Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Socrates]

I decided to do some testing with jab in the falco mu, and I honestly can't believe I haven't been implemented this to my gameplan far earlier than before. It practically beats all of Falco's approaches, and it's pretty hard for Falco to act immediately out of it or CC especially when tippered. I think the biggest plus of this tool is that it forces Falco to actually think. While I'm still exploring more of this tool, I found that that various ways Falco can beat my jabs is being somehow right outside of the range and dairing, DD a bit and try to find openings or FH and try to use platforms to weave around me. The FH and dair I found that a simple answer could be just jumping after the FH and fair and dash back vs dair. As for dash dancing, I'm not sure what exactly are the best options since the Falco isn't exactly approaching but still is threatening space. Would perhaps WD jab beat this, and the WD would allow me to see what the Falco does?

Also, I found that tipper jab kind of destroys Falco in the corner. I need to test this further, but using some jabs literally beats everything Falco can do out of the corner including SH dair, which you noted was a slight problem previously when cornering Falco. Falco can try to laser out of the corner, but again jab in place beats all of Falco's approaches. The only thing Falco can do is roll, which is easily reactable. The only problem is that I'm not sure if I can jab Falco's shield and grab him if Falco buffers roll, in which I can just apply less is more principle when the Falco recognizes my jab threat. Thoughts?

With this whole take laser jab, I think take laser dash back is kinda a worse version oof take laser jab. For now, I have been using dash back in anticipation that Falco might use dair to beat some of my jab timings or wavedash jab threat. I only think dash back is really only good for netting grabs, which is a very high reward in it of itself to warrant continued used, but it's not as good as a tool as I previously thought. I'm still exploring more about my tools vs. Falco as I have only really tested it out rather recently, but for the first time in awhile in addition for take laser jabs with my anti-Falco toolkit, I feel like I'm playing the mu honestly rather than gimmicking and looking for gimps.


Additional questions I have is regarding juggling. For fastfallers, I'm often not sure how to catch them on the way down especially when they dair on the way down alongside with their ff and airdodge mixups. This is especially problematic when Falco dairs on his way down and I'm not sure how to intercept it when he gets down towards top platform. Are there important components for juggling fastfallers I'm not aware of, or is it a read on how they think they will come down?
For floaties, I have started to notice some patterns as how they like to come down, which perhaps might be a noob thing to do at our levels. When they fall towards me, more often than not they attack on the way down in which I abuse with SH to make them think I'll attack then FF WD fsmash or dash fair. When they fall away from me, I go ahead and stay diagonal to them and try to fair them. Am I simply abusing common habits that they could change, or is me reacting to drift enough to grasp the principle of Marth juggling?


Final question is regarding Peach throws. There are times where I attempt to throw them in a corner, and they DI in a way where they immediately float and nair me when I'm primed to tech chase. Is it a read that I need to make to fsmash them, or are there cues for me to react?

Additionally, I have some issues with Peach crouching to immediately DA or something to send a false positive that they're pulling turnip, which is especially effective to me since I play the mu very reactively whenever Peach pulls turnip to immediate dtilt or grab. I think this is something I have to read on my part, or do you think it's worth it for me to study the animation difference between crouch and pulling turnip?

I’ve been messing around against falco as well, trying to get a feel for the laser stun timing on hit and training myself with various options and whatnot. I’ve found take laser jab works really well on approach, but only when they’re a certain distance away from you so that it either tippers or almost tippers. If they’re any closer than that they can hold down at low percents with almost no lag afterwards. This range is where dash back comes in handy. If you know they’re going to nair/dair the grab is free, otherwise dash back > SH bair covers them doing another approaching laser. Worst case scenario is they’re lasering you with your back to the ledge so you can’t dash back, in that situation the only option i see is try to jab if they’re far enough away or shield.

Edit: PP I’ve been meaning to ask this even though I’m sure it’s been brought up. I feel really comfortable in slow matchups like peach, IC’s, and Samus. Conversely, I usually underperform against spacies and tend to get uncomfortable/overwhelmed with the speed. I feel better with the slower matchups because i feel like i have way more time to observe and actually apply the concepts i know. Where as with spacies everything happens so fast and i feel like i need to move right now or I’m going to get run over.

I think this might be due to my reaction times? I’ve been struggling to find a way to get over this because it seems like something that just comes with playing against people a lot, but I don’t get the chance to play against fast characters a ton so my only real experience is in tournaments.

 

[Kyomaku]

Hi PP, I've got a MU related question for you regarding Marth vs Yoshi and everyone else that has ideas or knows something is very welcome to share their knowledge as well.

Basically, in the matchup I feel very lost at the moment in every aspect of it and every single set I've watched thus far from top Marths (Rishi, Zain, Tai etc) against Amsa, well they got destroyed and looked like they didn't know the matchup, either, so here's my question:

Do you have any experience against Yoshi in the neutral, edgeguarding or punishgame that you can share with me? How do I approach this matchup? I know this is a broad question, but I don't want my inexperience to interfer with the question and would prefer as much info as possible. I'll still share my current experiences though, but don't let those paragraphs stop you from sharing useful info that I didn't directly ask for.

Punishgame thus far seems like, either you can break his superarmor and always tipper well to actually be able to do so (considering % are good enough for it), or you take a single hit and then you back off for another round of neutral, taking centre stage and trying to hold it.

Edgeguarding, he either djs through your hitbox, which can easily mess up spacing so his superarmor mostly works, but sometimes also cancels his DJ with an attack, which can make it harder to predict where he'll be. Maybe I can add some educated guesses here to get a kill, waiting out his DJ cancel so his superarmor is gone or trying to catch him as he lands from his DJ? I didn't have sucess with it, yet, but thats mostly a lack of practice with his weird dj. Frequently lives to 150-180%..

Neutral, anything seems risky as you either get cc'ed or superarmored. I notice I can get grabs quite easily, as they want to rely on those tools, but Marth doesn't seem to have a good punishgame off of grab vs Yoshi (my impression atm, please tell me how to punish optimally off of a grab vs Yoshi!), making it an option that works often but the risk / reward is still not favorable. I can also land quite a lot of fairs/dtilts etc in neutral, but so far it seems like Yoshi only really needs 1-2 openings in neutral to take a stock from Marth and eventually Yoshi reads my timing once or twice. I'm getting the impression I need to work much more with my movement here to stay safer and focus more on whiffpunishing his lag, maybe, so that his superarmor isn't active? But I think this'll also open me up to his mixups and getting hit even once is already quite dangerous. When I tried this, I mostly lost stage control, got some hits, but I was back in a corner eventually. I think I need to figure out how to properly hold stage vs a Yoshi pushing forward. It just doesn't seem like Yoshi cares about Marths threats.

Sorry for the great wall of text, but I'll hopefully be able to convert this wall into one that zones out Yoshi and keeps my Marth safe and sound.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I decided to do some testing with jab in the falco mu, and I honestly can't believe I haven't been implemented this to my gameplan far earlier than before. It practically beats all of Falco's approaches, and it's pretty hard for Falco to act immediately out of it or CC especially when tippered. I think the biggest plus of this tool is that it forces Falco to actually think. While I'm still exploring more of this tool, I found that that various ways Falco can beat my jabs is being somehow right outside of the range and dairing, DD a bit and try to find openings or FH and try to use platforms to weave around me. The FH and dair I found that a simple answer could be just jumping after the FH and fair and dash back vs dair. As for dash dancing, I'm not sure what exactly are the best options since the Falco isn't exactly approaching but still is threatening space. Would perhaps WD jab beat this, and the WD would allow me to see what the Falco does?

Also, I found that tipper jab kind of destroys Falco in the corner. I need to test this further, but using some jabs literally beats everything Falco can do out of the corner including SH dair, which you noted was a slight problem previously when cornering Falco. Falco can try to laser out of the corner, but again jab in place beats all of Falco's approaches. The only thing Falco can do is roll, which is easily reactable. The only problem is that I'm not sure if I can jab Falco's shield and grab him if Falco buffers roll, in which I can just apply less is more principle when the Falco recognizes my jab threat. Thoughts?

With this whole take laser jab, I think take laser dash back is kinda a worse version oof take laser jab. For now, I have been using dash back in anticipation that Falco might use dair to beat some of my jab timings or wavedash jab threat. I only think dash back is really only good for netting grabs, which is a very high reward in it of itself to warrant continued used, but it's not as good as a tool as I previously thought. I'm still exploring more about my tools vs. Falco as I have only really tested it out rather recently, but for the first time in awhile in addition for take laser jabs with my anti-Falco toolkit, I feel like I'm playing the mu honestly rather than gimmicking and looking for gimps.


