Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Darktruite]

What are the best ways to practice my Melee Marth tech skill and gameplay by myself?!?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_0v9J54eNc&index=18&list=PL3Z01NXawoQceMjbPnuegbh4C_ECzAKOZ
Those videos explain how to train your basic tech skills by yourself.
They are quite good in my opinion

 

[gcboy]

Hi, I have a quick question. I find that if my opponent gives me space to play the usual gameplan i.e. do movement tricks and compound approaches and zone then I do fine but if they start sharking me and pressuring me (basically just space animals) I find it difficult to reset the situation and get them off me. Can I have some tips?

I try to pivot grab, change up defensive options like roll, WD OoS, do AC nairs or fading fairs, even just run to ledge but I get wrecked pretty consistently by hyper aggressive pressure. Basically how do I get a space animal to respect my space if I can't zone them with dtilt or double fairs?

I know it could be just that I'm a slower player and I'll admit that I don't have the best reactions but I'd like to think there's more to it than that especially with a character like Marth. Thanks guys!

 

[Taytertot]

Hi, I have a quick question. I find that if my opponent gives me space to play the usual gameplan i.e. do movement tricks and compound approaches and zone then I do fine but if they start sharking me and pressuring me (basically just space animals) I find it difficult to reset the situation and get them off me. Can I have some tips?

I try to pivot grab, change up defensive options like roll, WD OoS, do AC nairs or fading fairs, even just run to ledge but I get wrecked pretty consistently by hyper aggressive pressure. Basically how do I get a space animal to respect my space if I can't zone them with dtilt or double fairs?

I know it could be just that I'm a slower player and I'll admit that I don't have the best reactions but I'd like to think there's more to it than that especially with a character like Marth. Thanks guys!

Well its difficult to say for sure without vods, but i'll list some thoughts as to what could be the cause and maybe one or a few of them will resonate with you.

these first ones have more to do with how you started getting pressured in the first place, but i'll get to possible options/strategies for once theyre on top of you.

if youre trying to zone them with dtilt and youre getting punished then it might be that they have a read on what you want to do next i.e. always dash back/always dash forward/always throw out a fair, etc. the other possibility is that youre not spacing in a way that lets you get away from a punish because throwing out dtilt in neutral is more of a statement that if the spacey tries to approach youre actively attempting to cover a grounded approach. assuming its spaced well this causes them to feel like they need to jump over to get at you in which case you can dash back and do a quick dash forward and jump to punish with fair or nair. effectively you start by making them feel like they need to challenge you from the air and then you prove to them that youre space cant be challenge in the air. but this doesnt mean you always want to be throwing out aerials and dtilts obviously. you want to throw it out when you think theyve got the confidence to approach you. and if you dtilt and they dont approach then the aerial will only put you in a bad spot. they could also bait out the aerial after dtilt and punish after so you need to mix up that defense well.

maybe when a space animal is going very aggro you stop playing offense altogether or it simply becomes a small portion of your game and so the space animal is free to run around and jump all over try to get you to commit to throwing out an unsafe fair or nair wall and the space animal just goes in from there. By not actively pushing your threat zone towards them in an attempt to close out the space they have to work with and force them to respect your range, youre allowing them free reign over how they want to approach you and dictate the terms of each interaction.

maybe youre spacing your defenses in such a way that it doesnt cover some of the possible mixups that the space animal has and so the wall you throw out or the dash back/wavedash etc. is covering the standard option(s) but leaving you very open to possible mixups that the spacey has. If you do have slow reaction time then maybe youre committing to a specific wall that the spacey is has time to react to and then chooses to punish you with an option you cant react to. if this is the case then maybe giving yourself more space and being less willing to commit to an option may give you an opening once the spacey is forced to commit to something because you havent committed.

If youre issue isnt with the interactions leading up to the space animal getting in on you then here are some possible strategies and thoughts.
it could be that when youre being actively pressured by fast paced very aggro characters that youre not mixing up the way you react to the space animal coming at you and so they get a good read on how you try to get out of pressure. even if you are changing the options you use it could be that the change in option is effectively doing the same thing in certain situations. In which case, you need to be aware of how your gut reactions to pressure might be predictable.

