he quickly dashes back under the platform and uses a short dash dance to wait. I feel like each short dash didn't have a purpose, but the dash dance itself did, if that makes sense.

You said previously that to start off understanding movement you should do two dashes with intent and then do an action, and think how the opponent would react. Do you say that just to get ppl to start thinking of the purpose behind their movement? and is it fine to do what PPU did with a short dd where he used it just to wait? I'm honestly struggling trying to find meaning behind such short dashes.

Anyways, sorry for such a long post.

Hey great I'm glad you are seeing the possibilities! That means my explanations and your executions are working very well and I'm happy for that =)

For your PPU question, you will struggle to find many players outside of the top 6, and often within it that use every dash economically. This makes teaching using examples hard. However, you are very right that most DDs are used for general purposes very well and you can make use of that with most strong players. And also you'll be able to see when some dashes have purpose and when some don't, so if you can't find any with purpose or you think the purpose isn't all there then just explain it as best as you can and think of how you could do things differently and move on.

yesssssssssssssss yes yes yes yes. also yes!

Dr Peepee Do you think that trying to play matchups so deliberately under the rules people speak of the matchup that one could be easily exploited? Or that one could be only looking to position themselves in places where they could only get moves out that they think fall only under these rules of matchups? I think for awhile I was trying so hard to only use for example wavedash dtilt against Climbers or Sheik or Samus that it would make me stale and good people would catch on. I'm just trying to get more silly and free myself up a bit and not think solely in strict terms like I GOTTA DO ONLY X AND Y 4EVER to win. Under that thinking it would make me tense up and if I were to lose I'd feel like I'd have nothing at all I could do since I'd be losing while doing what I thought was the only way to play matchups, not fun. I just wanna get to a place where I can get good with all my tools basically : p

Even within basic matchup thinking, there is always recommendations to change between strong tools. Fair and Dtilt vs ICs and how to use them(WD vs dash vs walk vs using one after the other) is already a lot. The idea you NEED to WD in Dtilt is a much bigger problem than the tool being good itself, I think.

To speak about your question directly, rules are constraining until you go deeply into them. When you fully understand the interplay between those options I mentioned and the options individually then the rules become things to swing at your opponent instead of having them swung at you. Additionally, when you go deep enough you begin to learn the exceptions to the rules. I'm sure you know some already. These exceptions could come through positional understanding or conditioning or the opponents' own style or some combination, etc. Regardless, you can't have expression without a foundation, and you can't combine all good ways to do things without first internalizing those ways. So I wouldn't worry about the rules so much right now. Marth as a character tends to do very well with following the rules anyway and tends to punish more for breaking them, so while I do encourage you to experiment and break rules when you want, please keep in mind that you won't be punished if you can apply them intelligently with him.

 

[Kopaka]

For your PPU question, you will struggle to find many players outside of the top 6, and often within it that use every dash economically. This makes teaching using examples hard. However, you are very right that most DDs are used for general purposes very well and you can make use of that with most strong players. And also you'll be able to see when some dashes have purpose and when some don't, so if you can't find any with purpose or you think the purpose isn't all there then just explain it as best as you can and think of how you could do things differently and move on.

https://youtu.be/DvWzayvkiWY?t=40 (an example i want to use not as to put ppu on blast but just because this clip came to mind). "you will struggle to find many players outside of the top 6, and often within it that use every dash economically." this is kind of reassuring in a way because some people in this thread have expressed frustration in learning how to make every input have intention. It seems like a testament to how one could climb the ranks high without spending much time learning this. In the clip PPU dash dances very tightly in place and it would be hard to find decisions with every one of those dashes in quick succession, but it does seem to have a general purpose. This does not have to be limited to Marth or any specific player in the Top 100 or Top 50 or even Top 6 as there's probably too many examples to list of movement similar. I think what I'm trying to say is that apparently one could get very good at the game without spending that much time learning economic movement? I do remember awhile back you mentioned this or something really similar being "one of the hardest things one can learn in the game"

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I'm trying to dance around saying it a bit, but if you learn this way you can set yourself on a pretty continuous growth path that almost none have access to. It is really difficult and often counter to "fun" at least initially. However, it's extremely rewarding and in my opinion more fun to go deeply into Melee and understand more completely why something happens. Well to get right to it: yes no one should be hard on themselves about this because it's not understood much at all even at the top. Heck, there are some serious gaps in my own understanding that I cannot wait to begin addressing.

