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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Zorcey

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee so I’ve been working with the sequences we discussed (Dash > Fair, Dash in > WD back, Dash back > WD in > Dtilt) for about two weeks now, and they’ve been very, very helpful. I completely agree with Kopaka’s point about feeling mental energy flowing into more observation than execution, and it’s liberating. I want to go deeper into this type of training, but how do I start to formulate sequences myself? There are few approaches I could think of, but it seems easy to create bad sequences. I can at least remember “keep it simple,” but what other advice and suggestions would you have? And do you have any other key sequences of your own you would recommend?
 

Dr Peepee

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Fox's run up JC up-smash.

1. Are there certain situations where you feel like they're more likely to do it?
2. It's really fast, so I feel like react-able distance is at least a full wavedash and a half. Does that sound about right or could I work on making that distance smaller?
3. Best punish in your opinion? Fair only works on read/react and is risky. Dtilt (WD back first?) can work on reaction. Shield is easy but also costs movement and is easily beaten with grab
1. Well they have to be close enough to do it quickly out of dash...maybe run, and of course your percent matters. Usually they will dash some before doing it, so out of stand is less likely. Not sure I remember more specifics right now.

2. Not sure whose WD you mean, but it's probably around a Marth WD distance in threat range...maybe a little less?

3. Grabbing Fox before he does it or Dtilt'ing him before he gets there are good. You can SH backward and use Fair/Nair but you can also retreating Bair if your back is to Fox. WD/dash away help you dodge it, and punishing OOS you can grab if he's close or you shield DI in and Fair might work the rest of the time I think.

Yes this helps a lot! That makes a lot of sense, thank you. I suppose I never thought about tourneys as application of ideas but rather a progress checker. Which it can be but I shouldnt think that it is their only use. Yes going to tourneys makes me lose out on solo practice/analysis time but not entirely. I usually set aside one free day a week for tourneys but I could use that time in addition to the time at night if I finish a project. Now I have a follow up question.

So I noticed that one of my friends posted here saying he read this thread in its entirety and he said you mentioned something about practicing efficiently vs. just trying to grind for hours. He also described the various things you do when trying to decipher a situation or idea. When do you decide to move on from shadow boxing to analysis or to applying it vs. someone in friendlies? etc. What makes you determine which angle to approach the idea/situation from?
When many people practice, it's aimless and about trying to be fast. Eventually you zone out. This leads to bad muscle memory and bad association with the game. Efficient practice is about making every moment valuable, practicing basic tech and other things that are directly usable in matches, and building useful muscle memory. This often helps you adapt and makes you faster and helps you understand the game better, which means you can learn much faster than just getting beaten over and over for not understanding for hours before finally making a small adjustment that helps a little.

Shadowboxing and analysis are kind of intertwined to me. You analyze and take ideas/strategies from matches and then practice beating them. You can also go the other way though, and think up new ways to beat strategies you think are good or could be viable and then test out how practical they may be when watching situations for application come up in matches you watch. Generally though I do think analysis informs shadowboxing as it gives new ideas to practice against or to strengthen, and then you take that new muscle memory to friendlies + tournament. I would guess one knows to move to application in matches when they feel they've practiced enough to have things to test in matches and they could readily react due to their training. I personally know when I feel excited to apply my ideas, but maybe that won't be the case for everyone.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/255570200?t=07h32m25s
What do you think about these pivot jumps by zain? How do you beat these jumps?

Similarly in the marth ditto, if marth does tipper fair on shield=>dash back pivot jump outside fair oos range, how should the defending marth respond?
You can beat those jumps by Ftilt'ing/Fsmash'ing/rising Fair as he jumps, attacking his landing with Dtilt/Fair/Nair/Fsmash, or by chasing him down after he does this aerial when he dashes back.

Assuming you mean late tipper Fair, you could sometimes Fair him first if he's close enough to be hit by it. Usually though you will either need to act after the Fair if he waits or hold shield if he immediately acts. So he dashes back, which means you either need to quickly confirm he dashes back or just act after Fair. I would recommend WD back when possible, sometimes jump OOS to drift as you confirm where he ends up, AC Nair OOS since it quickly lets you dodge and counterhit some approaches or Dtilts, or WD down OOS so you can hold down and Dtilt vs whatever he does or just Dtilt if he's taking too long to reposition. There could be other things like FH waveland on platform as well. Oh also WD OOS in is pretty good if you think he will do a setup like this since you can take the weak Fair and hit him back or at least pressure him. Good counters vs dash back pivot SH include WD OOS mostly in place or back after he Fairs/dashes away, your own SH after he SHs to attack him as he lands or protect your own space, and maybe also FH waveland on platform to shield drop attack him or to go over him as he floats down and can't easily tipper Fair/Uair you on reaction. That's my first main guess, but this can depend on things like how much you expect him to do it and how he confirms and how he does his Fairs and how frame tight you both are, etc.


Dr Peepee Dr Peepee so I’ve been working with the sequences we discussed (Dash > Fair, Dash in > WD back, Dash back > WD in > Dtilt) for about two weeks now, and they’ve been very, very helpful. I completely agree with Kopaka’s point about feeling mental energy flowing into more observation than execution, and it’s liberating. I want to go deeper into this type of training, but how do I start to formulate sequences myself? There are few approaches I could think of, but it seems easy to create bad sequences. I can at least remember “keep it simple,” but what other advice and suggestions would you have? And do you have any other key sequences of your own you would recommend?
Well, you can branch off from what you already know is good and build it for specific matchups, players, or common threats such as a Marth approach against you. Other than that, the way I always decided these things was to think of what was best for Marth and myself and put that together and then deepen it as much as possible, while making it specific like I just said. Have fun playing around with different ideas and see what feels good, or approach it from a desire to counter difficult things in matches, or copy things you like seeing other players do. There are many ways to decide, so just enjoy the process. I'm glad it's helping!
 