Additional questions I have is regarding juggling. For fastfallers, I'm often not sure how to catch them on the way down especially when they dair on the way down alongside with their ff and airdodge mixups. This is especially problematic when Falco dairs on his way down and I'm not sure how to intercept it when he gets down towards top platform. Are there important components for juggling fastfallers I'm not aware of, or is it a read on how they think they will come down?
For floaties, I have started to notice some patterns as how they like to come down, which perhaps might be a noob thing to do at our levels. When they fall towards me, more often than not they attack on the way down in which I abuse with SH to make them think I'll attack then FF WD fsmash or dash fair. When they fall away from me, I go ahead and stay diagonal to them and try to fair them. Am I simply abusing common habits that they could change, or is me reacting to drift enough to grasp the principle of Marth juggling?


Final question is regarding Peach throws. There are times where I attempt to throw them in a corner, and they DI in a way where they immediately float and nair me when I'm primed to tech chase. Is it a read that I need to make to fsmash them, or are there cues for me to react?

Additionally, I have some issues with Peach crouching to immediately DA or something to send a false positive that they're pulling turnip, which is especially effective to me since I play the mu very reactively whenever Peach pulls turnip to immediate dtilt or grab. I think this is something I have to read on my part, or do you think it's worth it for me to study the animation difference between crouch and pulling turnip?

Yeah man jab beats everything besides Fsmash if it's spaced, so good. Miss a jab, do another jab and that also beats approaches. This can get kinda bad to rely on too much for multi jabs lol but still it's great.

I messed around with waiting and then Dair'ing to approach, but iirc second jab beats that. If not then you just mix a little more dash back/observe after taking laser to see what happens.

Anyway, when Falco begins to DD you CAN WD jab and that hits a lot of what he does, but at that point you can get your DD back as well which lets you realllly threaten him and I often prefer to do that.

Yeah jab destroys cornered Falco for sure though it can make him more prone to FH or waiting then yoloing into you depending on space. If you're hitting his shield, then yeah jab is still good but he can probably buffer roll behind you somewhat safely. Not sure though, but at that point you don't need to jab if you know he's going to shield since he can't do anything OOS.

If you want to beat Falco Dair, either get beside him with Bair/Fair or punish his landing lag. You can also hit him before it comes out, or shield grab/shield drop punish it when possible. If you want to encourage Dair, all you have to do is get within Dair range somewhat below him. If not you just need to be a little more horizontal to him. Hard to say more without specifics.

You're beating what is commonly done and is more complex at higher levels, but it's also probable that you're abusing good Marth stuff too. If you'd like, you can watch Armada or other Peaches in a juggle position and guess what they do and see how you'd perform.

You can react to the throw DI in most cases, or at least I can so I'd think you can. Maybe it's just a practice thing, but at any rate knowing Peaches go for that is enough to get you more likely to respond well. I like it when they do this since it's a quicker punish.

Yeah maybe, and you could also give up some turnip pull direct punishes for pressure to more slowly/safely approach in case they DA instead as you learn the timings.

I’ve been messing around against falco as well, trying to get a feel for the laser stun timing on hit and training myself with various options and whatnot. I’ve found take laser jab works really well on approach, but only when they’re a certain distance away from you so that it either tippers or almost tippers. If they’re any closer than that they can hold down at low percents with almost no lag afterwards. This range is where dash back comes in handy. If you know they’re going to nair/dair the grab is free, otherwise dash back > SH bair covers them doing another approaching laser. Worst case scenario is they’re lasering you with your back to the ledge so you can’t dash back, in that situation the only option i see is try to jab if they’re far enough away or shield.

Edit: PP I’ve been meaning to ask this even though I’m sure it’s been brought up. I feel really comfortable in slow matchups like peach, IC’s, and Samus. Conversely, I usually underperform against spacies and tend to get uncomfortable/overwhelmed with the speed. I feel better with the slower matchups because i feel like i have way more time to observe and actually apply the concepts i know. Where as with spacies everything happens so fast and i feel like i need to move right now or I’m going to get run over.

I think this might be due to my reaction times? I’ve been struggling to find a way to get over this because it seems like something that just comes with playing against people a lot, but I don’t get the chance to play against fast characters a ton so my only real experience is in tournaments.

You may benefit from playing more defense or initially doing so to slow the pace down in matches. More zoning, more WD back. You would also benefit from seeing how these spacies approach and fight and then practice on your own vs 20XX bots doing those options so you can at least be comfortable seeing and playing around them.

Hi PP, I've got a MU related question for you regarding Marth vs Yoshi and everyone else that has ideas or knows something is very welcome to share their knowledge as well.

Basically, in the matchup I feel very lost at the moment in every aspect of it and every single set I've watched thus far from top Marths (Rishi, Zain, Tai etc) against Amsa, well they got destroyed and looked like they didn't know the matchup, either, so here's my question:

Do you have any experience against Yoshi in the neutral, edgeguarding or punishgame that you can share with me? How do I approach this matchup? I know this is a broad question, but I don't want my inexperience to interfer with the question and would prefer as much info as possible. I'll still share my current experiences though, but don't let those paragraphs stop you from sharing useful info that I didn't directly ask for.

Punishgame thus far seems like, either you can break his superarmor and always tipper well to actually be able to do so (considering % are good enough for it), or you take a single hit and then you back off for another round of neutral, taking centre stage and trying to hold it.

Edgeguarding, he either djs through your hitbox, which can easily mess up spacing so his superarmor mostly works, but sometimes also cancels his DJ with an attack, which can make it harder to predict where he'll be. Maybe I can add some educated guesses here to get a kill, waiting out his DJ cancel so his superarmor is gone or trying to catch him as he lands from his DJ? I didn't have sucess with it, yet, but thats mostly a lack of practice with his weird dj. Frequently lives to 150-180%..

Neutral, anything seems risky as you either get cc'ed or superarmored. I notice I can get grabs quite easily, as they want to rely on those tools, but Marth doesn't seem to have a good punishgame off of grab vs Yoshi (my impression atm, please tell me how to punish optimally off of a grab vs Yoshi!), making it an option that works often but the risk / reward is still not favorable. I can also land quite a lot of fairs/dtilts etc in neutral, but so far it seems like Yoshi only really needs 1-2 openings in neutral to take a stock from Marth and eventually Yoshi reads my timing once or twice. I'm getting the impression I need to work much more with my movement here to stay safer and focus more on whiffpunishing his lag, maybe, so that his superarmor isn't active? But I think this'll also open me up to his mixups and getting hit even once is already quite dangerous. When I tried this, I mostly lost stage control, got some hits, but I was back in a corner eventually. I think I need to figure out how to properly hold stage vs a Yoshi pushing forward. It just doesn't seem like Yoshi cares about Marths threats.

Sorry for the great wall of text, but I'll hopefully be able to convert this wall into one that zones out Yoshi and keeps my Marth safe and sound.

Well first of all, lets keep in mind Marth heavily outranges Yoshi. This means if you wanted to play more defense, you'd actually give him a pretty hard time. It also means if Yoshi ever DJC approaches he could be in a lot of trouble since you could easily juggle and push him offstage to kill him. So right away we see opportunities. Grabs help you get this opportunity since Yoshi has to DJ to get away from extra hits, so he either takes those hits without using DJ, or he DJs away and then Marth can hit him as his armor ends or he lands on a platform. I'm speaking mainly about Fthrow/Dthrow. Uthrow is great on FD too though since Yoshi can't escape the sword with platforms then, but even so Fthrow/Dthrow may be better sometimes. I like neutral B to break his armor at higher percents for edgeguards/kills. If he's sitting on the ground, then you will definitely need to change up your timings with aerials and Dtilt, but again let's remember he can't do much to you either and you can still grab well.

That should get you started I think. There is nuance here that would be helpful to both of us but I haven't played Amsa with Marth ever so I don't know it. This is just from playing Twitch's Yoshi a little lol.

 

[Kyomaku]

I can summarize that pretty much as waiting and observing DJ armor habits to look for strong openings. Grabs, that are obtained in abundance vs yoshi (atm) can give me consistent opportunitites to observe dj habits. From initial experience on Fthrow/Dthrow, he either DI's into the techchase or a direct regrab or he tries jumping out, if he does an dj aerial there and I delay my attack to hit after his hitbox, afaik his superarmor should be off and I should win cause sword, which COULD be a zero to death, given he has no jump and no up b. Assuming he doesn't cancel his DJ with an attack, he'll go super high, so I can chase his landing and if he accepts and dislikes these mixups, he'll have to give me a techchase, which is also very good.

Once you know what you want to look out for, waiting and observing can become so powerful! I'll test how this goes and maybe report back after getting a bit more experience with this. After thinking about this MU more, I definitely see the potential. Thanks PP!