Or maybe youre just unaware of what options are best and when to use them. when a space animal is using nair shine pressure on your shield you want to make sure that you mixing up the timing of when you roll and where you roll. as far as frame stuff goes, if we assume that the space animal has either ungodly reaction time or has a read on when and where you want to roll then rolling after the nair hits your shield is best because if fox or falco shine your shield and know youre going to roll out then the shine is less committal. they can just wavedash toward you and punish the roll whereas after then nair they still have to get back to the ground go through landing lag and then get over to you. that being said if they dont have a read on you then its up to you to actively be aware of when and if you think they might back off on shield pressure to see what you do. if they shine you and youre sure that theyre going to nair afterward then rolling after the shine is better because generally speaking people cant react fast enough to know when to stop pressuring your shield. so they shine, you roll, they throw out a nair and realize that youve rolled and now they need to get back to the ground and get after you, but youre already halfway through the roll animation so youve effectively escaped because you can dash away before theyd be able to hit you again and youd be able to punish an attempt from them to nair you with a grab.

as for sharking you while your on a platform you can shield the attack and then wavedash off the platform in either direction and theyd have to get a bit of a read because if they try to short hop aerial you after you wavedash off then theyd miss if you dj right after sliding off the platform, so they could full hop aerial but thats a similar issue where youre now to low for them to continue pressuring you and in falco's case if he full hop dair'd you then you can tech off the ground and now youve got center stage and falco's in the air. though id say that being on a platform in the first place is not generally good against spacies and id recommend trying to stay mobile when you do usee platforms so that you have enough time to drop from the platform and smack them away if they try to pressure you while youre up there.

 

[Syaith]

I second this question, but maybe for the more selfish purpose of my own improvement. The only examples of "Smash Literature" I can think of are Drastic Improvement and various PPMD articles. I've never been able to find anything else that wasn't more general FGC/Street Fighter focused (tho I enjoy reading these things too), but I'd love to be told I wasn't looking hard enough.

The vast majority of melee literature can be found here: http://www.meleelibrary.com/

Some particularly influential on me were:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2jc3gb/nmws_guide_to_getting_good_at_melee/
Sycorax's post in: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3r5g2l/how_to_understand_a_characters_movement_the/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501llsa-5ds
Matchup specific PPMD and Umbreon posts you can find by searching this thread

Check out Kadano's marth frame-based optimization thread as well.

 

[Uma]

So I've been testing a new way to kill spacies between 50 and 90 and it seems kinda cheesy but it just works.. Been doing this in tournament for about a month now and I'm really not seeing the drawbacks I was expecting to.

Just up throw -> jump or DJ reverse Up B
It works on no DI and DI away, DI in is easy to react to with an upair so you still get a combo, and the knockback is much better than what most marths do (just upthrow nair). This flat out kills on most stages even from center stage you will get an easy fsmash edgeguard. Also I've not run into a single spacey that actually expects this or starts DIing it correctly.

I also have found my new favorite way to edge guard sheik. When she's recovering, most marths will grab ledge, wait for her to land onstage, and then fsmash or dthrow her. If you know she'll have to land on stage and she can't poof too far away, you can nair on stage and land the reverse hitbox on her. You then grab ledge and repeat this until she's dead, there's no counterplay. Works especially well on FD as there's no platforms for her first poof (The others dont matter because the nair knocks her back fairly far.

I play a weird Marth so maybe these have downsides I don't know about but that's how innovation happens so whatever, see any holes in these PP/Umbreon?

 

[ridemyboat]

Can you crouch cancel shield against nair? Also, would there be time to land a grounded up b against sheik instead? If you could get in front of her in time, it should be better. Maybe ledgedash, dash in front, and up b. Nair has better kb than aerial up b until much higher than 80, but if they can DI the nair but not the up b then it sounds like up b is better in that situation.

 

[Uma]

Can you crouch cancel shield against nair? Also, would there be time to land a grounded up b against sheik instead? If you could get in front of her in time, it should be better. Maybe ledgedash, dash in front, and up b. Nair has better kb than aerial up b until much higher than 80, but if they can DI the nair but not the up b then it sounds like up b is better in that situation.