Also to quickly touch on very quick DDs: I'm not even sure it's possible to have intent for each dash when you're going really fast but only having a general intent. This leads to some interesting questions like "where is the cutoff point?" "can you train to get a slightly faster one while still being entirely intentional?" And of course, even without perfect specific intent you still need to keep really quick DDs because the small space shifts and the overall tempo shift is very useful. So in this way we might not necessarily fault PPU here.

 

[Kopaka]

Yeah I'm trying to dance around saying it a bit, but if you learn this way you can set yourself on a pretty continuous growth path that almost none have access to. It is really difficult and often counter to "fun" at least initially. However, it's extremely rewarding and in my opinion more fun to go deeply into Melee and understand more completely why something happens. Well to get right to it: yes no one should be hard on themselves about this because it's not understood much at all even at the top. Heck, there are some serious gaps in my own understanding that I cannot wait to begin addressing.

Also to quickly touch on very quick DDs: I'm not even sure it's possible to have intent for each dash when you're going really fast but only having a general intent. This leads to some interesting questions like "where is the cutoff point?" "can you train to get a slightly faster one while still being entirely intentional?" And of course, even without perfect specific intent you still need to keep really quick DDs because the small space shifts and the overall tempo shift is very useful. So in this way we might not necessarily fault PPU here.

Yeah I was trying to not say that PPU was at fault at all haha so glad you see that too. "It is really difficult and often counter to "fun" at least initially. " I started diving into it but I noticed today that I had stopped what I was doing in the last 3 weeks or so because of that initial fun cutoff so it takes discipline too. Plus my problem has been comparing myself to others who aren't doing this kind of practice and having success but that's my own problem that I'll take care of. But it doesn't have to not be fun too like you said. It was fun like I mentioned before how rewarding it can be to actually understand what you're doing and get hits off of it, way more satisfactory than having opponents run into your moves.

edit: it's kind of the same/ties into how I was taught to learn th e game by asking "why am I doing x here to edge guard/combo/etc" except a bit more indepth in neutral

edit 2: I can imagine a long time of having practiced this could set oneself up for being able to play the game for a very long time at a great level

 

[Blatant J]

Do you implement game theory ideas into your play? For instance, if you upthrow a spacie onto a platform and you are forced to read their tech do you think about how if they were to tech roll inwards and you dont cover it, they would be in a better position (for them) than if they tech rolled out and you failed to cover that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I do think about that type of thing and will often opt for either punishing them super hard for one option or taking small damage/positioning and that alternation lets me feel in control of scenarios more often.

 

[lokt]

https://youtu.be/tHwoB3ujnps?t=10m25s

Do you do the fh nair on the platform on purpose as a vertical mixup? It works out pretty nicely for you to come down with fair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That was a complete tech accident lol I would never FH Nair in pure neutral against Puff. Fair like you said could be better but I'd rather get under her with it.

 

[Check5]

She's cute isn't she?

 

[Clel42]

I have a question about the following quote from Inner Game of Tennis. It's the part concerning the woman who got better by not thinking of the place on the racket to hit the ball with, but look at the seams of the ball.

"During the last set of balls, Self 1 was fully occupied in watching the seams of the ball. As a result, Self 2 was able to do its own thing unimpaired, and it proved to be pretty good at it"

What would you say the melee equivalent of watching the seams of the ball be? Focusing on keeping track/watching your opponent? Or would it be, say, focusing on how far say your sword can currently reach? Something else?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Cactus has said before watching his own characters' feet helped him focus. Maybe that or watching the opponent character, or something like a Falco laser. It may have to be something you create, such as a reaction to a certain action you do. So if you dashed in, maybe your "seams" are their response movements.