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quixotic

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You can beat those jumps by Ftilt'ing/Fsmash'ing/rising Fair as he jumps, attacking his landing with Dtilt/Fair/Nair/Fsmash, or by chasing him down after he does this aerial when he dashes back.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/255570200?t=07h32m25s

In the clip I sent, after getting hit by fair, leffen tries to catch the second pivot jump by attacking the landing with dtilt, but from his jump, zain reads leffen moving in, fastfalls, and counterattacks the rc dtilt approach. Would you say that this is a case of leffen attacking from too far away/needing to take more space before challenging the jump? Because it seems like zain is able to confirm that leffen is approaching out of his dash back.
 
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Dr Peepee

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I was wondering why there were so many more people reading this thread out of nowhere and then I checked reddit lol
sigh....i screwed up. guess no twitter for a while for me

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/255570200?t=07h32m25s

In the clip I sent, after getting hit by fair, leffen tries to catch the second pivot jump by attacking the landing with dtilt, but from his jump, zain reads leffen moving in, fastfalls, and counterattacks the rc dtilt approach. Would you say that this is a case of leffen attacking from too far away/needing to take more space before challenging the jump? Because it seems like zain is able to confirm that leffen is approaching out of his dash back.
Yeah Leffen attacked from too far away, and also Zain and Leffen acted around the same time. If Leffen had come in a little later that would've helped him more I think.
 

Dr Peepee

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I'm not sure. But for what it's worth I'll clarify here:

I only want to see good play and I know that these guys could all be doing better. I've seen it and just want Melee and those guys to be doing their best. My position in the community is a very isolated one due to my health issues, and I did not mean to cause any controversy and certainly not any disrespect. I think well of those top players, which is why I want them to be their best as it pushes the game the most, but also because of how much I know good play and improvement means to them like it does to me. I feel pretty bad to be taken as meaning I think poorly of them and also just generally being hated on, but maybe I deserve it for messing up so much. Normally I would clarify things like this, but I honestly thought people didn't read this thread much besides those that ask for improvement. I also was in a pretty bad mood that day and just generally tired, so I didn't want to explain things beyond what I did. Still I should stick to keeping such criticisms to myself since I doubt it would help much and only anger people, regardless of my ability to play. Sorry about the comments.

I know I normally like to stay on the subject of Melee, but if anyone would like to address any of what I said for explanation here(I'm mostly referencing 2014 when everyone was hungry btw) then I can break it down here or in PMs.

That being said, I hope this does show that, for all I try to show I have things figured out, I still definitely make mistakes and will surely make more in the future like a regular person lol. Thanks for reading.
 

wizards64

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I'm not sure. But for what it's worth I'll clarify here:

I only want to see good play and I know that these guys could all be doing better. I've seen it and just want Melee and those guys to be doing their best. My position in the community is a very isolated one due to my health issues, and I did not mean to cause any controversy and certainly not any disrespect. I think well of those top players, which is why I want them to be their best as it pushes the game the most, but also because of how much I know good play and improvement means to them like it does to me. I feel pretty bad to be taken as meaning I think poorly of them and also just generally being hated on, but maybe I deserve it for messing up so much. Normally I would clarify things like this, but I honestly thought people didn't read this thread much besides those that ask for improvement. I also was in a pretty bad mood that day and just generally tired, so I didn't want to explain things beyond what I did. Still I should stick to keeping such criticisms to myself since I doubt it would help much and only anger people, regardless of my ability to play. Sorry about the comments.

I know I normally like to stay on the subject of Melee, but if anyone would like to address any of what I said for explanation here(I'm mostly referencing 2014 when everyone was hungry btw) then I can break it down here or in PMs.

That being said, I hope this does show that, for all I try to show I have things figured out, I still definitely make mistakes and will surely make more in the future like a regular person lol. Thanks for reading.
I thought your take on everything was sick, pointing everything out like how it is. I didn't think it was "bad" or that it makes you a "bad person." If the post means people hating on you, then I'm truly sorry that was not my intent whatsoever. If deleting it helps, then I'll go ahead and do that but its probably too late isn't it.
 

Dr Peepee

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I thought your take on everything was sick, pointing everything out like how it is. I didn't think it was "bad" or that it makes you a "bad person." If the post means people hating on you, then I'm truly sorry that was not my intent whatsoever. If deleting it helps, then I'll go ahead and do that but its probably too late isn't it.
Oh believe me there is a perfectionist part of me that wants to just tell it like it is as well, but on the internet this can often be misconstrued. I don't regret saying it per se, just not qualifying it/framing it better. I was very afraid when I saw the thread go up on Reddit about what it may have implied and how it may upset top players or those who really enjoyed Summit(it was an entertaining event despite my feelings tbh), but I don't actually know how bad it got or anything. I often avoid most things said about me on Reddit/Twitch and keep my Twitter presence lower to avoid it as well. You can use your own discretion for deleting it or not, but thanks for explaining your viewpoint.
 

wizards64

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Oh believe me there is a perfectionist part of me that wants to just tell it like it is as well, but on the internet this can often be misconstrued. I don't regret saying it per se, just not qualifying it/framing it better. I was very afraid when I saw the thread go up on Reddit about what it may have implied and how it may upset top players or those who really enjoyed Summit(it was an entertaining event despite my feelings tbh), but I don't actually know how bad it got or anything. I often avoid most things said about me on Reddit/Twitch and keep my Twitter presence lower to avoid it as well. You can use your own discretion for deleting it or not, but thanks for explaining your viewpoint.
For sure, thank you for elaborating. Looking forward to your return. Been watching Melee since 2011, and I've seen so many great things over the years, but it hasn't been the same since you left. I hope you don't stop expressing your opinions, but I understand that its hard to say it as it is without implying something you don't intend to. Gonna go delete it now.
 

Socrates

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1. Well they have to be close enough to do it quickly out of dash...maybe run, and of course your percent matters. Usually they will dash some before doing it, so out of stand is less likely. Not sure I remember more specifics right now.