For the nair vs UpB from ledge, its really not about the knockback. If you land the reverse nair, they're dead. Its really easy to repeatedly do to sheik and even if it takes 2 or 3 times they have no chance. Ledge dash reverse up B with proper spacing is actually really hard to do and if you mess up you are probably dead. Idk why cc shield would matter here as they're still in landing lag.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I've been testing a new way to kill spacies between 50 and 90 and it seems kinda cheesy but it just works.. Been doing this in tournament for about a month now and I'm really not seeing the drawbacks I was expecting to.

Just up throw -> jump or DJ reverse Up B
It works on no DI and DI away, DI in is easy to react to with an upair so you still get a combo, and the knockback is much better than what most marths do (just upthrow nair). This flat out kills on most stages even from center stage you will get an easy fsmash edgeguard. Also I've not run into a single spacey that actually expects this or starts DIing it correctly.

I also have found my new favorite way to edge guard sheik. When she's recovering, most marths will grab ledge, wait for her to land onstage, and then fsmash or dthrow her. If you know she'll have to land on stage and she can't poof too far away, you can nair on stage and land the reverse hitbox on her. You then grab ledge and repeat this until she's dead, there's no counterplay. Works especially well on FD as there's no platforms for her first poof (The others dont matter because the nair knocks her back fairly far.

I play a weird Marth so maybe these have downsides I don't know about but that's how innovation happens so whatever, see any holes in these PP/Umbreon?

Yeah that up-B thing both M2K and I thought of and used a while ago. It's pretty great since most people DI away on the Fair they expect.

For the Nair, that's good if the Sheik doesn't switch angles and go to the edge and also if you're hitting second hit of Nair only. Also you want to make sure to hit her before she lands onstage, but that isn't always possible so sometimes she gets her jump back. I think it's alright as an option but I prefer tipper Fsmash when possible. More damage and will send farther on average even if they have a jump.

 

[DarkOreoMaster]

PP, what readings would you recommend to work on a strong mental game? I have anxiety, and when I go to tournaments I play badly, mostly due to my nerves. It isn't just melee either, it's basically any type of solo performance in front of others while something is on the line. How do you get over that barrier of nerves to start playing well? And once you get past that barrier, how do you increase your general fortitude?

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, what readings would you recommend to work on a strong mental game? I have anxiety, and when I go to tournaments I play badly, mostly due to my nerves. It isn't just melee either, it's basically any type of solo performance in front of others while something is on the line. How do you get over that barrier of nerves to start playing well? And once you get past that barrier, how do you increase your general fortitude?

Books that greatly helped my way to think of myself and compete well as a person are:

-the art of learning

-the inner game of tennis

-unlimited power

there are a couple others I could list, but those three are probably more of what you're looking for. the first two are particularly about competition and mental game. the third is good no matter what discipline you're in.

 

[DarkOreoMaster]

Books that greatly helped my way to think of myself and compete well as a person are:

-the art of learning

-the inner game of tennis

-unlimited power

there are a couple others I could list, but those three are probably more of what you're looking for. the first two are particularly about competition and mental game. the third is good no matter what discipline you're in.

Thank you! I know you're a strong believer in meditation. Do you have any techniques you'd recommend, especially for smash?

 

[Uma]

I guess the sheiks in cfl just don't know how to escape the nair from ledge because I can use both hits and they never make it to ledge just on stage lol. Oh well I'm going to keep abusing it until they figure it out.

 

[Syaith]

Thank you! I know you're a strong believer in meditation. Do you have any techniques you'd recommend, especially for smash?

Idk if PP has any new insights into meditation, but here is PPMD on meditation from Evo 2015: https://youtu.be/WQN5WaiBrEA?t=4m50s

Check out the collection of PPMD interviews on youtube, there's a wealth of knowledge there.

 

[Kopaka]

The vast majority of melee literature can be found here: http://www.meleelibrary.com/

Some particularly influential on me were:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2jc3gb/nmws_guide_to_getting_good_at_melee/
Sycorax's post in: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3r5g2l/how_to_understand_a_characters_movement_the/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501llsa-5ds
Matchup specific PPMD and Umbreon posts you can find by searching this thread

Check out Kadano's marth frame-based optimization thread as well.