 

[Blatant J]

Does wavedash back become more valuable relative to dashback when you have more stage to expend/have them cornered? I find that if they read the dashback they end up chasing me and im stuck in run with my back turned and suddenly I feel the disadvantaged one. On the other hand if they read the wdb they cant really punish it as easily since you maintain your facing direction and all they really seem to gain is some stage space.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah part of why WD back is so valuable is because it protects your back and it sends you back farther than a dash could. In general WD back is a really strong tool for other reasons as well such as giving you access to grab and setting up easier CC/ASDI down.

Obviously if you have less stage this is less possible as a tool, but really if you do a pretty long dash/run forward WD back then you can still make use of it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Does wavedash back become more valuable relative to dashback when you have more stage to expend/have them cornered? I find that if they read the dashback they end up chasing me and im stuck in run with my back turned and suddenly I feel the disadvantaged one. On the other hand if they read the wdb they cant really punish it as easily since you maintain your facing direction and all they really seem to gain is some stage space.

The foxtrot/double dash is really useful in that kind of situation, so you don't transition into run and can still pivot grab. I prefer it over wavedash there because of the startup and being actionable at all times.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Against Puff I have an enormous amount of trouble getting out of the corner/off the ledge. So much so that I feel like the vast majority of my issues with Puff are in these positions as I get better at recovery/DI and don't die to a bair at 50. Can you explain your ideas for dealing with this/these positions?

Also, at Big House I lost to a Doc, which was probably the one semi-relevant matchup I had never really played. I tried to apply to the general strat of walling fairs and dtilts vs lesser characters. It worked well enough, but I had no real answer to pills (I'm sure they're very beatable, I just don't know how yet) especially while he was recovering, and he continually lived to 150+ percent which I know shouldn't be happening for a character with Doc's recovery. This second question is for everyone, not just PP. How do I beat Doc?

 

[Socrates]

Also, at Big House I lost to a Doc, which was probably the one semi-relevant matchup I had never really played. I tried to apply to the general strat of walling fairs and dtilts vs lesser characters. It worked well enough, but I had no real answer to pills (I'm sure they're very beatable, I just don't know how yet) especially while he was recovering, and he continually lived to 150+ percent which I know shouldn't be happening for a character with Doc's recovery. This second question is for everyone, not just PP. How do I beat Doc?

Jab beats pills. His WD gives him a lot of ground mobility, so you need to make him afraid of the ground and get him to jump. I think this can be done by mixing up dtilt and threatening grab with agressive dashing but I’m sure PP has some better options for this. As for edgegaurding, if they’re sent far away from the stage i like to go out there using a bair to have my back to them and then cover their arial drift with bair.

When they’re on the ledge, I’ve gotten good milage out of dash in > full SH back to bait out that ledgedash mario/doc/luigi players like to do and punish with Fair or Dtilt. They don’t have a lot of range from the ledge past their ledgedash > ftilt range so you could also get away with crouching out of range and reacting to their option with dtilt or grab depending on what they do.

 

[HolidayMaker]

I play enough Luigis to deal with the ledgedash well (I like nair just outside of ledgedash dsmash, personally) but how do I prevent the pills from hitting me while I jump out? That was why I couldn't edgeguard.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Against Puff I have an enormous amount of trouble getting out of the corner/off the ledge. So much so that I feel like the vast majority of my issues with Puff are in these positions as I get better at recovery/DI and don't die to a bair at 50. Can you explain your ideas for dealing with this/these positions?

Also, at Big House I lost to a Doc, which was probably the one semi-relevant matchup I had never really played. I tried to apply to the general strat of walling fairs and dtilts vs lesser characters. It worked well enough, but I had no real answer to pills (I'm sure they're very beatable, I just don't know how yet) especially while he was recovering, and he continually lived to 150+ percent which I know shouldn't be happening for a character with Doc's recovery. This second question is for everyone, not just PP. How do I beat Doc?

Yeah this is definitely the hardest part of the matchup, including when she's crouched next to you.