2. Not sure whose WD you mean, but it's probably around a Marth WD distance in threat range...maybe a little less?

3. Grabbing Fox before he does it or Dtilt'ing him before he gets there are good. You can SH backward and use Fair/Nair but you can also retreating Bair if your back is to Fox. WD/dash away help you dodge it, and punishing OOS you can grab if he's close or you shield DI in and Fair might work the rest of the time I think.!
I guess I’m just trying to get a grasp on how or why I’m being caught by it so often. It seems to happen most often when I’m trying falling SH Fair in place/backwards to cover approaches. They sneak under the SH and upsmash. This might be a spacing issue on my end?
 

Dr Peepee

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If they're sneaking under your jump, you may want to drift back more, waveland back earlier, or don't jump when you think you should(or maybe FF earlier). If you can find the initial position that would also be helpful.
 

Kotastic

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So whenever I ledgedash, or more specifically when I jump to the point where it looks like I will ledgedash, some people tend to react to my ledgedash and call it out, such as Sheik running up dsmash to beat pretty much everything I have. A lot of times I try to feint a ledgedash by feint DJ then FF back down, but for some reason a lot of Sheik mains I tried doing it against don't fall for it. I may not be doing it perfectly. Sometimes though it doesn't even matter because run up d-smash beats ledgedash, haxdash, and that feint DJ. I've been bandaging this by doing jump ledge airdodge directly straight through them as a mixup, but am I simply not doing my options as frame-tight as possible? Or is there something I could be doing.

Additionally, I had the experience to fight against a decent ICs main who took me to the ropes, game 5 last stock situation. In between the set, I was so cautious about the potential wobble and random d/fsmashes that it indirectly caused a lot of stress on my part. Now I don't have any issues getting wobbled in it of itself, but by the end of the 25 min+ set, I was mentally exhausted from the constant lookout. I'll admit, I don't know the ICs that well, so that may play a role to the exhaustion with some matchup inexperience. Nonetheless with my other matches, my will to win was somewhat weaker than my previous matches when I went on to play WF/LF, and my losses in both of those sets were due to in part me not really having the fire to win. Is it a matter of experience to have the mental stamina to keep going?

Also, when doing group dash dancing, I have a general feel of the various kinds of responses for the Fox, Sheik, and Marth matchup due my extensive experience with those characters that are pretty common in my area when I play friendlies. However, I can't really say the same for the Falcon and puff mu because there's not really much of those characters around in my region. I think what tends to happen in those matchups, I group dash dance and expect a response, but I don't exactly know what to expect and end up getting surprised and hit by it, like puff responding with drift in feint bair pound, and I always get hit by pound. I never know what to expect with Falcon tbh, and I kind of automatically respond any change in his movement with drift back fair which I don't think is really the best option. I guess what I'm getting at is, how can I practice getting a response with group dash dancing with puff/Falcon with solo practice so I can respond accordingly?

Regarding Sheik's ledgedash, what's the best way to contain Sheik in the corner? I feel like sometimes I have to respect Sheik's invincible ledgedash DA/Boost grab which I can't react, resulting me to full length dash back. Sheik can mixup with invincible ftilt or jump needle, and I feel like with those mixups it's really hard to contain her. This is like, only really an issue playing with Faceroll since he actually gets the full invincibility, but damn it's frustrating playing him by the ledge.
 

Dr Peepee

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So first of all, you have a few frame leeway to shield out of perfect edgedash, so you may just need to tighten those up. Same with haxdash. NIL gives even more leniency iirc and it's certainly less technical so you could try that too. I also mess with my drift when I DJ to trick them. More than all of that though, you want to play with your regrab timing. Sounds weird, but it changes their timing to punish and keeps them from assuming you'll always act immediately out of edgegrab. This helps you gain some advantage back in the situation I've found, and it's especially useful vs Falco who will laser in time with your edgegrabs a lot.

Unfamiliarity forces you to use more conscious effort, which is a massive brain drain. So you definitely want to learn the matchup better so you can play it comfortably no matter the length of time. Even so, you may want to look into physical/mental training as well for backup energy as it can be hard to prepare for all situations.

Do you have counters to these Puff and Falcon plays? If you haven't mapped things out, then that would be why you struggle more in those matchups. You can practice by first figuring out exactly what positions/options give you trouble and working up solutions. Then practicing those solutions and going into shadowboxing to further understand them.

Oh interesting I never consider jump needle. Normally I'd say get just out of Ftilt range and hold down and Dtilt, but if Faceroll can hit lots of invincibility you may want to mix in SH when you see him come up and drift back a little to dodge Ftilt and then drift back in to hit needle or pressure needle landing if you confirm it. You could also just dash back, but if you're already getting hit by DA/BG then you're probably overdoing that option. If he has 1-2 needles you could probably just shield sometimes too since that would beat both options.
 

Kotastic

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"More than all of that though, you want to play with your regrab timing. Sounds weird, but it changes their timing to punish and keeps them from assuming you'll always act immediately out of edgegrab."

You don't mind citing specific examples for this? Again I feel like whenever I do that, people don't fall for my bluff and just stand there.

"Even so, you may want to look into physical/mental training as well for backup energy as it can be hard to prepare for all situations."
What does this mean? Exercise and meditation I suppose?
 
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Dr Peepee

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I'm not sure I've been recorded doing this, but M2K just hanging on the edge as opposed to regrabbing is one sort of way this happens. If people just stand there then it just depends on their spacing. If they can't be hit by Fair, often you can NIL and jab/Fsmash fairly safely, especially if you grab the edge just beforehand.

And yeah that is much of what I meant. Relieving psychological tensions and blockages also makes you much better at responding to daily life and competition as well.
 

Sylarius

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I don't really know what happened besides the edited post but I love you PP and know you mean well. I hope you don't beat yourself up over it, I've said some unbelievably dumb things in person and can't believe those (MUCH WORSE) words came out of my mouth. We're all human and I like that we're all human and are not perfect. And you're so honest and emotional I think it's a good thing being open rather than filtering too much.