Thanks for sharing that Sycorax link, never read that before. Definitely some true stuff articulated nicely in that post

 

[1Twinmuduck]

Hey PPMD! Hope you're doing well. I just had a tournament where I fought a defensive Peach and most of the time it seemed like he was floating just above and out of reach. So I tried hitting him with Full hop second hit nair, full hop fair, get under him and up air and even reverse bair(I know that was not a good idea). After all those he was able for the most part, counter my missed attack and stack on a bunch of damage. Then I kinda had an idea of approaching with reverse nair.

Let me try to paint a picture. Essentially all this Peach player would do is float at an angle and distance to threaten with FC fair if I wasn't aggressive with my positioning and if I missed my attack(which I did a lot of) he would just hit me with fair or nair. So what I did to counter this was I would face the opposite direction of my opponent, do a short hop then waveland towards my opponent and immediately short hop nair. Basically hitting with reverse nair. It would just barely hit him at the float height he was used to floating at and I was able to get a good amount of conversions off of it. It basically won me the set cause my opponent wouldn't not adapt to this strategy.

My question really would be what do you think about this option? What are the draw backs, problems, and counters to using this option? I know there are other options like over shooting aerials, better stage positioning, baiting and waiting for a missed attack from my opponent. I also know that it won't help me againt every peach but is it an option I should continue to use in this situation and develop further? I'm worried it might be too weird to be effective. Thanks!

 

[Taytertot]

Hey PPMD! Hope you're doing well. I just had a tournament where I fought a defensive Peach and most of the time it seemed like he was floating just above and out of reach. So I tried hitting him with Full hop second hit nair, full hop fair, get under him and up air and even reverse bair(I know that was not a good idea). After all those he was able for the most part, counter my missed attack and stack on a bunch of damage. Then I kinda had an idea of approaching with reverse nair.

Let me try to paint a picture. Essentially all this Peach player would do is float at an angle and distance to threaten with FC fair if I wasn't aggressive with my positioning and if I missed my attack(which I did a lot of) he would just hit me with fair or nair. So what I did to counter this was I would face the opposite direction of my opponent, do a short hop then waveland towards my opponent and immediately short hop nair. Basically hitting with reverse nair. It would just barely hit him at the float height he was used to floating at and I was able to get a good amount of conversions off of it. It basically won me the set cause my opponent wouldn't not adapt to this strategy.

My question really would be what do you think about this option? What are the draw backs, problems, and counters to using this option? I know there are other options like over shooting aerials, better stage positioning, baiting and waiting for a missed attack from my opponent. I also know that it won't help me againt every peach but is it an option I should continue to use in this situation and develop further? I'm worried it might be too weird to be effective. Thanks!

i think peach's counter to this strategy would be to just to FC nair in place and then dsmash to cover if peach times the her nair wrong. this would allow her to either hit you with FC nair or CC the first hit of your nair and dsmash. so this seems like a dangerous strategy for you. i think maybe a safer way to challenge peach in this scenario would be to dash in to bait out the FC fair and then wavedash back slightly and utilt/dtilt/maybe grab if you think you can get her before the follow up dsmash comes out. dtilt would be safest if you whiff since you can dash back quickly. if youre feeling really risky you could try a read and just fsmash after the dash in wavedash back. or if you want to just get in their head and feel out their response then you could dash in wavedash back slightly and do nothing. maybe switch it up by waiting for her float to end and doing the dash in wavedash back to see if they panic dsmash or something. id say that as long as youre threatening turnip pull then youre stalemating her just as hard as she is to you and shouldnt feel pressed to create interactions. if you get one poke then ultimately peach is forced to commit at some point because if you just play to control your space you could theoretically win by time out with one poke. this idea will potentially net you some openings as the peach player gets frustrated or tries to find ways to interact with you. my main point being that when marth (or spacies, falcon, etc. for that matter) play floaties they assume that its on them to interact and that the floaties somehow benefit more from a lack of interaction then they do, but you can make it equally as difficult for them to find openings and they will usually have less ways of creating them due to having a slower ground game. but thats just my 2 cents and not the only good strategy and certainly not the best strategy as im not a top player. im probably missing something.

 

[AirFair]

Hey PPMD! Hope you're doing well. I just had a tournament where I fought a defensive Peach and most of the time it seemed like he was floating just above and out of reach. So I tried hitting him with Full hop second hit nair, full hop fair, get under him and up air and even reverse bair(I know that was not a good idea). After all those he was able for the most part, counter my missed attack and stack on a bunch of damage. Then I kinda had an idea of approaching with reverse nair.