You can't rush it. Incrementally take your space OR go in vs her if she goes into an easy Fair height. If she Bairs in at all(meaning not full drift back) you can pivot grab this out of the air(or dash grab the landing if you're late I suppose). Off of the edge, you want to mix your edgehop Fair with NIL(Fsmash) and haxdash(edgedash too occasionally). That trio should give you enough leverage no matter what she's doing. Especially if you mix your regrab timings.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Howdy,

Noticed folks have been putting some VODs here - would anyone mind looking at mine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkR5KJPEDJY

I haven't had too much time to play/practice/explore since this tournament, but since this is a particularly recent set, a particularly bad set, and against a particularly strong player where I'm from I figure this is a good one to look at! I'm going to have plenty of time for melee this week so things to work on moving forward would be great, so if any of the other regulars/PP wanna have a look and tear this apart, feel free

thanks all!

 

[Sylarius]

PP, when is it appropriate to go for something like a run up raw grab in neutral? And when is it appropriate to go for an aerial when the other player is at low %?

Whiff punishing and baiting is obvious to me. But I don't really get doing semi-random aggressive stuff. Here's an example:

https://youtu.be/ngt_3mke-Xw?t=1731

The first dtilts makes more sense to me since he's just dash dancing in place. The grab I don't really understand. Were you just really sure he was going to keep waiting for you to whiff an approach at him? Did you think he was looking to bait a premature grab out of you to catch his fullhop? The more I watch it the more I think it's the second, but there are other instances of this and I would have thought your dtilts would make him want to jump or hit you coming in first...

Here's another that kind of confuses me:

https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=117

were you prematurely guessing he would land/just be there either dashing or shine/nairing?

like 99% of the time when I run up fsmash/dash attack/raw grab in neutral it's a read of their dash back, dash in, or short hop laser. Is there more to it I guess is my question? Usually them respecting those random aggressive options from me is tertiary to my mission or reason for using those options so I can get more dash back punishes...

How is it you can out dash dance foxes on the ground typically by only using grab and dtilt? I use nair sometimes and sh double fair sometimes when I'm feeling a little unsure about them or wanting to protect myself but I'm trying to move away from both because fair rarely leads into anything except at higher % and nair only occasionally gives a grab but is spotdodged/cc'd fairly often. (Except against peach and puff, and marth my aerial usage is primarily anti-their-dtilt)

I guess I don't understand how players like Ken were able to dominate supposedly very aggro as Marth (at least according to the documentary) which seems difficult to me because of his moveset. Writing this actually makes me realize I have barely watched any of his videos. Lol I watch almost every new Marth vod nowadays. More interesting to me than actually playing. But I wish I understood more. It seems so clear to me that your dash dance has more to do with proper placement of moves, vs Zain who will rarely play aggro, vs Moon who goes for random raw grabs a ton, vs Shroomed who walls out with aerials. I hope that is accurate. But I think there is deeper understanding I'm missing. I only understand this from a wide and general perspective I feel.

Like here when Moon goes for a raw grab at the ledge. Is it a read based on risk/reward where if he hits he may get a stock and if he doesn't then he probably won't take thaat much damage?

https://youtu.be/b6Npz1pMdkc?t=16

Thank you!! Fingers crossed for your return =D

 

[capusa27]

Hey, Dr Peepee

I know that you talk a lot about the importance of Z powershielding vs Falco, so I would like to put some other information on Smashboards.

The following information is from r/ssbm: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/75r7yh/how_to_z_powershield_from_a_standstill_and_from_a/

I'm not really sure if you (or the community at large) already know this, but I thought that it would be helpful!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Howdy,

Noticed folks have been putting some VODs here - would anyone mind looking at mine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkR5KJPEDJY

I haven't had too much time to play/practice/explore since this tournament, but since this is a particularly recent set, a particularly bad set, and against a particularly strong player where I'm from I figure this is a good one to look at! I'm going to have plenty of time for melee this week so things to work on moving forward would be great, so if any of the other regulars/PP wanna have a look and tear this apart, feel free

thanks all!

I personally only look at individual situations so that it benefits the group more quickly and is easier for me to manage.

PP, when is it appropriate to go for something like a run up raw grab in neutral? And when is it appropriate to go for an aerial when the other player is at low %?

Whiff punishing and baiting is obvious to me. But I don't really get doing semi-random aggressive stuff. Here's an example:

https://youtu.be/ngt_3mke-Xw?t=1731

The first dtilts makes more sense to me since he's just dash dancing in place. The grab I don't really understand. Were you just really sure he was going to keep waiting for you to whiff an approach at him? Did you think he was looking to bait a premature grab out of you to catch his fullhop? The more I watch it the more I think it's the second, but there are other instances of this and I would have thought your dtilts would make him want to jump or hit you coming in first...