I managed to place second today only getting eliminated by M2K. I couldn't channel your energies enough PP :( got 6-0'd lol but at least one game was last stock. The only time M2K got brought to last stock the tournament. Funnily he entered crews on a team of his own and took 19 stocks with his 4 (he only needed 20 to advance to the next round). He also brought up that he thinks you're the best Marth at the ditto. =) If that weren't obvious enough.
 

Kotastic

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I have a question regarding a juggle situation for Sheik that a friend struck me with that I couldn't confidently answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaupt0WM4yw&ab_channel=SDMTV#t=11m15s
Pretend that Sheik wasn't at 0 and that you know for certain Sheik will DJ so that Marth is positioning for a fair juggle situation. Marth tries to rising fair but gets caught by FF bair. Is it a timing trick that Marth has to do with rising fair, or is it a read that the Sheik will FF or not? If that's a case for reading the FF, then is juggling Sheik in the air really as advantageous conventional wisdom makes it out to be?

Additionally, how do you deal with Luigi's rising bair? I feel like the hitbox is similar to Sheik's fair in a sense that punishing it with rising fair is kinda hard but it's harder to cross up Luigi with how floaty he is. I feel like when I try to rising fair, I trade or get hit by another falling bair. Sometimes I've been calling it out with fsmash, but I think there's a better answer.

For Sheik's runoff fair on platform, I find it kinda hard to beat the fair straight-up with rising fair. I've found that a consistent answer is to rising fair before Sheik fairs (which loses to shield) or cross up grab (which loses to runoff bair). Do you have better answers?

Also, many times with your Marth I noticed that you prefer WD to ledge dair to read your opponent's DJ to ledge with few exceptions. Whenever I have a read that my opponent will DJ to ledge, I just jump offstage dair. Is there a reason why you prefer your classic WD to ledge DJ dair?
 
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Socrates

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Do you have any insight on getting over mental blocks against specific people? There are players that I have always lost to, and thus continue to lose to, and yet I can beat players that they regularly lose to.

It seems I get excess nerves playing against people “I think I should beat” based on past placings.
 

Dr Peepee

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I have a question regarding a juggle situation for Sheik that a friend struck me with that I couldn't confidently answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaupt0WM4yw&ab_channel=SDMTV#t=11m15s
Pretend that Sheik wasn't at 0 and that you know for certain Sheik will DJ so that Marth is positioning for a fair juggle situation. Marth tries to rising fair but gets caught by FF bair. Is it a timing trick that Marth has to do with rising fair, or is it a read that the Sheik will FF or not? If that's a case for reading the FF, then is juggling Sheik in the air really as advantageous conventional wisdom makes it out to be?

Additionally, how do you deal with Luigi's rising bair? I feel like the hitbox is similar to Sheik's fair in a sense that punishing it with rising fair is kinda hard but it's harder to cross up Luigi with how floaty he is. I feel like when I try to rising fair, I trade or get hit by another falling bair. Sometimes I've been calling it out with fsmash, but I think there's a better answer.

For Sheik's runoff fair on platform, I find it kinda hard to beat the fair straight-up with rising fair. I've found that a consistent answer is to rising fair before Sheik fairs (which loses to shield) or cross up grab (which loses to runoff bair). Do you have better answers?

Also, many times with your Marth I noticed that you prefer WD to ledge dair to read your opponent's DJ to ledge with few exceptions. Whenever I have a read that my opponent will DJ to ledge, I just jump offstage dair. Is there a reason why you prefer your classic WD to ledge DJ dair?
That looks like a pretty easy FF Uair reaction to me. But since Sheik would go farther at not-0, then you could I think running rising Fair and hit just fine then. I can do the specifics if you show me exactly which throw DI and % you're working with. The Sheik clearly committed to a FF quite high above the Marth, after Marth had already jumped, so his own FF should be extremely easy. Not only that, but the falling Bair hits above Sheik and extends her hurtbox, making her even easier to juggle. I'm not sure how this is an issue.

You can get hit with the higher part of Fair and be alright I'm pretty sure, but you can always just get under and Utilt/Uair if you're that unsure about it. Then when you have that going, you can SH and make them aerial and either land and hit them or DJ and Fair to get position/damage. Again, easier to describe with specifics but it does work fine.

You can Dtilt her landing, Fair as she lands/go over her Fair so she has to shield/ASDI down, you can run up hold down grab I guess....but yeah unless you predict with early Fair or something then Sheik can runoff Fair pretty reliably afaik. I think on levels with higher platforms I have gotten JC grabs on runoff Fairs, but that seems less possible on lower platforms iirc.

Hmm well it can depend on a LOT, but in the ditto for example I like WD after throws because they usually won't hit me then and often go low to avoid hits anyway, and then if they try to jump to edge I can react and DJ Dair invincibly and they can't do anything, or let go and hit them also invincibly. Now if I throw Falcon offstage I wouldn't WD to edge since you don't get a good setup out of this at most percents and situations, so I do runoff DJ Dair out of a quick confirm that he's falling and can't DJ back to stage(so more likely to DJ to edge and not DJ aerial).

Do you have any insight on getting over mental blocks against specific people? There are players that I have always lost to, and thus continue to lose to, and yet I can beat players that they regularly lose to.

It seems I get excess nerves playing against people “I think I should beat” based on past placings.
Well of course part of it is in-game. Maybe they are exploiting a weakness in your understanding, or putting you in a situation you don't know as well as you think, or playing a character in a frustrating way to you. That is usually part of it.