Let me try to paint a picture. Essentially all this Peach player would do is float at an angle and distance to threaten with FC fair if I wasn't aggressive with my positioning and if I missed my attack(which I did a lot of) he would just hit me with fair or nair. So what I did to counter this was I would face the opposite direction of my opponent, do a short hop then waveland towards my opponent and immediately short hop nair. Basically hitting with reverse nair. It would just barely hit him at the float height he was used to floating at and I was able to get a good amount of conversions off of it. It basically won me the set cause my opponent wouldn't not adapt to this strategy.

My question really would be what do you think about this option? What are the draw backs, problems, and counters to using this option? I know there are other options like over shooting aerials, better stage positioning, baiting and waiting for a missed attack from my opponent. I also know that it won't help me againt every peach but is it an option I should continue to use in this situation and develop further? I'm worried it might be too weird to be effective. Thanks!

If Peach is already floating above you, don't feel the need to get up there and swing at her, because that's most likely what she wants you to do by being at that height. While your nair strategy may have worked on this peach, in the context of Marth vs Peach as a whole, it may not be the most effective. When they float above you, a better thing for you to do is to wait for them to come down, since they have committed to floating above you, so in that case, the only thing they can do is either go up, or try and come down on your forward movement. If they go up, Marth is able to safely pressure from below and observe their actions, since he has no need to try and swing unless they are unresponsive to his feints. If they come down then you can easily punish assuming you haven't committed to any swings.

The drawback to that nair is that it requires Marth to face away from Peach, which is not something that I would think is very favorable if you are planning to move in that way, since Peach can react to any of your movements towards her, plus all of the moves you plant to hit her with have arcs that start away from her. (uair and nair start in front of marth, and bair starts below him). I think that that alone makes it a dangerous tactic vs any Peach that is careful about handling Marth below them.

 

[TheRealSkid]

Dr Peepee how could I make the best of practicing alone besides practicing techskill? It's hard as it is for me just to play the game, let alone with other people.
Most of the few people I can play with are either complete beginners or staunch elitists on multiple planes of skill far beyond mine, and my tournament experiences have not been too great for this reason. I end up getting either one of the two previously described players in the matches I've played in tournament...
And here's a few questions that might be a bit weird to ask here: what parts of Marth or Melee in general can be related to Smash 4's gameplay? Finally, what's your philosophy on using Ftilt and up smash?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee how could I make the best of practicing alone besides practicing techskill? It's hard as it is for me just to play the game, let alone with other people.
Most of the few people I can play with are either complete beginners or staunch elitists on multiple planes of skill far beyond mine, and my tournament experiences have not been too great for this reason. I end up getting either one of the two previously described players in the matches I've played in tournament...
And here's a few questions that might be a bit weird to ask here: what parts of Marth or Melee in general can be related to Smash 4's gameplay? Finally, what's your philosophy on using Ftilt and up smash?

If you want to practice, practice the basics. Everyone can stand to do them and refine them further without exception. Additionally, with 20XX you can practice combos or at least the beginnings of them with the situation reset feature for percent and position. You can also run some setups as well for neutral/juggle/edgeguard and vary things in your head or with a cpu like starting position. Setups are usually a short series of actions that are designed for a purpose, meaning you need to have the basics down well and understand them well through training and learning before you can effectively put them together. Easy takeaway is practice basics and combos and you'll go pretty far if you really work at it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think in a lot of cases the players know what options they have and are able to figure out what to do when being able to think about it for a moment, and the main problem is having to do it at real time.

While this is practiced best by playing, for practicing on one's own I think there are a few other things one can do. Move around with your character as if in a real match and spontaneously imagine registering an action by the opponent, and try to answer it as fast as possible without flubbing or panicking. The idea is to basically simulate the opponent and play your character.

For practicing tech skill, I don't really like most of the practice routines that people usually do, they teach you how to do the single action, but not how to do it in the flow of the match. Players always report how they get a certain technique correct all the time but when playing people (not even in a stressful environment), they mess up a lot. What I think is very helpful is imagining a certain sequence of actions, a few seconds long, which is reasonable and could happen in a real match, with all details (the spacings and timings and so on), and then doing it in one flow. This helps eradicate the animation transition habits, like automatically jumping after d-tilting without thinking about it or anything really... Also include defensive maneouvres, you won't just run at your opponent and throw out hitboxes in a real match.