Here's another that kind of confuses me:

https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=117

were you prematurely guessing he would land/just be there either dashing or shine/nairing?

like 99% of the time when I run up fsmash/dash attack/raw grab in neutral it's a read of their dash back, dash in, or short hop laser. Is there more to it I guess is my question? Usually them respecting those random aggressive options from me is tertiary to my mission or reason for using those options so I can get more dash back punishes...

How is it you can out dash dance foxes on the ground typically by only using grab and dtilt? I use nair sometimes and sh double fair sometimes when I'm feeling a little unsure about them or wanting to protect myself but I'm trying to move away from both because fair rarely leads into anything except at higher % and nair only occasionally gives a grab but is spotdodged/cc'd fairly often. (Except against peach and puff, and marth my aerial usage is primarily anti-their-dtilt)

I guess I don't understand how players like Ken were able to dominate supposedly very aggro as Marth (at least according to the documentary) which seems difficult to me because of his moveset. Writing this actually makes me realize I have barely watched any of his videos. Lol I watch almost every new Marth vod nowadays. More interesting to me than actually playing. But I wish I understood more. It seems so clear to me that your dash dance has more to do with proper placement of moves, vs Zain who will rarely play aggro, vs Moon who goes for random raw grabs a ton, vs Shroomed who walls out with aerials. I hope that is accurate. But I think there is deeper understanding I'm missing. I only understand this from a wide and general perspective I feel.

Like here when Moon goes for a raw grab at the ledge. Is it a read based on risk/reward where if he hits he may get a stock and if he doesn't then he probably won't take thaat much damage?

https://youtu.be/b6Npz1pMdkc?t=16

Thank you!! Fingers crossed for your return =D

Neat questions.

So for the first grab, I think I did it because I poked Armada twice and he didn't start jumping right away. Usually people give off tells that they learned their lesson but Armada seemed determined to running Dtilt me or whatever on the ground, so I went for the grab.

Oh that second one is going to be harder to explain lol. Okay so before that grab, I Nair him after I get Baired. Then I push in a lot to see what he does. He comes in so I move back to punish that. As he confirms I move back/decides he was gonna go in hard anyway I confirm he's still coming in out of my first dash back so I do another and then pivot grab him. At the point I pivot grab there isn't much he can do to beat me in that particular spacing so it was definitely a win for me.

Fox loses to Marth pretty badly like Leffen says if you play grounded, so you just need to learn to threaten your grab and Fair well with occasional Dtilt pokes for encouragement. Fox can feel overwhelmed by this larger move range and push into you, which can get you grabs like what you saw here.

Moon goes for the grab because he does not see Leffen try to punish his forward Nair lag and realizes Leffen may be taking his time to approach or just waiting a little so he goes in. Kinda like your first example with Armada but faster/perhaps more risky.

Hey, Dr Peepee

I know that you talk a lot about the importance of Z powershielding vs Falco, so I would like to put some other information on Smashboards.

The following information is from r/ssbm: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/75r7yh/how_to_z_powershield_from_a_standstill_and_from_a/

I'm not really sure if you (or the community at large) already know this, but I thought that it would be helpful!

Oooo pretty cool I haven't checked r/ssbm since noon today. Thanks for the link!

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hello PP, I haven't asked a question in forever. But I want to ask about note taking/note making.

1. How important do you think effective note taking is for a top player or up and coming one?

2. What subjects do you write about in your notes? As well, how do you categorize it?

3. What strategies do you think can make your notes more effective?

4. Do you use a specific style of writing to keep your notes editable easily?

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. Difficult to say. I personally think it's incredibly valuable, but I never took notes for a long time. I just saved useful info and talked to people/analyzed matches daily to keep the info fresh. Now I think it's incredibly crucial for me personally, but based on my own experience I can't recommend it 100%.