 

[maclo4]

Have you tested what ranges dash back and jab work at? cause I feel like the range that you can dash back from after they laser is decently closer than the range that jab works from. I could be wrong but thats how it feels to me. So idk if its exactly true to say dash back is just a worse option than jab. I might test this tonight and lyk if im wrong but thats my gut

Edit: I just saw PP's response about double jab. I'll def have to try that more because the falco I play the most will wait for my jab then go in right after and that'd be sick if double jab beats that somewhat reliably

 

[maclo4]

Okay I tested double jab and dash back and
1. dash back does work at closer range than jab generally
2. falco def can sneak in after the first jab pretty easily if you try to double jab. Not sure how easy it is to react to but it felt like the window was decently big.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh so double jab does lose to waiting and attacking? I need to retest that outside of matches then. That does give Falco a bit more of an advantage when he hits a laser then, but it still means he can't rush in normally, so that's pretty good. It probably means you need to wait and react with dash back a little more instead of opting for jab so often then, and by extension you can double jab when they hesitantly confirm you didn't just dash back/wait/single jab.

 

[maclo4]

Yea i just played a falco on netplay and was playing around with jab more and he punished jab by waiting after laser then going in a lot of times. So it's definitely doable for falco to punish jab if they dont hesitate

 

[YNZ]

Wait maclo4 when you said that the falco you played snuck in an attack between your first and second jab, was it a full hop dair/aerial or was it a grounded attack? I’ve also been testing out jab/double jab and I thought the only attacks a falco can get out between the two jabs are full hop aerials (sh laser and most grounded attacks / short hops can get stuffed by the 2nd jab if timed right I think-like if the 2nd jab stuffs his SH) Falco can mix it up though by shielding 2nd jab or rolling behind if you don’t do the fastest multi jab.

If full hop aerials are the attacks the falco is doing I think you have enough time to shield or uptilt them after the jab (Could be wrong since I’ve really only been playing level 9 20xx cpus and my goofy falco buddy)

Can anyone let me know if I’m wrong or right on this? Not entirely sure but this is what I’ve seen while playing (my opponents are probably not the best)

Edit: I think I’ve only really tested this for non tipper jabs at percents between like 30 and 120 ish. At earlier percents thy can prob CC a non tipper jab and shine /dtilt it and at high percents it sends them too far I think

 

[maclo4]

He was just sh dairing, don't wanna spread misinformation tho so feel free to check me. All I did to test was record a falco doing laser -> wait -> sh dair, then as marth i would take laser then double jab at different timings/spacing and if I did the earliest timing my first jab would barely miss and my second wouldnt come out in time before his dair hit me

 

[YNZ]

Ohh alright gotcha! Thanks! I think I wrongly assumed that u meant that the falco already got hit by the first jab (like you already landed a WD in take laser jab) and the falco was trying to attack you right after/shortly getting out of hitstun. But yea I’ve experienced that too I’m pretty sure your info is correct

 

[maclo4]

ohh yea i just meant when the first one misses. But I swear if you jab falco real close to you (poorly spaced) he can shine you first. I havent tested tho

 

[YNZ]

Ooh yea agreed I think at low percents (or maybe at slightly higher percents too) he can do that for the non tippered ones. But I also haven’t tested it that well! If anyone’s got good info on this let us know!

Edit: Also, anyone know if there are any guaranteed follow ups on a jab hitting (Or guaranteed follow ups on certain DIs)? Or is the point of the jab to reset neutral?

 

[Kotastic]

https://youtu.be/6tHyHW_o7mU?t=1h52m42s

This is commonly a situation I usually get blown up by when I play Falco especially and Fox to a lesser extent. What would you have done differently in this scenario?

Additionally upon further evaluation of take laser jab, I found it to be a very useful tool to at least getting Falcos to not mindlessly approach. However, I found that this leaves me vulnerable to other approach tools Falco has, particularly laser ftilt or DA, in which I almost lost to a Falco that almost exclusively used those after a laser. What are strong mixups I could do to counteract those?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I could have hit him out of his DJ after landing or even after dashing back. I could have hit him as he fell with laser. I could have PS'd the laser, especially since I was dashing back. I could have moved in and say retreating Fair'd or just Nair'd in place since the laser looks like it went over my dashing head. I assume that's most of what you're asking about. The main thing against these vertical games is to either get them as they fake/come down or play the position afterward(again immediately beating what they do or beating what comes next). On BF it can be easier since side platforms cover your head and also the top platform is so high up that you have extra time to see what they're doing.

DA you can hold down for quite a while, and I'm unsure if you can ASDI down grab Ftilt while his foot is still extended or not, but that's worth considering. Dash back is pretty great vs those things though since you can just come back in after to punish Ftilt or just turnaround shield/double dash(or WD) away come back in grab vs DA. You could also do that thing other Falcos seem to complain about a lot and Nair over laser and that probably beats those options as well. If you just PS the laser this doesn't necessarily beat those things, but if you do it dashing in or in place instead of using dash away PS the threat of shield grab may discourage these attacks more.

 

[AirFair]

What can marth do to effectively fight fox when he's on the ledge? I played the same fox player from my last post in tournament again, and though I felt a little more prepared to fight his platform stuff, he started to use attacks from the ledge very often when we were playing on FD (which makes sense since there aren't any platforms that he can use). He would ledgedash and do invincible nairs, usmash, or FH. What I started to do to respond to this was back up out of the range of ledgedash nair/usmash and grab/hit him for doing them. But once he started to fh/laser when I backed up, I couldn't really punish it the same way. I might have been able to beat him for fh with an fh fair, but it felt like a hard commitment when he could mixup by doing ledgedash nair or something to beat me.

 

[Zorcey]

What can marth do to effectively fight fox when he's on the ledge? I played the same fox player from my last post in tournament again, and though I felt a little more prepared to fight his platform stuff, he started to use attacks from the ledge very often when we were playing on FD (which makes sense since there aren't any platforms that he can use). He would ledgedash and do invincible nairs, usmash, or FH. What I started to do to respond to this was back up out of the range of ledgedash nair/usmash and grab/hit him for doing them. But once he started to fh/laser when I backed up, I couldn't really punish it the same way. I might have been able to beat him for fh with an fh fair, but it felt like a hard commitment when he could mixup by doing ledgedash nair or something to beat me.

Something I’ve seen PP do is fake going in on the ledge to bait ledgedash (here's an example: https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=17m9s), which I’ve adopted. This prevents them from lasering and I think fadeback Fair would beat out FH too if you didn't want to Fsmash? If I had to guess if they're using these options you're backing up too much in the first place, and alleviating your pressure on the ledge too much. But yeah, take this for what it's worth lol.

Dr Peepee I had a really interesting experience the other day, where I turned on Melee to play some friendlies, and my perception of the game had radically changed: I suddenly saw everything in positions, rather than only a whole. (It's very difficult to describe well, but in light of it, everything I've ever heard about positions, options, data collection, etc., feels like it all went over my head, until now. It's just suddenly intuitive.) It made a lot of the studying I had done about "what beats what" synthesize into something very understandable, because I don't see options in a vacuum anymore, but as applied to the position being discussed. It's also turned data collection into something that seems intuitive rather than nebulous, and takes away lingering feelings of "randomness" in interactions. I've waited a few days to say anything about this to make sure it wasn't going to go away, and it hasn't. I suddenly see the game in an entirely different, deeper, way, and it's just kind of inexplicable, really. Is this because I've finally internalized these concepts?

Oh, and another thing I've noticed with this is that on days/times when I'm not feeling well or not focused, the game becomes even blurrier and more incomprehensible than ever, because I see more now. But I'm also much more okay/accepting of that than ever, because I'm starting to become more confident in what I know, and still trying to exhibit self-love and compassion. Overall I suppose I just want to share with everyone here, and ask what you think of all this?

 

[Jamisinon]

I feel like I'm still learning and slowly but surely grinding out Marth tech and get more and more efficient with it. I can WD fairly consistently (I know I should still grind it out a little more) but I'm having trouble implementing WD into my gameplay. I find that I only WD back to grab edge to edge guard but I never use WD in neutral. I'd appreciate any tips on how to better implement WD into my neutral game and punish game.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What can marth do to effectively fight fox when he's on the ledge? I played the same fox player from my last post in tournament again, and though I felt a little more prepared to fight his platform stuff, he started to use attacks from the ledge very often when we were playing on FD (which makes sense since there aren't any platforms that he can use). He would ledgedash and do invincible nairs, usmash, or FH. What I started to do to respond to this was back up out of the range of ledgedash nair/usmash and grab/hit him for doing them. But once he started to fh/laser when I backed up, I couldn't really punish it the same way. I might have been able to beat him for fh with an fh fair, but it felt like a hard commitment when he could mixup by doing ledgedash nair or something to beat me.

Yeah if you're backed up that far, you can't punish those edge FHs directly. However, there is a good side to this and that's that you can attack his landing and especially keep him cornered super well. You can also play in between spaces to beat the edgedash approach vs FH and then usually dash back but mix it with (dash) FH Fair'ing the FH. It might also help to play around with just how far away you need to be to punish these edgedashes.

Something I’ve seen PP do that I’ve adopted is fake going in on the ledge to bait ledgedash (here's an example: https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=17m9s), which I’ve adopted. This prevents them from lasering and I think fadeback Fair would beat out FH too if you didn't want to Fsmash? If I had to guess if they're using these option you're backing up too much in the first place, and not alleviating your pressure on the ledge too much. But yeah, take this for what it's worth lol.