Then again, I'm not good, so better players can probably answer this way better.

 

[capusa27]

Hi, Kevin Dr Peepee

I'm back again with another Pikachu observation.

So, recently I was watching Mango's Summit 2.5 stream. On the stream, PewPewU stated that, for the time being, he has overcome his Falcon mental weakness. More startling to me, though, Kevin stated that Pikachu vs Marth is not that bad; Axe is just really good at the matchup. I may have an idea about what changed PewPewU's mind, besides the punish and edge guarding.

I was watching your set vs Axe at Smash Summit 1, and I'm positive that I noticed a general five-step pattern that you employed versus Axe, listed below.

1. When Axe was occupying center, you dashed back into the corner and mixed up F-air timings between single, double, rising, and delayed.
2. When you had center, you aggressively used F-air to corner Pikachu.
3. When Axe was using N-air against you, you wavedashed in the opposite direction where Axe was going. You repeated steps 1. and 2.
4. When you messed up on a jump, you repeated steps 1. and 2.
5. [Probably the most important observation]: I'm pretty sure that you NEVER used your aerial drift backwards; it seemed like you were always jumping TOWARD or IN PLACE vs Axe, ready to F-Air.

Sorry if all of this analysis is incorrect. I wanted to clear my mind. It really is amazing how much you know about the game and how quickly you can figure out matchups.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm usually Fair'ing because I don't want him to Nair me. If my starting position is pretty far where I can usually react to his Nair then I can Fair reliably. If I'm closer then yeah I'll either go under him if I feel outplayed or back and then beat his next option. I could have also dash back shield grabbed since he usually crosses up but Axe can change his Nair starting position so I'd have to react well. Anyway imo it's all about staying far enough away to react to Nair, which is farther than most Marths play it and Axe is really good at getting into that space. I tried to make sure if he did come into it he'd get swatted but that was less successful over time lol.

 

[PoppaSquat]

Hey Dr Peepee I have a question about the peach matchup. Rewatching your set with Armada from Apex 2015 (the marth v peach games) I noticed you would full jump fair then do a falling nair. you did this a couple of times. So my question is, what were you trying to accomplish? The way I see it the full hop was a good idea because short hop gets stuffed by turnip. the fair can also catch turnips or a peach if shes rushing to get a followup. Your fastfall with nair could be to cover your landing but I'm not sure.

actually, as I look through the set again (winner's semis apex 2015) you do a lot of full hop mixups. would you mind talking about these and why you chose them? sometimes you would full hop into ff nair, sometimes you would double jump, and sometimes you would just drift down

 

[Dr Peepee]

If he's holding a turnip, then you're right I don't want to be in the line of fire. If I can drift into him that makes him setting up turnip hits much more difficult. I do the Nair because it can hit through the turnip and hit her as well and it's a strong hitbox. You noticed correctly that I couldn't always do this though since FF Nair can still lose to reading the option. So I DJ if I'm unsure or feel I'll be attacked before I can get into good position, and sometimes drift down with no aerial in order to have less landing lag/give them a different visual and audio cue. If I can get into position to threaten grab vs Peach when she has a turnip I'm in good shape, so even landing close to her is a win for this option I feel.

 

[Asbesto]

Hello Dr Peepee What are your thoughts on using Dair after a Tech Chase and using Dair to begin a Tech Chase?

 

[PoppaSquat]

If he's holding a turnip, then you're right I don't want to be in the line of fire. If I can drift into him that makes him setting up turnip hits much more difficult. I do the Nair because it can hit through the turnip and hit her as well and it's a strong hitbox. You noticed correctly that I couldn't always do this though since FF Nair can still lose to reading the option. So I DJ if I'm unsure or feel I'll be attacked before I can get into good position, and sometimes drift down with no aerial in order to have less landing lag/give them a different visual and audio cue. If I can get into position to threaten grab vs Peach when she has a turnip I'm in good shape, so even landing close to her is a win for this option I feel.