2. How to beat a certain move or combination of moves, how to win at a certain spacing, how to understand attacks, frame data, gifs of animations and their implications, stuff for edgeguard neutral punish etc, sometimes I copy a timestamped situation to understand it better. Mostly what I have currently is a big big file of a bunch of stuff to test so it's all kinda thrown in there. However, I'll probably organize my notes by matchup when I get back to work. I'll also put any notes about my own character or how I think of tools in general in separate files. You could break it down more if you wanted with separate notes for neutral vs Fox and edgeguarding vs Fox, etc

3. Keep it short when possible. If you can't do that, then go and write summarized versions of your long-form stuff so you at least have a good way to tap back into your thinking. A big mass of notes you just get lost in.

4. I tend to create overall topics using ":" and then if I want bullet points I'd use "-"

For example,

Marth vs Fox

Neutral:

-CC/ASDI down (Nair) %s
--(sub heading if needed)

-Threatening range on every stage

etc

Edit: I should note that I haven't fully decided on my notes format yet because I want to revamp it from how I did it pre-Apex 2015. So I may come back and explain it later or you may need to ask again once I've solved that. I think this works okay though.

 

[Quiteballin]

Hey PP,

So I was watching a set between Ginger and Zain at Big House and I realized that when Zain got Ginger up on a platform Zain would go for the upair that covers the whole platform and Ginger would just slide off DI and escape. As the set goes on Zain starts to just fsmash but I cant till if this is out of nerves/sloppy play or if he just doesnt want to get nothing from and up air. Regardless, the fsmash isn't good at low percent. As far as I know the up-tilt can not be DI'd to slide off but i know you cannot cover every tech option with uptilt on say Yoshi's for example. I'll link the vod below. Do you have any thoughts on this situation? I am not sure what the next course of action should be if my up-airs are getting nullified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vswtBsebF6s

One instance happens at 9:13. It happens plenty of times.

Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

This is difficult to answer without specific situations. The one at 9:13 isn't even from a grab but we can use that since that is really easy for Marth since it's a higher Falco percent and off of an aerial not Uthrow. Forward hit of Utilt I think you can still hold down at that percent against it, but the back hit I don't know much about since I never see Marths use it and haven't done exhaustive testing on this myself yet. Back hit of Utilt is much more likely to launch and would be harder to slide off against it anyway there. You could also do another Nair and if they hold down they slide off and might not be able to dj to the edge which makes for easier edgeguards(this isn't applicable at lower percents and/or on BF/DL as much for various reasons). You can also jump onto the platform and Uthrow at this percent if you want and just follow to the top platform, or Dthrow and do an edgeguard from that position. At lower percents, Bthrow may be an option but I hesitate to mention that since I want to test that a lot. Ultimately, the 50/50 from Utilt and Fsmash isn't bad but of course it isn't ideal. I don't have a fully mapped out answer just some good ideas at the moment. At any rate, Marths do not seem to have labbed this much yet so it is difficult to know from any footage of any player right now. Sorry I can't give a better answer, but I do think there is some use in some of my answers for you to try at least.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I've had a really big breakthrough the past few days, and I'm excited. Got to push further and ask more questions.

To explain, I finally understand the concepts of adaption and conditioning and mixups as applied to Melee. The emphasis is important there, because I had fallen into this trap of assuming because I knew what conditioning was I therefore understood it - this was, of course, very wrong.

I'm not quite sure that any one thing woke me up, but I had been struggling for a good while now with feeling like I had no control over my opponents, and had to play their game. I got really frustrated too. But I gettttt it now: my opponents responded in a particular way because of my selection of moves/movement; by changing that selection they are then forced to respond a different way, and if I know what their responses will be, I can counter them with a different selection. Eventually opponents come to associate certain situations with certain selections (i.e. Dash WD Dtilt out of TR), so by recognizing the patterns in their responses and changing my selections in those situations, I can beat their counter.

I didn't have any control over my opponent because I wasn't paying attention to what they were doing, but only what I was doing. Because of this it didn't really matter whether I mixed things up properly, because I was only reacting to opportunities and not making them myself. I see now how inseparable the concepts of adaption, conditioning, and mixups really are. It sounds like a basic concept, but I know you of all people get how important to really understand it is.