Dr Peepee I had a really interesting experience the other day, where I turned on Melee to play some friendlies, and my perception of the game had radically changed: I suddenly saw everything in positions, rather than only a whole. (It's very difficult to describe well, but in light of it, everything I've ever heard about positions, options, data collection, etc., feels like it all went over my head, until now. It's just suddenly intuitive.) It made a lot of the studying I had done about "what beats what" synthesize into something very understandable, because I don't see options in a vacuum anymore, but as applied to the position being discussed. It's also turned data collection into something that seems intuitive rather than nebulous, and takes away lingering feelings of "randomness" in interactions. I've waited a few days to say anything about this to make sure it wasn't going to go away, and it hasn't. I suddenly see the game in an entirely different, deeper, way, and it's just kind of inexplicable, really. Is this because I've finally internalized these concepts?

Oh, and another thing I've noticed with this is that on days/times when I'm not feeling well or not focused, the game becomes even blurrier and more incomprehensible than ever, because I see more now. But I'm also much more okay/accepting of that than ever, because I'm starting to become more confident in what I know, and still trying to exhibit self-love and compassion. Overall I suppose I just want to share with everyone here, and ask what you think of all this?

Lmfao those WDs. Nice

Yes, this is EXACTLY what internalizing means! You go deeper, and things coalesce into an understandable whole. It's beyond words because it is exactly the process of going beyond words to a better understanding that you achieve this. Now you must build on top of this knowledge and continue to repeat the process. It's super fun.

There's a funny phenomenon about what you do and don't know. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know. So to me, there is a vast expanse of unknown things, and sometimes it makes me very afraid to give advice at all because I deeply question what I do know. Still I have to try! =p

I feel like I'm still learning and slowly but surely grinding out Marth tech and get more and more efficient with it. I can WD fairly consistently (I know I should still grind it out a little more) but I'm having trouble implementing WD into my gameplay. I find that I only WD back to grab edge to edge guard but I never use WD in neutral. I'd appreciate any tips on how to better implement WD into my neutral game and punish game.

It may help you to practice using WD with a tool like you would in neutral. Maybe you want to WD Dtilt, so you can practice that. Maybe you want to dash in WD back for info, so you can practice that. Eventually in matches you begin to default to these things you practice. It's kind of awkward at first but it makes sense as you do it.

 

[AirFair]

Yeah if you're backed up that far, you can't punish those edge FHs directly. However, there is a good side to this and that's that you can attack his landing and especially keep him cornered super well. You can also play in between spaces to beat the edgedash approach vs FH and then usually dash back but mix it with (dash) FH Fair'ing the FH. It might also help to play around with just how far away you need to be to punish these edgedashes.

So If I back up a certain distance to beat ledgedash nair, but I can beat ledgedash fh by being closer, playing in between spaces would mean that I am mixing up how far I back up or just staying in between those ranges?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can react to/predict edgedash Nair by backing up just as they would be able to edgedash and move back. Also you'd be in better position to threaten them unless they edgedashed pretty well, which becomes more likely as you begin to threaten their options better. Moving back as they come up means they can't be sure what option to use since they won't be able to try and hit a solitary target in most cases, whereas if you're just sitting farther away and stay farther away now they can at least plan for how to fight you since you don't put pressure on them to change.

 

[Kotastic]

Oh btw to clarify against Falco's laser --> DA/Ftilt, do you mean dash back before the laser connects? I find that it's particularly hard to simply take laser those followups, as I think ftilt in particular is a true combo.

I would like inputs regarding my movement. After my daily training of movement strings, I think I'm starting to get it. Every time I start my practice sessions, I start with group dash dancing, and gradually change my pattern. I visualize that if I'm further away from my opponent's TR, they're more likely to overshoot, so I do a long dash back feint to immediate dash in to cross up punish the overshoot. If I'm more inside my opponent's comfortable TR, then I do the standard whiff punish of long dash back or double dash back. If I'm really inside my opponent's TR, then I WD down to trick them into thinking I'm crossing up, and then visualize how I would punish accordingly. Am I in the right line of thought with these movement exercises?

Regardless, here are some of my movement in action:
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoisedRockyLemurPMSTwin - me utilizing long back dash feint to short dash in crossup to beat overshoot shine. Didn't mean to add in the WD but oh well.
https://youtu.be/VSdv_Trf7i0?t=12m36s - me being in the effective range of running shine and beating it with a simple dash back
https://youtu.be/4_FMUNsOsus?t=10m55s - me being in the effective range of DA and beating it with a simple WD back
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=15m1s - me utilizing WD downs to trick Falcon thinking I would cross up, then actually crossing up to WD double dash back to WP the dair.
https://youtu.be/YE7eRzslPUM?t=15m50s - sickest movement I've ever done in my life, combination of using WD to crossup and dashing back the effective range of sheik's DA

Thoughts? Especially for the first clip, I had a discussion with a friend that he thought the cross up was unnecessary and that I should've just pivot grabbed in place instead. Tbh I kinda just felt it in the moment to cross up and had less trust in my pivot grab in that position, and in general I feel like crossing up is more guaranteed to net me a punish.


I have various questions regarding the Falcon mu, such as crossing up. I find that sometimes crossing up Falcon and getting an immediate punish is pretty hard, and in some cases could actually get me killed like here: https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=15m24s
Upon simulating this with replays, I found that it's actually kind of hard to not get hit by nair if I tighten up those dashes in between crossing up Falcon's nair. Do you have other recommendations other than grab, or should I just refine this scenario and practice getting the grab since it's relatively high reward?

Also, my edgeguards vs. Falcon is piss poor. While I have taken notes from various videos I could find, it's not really paying off and there's scenarios that I'm uncertain to go about.
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=34s
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=6m58s
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=12m29s
-Do you think these dairs are necessary? I do this so I lock out the possibility of wall tech, but often I get the sourspot.
As for edgeguards that didn't involve me missing dairs...
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=11m44s
-Do you think I should've intercepted the peak of the recovery with tipper bair? I'm not sure what's the best followup I could get when Falcon lands on the platform
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=12m33s
-Did I make the right choice going for bair here? Honestly not sure what alternative would've been better than tipper bair.
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=12m36s
-Here is when I really start questioning my edgeguarding capabilities when Falcon recovers high. I keep rinsing and repeating with bairs, but since they were weak it didn't matter. Was the only issue that it wasn't tippered?
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=14m36s
-This is what really makes me question what to do when Falcon recovers high. My neutral B's didn't really seem to do much, and only to the point where it just reverses. Thoughts?


https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=8m13s
-I'm not sure what to do in this position, since there I feel like crossing up would get me hit and dashing back got me hit there. Would my only answer be jump nair or side-B/jab in place? I kinda don't really like the idea of zoning being my only answers here.
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=8m30s
-What do I do when the Falcon is stomp camping me on top platform? Should I just ignore it?
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=9m54s
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=10m30s
-Sometimes when I shield raptor boost on reaction, that happens where I accidentally dash back and shield. Would the best bandage solution there be roll before the raptor boost hits my shield?

Also regarding playing the platform/FH game vs Fox and Falco, I feel like I'm playing a frustrating game of cat and mouse where I'm just the clumsy cat. When I play the ground game, I feel comfortable because I know and practiced scenarios. To a lesser extent, I'm comfortable with my zoning tools because of my large disjoint and familiar positions. When it comes to trying to catch FH/DJ feints on top platform with Fox and Falco, I feel lost and frustrated, perhaps due to in part because I rarely practice that position and afraid of getting daired in the process. Do you perhaps know of useful videos/players where some Marth is proficient at combating spacies playing the platform game? Is it really a simple mixup game of playing position if they come down vs. callout their DJ if they feint an attack with DJ aerial to platform?

Also suppose if I saw puff's poking bair (drift in rising bair, then drift back), and I know for sure she's going to do a poking bair again, would the best course of action be WD dtilt or drift in nair? I feel like out of my DD, WD dtilt is harder to execute compared to jump drift in nair. Additionally, what do taking space vs. puff's poking bair exactly accomplish? I've thought about doing that, but I don't really see the merits of it atm because I feel like the puff would just do a poking bair again.

Thanks for answering my questions like always PP. Oh yeah, I've been doing irregular ledge grab timings, and combined with all my other ledge mixups, it has made my ledge game 10000x better than before. I also found that if they try to callout my ledge (aka runoff attack), dropping low up-B which I stole from M2K works wonders. Thanks for that advice as well!

 

[Socrates]

Maybe a contentious issue, but is there a consensus on whether or not netplay is productive for improving?

 

[Kotastic]

I think it's useful, provided there's no excessive lag. Just like irl friendlies sessions, it depends how you take away each match.

 

[Zorcey]

Kotastic yo the movement in that one clip.