Dr Peepee

Thanks so much for answering my question!

as a follow up:

You mentioned threatening grab while peach has a turnip and how that makes you feel like youre in a good position. But what are you threatening to punish? What should I be looking for to punish? I know peach has limited grounded options with a turnip as she loses her d-smash and grab, but the idea of her being able to throw the turnip at any point makes me feel like I need to respect it. landing next to her to make her feel pressured sounds like a great idea, but wouldn't her answer to that be to just throw the turnip? im just having a hard time recognizing what makes this position favorable for marth

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hello Dr Peepee What are your thoughts on using Dair after a Tech Chase and using Dair to begin a Tech Chase?

I don't like Dair for tech chasing due to it's lag and how people can hold down vs it and not get popped up for good combos for a long time. If you play someone that doesn't know that, or you can hit low Dairs at low percent before knockdown then they're good.

Dr Peepee

Thanks so much for answering my question!

as a follow up:

You mentioned threatening grab while peach has a turnip and how that makes you feel like youre in a good position. But what are you threatening to punish? What should I be looking for to punish? I know peach has limited grounded options with a turnip as she loses her d-smash and grab, but the idea of her being able to throw the turnip at any point makes me feel like I need to respect it. landing next to her to make her feel pressured sounds like a great idea, but wouldn't her answer to that be to just throw the turnip? im just having a hard time recognizing what makes this position favorable for marth

Well if you're close enough to grab, you're also close enough to swing. She can't throw if you can swing and hit her so she's more likely to shield then(especially if the peach is defensive). Also, being able to space moves on her shield is pretty safe and if you threaten with say Dtilt vs grab she's in a bad spot and could opt to spotdodge or roll over attack or turnip throw.

 

[ridemyboat]

Dr. PP did you vote today?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I voted on Friday.

 

[Live4Chaos]

Dr Peepee

What should I be doing in the Yoshi and Pikachu match ups? I feel very lost. (Sorry for the dreadfully broad question)

 

[Asbesto]

Dr Peepee Is taking the spirngs of a controler a good idea if I do L cancel with z?

 

[Deleted member]

Dr Peepee

What should I be doing in the Yoshi and Pikachu match ups? I feel very lost. (Sorry for the dreadfully broad question)

yoshi is fun because he can djc armor through your sword combos. the trick to the yoshi MU is to absolutely spam DD into fthrow or dthrow and go for tech chases with whatever. remember, yoshi can only armor out of your combos if they are not true combos where he gets to use his armored jump, on a true combo with overlapping hitstun yoshi is just another character.

playing around the second jump armor isnt particularly difficult if you make a mental note to actually do it. yoshi also isnt particularly great vs hard dashdance abuse, you just have to accept the Spirit of Autism into your frail fleshy body as you go into the MU and be ready to hit left and right for actually the entire 8 minutes. and i dont mean like ganon where he loses to DD but you can still do like... other things. i mean actually JUST dashdancing. taste the autism. be the autism. your focus is infinite.

 

[Space Cowboy]

taste the autism. be the autism.

n i c e

 

[Deleted member]

n i c e

i got more 'bergers than Five Guys

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

What should I be doing in the Yoshi and Pikachu match ups? I feel very lost. (Sorry for the dreadfully broad question)

I'll answer Pikachu since Umbreon answered Yoshi.

For Pikachu, space pretty far away. Go into training mode with Pika and see how far his SH Nair goes, with and without FF. Space at the edge of that range with Fair and be sure to drift in/move back if Pikachu tries to push that range.

Also try to throw Pikachu up and juggle him well with Fair/Uair. Uair can often trade with Pika Dair so getting to the side with DD grab or Fair can be more useful if you see that option a lot.

Dr Peepee Is taking the spirngs of a controler a good idea if I do L cancel with z?

It's preference really. If it works, do it.

 

[bts.mongoose]

In a Reddit comment, you said:

A Marth's neutral game is good when it can:

1. Use movement and the threat of attacks to intimidate the opponent and score free reads/stage/hits.
   
   
2. Zone with movement and attacks.
   

I am primarily interested in the first and have highly developed that part of my game beyond what anyone else has done.