But if you're well above these people in ranks, it is likely more mental as you said. To answer this we need to ask ourselves why we don't handle these losses well in the first place. What do they mean? What questions do they raise? For many people, they raise questions like "am I really as good as I thought?" and "will other people think less of me if I lose?" This was very true for me and only got worse as I got better, and especially once I achieved my top player status. It seems very common for many people, which is why salty, or angry responses at these thoughts, can come out. Now some of it is healthier, since you had certain expectations and didn't meet them. The excessive emotion, and specific people becoming mental and emotional barriers due to their challenge of you means it is less healthy. What I like to do with these questions I asked earlier is think of them logically first. "Am I really as good as I thought?" Well, maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure though, being afraid of how good you are will just make you worse, so you need to trust your ability to improve and overcome any losses. This will paradoxically keep you from losing less, but you have to believe it. "Will other people think less of me if I lose?" Generally, no. People look more at trends, or they get hype for you after an upset until you get a reputation. Things can get more finnicky here sometimes with over-reactions to whatever recently happened, but even then people understand the long view more, especially when rankings help people put it in perspective. However, even if you decide that people will think less of you, that's less important to me than wondering why people should hold so much sway over your own growth. Do they all think of how much work you put in, or know how much your achievements mean to you? Probably not. Your relationship to your growth and achievements should be about what they mean to you, and the stronger you hold onto your goals and love of the game and determination, the less that outside stuff like others or circumstantial changes will affect you. Finally, some very important studies have shown that when people take a view of themselves as inflexible and good or bad at things, it makes them fall apart if they fail. If instead they view projects and success as about how much work you put in, then when you fail you just think you need to work harder or find a new way to succeed. This type of thinking you can see in any rising player or creative person, so it is very much worth adopting.

Hope something in there helps.
 

Socrates

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Well of course part of it is in-game. Maybe they are exploiting a weakness in your understanding, or putting you in a situation you don't know as well as you think, or playing a character in a frustrating way to you. That is usually part of it.

But if you're well above these people in ranks, it is likely more mental as you said. To answer this we need to ask ourselves why we don't handle these losses well in the first place. What do they mean? What questions do they raise? For many people, they raise questions like "am I really as good as I thought?" and "will other people think less of me if I lose?" This was very true for me and only got worse as I got better, and especially once I achieved my top player status. It seems very common for many people, which is why salty, or angry responses at these thoughts, can come out. Now some of it is healthier, since you had certain expectations and didn't meet them. The excessive emotion, and specific people becoming mental and emotional barriers due to their challenge of you means it is less healthy. What I like to do with these questions I asked earlier is think of them logically first. "Am I really as good as I thought?" Well, maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure though, being afraid of how good you are will just make you worse, so you need to trust your ability to improve and overcome any losses. This will paradoxically keep you from losing less, but you have to believe it. "Will other people think less of me if I lose?" Generally, no. People look more at trends, or they get hype for you after an upset until you get a reputation. Things can get more finnicky here sometimes with over-reactions to whatever recently happened, but even then people understand the long view more, especially when rankings help people put it in perspective. However, even if you decide that people will think less of you, that's less important to me than wondering why people should hold so much sway over your own growth. Do they all think of how much work you put in, or know how much your achievements mean to you? Probably not. Your relationship to your growth and achievements should be about what they mean to you, and the stronger you hold onto your goals and love of the game and determination, the less that outside stuff like others or circumstantial changes will affect you. Finally, some very important studies have shown that when people take a view of themselves as inflexible and good or bad at things, it makes them fall apart if they fail. If instead they view projects and success as about how much work you put in, then when you fail you just think you need to work harder or find a new way to succeed. This type of thinking you can see in any rising player or creative person, so it is very much worth adopting.

Hope something in there helps.
I think a lot of it does come from the opinion of the people around me if I fail. This includes the person I’m having trouble beating. It’s usually the case that we’re far from friends, so losing to them is a big ego hit.

This is something I’ll need to work on myself. Moving forward I’m going to try and take the approach of focussing on execution and applying fundamentals rather than strictly winning or losing. This may be lowering my standards but it’s probably a more productive mindset than my current one.

Getting your perspective really helps me understand my own a bit more. I imagine these sorts of feelings have the tendency to creep up easier as more pressure gets put on you to perform, so hearing from someone with more experience with it than me is helpful. Thanks as always.
 

AirFair

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I got to play against a strong fox player who would put me in a certain situation several times, and I've been thinking about it since we played. In neutral, he would often back up and laser, and mixed attacking and jumping to the side platform of battlefield(more often just jumping to the platform though) when I would push in. From that position, he would shield most of the time, and although he could have attacked from the platform, I believe I had discouraged those attacks by backing up when he got onto the platform. In order to beat him for doing this, I would try to come in with an sh so I could space a fair to hit his shield. There were mixed results to this.
https://youtu.be/WrC6lhLOC1k?t=1m56s
-here I caught him shield dropping with the fair, probably the only time it worked that well, but I missed the followup.
https://youtu.be/WrC6lhLOC1k?t=3m39s
-here I kept him on the platform as he would fh back oos as I would come forward with sh. I tried a dj fair that was supposed to hit him for doing fh oos, but he stayed shielding and I almost got punished. Would waiting for the fh have been better here? I'm not sure how to directly beat him in this case, and I feel like this was a huge opportunity that I missed out on, since this position was a recurring one in our set.
https://youtu.be/WrC6lhLOC1k?t=5m15s
-here I let him come down, maybe because I thought he was too far away for me to come in safely with an sh, and I was spaced to beat him attacking from the platform. Should I have just pushed in more after I saw the first shield?
https://youtu.be/WrC6lhLOC1k?t=6m8s
-In this case, I think I did an sh too early, and then tried to catch him as he jumped on the platform with a pivot fair that missed. I think that backing up here would have probably been better, since he was backing up already as I came in, and I would have been able to set up an sh if he shielded like he was doing, or done a bair to hit him if he tried running and attacking me from the platform.
https://youtu.be/WrC6lhLOC1k?t=7m20s
-I think I just drifted too far forward with the fair here, allowing him to shield drop fair me, but I believe that going in there was a good idea, because I'm thinking I had his attacks from the platform discouraged by that point.

Separate question, pertaining to practicing punishes. For punishes off of grab, do you practice mostly from a higher or lower port? I have always practiced from the higher port, but as I've noticed more and more the advantages of having the port closer to 4, I was wondering if it's worth practicing more from the lower port.
 