I think at least part of my problem was how inorganic my view of these "mindgame" elements were, and how I seemed to have the idea that just knowing what actions beat my opponents' options and how to do them was enough - that I could somehow do mixups in a vacuum and expect it to amount to something. In retrospect it seems so stupid, but even though I knew there was a hole in my understanding, I honestly thought I was being mindful and trying to think as deep as I could... think, to think.

It's a difficult question to word, but how do I recognize when a layer of the game is more or less going over my head? Is that possible without getting rek'd a lot first, or having someone point it out to me?

Overall I feel like this is huge for my growth and partly just wanted to share. I still have a long way to go, but with this I finally feel like I'm playing the same game as the top players - now I just have to get good at it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can recognize when you miss something by results in matches like you said. Otherwise, you just need to stay very open to the ideas of others and take them very seriously. Considering all possibilities as deeply as you can will help you avoid some pitfalls as well.

 

[Kotastic]

I've been really thinking about how my dashes mean in terms of conditioning and scouting for info. Does my opponent think my forward dashes are meaningless and thus will overshoot? Will they opt to jump? Stuff like that.

However, as I explore more with how my dashes make my opponent respond, I realize that it's rather futile if I lack a base macro gameplan. What I mean is this: I love the Falcon matchup. I just understand it so well because I understand the overlying Marth's principles and rules in that matchup. I understand why I lost because I violated some Marth rules, like swinging in the wrong places and thus I got whiff punished hard by Falcon. With my understanding of my macro gameplan, I incorporate the little things like how does Falcon respond my dash forward and such. Using my knowledge of the matchup, the little micro things are what elevates my gameplay and makes this my best matchup easily.

While my macro gameplan for Falcon is good, just about every other character I still have some sort of lacking in my macro gameplan. Like sure, I know what to do in some situations here and there, and my punish game is relatively strong. I know things like less is more and jump if they jump rule, but I just fail to have...vision. I have vision when it comes to what I should expect from the Falcon matchup, but Fox for example I don't. Really, the same rules from the falcon mu should apply, but Fox is just...so fast. I remember playing a Fox player that was obviously leagues above me, and with my lack of understanding of the matchup, all that happened was blip blip I died. The set lasted less than 5 minutes in a Bo3. I don't even understood what happened, and that was my wake-up call that I need to have a macro gameplan for the top tiers at the very least.

I feel like asking you to list all the mu's rules and principles would be too much to ask, so what are your methods for dissecting what works for Marth to make relatively simple rules and principles? I'm really just looking to make a sort of quick-and-dirty overview on what I should do on matchups, and WHY I should follow them as well.

Edit: I just went ahead and just made a rough draft of my matchup rules rn with my current knowledge and a lot of things just copied from you tbh. Feel free to comment on it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10mW34evIRSa77AtIosNERNE8yOLouSUvQc-Gv1vo3D4/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Zorcey]

Kotastic I actually asked PP a similar question a while back, and here was his response - reaaaally good stuff to add to your notes:

I'll try but I'm not always in my best position to do it for every matchup

Fox: switch between punishing his landing and outranging him. do whatever it takes to win whether it's zoning or moving or something else.

Falco: Jumping defensively is pointless, dash once occasionally twice, take laser jab stuffs his approach(from decent ranges)

I've done the ditto a lot so I'm skipping it.

Sheik: You can move or zone vs her, but zoning doesn't really work unless you're closeish. Her dash attack and boost grab is a big risk she doesn't want to take too often. Tech chase then uthrow her, and don't do noob DI when she grabs you.

Falcon: Extreme "less is more." Fight farther away than you think you need to. Dtilt very sparingly and focus on jumping if he jumps. When he's cornered you can swing first and jump a lot.

Peach: Stay out of (run) dash attack but within WD Dtilt range and you win.

Puff: Center is extremely important. Count her jumps and watch her landing. Dash grab, and hit the reactions on throws.

ICs: Like any other matchup, get to where you can Fair/Dtilt them but they can't hit you. ICs just make this a lot easier, don't forget they only stay grounded. Watch the gimmicks.

That works well enough I guess.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been really thinking about how my dashes mean in terms of conditioning and scouting for info. Does my opponent think my forward dashes are meaningless and thus will overshoot? Will they opt to jump? Stuff like that.

