Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[DuskMarthWater]

Yeah, empty hopping can be useful too. But honestly, punishing floaties above you is really a test of how good you are at the baiting and waiting game; the skilled ones are looking for you to rush up there and smack them with an aerial, believe me. Sometimes that will work and they'll take the hit, other times they'll up b or float away and be tricky with their jumps, or they'll air dodge (Peach has obnoxious floating tricks too), and often if you don't play patiently enough they will find a chance to counterattack you before you get your punish off. You can't be so willing to punish that you put yourself in a bad situation. So baiting and watching them, looking for an opening, is what you should practice. It comes with patience and time; being able to force your opponent to do what you want them to (even when they think they have a selection of many options, they really all can be reacted to and lead to the same conclusion) is a very difficult skill to master.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't remember when this was, though it may have been Apex 2015 PPMD vs Armada (Marth vs Peach) on FD, when one of the commentators spoke about how PPMD wins the neutral over and over again, but he can't get those earlier KOs he achieves on just about everybody else because Armada's survival DI with Peach is too good. It's just a super patient game you have to play.

 

[CyberZixx]

How do I avoid getting shine spiked early precent after getting shined off stage. I lost two stocks game one of a set this way last tournament and ended up losing the set.

 

[DeadPigeon]

How do I avoid getting shine spiked early precent after getting shined off stage. I lost two stocks game one of a set this way last tournament and ended up losing the set.

Fair them. If you hit them, see if you can hit them with your upb

 

[CyberZixx]

It never seemed like I could even act out of it. I must of been slow and giving it too much respect

 

[Bones0]

It never seemed like I could even act out of it. I must of been slow and giving it too much respect

If you get shined on the ground by the edge, you have to fast fall down as soon as you're airborne to ensure that you grab the ledge. It's really hard to time, but once you can do it shines become way less threatening at the edge. If you're in the air, all you can really do is make sure to use your DJ, side-B, fair, airdodge, and up-B properly. Don't swing at Fox if he is shielding, and stay out of the dropzone aerial if he is close enough to run off and shine you before you grab the ledge.

 

[vexoskeleton]

If you get shined on the ground by the edge, you have to fast fall down as soon as you're airborne to ensure that you grab the ledge. It's really hard to time, but once you can do it shines become way less threatening at the edge. If you're in the air, all you can really do is make sure to use your DJ, side-B, fair, airdodge, and up-B properly. Don't swing at Fox if he is shielding, and stay out of the dropzone aerial if he is close enough to run off and shine you before you grab the ledge.

i found practicing wave dash back ff to ledge gives you the timing pretty well and you'll probably use the technique at sometime because its usually the fastest way to reliably grab ledge from stage.

 

[Roche_CL]

I had the same problem for years.
But! I could master that was with 20xx, you tell the machine to shine Oos (with infinite shield on), then you throw fox near the edge, then jab the shield and fox will automatically shine you and throw you away, then you time the Down stick to fastfall, repeat as many time as you want. Was the best way to practice and now I almost never miss that

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Recently decided to switch mains for a little bit. Marth has always been my best secondary, so I decided I want to see if I could get better results with Marth within 6 months of only playing him than I've been getting with Ganon.

So I have a question about punishing fast fallers on platforms. Generally after I've thrown or hit someone onto a platform so they're in a knockdown situation, I short hop and delay a uair so I get the tipper hit. And then if that misses, I utilt. And then I pretty much just try to juggle/combo from there. But I've noticed that some Marths go for a nair often. What situations would call for the nair and what situations would call for my approach? My thinking is low percents go for the uair utilt while at mid to higher percents go for hte nair to get them off stage.

 

[AirFair]

I notice that nair is sometimes used as well. Whenever I cover a platform with a nair, I usually do it to get them offstage, or dead, since it covers both sides. As for combos or juggles, I feel like uair can combo into more percent and finishers like fsmash, and even nair from that.

 

[AudioSilver]

Tipper Up Air can also combo into a Ken Combo, depending on DI.

 

[_trix_]

Another good use for nair is to use it to hit them to the other platform. However, you have to have a decent read on their di. One trick I find very very useful is to expect them to DI the way they tech, so if they tech toward the center of the stage on the platform, I can assume that, if their like most players, they're gonna tech that way and if they're at like 40-60% I can catch them on the other platform. There are also many other good use for the knowledge that people tend to DI the way they tech. You can use nair/reverse up b/tipper fsmash if they tech towards the edge when they're on the platform, and kill them at really low percentage because they're DIng away.

 

[BlueX]

What are Marth's bread and butter moves/combos? I don't really know any of the starter combos. I always go for an dashdance Up-Throw and do a really long Up-Air combo.

 

[CyberZixx]

Marth lacks consistent punish options and nothing is always guaranteed. there are many variables and learning to combo is based of situational awareness, reading opponent as much as understanding your options and executing them like in a traditional fighting game.