Dr Peepee

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For your second link, yeah you can wait or just DJ retreating Fair to hit him right as he comes OOS with no chance of followup, or DJ with no aerial to see what he does, etc. It's hard to hit the FH as he rises, and especially on BF with him being so far away from you it'll be REALLY hard to hit FH OOS as it rises without committing to something risky like this. I'd say punish FH as he falls which also helps with your punish game anyway.

At 5:16 there isn't much need to dash back once you see he's FH'ing/shielding unless you want to play defense, in which case waiting for him to drop and come at you was exactly what you wanted lol. If you said you discouraged his attacking from the platform and you want to pressure, then yeah you should have moved in then.

Assuming you mean backing up after the first Fair, sure that's not so bad. For the first Fair, you could have come in a little more first if you knew he wouldn't WD in OOS, and you didn't need to Fair once you confirmed how far away he was in his DJ, and could maybe have used your own DJ here. Using your Fair anyway put you in lag, which led to your later problems. So first of all, don't Fair just because you jumped. Hard habit to break so you can even practice this. Now that pivot Fair was actually pretty close to hitting so it wasn't a very bad idea, but you could have made it safer by dashing slightly farther in then retreating with the Fair, SH drifting to see where he goes and potentially punish, or move back as you said. Those are all fine options here. Oh yeah your Bair idea is alright too.

You may need to jump slightly closer to the platform so you can drift back and be safe, as that last Fair you pretty much had to drift in to get it to tip looks like. That's consistent with other things I said as well. You can also SH earlier but empty land safely as a bait/mixup, or just DJ Fair away so you can reverse your momentum quickly, or even WL back to reset your spacing immediately if you're worried about early shield drops.

I practice from port closer to 1 so I can handle the worst case scenario, but really you need to know both as much as you can.
 

quixotic

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Pp would you say that it's necessary for marth to use a lot of dtilt/jumping in place vs characters like luigi, peach, samus, ic's? Are there any other matchups where you'd consider zoning to be essential?
 

Dr Peepee

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Luigi and ICs yes, Peach you can or not, Samus I'm unsure. Vs bad characters below ICs not including Samus and Ganon(well maybe him too idk) you can zone out everyone and it's fine.
 

Kopaka

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Finally, some very important studies have shown that when people take a view of themselves as inflexible and good or bad at things, it makes them fall apart if they fail. If instead they view projects and success as about how much work you put in, then when you fail you just think you need to work harder or find a new way to succeed. This type of thinking you can see in any rising player or creative person, so it is very much worth adopting.

Hope something in there helps.
Have you ever read Mindset by Carol Dweck? The jist of it is exactly that.
 

Sylarius

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I asked M2K after WF for advice and he said "after the tournament" and then laughed. Then I asked him after the tournament and he said "I don't know, I don't really have a gameplan I just play how I feel." He also listed some REALLY generic stuff like "dtilt, crouch, nair". Nothing helpful lol.

How do you make the ditto so free PP?

Also this was the result of the neutral and theorycrafting stuff you have posted and that I tried to put together. I still end up losing this game though. OTL.

https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongBlindingVelociraptorBrokeBack
 

Dr Peepee

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I asked M2K after WF for advice and he said "after the tournament" and then laughed. Then I asked him after the tournament and he said "I don't know, I don't really have a gameplan I just play how I feel." He also listed some REALLY generic stuff like "dtilt, crouch, nair". Nothing helpful lol.

How do you make the ditto so free PP?

Also this was the result of the neutral and theorycrafting stuff you have posted and that I tried to put together. I still end up losing this game though. OTL.

https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongBlindingVelociraptorBrokeBack
He definitely has a gameplan, but like many top players doesn't always access it easily since so much is internalized. I think he was just being lazy in his response to you though, having seen him write many long walls of text to me about the game lol.

The ditto is about making use of your Dtilt to protect the ground and give you a way in as well as encouraging opponents to jump or shield. Less is more, throw them and kill them, etc.

Also nice stock lol most people wouldn't do the slight walk to make use of the slope there. So crucial as Marth, although you have to remember to walk back off of it when edgeguarding spacies sometimes which is a =(
 

Zorcey

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee I'm having a really demoralizing streak of bad play that's lasted the past few days, and I'm not sure what to do about it. I've experienced this before a few times, but tbh I can't remember how long it's lasted or when or why it's gone away. Bringing it up now because it's really stressing me out.

The parallels I see at these times are that they coincide with me doing a lot of analysis and practice, and also not being in the best state of personal mental health. Trying to describe my gameplay when feeling this way, is that it's almost entirely cognitive, except for a very small number of patterns I can't break. I feel like I'm very slow - much slower than my opponents. It seems like I make all my decisions too late, and drop almost everything. It's a negative feedback cycle, because playing so bad makes me play more to get more practice (because I can't get over believing it's just because I suck), which results in more bad play, etc. I went from feeling like I was on a steep incline of improvement over a week ago and playing great, to feeling like I've gotten significantly worse.

I don't know whether I need a break or not (I really don't want to take one). But if I don't take one, I'm not really sure what to do with myself, because even though I'm analyzing and practicing a lot I don't feel I'm actually taking any of it in, even when it's stuff I was really hype about practicing just a week ago. I'm sad and angry with the game on top of this, because it seems like my effort input/improvement output is much worse than everyone else's. It feels like my knowledge isn't ever reflected in my gameplay. This is a problem I've always had, but is exacerbated a lot by my current condition.

Any advice you have for this is hugely appreciated.
 

Dr Peepee

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Hmm, I think the only time I personally experienced some similar things was when I would be depressed. My mind would begin working against me after it had just worked for me. In these times I stopped trying to play so much and focused more on learning, sometimes spending a little more time per day learning about things unrelated to Melee to see if I could reset. I believed that worked well enough.