Dr Peepee so I'm learning positions better and better, but I find as I'm analyzing my own play, that because my thought process when playing is like, "okay, they'll do x, so I'll do y," that I'm a very predictable player, which I expected, and sure I was even before now lol. The thing is, stronger players, and eventually even weaker ones start responding to my cues, and probably think something like, for example, "he's definitely going to aerial this side of the platform, so I'll go to the other side," which at least harms my efficiency at best. I know I want to start using my opponents' responses to my cues against them by learning fake outs and going deeper into conditioning, but I'm not sure if that's a project I should start working at right now, or wait until I've gone much deeper into important situations first. Thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh btw to clarify against Falco's laser --> DA/Ftilt, do you mean dash back before the laser connects? I find that it's particularly hard to simply take laser those followups, as I think ftilt in particular is a true combo.

I would like inputs regarding my movement. After my daily training of movement strings, I think I'm starting to get it. Every time I start my practice sessions, I start with group dash dancing, and gradually change my pattern. I visualize that if I'm further away from my opponent's TR, they're more likely to overshoot, so I do a long dash back feint to immediate dash in to cross up punish the overshoot. If I'm more inside my opponent's comfortable TR, then I do the standard whiff punish of long dash back or double dash back. If I'm really inside my opponent's TR, then I WD down to trick them into thinking I'm crossing up, and then visualize how I would punish accordingly. Am I in the right line of thought with these movement exercises?

Regardless, here are some of my movement in action:
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoisedRockyLemurPMSTwin - me utilizing long back dash feint to short dash in crossup to beat overshoot shine. Didn't mean to add in the WD but oh well.
https://youtu.be/VSdv_Trf7i0?t=12m36s - me being in the effective range of running shine and beating it with a simple dash back
https://youtu.be/4_FMUNsOsus?t=10m55s - me being in the effective range of DA and beating it with a simple WD back
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=15m1s - me utilizing WD downs to trick Falcon thinking I would cross up, then actually crossing up to WD double dash back to WP the dair.
https://youtu.be/YE7eRzslPUM?t=15m50s - sickest movement I've ever done in my life, combination of using WD to crossup and dashing back the effective range of sheik's DA

Thoughts? Especially for the first clip, I had a discussion with a friend that he thought the cross up was unnecessary and that I should've just pivot grabbed in place instead. Tbh I kinda just felt it in the moment to cross up and had less trust in my pivot grab in that position, and in general I feel like crossing up is more guaranteed to net me a punish.


I have various questions regarding the Falcon mu, such as crossing up. I find that sometimes crossing up Falcon and getting an immediate punish is pretty hard, and in some cases could actually get me killed like here: https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=15m24s
Upon simulating this with replays, I found that it's actually kind of hard to not get hit by nair if I tighten up those dashes in between crossing up Falcon's nair. Do you have other recommendations other than grab, or should I just refine this scenario and practice getting the grab since it's relatively high reward?

Also, my edgeguards vs. Falcon is piss poor. While I have taken notes from various videos I could find, it's not really paying off and there's scenarios that I'm uncertain to go about.
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=34s
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=6m58s
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=12m29s
-Do you think these dairs are necessary? I do this so I lock out the possibility of wall tech, but often I get the sourspot.
As for edgeguards that didn't involve me missing dairs...
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=11m44s
-Do you think I should've intercepted the peak of the recovery with tipper bair? I'm not sure what's the best followup I could get when Falcon lands on the platform
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=12m33s
-Did I make the right choice going for bair here? Honestly not sure what alternative would've been better than tipper bair.
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=12m36s
-Here is when I really start questioning my edgeguarding capabilities when Falcon recovers high. I keep rinsing and repeating with bairs, but since they were weak it didn't matter. Was the only issue that it wasn't tippered?
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=14m36s
-This is what really makes me question what to do when Falcon recovers high. My neutral B's didn't really seem to do much, and only to the point where it just reverses. Thoughts?


https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=8m13s
-I'm not sure what to do in this position, since there I feel like crossing up would get me hit and dashing back got me hit there. Would my only answer be jump nair or side-B/jab in place? I kinda don't really like the idea of zoning being my only answers here.
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=8m30s
-What do I do when the Falcon is stomp camping me on top platform? Should I just ignore it?
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=9m54s
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=10m30s
-Sometimes when I shield raptor boost on reaction, that happens where I accidentally dash back and shield. Would the best bandage solution there be roll before the raptor boost hits my shield?

Also regarding playing the platform/FH game vs Fox and Falco, I feel like I'm playing a frustrating game of cat and mouse where I'm just the clumsy cat. When I play the ground game, I feel comfortable because I know and practiced scenarios. To a lesser extent, I'm comfortable with my zoning tools because of my large disjoint and familiar positions. When it comes to trying to catch FH/DJ feints on top platform with Fox and Falco, I feel lost and frustrated, perhaps due to in part because I rarely practice that position and afraid of getting daired in the process. Do you perhaps know of useful videos/players where some Marth is proficient at combating spacies playing the platform game? Is it really a simple mixup game of playing position if they come down vs. callout their DJ if they feint an attack with DJ aerial to platform?

Also suppose if I saw puff's poking bair (drift in rising bair, then drift back), and I know for sure she's going to do a poking bair again, would the best course of action be WD dtilt or drift in nair? I feel like out of my DD, WD dtilt is harder to execute compared to jump drift in nair. Additionally, what do taking space vs. puff's poking bair exactly accomplish? I've thought about doing that, but I don't really see the merits of it atm because I feel like the puff would just do a poking bair again.

Thanks for answering my questions like always PP. Oh yeah, I've been doing irregular ledge grab timings, and combined with all my other ledge mixups, it has made my ledge game 10000x better than before. I also found that if they try to callout my ledge (aka runoff attack), dropping low up-B which I stole from M2K works wonders. Thanks for that advice as well!

Oh yeah I forgot it kind of depends with Ftilt on how high the laser is and if Falco needs to walk a little before Ftilt'ing or not. Yeah that would change whether dash away taking laser would work or not, though of course you could still dash before at the last second.

That's not a bad practice. I am a little wary of you not practicing individual movements still along with this, but if you feel your knowledge deepening then maybe it's not something to be so concerned about for now.

Some of this looks excessive like in that first clip with what your friend said, but your response makes it so you know what kind of serious tradeoff you're making. The latter half of the first set of clips seemed like great movement though.

I'm not sure how reliable it is to grab in that situation, it's very weird. I'd at least take pressure there though, no reason not to.

First edgeguard clip, grab the edge. Second clip, use FH(into DJ) if you want to Dair, or just SH Fair into Ken Combo or Fsmash. Third, I'm not sure if holding edge would've killed or not, but that Dair should be pretty free the way you did it. I'd just practice the timing a little more. You can drift in a little if you want for this case, though sometimes that won't work as he could drift too. Fourth, don't FH early that ruined it. In the future just dash FH Fair that and either Ken Combo or Fair again on his DI out so he goes far. Fifth, dash away dash in immediate FH Fair probably. If you tippered Bair you probably could've been okay too. Sixth, either go out for the Bair with earlier FH drift out(could also probly get a Dair out of this), or dash away dash in FH Fair as mentioned before. Seventh, I'd have DJ Fair'd and landed on the side platform, but the neutral B was ok. Should've stayed on the side platform if he was going to up-B so you could Fsmash from the edge or force him to drop low. By the third you get messed up for not sitting on the side platform.


You could've dashed back then dashed in grab on that Nair in that instance. Moving in Fair/Nair would've worked too.

FH Uair isn't great in general so I wouldn't do it. FH Bair works well if you think he will stay there so you can damage him from a distance and/or push him off. But yeah, waiting is fine too.


Yeah or WD away after dashing. I've had to bail out with roll or just Bair OOS sometimes lol.

You'll be more okay with the positions once you practice them vs spacies. That FH Uair you did in that Falcon clip might be part of why you get so frustrated. FH Fair(retreating slightly at least and only at knockdown percents) and FH tippered Bair are your fastest threats, but you mix that with SH empty land and SH DJ Fair/Bair to keep them from being able to have full manipulation control. Mixing dashes in to help you wait and reposition to cover them coming down or change up where you want to place your aerials makes the position much more interactive. You may want to practice mixing these and testing them against spacies. I have generalized some since all top platforms are not created equal, so on YS/FoD you have to change how you threaten the top some but at least you can SH Uair and hit the top platform. Against Falco on YS in particular I often try to wait him out instead of hit him since he can come down so fast, but in every other spacie and stage combination I like to threaten a little more. M2K would be the only one who kinda does this right now, but it's not super detailed.

You could tipper Fsmash if it was KO percent, but if it's low percent then yes go for the run in Nair. Taking space is awesome vs Puff since she's a super zoner, so making her lose stage for free puts tremendous pressure on her. Sure she can drift away and jump, but that isn't going to help her long term and burns recovery options for later.

Ah I'm glad you were able to apply the ledge stuff. Makes the game WAY more fun for Marth haha. Keep at it man.

Maybe a contentious issue, but is there a consensus on whether or not netplay is productive for improving?