In general though upair and fair are his best moves for continuing combo strings while fsmash/dair/upb are his best moves for ending them. A good philosophy is that percent is not the objective of your combo. For instance if you are doing an upair string and you could get two more upairs for more damage, but say they would then be too high % to continue a combo, then it would be better to say go for nair instead to knock them off stage for edgeguard. it is very important to be aware of your combos and what would give you the best stage position/most likely to kill with marth as he lacks basic kill confirms like say fox who can jab upsmash or shine upsmash kill regardless of percent.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Dr Peepee do you know if it is possible for space animals to smash DI tech a PERFECTLY timed up tilt when above you on a platform, after they have initially teched? As in, you get an up throw and they tech the platform, you read the tech into utilt or uair. I have seen Armada and many other players crouch cancel the up air, and SDI both utilts and uairs into tech. But are they unable to SDI the utilt into tech if you time it right? I've been experimenting and it appears that the uair doesn't negate the SDI (I'm going to test it again this afternoon actually), but the utilt seems to not allow them to get it, if you time it right. Have you found the same thing? If that's actually a thing, I'll be stoked.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been playing with this too and I think the spacie just needs to tech early and they can tech the following hit as well. BOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

What should my approach/neutral game look like against a laser-heavy Fox? When they have the lead, dash dancing does no good because they aren't approaching. If I run in, they bair me or grab me, if I run in and dash dance in a range where I can threaten attacks, they just SHFFL nair or keep lasering. It never ceases to make me feel like a dumb***. They just totally dictate the pace of the match. How do I take it back?

 

[FE_Hector]

Either grab them while they're in the process of lasering you, or just bait them out better. Sounds like the issue is more that you're playing against a far better player fundamentally than you are. Just practicing is probably what you're going to have to do right now.

 

[AirFair]

Dash forward threatens the jump, since you can grab or fair their lasering. Or you could dash forward and watch what they do. It's up to you.

 

[AudioSilver]

Down Tilt can sometimes interrupt Fox's lasers. Tipper Down Tilt can also stop Fox's attacks.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I've been playing with this too and I think the spacie just needs to tech early and they can tech the following hit as well. BOOOOOOOOOOO

Wellp. That sucks. Broken animals is broken. It's okay though, Marth can still...fix...them. *Ahem* Yes. No space animal babies please.

The question asked earlier about laser heavy Fox, to be on the current topic. I personally think that when Fox is focused on heavy lasers it's difficult for them to switch to offense since they're being aggressively defensive (lol), which, in a sense, makes them vulnerable. That obviously doesn't mean you can just run in and do whatever you want to counter the defense, but it does mean you have to step up the bait game. If you know a bair is coming, then it's time to bait it out and then find your opening to grab, fsmash tipper, fair nair them into the air or whatever, just as an example. It really tests your definition of the word "patient".

 

[A_Reverie]

Everyone needs to know: The thread title changed again. Long live the tiara.

 

[Dr Peepee]

One day I must get Cactuar to post again

Edit: So this post has something of substance, people should adopt that run forward into retreating Fairs that Druggedfox has done with Marth. If people respect it then you can just run forward for free and if they challenge it they get hit. Even if they wait until you're in lag after Fair ends and you whiff it's at most a mixup situation after landing.

 

[A_Reverie]

One day I must get Cactuar to post again

Buy him a tiara.

 

[Darth Tobito]

What are the best ways to try and set up a Ken combo? I don't have a problem pulling it off but finding a way to set one up is difficult.

 

[A_Reverie]

What are the best ways to try and set up a Ken combo? I don't have a problem pulling it off but finding a way to set one up is difficult.

The thing about Marth is that there's not a lot of "guaranteed" stuff, so setting up something specific like a Ken combo is more about situational awareness. The best way I can think of to increase your odds of getting a Ken combo would be to punish into a juggle on your opponent. From there, it's dependent on weight, fall speed, DI, and platform height. These factors will influence whether or not you can combo from your juggle and into the F-air you need to Ken combo with. Also make note of which hitbox of F-air you need to hit with on each of the characters. For example, spacies require a tipper F-air while with floaties it takes a center hit. Also keep in mind your other option for finishing after a F-air: Reverse Up-B. You'll get this more on floaties in mid-percents if you happen to tipper with your F-air. After the jump you'd normally use to line up your D-air, if they're in front of you but too high for the D-air to spike, just use Reverse Up-B instead.

 

[FE_Hector]

A_Reverie seems to know his stuff about Ken Combos. To be completely honest, if I get a Ken Combo setup, I take it. I don't NEED it in order to convert, though, so I haven't done research into getting it for that exact reason. If the fair hits them out, I'll just string on some bairs where possible, edgehog, or fsmash them back off. Long as they're offstage, you're in a good position.

 

[_trix_]

Hey ppmd how do you deal with pressure so well? Also how do you make your mindset so good in general?

 

[_trix_]

Also, one more unrelated question, how should I try to space myself and my DDing against sheik?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey ppmd how do you deal with pressure so well? Also how do you make your mindset so good in general?

I learned things and then observed where I went wrong and learned more about it. Then I meditated to have clarity of thought. If you want more specific answers then ask more specific questions.

Also, one more unrelated question, how should I try to space myself and my DDing against sheik?

Space at tipper WD Dtilt range. If Sheik isn't coming in(dash attack/boost grab) much you can space a bit closer than that.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Space at tipper WD Dtilt range. If Sheik isn't coming in(dash attack/boost grab) much you can space a bit closer than that.