However, as I explore more with how my dashes make my opponent respond, I realize that it's rather futile if I lack a base macro gameplan. What I mean is this: I love the Falcon matchup. I just understand it so well because I understand the overlying Marth's principles and rules in that matchup. I understand why I lost because I violated some Marth rules, like swinging in the wrong places and thus I got whiff punished hard by Falcon. With my understanding of my macro gameplan, I incorporate the little things like how does Falcon respond my dash forward and such. Using my knowledge of the matchup, the little micro things are what elevates my gameplay and makes this my best matchup easily.

While my macro gameplan for Falcon is good, just about every other character I still have some sort of lacking in my macro gameplan. Like sure, I know what to do in some situations here and there, and my punish game is relatively strong. I know things like less is more and jump if they jump rule, but I just fail to have...vision. I have vision when it comes to what I should expect from the Falcon matchup, but Fox for example I don't. Really, the same rules from the falcon mu should apply, but Fox is just...so fast. I remember playing a Fox player that was obviously leagues above me, and with my lack of understanding of the matchup, all that happened was blip blip I died. The set lasted less than 5 minutes in a Bo3. I don't even understood what happened, and that was my wake-up call that I need to have a macro gameplan for the top tiers at the very least.

I feel like asking you to list all the mu's rules and principles would be too much to ask, so what are your methods for dissecting what works for Marth to make relatively simple rules and principles? I'm really just looking to make a sort of quick-and-dirty overview on what I should do on matchups, and WHY I should follow them as well.

Edit: I just went ahead and just made a rough draft of my matchup rules rn with my current knowledge and a lot of things just copied from you tbh. Feel free to comment on it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10mW34evIRSa77AtIosNERNE8yOLouSUvQc-Gv1vo3D4/edit?usp=sharing

The same rules for Falcon don't apply fully to Fox because Fox is faster and has different moves(you can stand closer to Fox and jump for example). Also, macro gameplans tend to come from learning important micro tricks. For instance, you learn Marth super outranges Fox whereas he only kind of outranges Falcon. This means you can jump closer to Fox like I mentioned in my earlier example. You haven't violated a Marth "rule" by doing so, and are able to abuse the matchup more correctly. Then this type of fundamental difference(difference in outranging) from looking at all micro interactions between main tools becomes a macro rule. That's how you build a matchup.

See if Zorcey's quote of me helps as well before I go any further.

 

[Kotastic]

I see. I appear to work a bit differently working backwards, as how I learned the Falcon matchup was looking at your rules first then building upon the micro interactions. This is something I'll have to look upon in other matchups I still struggle in. Your notes are very helpful, but just a few clarifications:

What do you mean that jumping defensively against Falco is pointless? Additionally, what advice would you give for the Samus mu?

 

[Dr Peepee]

In many situations where Falco would want to hit you, you're gonna get caught on jumpsquat and not really be able to get the move out and if he just waits then you corner yourself. I mean there's probably some utility to making him wait more by giving up stage doing that, but I think defensive jumping is usually something to minimize against Falco right now.

Edit: I need to go in depth on Samus again before giving any detailed advice on her and I haven't seen it played well in a long time/ever so I'll need to make sure I don't mislead with what I say. That being said my current thinking is to Dtilt/Fair her and to minimally DD(not eliminate and overzone like ICs, but just work a little in). That seems to play out well based on my memory.

 

[kancon1]

First of all thank you PPMD for your dedication to this thread. I'm kind of bad at putting my thoughts into words so here we go.

How I recognize 'reading moments'? Such as when Falco shoots a laser, reading what he will do next. As a beginner/intermediate to the mental side of melee, what kind of actions should I be observing to get my reads? I feel like I always focus on too much and get overwhelmed or too little and end up playing pretty much braindead except for very obvious reads.

 

[lokt]

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=11m2s

At this timestamp, you combo tipper fh fair into upair to juggle peach instead of using weak fair to knock her off stage.
5 seconds later, you combo sh tipper fair into weak fair to knock her off stage.

Is there a situational reason you make these 2 contrasting decisions?