I really don't like it, but it's possible it's just my setup is bad or something. Still, many people have improved with it so this does seem like something I can't really answer well myself.

Kotastic yo the movement in that one clip.

Dr Peepee so I'm learning positions better and better, but I find as I'm analyzing my own play, that because my thought process when playing is like, "okay, they'll do x, so I'll do y," that I'm a very predictable player, which I expected, and sure I was even before now lol. The thing is, stronger players, and eventually even weaker ones start responding to my cues, and probably think something like, for example, "he's definitely going to aerial this side of the platform, so I'll go to the other side," which at least harms my efficiency at best. I know I want to start using my opponents' responses to my cues against them by learning fake outs and going deeper into conditioning, but I'm not sure if that's a project I should start working at right now, or wait until I've gone much deeper into important situations first. Thoughts or suggestions?

This is very okay, and it means you have a straightforward gameplan. Now you just need to play around with your next steps. So when you create a situation, you have what you start looking for, and then what you create from looking for something. So if you start punishing dash backs, anyone and their mom will eventually start shielding or yolo'ing you in the same position for example(they could FH more if they're Fox but you get the idea). So you begin looking for those things instead. This is where observation comes in, and you can begin catching them as they adjust, or change your movements to account for possible changes before they happen, like WD'ing back a little earlier if you expect a deeper approach but also allowing yourself to see what they did for sure for example. No need to overwhelm yourself though, just look at a next step and begin incorporating that into your practice while you study other things. I believe you'll find it complementary.

 

[Socrates]

Here’s kind of a different question.

When you’re analyzing a player’s matches with the intent of playing against them, what are you looking for? Habits? Playstyle? How much applicable knowledge do you think can be gained from studying a player’s past matches?

Let me know if this is too vague and I can get more specific.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If I'm going to play someone, I'm looking to see how they respond to the same or similar situations I'd put them in. I might get more specifics about how exactly they time their rolls or jumps OOS, or when exactly they react to a push in when cornered. I don't like seeing so many things differently from what I'd do, but if I can get an overall feel for how they respond or find different options/option combinations that work on them I may adjust my game to include those things.

 

[YNZ]

Hey PPMD! Hopefully you're doing well! I got another few Marth V Spacies questions if you dont mind answering them!

Background:

I was actually playing some netplay today and I met a falco who was way better than me and he was whoopin me.

I was powershielding lasers pretty decently and utilizing take laser jabs, etc etc but I really struggled with his platform game (faking dropping down with dair with a drop through, DJ waveland back on platform, shield dropping, etc) and when he would dash dance right outside of my SH Fair/Nair range while i was in shield.

Questions:

For the first part (vs Fox and Falco's tricky platform game) I saw that Kotastic actually asked something similar to this. I read your response and I was wondering if you could elaborate on threatening spacies under platforms (the thing you said you see M2K do a lot) Is that just dash dancing around their Shield drop Bair/Dair range and threatening with a SH/FH fair or Uair? Or is it something much more complex? (Sorry if this is a dumb question im still pretty new to melee and my punish game vs spacies on platforms is literally just stand in place and Utilt + Uair and sometimes Waveland grab or shield breaker so shield drops and other spacie options really mess me up)

Also, versus Falcos laser dashdance (which I actually heard you popularized!) I was wondering how marth could counter that. Above I read that you something like "If falco laser dash dances, marth gets his DD back too which lets him really threaten falco" For me however, I would get hit by a laser (bc I missed a powershield or something) and then immediately hold shield in the corner (because I was scared of an incoming aerial or something). Then while I was in shield the falco would just dashdance around my SH Fair/Nair range so I wouldnt be able to hit him with that or risk getting grabbed / Daired and I also felt like rolling or WD OOS towards him would get me Daired + comboed to hell! Is there any way to deal with this kind of pressure? Or should I just try not to hold shield when falco lasers up close? (I think I could have TL jabbed, TL dash forward but I was cornered and expecting the aerial so I just held shield)

Last question (sorry hopefully this one is easier to answer!):

In the Marth V Fox matchup, which i find much harder than marth v falco for some reason, I think I'm pretty good at getting fox to jump with dtilt but once he starts jumping a lot, I end up trying to counter his jumps with SH Fair (towards fox) or SH Nair towards him. Im pretty sure these SH aerials are very bad ideas bc every time I do them, I get whiff punished or shield grabbed (maybe I'm just doing them incorrectly/not spacing well). I was thinking about dashdancing out of the range of their aerials but when I do that, i start getting running shined by fox which leads into me getting comboed. I use SH Nair and (WD) Jab a lot vs jumpy falcos (and it seems to work a lot) but VS Fox they dont seem to work nearly as much (maybe its because of his speed or i'm just playing bad falcos). Basically, I was wondering what a marth should be doing after he gets fox/falco to start jumping (I think what I should be doing differs greatly depending on which spacie i'm facing).

Thank you so much in advance and for the help you gave me last time!

 

[Dr Peepee]

It seems like you're struggling more with side platform, while Kotastic was struggling more with top platform. Your options against spacies on platforms are run up retreating Fair, Fair in place(usually later Fair), and threatening these with movement and waiting. The Fair is safe from shield drop punishes and will beat many approaches, but if they run in when you do but before you get to a point you can safely Fair they could hit you, or they could run up shield before you're ready and you're Fair'ing too close to them sometimes. So this is why dash in fakes and waits are important. So basically do some retreating Fairs and sometimes do some waits that make it look like you will Fair.

Yeah the main problem with relying on PS is if you mess up you are in an absolutely horrible position. Either get dash back/crouch PS a lot or learn Z-PS or don't PS imo. The risk is just too high otherwise I think. Also, don't hold shield after getting hit by laser. That's a fear thing. Practice taking laser and jabbing or dashing, anything besides shield unless you absolutely have to(usually you have to when Falco is too close or he just outplays you). Marth in shield is so bad. If you do wind up in the position you mentioned, sometimes SH without doing an aerial so you can react to him coming in with a Fair. Sometimes you can WD down and be out of lag and act before he's ready. Sometimes you can FH waveland on the side platform and play from there such as shield dropping at him or running over him and landing with an aerial. I often like WD back to edge because I'd rather do that than deal with his mixup usually.

Approaching Nair is very bad, don't do it. Approaching Fair is good, but still risky. Run in retreating rising Fair is safer but gives less reward. You can sometimes just run in without doing an attack and then either pressure/grab their shield or just attack their FH/DJ if they're not attacking when you come in. Also if they approach with running shine, you can pivot grab/run in JC grab/Fair or Nair or Dtilt in place and beat that.

 

[YNZ]

Oohh that makes a lot more sense! Thanks so much again PP! :D

 

[Kotastic]

Oh yeah I forgot it kind of depends with Ftilt on how high the laser is and if Falco needs to walk a little before Ftilt'ing or not. Yeah that would change whether dash away taking laser would work or not, though of course you could still dash before at the last second.

That's not a bad practice. I am a little wary of you not practicing individual movements still along with this, but if you feel your knowledge deepening then maybe it's not something to be so concerned about for now.

Some of this looks excessive like in that first clip with what your friend said, but your response makes it so you know what kind of serious tradeoff you're making. The latter half of the first set of clips seemed like great movement though.

I'm not sure how reliable it is to grab in that situation, it's very weird. I'd at least take pressure there though, no reason not to.

First edgeguard clip, grab the edge. Second clip, use FH(into DJ) if you want to Dair, or just SH Fair into Ken Combo or Fsmash. Third, I'm not sure if holding edge would've killed or not, but that Dair should be pretty free the way you did it. I'd just practice the timing a little more. You can drift in a little if you want for this case, though sometimes that won't work as he could drift too. Fourth, don't FH early that ruined it. In the future just dash FH Fair that and either Ken Combo or Fair again on his DI out so he goes far. Fifth, dash away dash in immediate FH Fair probably. If you tippered Bair you probably could've been okay too. Sixth, either go out for the Bair with earlier FH drift out(could also probly get a Dair out of this), or dash away dash in FH Fair as mentioned before. Seventh, I'd have DJ Fair'd and landed on the side platform, but the neutral B was ok. Should've stayed on the side platform if he was going to up-B so you could Fsmash from the edge or force him to drop low. By the third you get messed up for not sitting on the side platform.


You could've dashed back then dashed in grab on that Nair in that instance. Moving in Fair/Nair would've worked too.

FH Uair isn't great in general so I wouldn't do it. FH Bair works well if you think he will stay there so you can damage him from a distance and/or push him off. But yeah, waiting is fine too.


Yeah or WD away after dashing. I've had to bail out with roll or just Bair OOS sometimes lol.