Let's also think about how we make these decisions. What initially happens is you are surprised when you get hit or something you thought would work didn't. This doesn't immediately lead to catastrophe. You have to get hit more, and then begin deciding it's not one time or one thing, but if you get hit somewhere else it begins to become something you can start generalizing with. Doubt can set in. Then you can say you are having a bad day, or bad week, or even that your skills are just not there like you thought they were, to finally questioning whether you could ever learn. It becomes more and more negative the more you think about these things, and your mind seeks to make this truer so more has to happen in the game for this to be confirmed. What really helped me is stopping right when I noticed this start to happen and begin thinking about why I actually got hit. I noticed if I was trying to solve the problem or starting to feel doubtful. If I felt doubtful, then I just stopped for the day. This prevented a lot of bad spirals, and in some cases reversed them. Stepping back a little more, I realized that going into sessions that I might not be thinking well to improve/refine and just playing because I felt I was supposed to. Negative thinking often made this likelier. While I couldn't necessarily stop the negative thinking at times of greater depression, I could at least keep it from getting worse by recognizing what was going on and altering my focus to more analysis and discussion with others so I didn't begin to doubt myself.

Maybe this isn't exactly what's going on for you, but I'd imagine that the process I suggested of catching your biases and looking at what's actually happening can still be useful.

Also likely worth keeping in mind is that you're not getting worse suddenly because you were JUST getting better. That type of stuff helped me a lot too because it let me know I was being really irrational and kept those more powerful emotions and thoughts at bay. Be kind to yourself.
 

Zorcey

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I can't really say whether it's the same or not, because I'm actually not sure how much of my problem is mental and how much is physical (either one of these seems plausible for causing slow, sloppy play). The end result of questioning "whether I could ever learn" is certainly accurate, because it doesn't seem entirely irrational if my learning methods are poor.

But I've been trying to focus on learning as well, which I've found somewhat helpful, but only until I try to implement, because it goes poorly and reinforces my thoughts that I've regressed somehow - on top of that it feels like I wasted my time because I can't do the thing I had literally just been working on. Should I try not to play on days when I feel this way, and focus on just analysis? I definitely relate to the feeling of playing "because I feel I'm supposed to," when I'm not actually in a good state of mind, so I haven't been able to pull myself away like that. I could just log everything I want to test and leave it for a better day though, I guess. With that I just worry I'll try to do too much at once and won't get anything out of it.

Still working on being kind to myself - I know you've given me that advice a lot and I feel bad that it's still something I struggle with, but you obviously know it's really difficult. I always tell myself that if I just reach goal X I'll give myself a break, but then I keep pushing that goal further and further away, and I'm not sure how to reframe that way of thinking.
 

Dr Peepee

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By physical do you mean taking care of your body? That's worth doing to help reduce these problems and help you learn better anyway if that's the case. If you mean physical in terms of training, then it might be your methods. However if those same methods were just working, it seems a little they would stop suddenly right?

Never force yourself to play. You should WANT to. You're wasting time otherwise, as you've seen. Just stick to analysis on those days I'd say.

Don't put kindness off, you need it now and every day. There is no excuse. The support of others doesn't work unless you support yourself, aka you're all you've got, can you afford to not start now?
 

Kotastic

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How would you go about best dealing with compliments and expectations regarding your play? I generally try to wave them off and focus on my own expectations and goals, but sometimes I get a little feeling to just disappear, aka sabotaging my own success. I actually really don't like it when people excessively compliment my play or overrate me. I remember you talking about this to someone way back and replacing those thoughts with healthy responses, but what should I actually think instead?
 

Zorcey

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I mean both, actually. I already do my best to take care of my body, but I've never had the best health physically or mentally, so problems often come up I need to take care of. Doing so does certainly help, yeah. For training methods I'm still uncertain though, because placebo could be a thing? Maybe I was just playing well and didn't actually internalize a lot of good strategies?

Maybe I could just describe how I approach things. I look for situations I think are important in either my own or top player matches, try to figure what the strong options my opponent has are, and come up with counters Then I turn the specifics from those counters into a general rule about how to handle that situation. An example might be Sheik at WD Dtilt TR:

First I try and figure out what Sheik's strong options at Marth TR are:
- Dash Attack
- Boost Grab
- WD back
- Needle throw
- SH/FH away
- Nair in place

Then I'll try to figure out how to counter each option:

Counters to Sheik's strong options at Marth TR:
- Dash Attack
Can be CC'd until 65%, can be DD grabbed if not overshot, Marth can jump over it early
- Boost Grab
Marth can WD in place Dtilt, can be DD grabbed if not overshot, Marth can jump over it early
- WD back
Marth can overshoot Dtilt, or just dash in > WD back
- Needle throw
Marth can take Needles > dash, dash SideB, or jump over them
- SH/FH away
Marth can dash Fair/Nair, or just WD in
- SH Nair in place
Marth can dash Fair/Nair, or delay WD in

Then I take all these possible answers, and combine them into a general statement about the situation:
"When Sheik is in Marth WD Dtilt TR, if she commits to forward movement Marth can either WD back to cover an early DA/BG, or Dtilt in place to cover a late one. If Sheik moves back, Marth wants to move in."

Then I'll take this tentative generalization, and think about it while playing. If it's a situation that requires a lot of tight timings I'll practice it, but with something like this I would try to shadowbox it out (something I'm trying to learn atm), or apply it in friendlies. I then make adjustments to the rule as I figure out new things.

Does all this sound like a good approach? I've put a lot of thought and trial and error into it, but I'm not as confident as I'd like to be, since it's not like I have any results yet. Maybe your thoughts/suggestions will help though.

Anyway, okay, I'm going to stop forcing myself to play then. I will just focus on analysis when I'm having trouble, in that case. I guess this can be another step towards being kinder to myself, and trusting that I will learn this game and become a top player if I just keep going.
 

Dr Peepee

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How would you go about best dealing with compliments and expectations regarding your play? I generally try to wave them off and focus on my own expectations and goals, but sometimes I get a little feeling to just disappear, aka sabotaging my own success. I actually really don't like it when people excessively compliment my play or overrate me. I remember you talking about this to someone way back and replacing those thoughts with healthy responses, but what should I actually think instead?
Well, certainly complements are better than hate, but they can be just as bad as you said. Really, you want to see what they're saying as a kindness, and not necessarily take what they say literally about you being amazing or the next thing or whatever(so not literally, or not holding onto it at least).