Would you be willing or able to elaborate on that first point, and how specifically you have developed or went about developing it? I hope that that's not too vague/too complex a topic to break down into a forum post.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's pretty normal stuff in any fighting game. The basics of it are character knowledge, threatening range, and conditioning. Character knowledge is stuff like what your best options are and how they interact. So for Marth, running Dtilt vs running rising Fair vs running grab each cover specific options, with people learning to skew more towards the first two normally and adding the third occasionally. For threatening range, it's like what I described for Pikachu that people don't think about much which is the full neutral distance you can fight and react from. This usually puts you fairly far away from the opponent so you need compound movement to get in or get them to come in. Threatening range is determined by seeing someone's fastest+biggest attacks combined(so fastest isn't always best and biggest isn't but moves that are pretty good on both) plus movement speed to set those things up. So for Fox it's sort of like dash SH Nair range, but since Fox can do different things out of a dash you need a little time to confirm the dash, so you need to back the space up further than dash SH Nair. Finally for conditioning, it's basically taking advantage of memory and associations people make. If the Fox in the example I just used SH Nairs in and gets punished when I wait for him to come in, then the next time I wait and he dashes forward I shouldn't expect a SH Nair(at least not at the same spacing and timing) since even a decent player will try something different in response to similar stimuli. This isn't always true(we all have consistent habits that can hurt us after all), but it's a great rule of thumb.

Eventually you don't need to take massive risks to get some information or some stage position. You just need to understand the things I said above well and you can force the opponent back/get hits with effective threats/conditioning. I'm not saying you can be risk-free or that massive risks are wrong, but certainly we all need some balance in our play and higher risk tends to be problematic the more one skews toward it. Learning to take stage through threats becomes extremely important then.

Hope that helps!

 

[JoeyPlunk]

Hiya Dr Peepee ! Not sure if this has talked been talked about yet. I've been watching some Zain vs sheik lately, and noticed that he'll often use a SH in place + late dair as a defensive option. See - http://bit.ly/2fO9D2I & http://bit.ly/2fOarop. Since the SH dodges Sheik's grab and dash attack, and the dair beats crouch cancel & leads to grab, I figure this might be something to work on. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on incorporating this, vs Sheik or in other matchups. Thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

In both of those instances, Plup seemed antsy for a grab at an unsafe time(I think those types of unusual plays are why Plup lost). The first was especially bad since Plup moved in from very far away when Zain was clearly in the air. Now, if a Marth conditions a Sheik to come in and they preemptively SH and punish with Dair, that's fine(good damage too!). However I don't think I will personally be considering it a common tool in the matchup right now since it is typically hard to get most Sheiks to push inward. If you can get them to come in with dash attack or boost grab then go for it.

 

[Kopaka]

It's pretty normal stuff in any fighting game. The basics of it are character knowledge, threatening range, and conditioning. Character knowledge is stuff like what your best options are and how they interact. So for Marth, running Dtilt vs running rising Fair vs running grab each cover specific options, with people learning to skew more towards the first two normally and adding the third occasionally. For threatening range, it's like what I described for Pikachu that people don't think about much which is the full neutral distance you can fight and react from. This usually puts you fairly far away from the opponent so you need compound movement to get in or get them to come in. Threatening range is determined by seeing someone's fastest+biggest attacks combined(so fastest isn't always best and biggest isn't but moves that are pretty good on both) plus movement speed to set those things up. So for Fox it's sort of like dash SH Nair range, but since Fox can do different things out of a dash you need a little time to confirm the dash, so you need to back the space up further than dash SH Nair. Finally for conditioning, it's basically taking advantage of memory and associations people make. If the Fox in the example I just used SH Nairs in and gets punished when I wait for him to come in, then the next time I wait and he dashes forward I shouldn't expect a SH Nair(at least not at the same spacing and timing) since even a decent player will try something different in response to similar stimuli. This isn't always true(we all have consistent habits that can hurt us after all), but it's a great rule of thumb.

Eventually you don't need to take massive risks to get some information or some stage position. You just need to understand the things I said above well and you can force the opponent back/get hits with effective threats/conditioning. I'm not saying you can be risk-free or that massive risks are wrong, but certainly we all need some balance in our play and higher risk tends to be problematic the more one skews toward it. Learning to take stage through threats becomes extremely important then.

Hope that helps!

Alright guys, we can all stop going in this thread now because PP has just answered Melee.