You'll be more okay with the positions once you practice them vs spacies. That FH Uair you did in that Falcon clip might be part of why you get so frustrated. FH Fair(retreating slightly at least and only at knockdown percents) and FH tippered Bair are your fastest threats, but you mix that with SH empty land and SH DJ Fair/Bair to keep them from being able to have full manipulation control. Mixing dashes in to help you wait and reposition to cover them coming down or change up where you want to place your aerials makes the position much more interactive. You may want to practice mixing these and testing them against spacies. I have generalized some since all top platforms are not created equal, so on YS/FoD you have to change how you threaten the top some but at least you can SH Uair and hit the top platform. Against Falco on YS in particular I often try to wait him out instead of hit him since he can come down so fast, but in every other spacie and stage combination I like to threaten a little more. M2K would be the only one who kinda does this right now, but it's not super detailed.

You could tipper Fsmash if it was KO percent, but if it's low percent then yes go for the run in Nair. Taking space is awesome vs Puff since she's a super zoner, so making her lose stage for free puts tremendous pressure on her. Sure she can drift away and jump, but that isn't going to help her long term and burns recovery options for later.

Ah I'm glad you were able to apply the ledge stuff. Makes the game WAY more fun for Marth haha. Keep at it man.


I really don't like it, but it's possible it's just my setup is bad or something. Still, many people have improved with it so this does seem like something I can't really answer well myself.


This is very okay, and it means you have a straightforward gameplan. Now you just need to play around with your next steps. So when you create a situation, you have what you start looking for, and then what you create from looking for something. So if you start punishing dash backs, anyone and their mom will eventually start shielding or yolo'ing you in the same position for example(they could FH more if they're Fox but you get the idea). So you begin looking for those things instead. This is where observation comes in, and you can begin catching them as they adjust, or change your movements to account for possible changes before they happen, like WD'ing back a little earlier if you expect a deeper approach but also allowing yourself to see what they did for sure for example. No need to overwhelm yourself though, just look at a next step and begin incorporating that into your practice while you study other things. I believe you'll find it complementary.

When I practice my movements, I kind of think of my group dash dances making a response and then the 1-2 dashes I make after that said response I really make my move, which sort of practices individual and group dash dances at the same time if that makes sense. Not sure if that sits well with you, and perhaps I should practice individual movements more.

If you think that my first clip was excessive, what did you not like about it? Do you think crossups are unreliable and that I should pivot grab in place instead? I actually got that crossup idea from you here: https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=8m59s

Speaking more about movement, I'm starting to doubt the use of group dash dancing against characters that aren't as mobile or typically play in the defensive like sheik in puff. Sheik in particular, I feel like I'm making such a huge risking dashing any more than 1-2 dashes because she has so many tools to beat dash dancing like taking space fair, run up dsmash, overshoot RC ftilt, jump needles, and whatever abomination of tools sheik has, whereas she doesn't have as much oppressive answers against standing/slight walk dtilt in which I can easily mix with 1-2 dashes the most effectively. Admittedly, I don't have as much experience vs. puff but I feel like she functions similar to sheik but moreso in the air. However, I don't really see this be as much of an issue like Fox and Falcon since they don't beat dash dancing as hard with their options, but I may not have played against really good players that really know how to counter marth's dash dancing. Thoughts?

In response to the Falcon clips
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=15m24s - if you don't think that grab is very reliable in that situation, do you think perhaps I should nair instead of grab? As for pressure for worst case scenario, see how my opponent responds when I dash towards him after a scary crossup situation for Falcon in the corner?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvKD01095I&feature=youtu.be&t=6m58s - for second clip of my edgeguarding questions, I did precisely FH and prepped for dair, but it seemed like Falcon's drift in prevented that. Should I perhaps not be facing backwards so I can either dair or fair to ken combo? I like facing backwards because of the bigger hitbox behind, but idk maybe I should familiarize better with the front hitbox too.
From what I understand with these inputs, I should probably work on my dair spacing and jump at the right times when Falcon is most vulnerable, and for high recoveries I should use platforms to position myself better. Fair probably leads to ken combo. Any other principles you think I'm missing?

Regarding top platform, I've been experimenting with FH fair and bair and it works out great. Dealing with top platform has become significantly easier for me, so thanks for the advice! However, I have to ask why up-air isn't good. I looked at the hitbox with 20xx, and theoretically up air seems like it covers it the best, but in reality it just somehow doesn't. Is it perhaps because of Marth's hand being exposed more with up-air, and that up-air would only just let the opponent DI towards center and allows them to have more mixups?
Also, I found that FH fair/bair is less effective in YS and FoD as you said because especially in YS the platform is significantly lower. I found that SH up air is pretty effective for FF'ers trying to top platform camp, and mixing that with dashes.
It might be because my opponents might not be super pro, but I find that they have their own little timer when they want to come down from the top platform, so often I don't even need to SH for creating a mixup in response to whatever I do. I found that in fact, FH fair (as a read, not faded back) can even get me big followups to a potential kill whereas SH fair only resets the situation. Would you still advocate to keep the SH mixup in mind for opponents that don't have their timer I guess?

Other questions, why do you always suggest to empty land instead of waveland? Ex, that top platform ex I don't see why you wouldn't advocate for wavelanding back as opposed to empty landing.

Also when I'm in the corner, in general how do you feel about taking platforms as a mixup? I feel like whenever I do that, I feel like I'm taking advantage of my opponent not reacting properly and the fact that it's not super common for Marth to be on the platform.

 

[Zorcey]

Kotastic why do you think Fox and Falcon don't punish DD as hard? I think because of how strong their overshoot options are they punish Marth over-DDing really well. Fox has RC Dtilt, RC Shine, overshoot grab, Jab > Usmash/RC Usmash, delayed aerials - also because of his speed if he undershoots he can often get away on a mixup. Falcon DD grab is also strong, and SH Knee just blows up over-DD with its range, and can end your stock starting at mid percents. I'm just curious why you think these characters in particular don't punish DDs that use more than 1-2 dashes that well.

Dr Peepee could I get some advice on situation visualization? Like we've talked about, I'm trying to learn the key positions in each matchup very deeply, and I'm doing a lot of mental work to really internalize the situations. But going deep into the situations and working on visualization at higher levels requires a lot more focus and mental energy from me, and it's quite exhausting. I also find it easy to lose my place and have a hard time finding it again, and sometimes I feel like I just hit a mental roadblock where I can't get past a particular interaction - when I try to get back on track it just loops in my head. How do you deal with these issues when you do visualization work? I find doing meditations helps me prepare better, but I need to work at increasing my time if I want to be able to stay focused for longer periods. Oh, and do you have any structural advice for visualization too? Like, good fundamental questions to ask myself when looking at a given situation, or something of the sort?

 

[Kotastic]

Again, it just might be me not playing super good players, but I feel like if I dd at a certain distance, I can almost react accordingly to what Fox and Falcon does. Plus, most importantly both of those characters have to make commitment to beat my dd. If they beat my dd, I feel like I got outplayed. Against like Sheik and probably puff, they don't have to make as much of a commitment for the same results, and it's kinda tilting for me really.

 

[Zorcey]

Oh, I see what you’re saying: I misunderstood your point that it was Sheik and Puff can punish DD with relatively low commitment. But maybe there’s something to be said about dash back and pivot Fair here? (I also really like pivot shield versus Sheik RCs like Dsmash. Versus Puff I feel like interrupting my DD with aerials is all I need, but my Puff experience is probably even less than yours lmao.) Since neither Sheik nor Puff have particularly strong overshoots (compared to say, Fox and Falcon). But that just speaks to your hypothesis that using an excessive amount of dashes is particularly bad in those matchups, because if they know you’ll dash back in they’ll hit you.

 

[Kotastic]

It seems like to you, you seem to have more confidence beating undershoots whereas I have more confidence beating overshoots. That being said, your response to dash back/pivot fair and shield would still lose to things like gradual take space methods like fair, run-up crouch, 50/50's they can overshoot with high reward (like DA would beat your fair and boost grab would beat your shield/dash back), and whatever else they have. Maybe I play too many sheiks and faceroll too much, but they made me really jaded about dash dancing. Again, that's not to say that dash dancing is bad perse, but I find that especially in the sheik mu dashing any more than 1-2 lengths gets me so much into trouble. Also in response to your last sentence, I'm saying that even if I dash back only, generally sheik undershooting while gradually taking space still nets them a lot. This problem is alleviated a lot though when I zone with d-tilt.

 

[Zorcey]

I would agree with this, I think. And yeah, but at the point they begin to move in a lot or just a little, you can intercept with Dtilt before they come at you, like you say - I think the zoning with Dtilt is important to discourage overshooting before you start dashing back, but I was only addressing the options you cited in your initial post. I think DD is really good, but it needs to be properly supplemented with zoning so it doesn't lose the threats that it normally carries.

 

[Dr Peepee]

This Smashboards change....

When I practice my movements, I kind of think of my group dash dances making a response and then the 1-2 dashes I make after that said response I really make my move, which sort of practices individual and group dash dances at the same time if that makes sense. Not sure if that sits well with you, and perhaps I should practice individual movements more.