For this, I reframe compliments as appreciative statements people make out of enjoyment or love of my play and don't take the literal words to heart so much. That way I can enjoy their kindness but also not let it get to me. Let's also keep in mind that there is something a bit ridiculous about being excessively praised, as we instinctively know we are not really worth way more than any other person or anything like that. So instead of thinking "wow they think I'm so good, but am I really?" or "I don't deserve this" I think "ah that's super nice of them to say" or "I have to work hard to continue to bring people joy." Of course for that second one it can lead to you feeling dependent on them still, so you may need to take time working out your relationship to the game and to others first. As with many mental and emotional issues, whatever brings you back to the creative process and doing what you love and feeling passionate about it is your goal, so feel free to be flexible to get there. That being said, being appreciated still feels nice so it's not something to especially shy away from, just something to be put into context I think.

I mean both, actually. I already do my best to take care of my body, but I've never had the best health physically or mentally, so problems often come up I need to take care of. Doing so does certainly help, yeah. For training methods I'm still uncertain though, because placebo could be a thing? Maybe I was just playing well and didn't actually internalize a lot of good strategies?

Maybe I could just describe how I approach things. I look for situations I think are important in either my own or top player matches, try to figure what the strong options my opponent has are, and come up with counters Then I turn the specifics from those counters into a general rule about how to handle that situation. An example might be Sheik at WD Dtilt TR:

First I try and figure out what Sheik's strong options at Marth TR are:
- Dash Attack
- Boost Grab
- WD back
- Needle throw
- SH/FH away
- Nair in place

Then I'll try to figure out how to counter each option:

Counters to Sheik's strong options at Marth TR:
- Dash Attack
Can be CC'd until 65%, can be DD grabbed if not overshot, Marth can jump over it early
- Boost Grab
Marth can WD in place Dtilt, can be DD grabbed if not overshot, Marth can jump over it early
- WD back
Marth can overshoot Dtilt, or just dash in > WD back
- Needle throw
Marth can take Needles > dash, dash SideB, or jump over them
- SH/FH away
Marth can dash Fair/Nair, or just WD in
- SH Nair in place
Marth can dash Fair/Nair, or delay WD in

Then I take all these possible answers, and combine them into a general statement about the situation:
"When Sheik is in Marth WD Dtilt TR, if she commits to forward movement Marth can either WD back to cover an early DA/BG, or Dtilt in place to cover a late one. If Sheik moves back, Marth wants to move in."

Then I'll take this tentative generalization, and think about it while playing. If it's a situation that requires a lot of tight timings I'll practice it, but with something like this I would try to shadowbox it out (something I'm trying to learn atm), or apply it in friendlies. I then make adjustments to the rule as I figure out new things.

Does all this sound like a good approach? I've put a lot of thought and trial and error into it, but I'm not as confident as I'd like to be, since it's not like I have any results yet. Maybe your thoughts/suggestions will help though.

Anyway, okay, I'm going to stop forcing myself to play then. I will just focus on analysis when I'm having trouble, in that case. I guess this can be another step towards being kinder to myself, and trusting that I will learn this game and become a top player if I just keep going.
I noticed I could only consistently play well when I had a good mind and body day and I even wrote down things I thought to myself before playing or when thinking about playing. Perhaps you'd also find that useful.
And why would you play well? It doesn't just happen, it still requires in game and out of game strategies. I don't think you can discount your training at this time unless you want to say that your training and work has led you absolutely nowhere and you haven't gotten better since you've ever tried to train. Sure you can do better, but that doesn't mean you don't have good ideas.

That sounds like a fine approach to me. Perhaps you can look into a little bit of closer range options as well, like when and where your Fair beats her Fair and Ftilt/Dtilt for example so you can think about how transitioning from TR to closer range(no matter which character does it).

I think that's fine to try for now. Maybe a better general strategy here is to think that if you find something that isn't working or making you feel bad, change it. At least change SOMETHING. If you keep playing around with it, eventually you'll find exactly what works.
 

Kotastic

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Interesting response, thanks! I will definitely think of it in that framework instead.

However, you bring up an interesting point that getting compliments is generally better than getting hate. For me personally, I ride a lot of motivation to prove people wrong, go above and beyond to shatter their perceptions about me. Although, I never really dealt with excessive hate so I can't say for sure how I would respond, but it would come sooner or later. With the way how I deal with hate, which is proving them wrong which is perhaps my most powerful motivator, is it the right way to go? Oh and I suppose if people were to hate on my playstyle, I generally wouldn't care and focus on myself, but I can see it getting to me eventually. Best way to deal with that?
 

Dr Peepee

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Oh yeah when I say hate I tend to mean much more nasty stuff and often when you get loads of love and hate the hate feels stronger. This is why many top players keep controversial opinions to themselves.

I think there is some good in trying to prove others wrong, but it might be just as worthwhile to consider why they're hating when that works less. Generally it's because they struggle with something themselves, are having a bad day, or that's just how they respond to things overall because of pain in their lives. In this way, negativity is something to be compassionate toward since it means those who show it are openly demonstrating their pain and so they must really need it. For me, that takes focus away from their literal words again and helps me see their emotional content here. When I do this, I can connect with them if I'm talking individually/replying online, or at least feel way less bad about it. Now sometimes if you say things that do anger people it'll be because of your own issues, but that's not what you're talking about here. Still I felt it was worth mentioning.
 

AirFair

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That sounds like a fine approach to me. Perhaps you can look into a little bit of closer range options as well, like when and where your Fair beats her Fair and Ftilt/Dtilt for example so you can think about how transitioning from TR to closer range(no matter which character does it).
For this kind of positional study, do you factor in who acts first in these situations, or is it more like both are happening at the same time? I usually try and think about the startup of each option when I'm looking at these kinds of things, so generally I look at it as if both characters are acting at the same time, at least with closer positions where I think that reacting in time isn't possible.

might be a seemingly strange question, but it's the way I feel like these kinds of things play out in matches.
 
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