What length wd?

Also what do you (anyone can answer this if they want, not just pp) think about using pivot dtilt in an aggressive way out of Marth's dash dance? As in, dash toward but pivot to face the same direction and dtilt. Could one effectively use this in the Sheik matchup?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I thought about this and I'll just say close to full length WD, although it's probably best to be just outside of being able to hit them with this move for full safety. I should have clarified earlier.

I don't believe in pivot Dtilt.

 

[FE_Hector]

I really don't think that pivot dtilt is that useful of a tool. It's got a ridiculously tiny window both in terms of timing and movement of the control stick, and more than that, WD grab/pivot grab both work just fine. Basically, if we were capable TAS-level inputs, it might be useful.

 

[A_Reverie]

I don't believe in pivot Dtilt.

Good call. Pivot d-tilt goes against the grain on what gives Marth so much of his ability to space and move with nearly unmatched freedom. I feel like focusing so much on pivot options hamstrings mobility. The difficulty and inconsistency of input is a real liability for a character that's so focused on control and flow.

Marth's wavedash is so fantastic that it would be silly to choose pivoting simply to get a D-tilt out a few frames quicker. It shouldn't be forgotten that Marth often doesn't need to connect with a D-tilt in order for it to have an effect on the opponent. The threat of Marth's sword and making your opponent respect it is what will gain you stage control and force your opponent to play your game. Marth's combination of dash dance and wavedash to create elusive movement patterns complements this.

 

[A_Reverie]

Also, one more unrelated question, how should I try to space myself and my DDing against sheik?

Forgot to weigh in on this. PPMD mentions WD d-tilt range which is spot on, but the absolute no-no zone for me is her aerial needle spacings. If you're in the wrong place here you'll get grabbed. Watch when Sheik is on platforms.

 

[krazyzyko]

How do I get on stage from the edge safely vs a shine spiky Fox?

 

[A_Reverie]

How do I get on stage from the edge safely vs a shine spiky Fox?

Properly stalling is one way. Your stall can still be shined but you can mix up your timing. If you think you're about to get shined just choose a get-up option, attack with an aerial from the ledge, or even ledge dash and take stage control back. Rolling is a good option because a lot of Fox players like to shine, then turn around and double-jump into a B-air to cover another option.

 

[outofphase]

One day I must get Cactuar to post again

Edit: So this post has something of substance, people should adopt that run forward into retreating Fairs that Druggedfox has done with Marth. If people respect it then you can just run forward for free and if they challenge it they get hit. Even if they wait until you're in lag after Fair ends and you whiff it's at most a mixup situation after landing.

I already do this a decent amount and it is really good against some characters, but against others, mainly spacies, it seems kinda meh. Could you extrapolate a bit or give a specific example? It seems to me like if they don't respect it, you just get rocked because spacie mixups are just too strong and if they wait for the whiff they can get into your space and go on the offensive. I do have a tough time dealing with spacies in close proximity, so it could just be that its less a mixup and more an advantage for them that gives me the impression it isn't so good, especially vs. bold Falcos who will just shoot a laser from the corner once they see the drift away.

Also, I would love it for Cactus to start posting here, or just do some in-depth Marth stuff on his stream. I think his Marth might be my favorite character anybody has, save Mango's old Falco.

 

[dreamhouse]

I think the real value of pivot d tilt is it makes it possible to put out a d tilt out of dash dance faster, making it a better reactionary tool. The pivot d tilt isn't that hard for me, and I think I could get it down with practice, but doing it out of a dash dance where it's actually useful is much harder.

For where I'm at I get a lot more use per time spent out of other tech like pivot aerials. I'll practice pivot d tilts more when I don't have so many other things that are easier that provide more benefit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I already do this a decent amount and it is really good against some characters, but against others, mainly spacies, it seems kinda meh. Could you extrapolate a bit or give a specific example? It seems to me like if they don't respect it, you just get rocked because spacie mixups are just too strong and if they wait for the whiff they can get into your space and go on the offensive. I do have a tough time dealing with spacies in close proximity, so it could just be that its less a mixup and more an advantage for them that gives me the impression it isn't so good, especially vs. bold Falcos who will just shoot a laser from the corner once they see the drift away.

Also, I would love it for Cactus to start posting here, or just do some in-depth Marth stuff on his stream. I think his Marth might be my favorite character anybody has, save Mango's old Falco.

Well Cactus mains Marth again, so you should check his stream out often.

This technique should be reasonably effective vs Fox. Can you describe how exactly it failed vs him? How close were you and what did you get punished by? What could you have done about it?

Vs Falco, it's certainly more the case I wouldn't use this as much since lasers are more likely to disrupt it. Still, doing it sometimes and then DJ to a platform/waveland back/Fair out of getting hit by laser can be useful I think.

I would most prefer to use this vs Fox/Falcon I think, since I'm more likely to hit those characters(they run in/throw out moves a solid amount)/need to slow them down even if it doesn't work. I don't think I would use this much in the Marth ditto since committing to any lag in that matchup is quite a risk in my experience.