If you think that my first clip was excessive, what did you not like about it? Do you think crossups are unreliable and that I should pivot grab in place instead? I actually got that crossup idea from you here: https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=8m59s

Speaking more about movement, I'm starting to doubt the use of group dash dancing against characters that aren't as mobile or typically play in the defensive like sheik in puff. Sheik in particular, I feel like I'm making such a huge risking dashing any more than 1-2 dashes because she has so many tools to beat dash dancing like taking space fair, run up dsmash, overshoot RC ftilt, jump needles, and whatever abomination of tools sheik has, whereas she doesn't have as much oppressive answers against standing/slight walk dtilt in which I can easily mix with 1-2 dashes the most effectively. Admittedly, I don't have as much experience vs. puff but I feel like she functions similar to sheik but moreso in the air. However, I don't really see this be as much of an issue like Fox and Falcon since they don't beat dash dancing as hard with their options, but I may not have played against really good players that really know how to counter marth's dash dancing. Thoughts?

In response to the Falcon clips
https://youtu.be/kAvKD01095I?t=15m24s - if you don't think that grab is very reliable in that situation, do you think perhaps I should nair instead of grab? As for pressure for worst case scenario, see how my opponent responds when I dash towards him after a scary crossup situation for Falcon in the corner?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvKD01095I&feature=youtu.be&t=6m58s - for second clip of my edgeguarding questions, I did precisely FH and prepped for dair, but it seemed like Falcon's drift in prevented that. Should I perhaps not be facing backwards so I can either dair or fair to ken combo? I like facing backwards because of the bigger hitbox behind, but idk maybe I should familiarize better with the front hitbox too.
From what I understand with these inputs, I should probably work on my dair spacing and jump at the right times when Falcon is most vulnerable, and for high recoveries I should use platforms to position myself better. Fair probably leads to ken combo. Any other principles you think I'm missing?

Regarding top platform, I've been experimenting with FH fair and bair and it works out great. Dealing with top platform has become significantly easier for me, so thanks for the advice! However, I have to ask why up-air isn't good. I looked at the hitbox with 20xx, and theoretically up air seems like it covers it the best, but in reality it just somehow doesn't. Is it perhaps because of Marth's hand being exposed more with up-air, and that up-air would only just let the opponent DI towards center and allows them to have more mixups?
Also, I found that FH fair/bair is less effective in YS and FoD as you said because especially in YS the platform is significantly lower. I found that SH up air is pretty effective for FF'ers trying to top platform camp, and mixing that with dashes.
It might be because my opponents might not be super pro, but I find that they have their own little timer when they want to come down from the top platform, so often I don't even need to SH for creating a mixup in response to whatever I do. I found that in fact, FH fair (as a read, not faded back) can even get me big followups to a potential kill whereas SH fair only resets the situation. Would you still advocate to keep the SH mixup in mind for opponents that don't have their timer I guess?

Other questions, why do you always suggest to empty land instead of waveland? Ex, that top platform ex I don't see why you wouldn't advocate for wavelanding back as opposed to empty landing.

Also when I'm in the corner, in general how do you feel about taking platforms as a mixup? I feel like whenever I do that, I feel like I'm taking advantage of my opponent not reacting properly and the fact that it's not super common for Marth to be on the platform.

It's not necessarily the crossup that is an issue to me, but you crossed up twice. Anything like that can often be simplified and have a strong effect. That's not to say what you did was necessarily bad or not worth doing sometimes, but I do have my concerns about it. You could have grabbed after he overshot, as he ran back in at two points(you could have also aerialed). Maybe just keeping these in mind and playing with them will be sufficient.

Hmm...you would be right about excessive movement there IF you're waiting for an approach to counter. Group dash dancing as I often use it is more composed of separate dash sequences so I'm looking to either go in or not. This keeps my focus fresh. However, you seem very okay with zoning and being more minimalist in general so it's probably better for you to zone more. Against Puff I admittedly don't know how to fully fight her with zoning though and only know how to fight her with movement, so there may be some specifics we have to work through together to solve that lol. But anyway, group dash dancing when just done in itself is more about being quick and countering approaches I find, which works much better against Fox and Falcon.

Looking at the clip again, I could see grab being more reliable than I initially thought. I'd need to play with it myself to be sure but it looks okay. Nair can be alright but if you drift in too far or are just too late then his dash away will lead to dash in grab punish, and you were late in this clip. Maybe pushing in with rising Fair in place after dash turns into run or something can be alright. I also think just dashing in is fine so you can grab/pressure if you want but if he moves away hes now in pretty bad position. This would especially be the right play given your dash in timing in this clip.

In the edgeguarding clip, you went too far forward/jumped too early with FH upon watching it again. To correct for this you'd need to drift away more once you confirmed his drift in.

Glad the top platform got easier to handle! FH Uair just gives Marth awful hangtime and extends his hurtbox awfully as you said, plus puts him in shield drop range or even ASDI down range if they move and they can punish. Marth needs to FH and THEN FF Uair to have any kind of utility, so it's way more predictable then changing the timing on Fair/Bair. Also, if Marth rises with Uair he also has hitlag that will hold him in place even longer. When Marth can SH Uair and hit top platforms he's way scarier, but again you know his timing exactly and he hits a smaller area than FH Fair/Bair then and he's vulnerable to drops so the speed isn't worth all of the drawbacks then to me. Uair is only good as a mixup at say mid percents when you could shield stab or call out their movement and convert off of it harder.

The timer IS a very big deal and will matter for every opponent you play, though some have more sophisticated patterns of course. Use the SH mixup as you see fit. No need to waste your mixup on opponents that don't warrant the strategy, but I definitely believe it's worth practicing.

I'm not sure I understand your wavelanding question fully, but during top platform pressure you don't want to lose frames especially after landing because that's a time people are more likely to move and you want your frames available for then. In general I think Marth benefits a lot from empty lands and no one uses them. Marths always land with aerials and getting rid of this makes your jumps scarier since it opens up ground actions such as dash or Dtilt or grab faster and also keeps your opponent from punishing your Fair landing lag. That being said, I do actually like wavelanding when mixed with this principle and think it has some cool uses, but it's just not something to normally consider imo.

Kotastic could I get some advice on situation visualization? Like we've talked about, I'm trying to learn the key positions in each matchup very deeply, and I'm doing a lot of mental work to really internalize the situations. But going deep into the situations and working on visualization at higher levels requires a lot more focus and mental energy from me, and it's quite exhausting. I also find it easy to lose my place and have a hard time finding it again, and sometimes I feel like I just hit a mental roadblock where I can't get past a particular interaction - when I try to get back on track it just loops in my head. How do you deal with these issues when you do visualization work? I find doing meditations helps me prepare better, but I need to work at increasing my time if I want to be able to stay focused for longer periods. Oh, and do you have any structural advice for visualization too? Like, good fundamental questions to ask myself when looking at a given situation, or something of the sort?

Hmm...maybe you would benefit from writing your thoughts down? That way you don't have to remember everything and it won't loop. Might be easier to run some in 20XX so you can visually see it too.

Besides that, I focused on keeping it simple and not including every variable when I did visualization. I mainly used conditioning and percent and stage position as my primary variables and would just make some more or less prominent/part of the situation at all as I wanted to. If I got stuck I'd try to find the situation in a match and see what happened, or I'd just try to make it happen in friendlies so I could have a more concrete understanding. These days there are training partners that can run the situation with you too. Maybe some of this helps.

In a given situation, I say to myself what are the possible options, what are the common options, what do I think they will do. Then I see how I did, or in my head I run it multiple times and I also include times where I am wrong to help balance risk/reward in my head and explain to myself why I was wrong to think more about the situation. Is that useful?

 

[AirFair]

I've been looking at marth vs peach some more, and it's lead to thoughts about using marth's tools in general.

If I want to use wd dtilt vs peach effectively, and threaten it effectively, I was wondering what were the most effective ways to threaten that option in the most common neutral position, at TR. From what I see in matches, peaches will jump for fc aerials or dash attack when marths use short dashes in those positions. I believe that because of this, marth is threatening dtilt with those dashes
Some examples:
https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=13m45s
-here you do short dashes and armada backs away and starts doing fc bairs, both to avoid the dtilt but also because he wants to eventually pull a turnip
https://youtu.be/hQ1CQEtEYfA?t=16s
-here m2k does short dashes to wait, and armada comes forward with a fc nair, which would beat him coming in for dtilt. This could also have been a response to m2k waiting to encourage an attack, but I guess I'm just looking for anything that seems to follow what I'm thinking lol

I guess the question I want to start with here is what are you threatening with these short dashes? Can you threaten wd dtilt from a short dash, or is it something else that peaches are responding to?

ps. the new smashboards search doesn't help anymore =(
also your avatar lost it's head, which is why I changed mine lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

The long dash was what made him jump and that was the Dtilt threat. The short dashes threaten approaching too with Dtilt/Fair but to a lesser extent. You can threaten from that shorter dash but it's less common.

The new search doesn't work anymore AND I LOST MY HEAD GUH

Edit: regrew my head