Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[wmish]

thanks for responding so quickly.

you're totally right, i can't believe i overlooked dashing forward and observing. in-game pressure always pushed me away, maybe. wd forward jab sounds amazing too, i'm gonna try them both next time.

for each individual option, i think i mostly have a grasp of what beats what, but i guess i just can't get a read on what option he'll choose and so i'm afraid to commit and take opportunities in fear of getting beat out. there's a defeatist in my head and i think it's convinced me that he has some kind of clairvoyance when that's obviously not the case. i'm gonna work on my option choices and confidence in responding to his tools and i imagine that'll buy me some breathing room after a few neutral wins

i see tangible improvement vs nearly everyone except this one falco, and thanks to you, i know why. my ego is definitely getting in the way and i guess i'm reluctant to accept losses to someone who acts like that.

time to swallow my pride and get to practicing. thank you very much pp.

 

[maclo4]

I am really struggling to understand the concept of in-fighting and out-fighting in a practical sense. I think I understand how you would define the two, but I feel like i have a really shallow understanding of how the concepts can be applied to strategy in game. Would an example of out fighting would be a falcon sh nairing from far away and marth reacting by sh fairing his approach? And in fighting would be if falcon was closer and just grabs you and you dont have enough time to react, for example?

But I feel like I only have a vague idea of why you say this is so important to understand. Does it just have to do with understanding how decisions change at different ranges? Idk i feel like i just need some help clarifying the concept in my head

 

[Dr Peepee]

Out fighting is like fighting outside of threatening range or arguably at it. Out fighting means you're fighting past the point where the opponent can react to you coming in with an attack. So it is kinda like being able to react to Falcon Nair, but from that position you can still do partial approaches or observe what they do with moving in and even transition to in fighting. In fighting is closer and not necessarily reactable in range and so requires different ways of thinking about how to fight here.

 

[maclo4]

I guess I just dont understand how you can "fight" outside of threatening range.

edit: Nvm pretty sure I understand what you are saying, just the wording is confusing me a bit

 

[retepification]

Hey guys do you think claw is the optimal way to play marth. Anyone wanna talk about the pros and cons. I'm kinda new to these postings and have poor English but I'm gonna win a major next year for sure with marth. All help would be greatly appreciated

 

[lokt]

Out fighting is like fighting outside of threatening range or arguably at it. Out fighting means you're fighting past the point where the opponent can react to you coming in with an attack. So it is kinda like being able to react to Falcon Nair, but from that position you can still do partial approaches or observe what they do with moving in and even transition to in fighting. In fighting is closer and not necessarily reactable in range and so requires different ways of thinking about how to fight here.

I'm pretty confused about how outfighting works. From what I understand, the partial approaches(moving into threatening range) you're talking about are meant to bait out a response from an opponent. However, wouldn't you need to actually approach from this range sometimes to make these partial approaches threatening? Like why can't my opponent just move forward whenever they see me do a partial approach from this range, knowing that I won't actually approach?

 

[AirFair]

I'm pretty confused about how outfighting works. From what I understand, the partial approaches(moving into threatening range) you're talking about are meant to bait out a response from an opponent. However, wouldn't you need to actually approach from this range sometimes to make these partial approaches threatening? Like why can't my opponent just move forward whenever they see me do a partial approach from this range, knowing that I won't actually approach?

I think you're right about this. You gain your information, and then using that information can see how you want to approach them in the future, like whether to use dtilt, grab, etc. Outfighting is using the information that you have gained in this kind of way I think, from outside their threatening range of course.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hey guys do you think claw is the optimal way to play marth. Anyone wanna talk about the pros and cons. I'm kinda new to these postings and have poor English but I'm gonna win a major next year for sure with marth. All help would be greatly appreciated

I play with claw (thumb on c-stick, index for A/B, middle for Y, ring for Z) and it works very well for me. I don't think it is character-dependent. As an example, this allows for doing all your normal stuff in neutral with ASDI down, and there are a lot of little option selects that become possible if you can use all these buttons independent of each other.
Most pro players don't play with claw so it isn't necessary at all. You also need to check if claw is unproblematic for your hand health, some players reported that they have hand pain when playing that way. If that turns out not to be a problem, try it out and see how it works for you.
Also, if you are new to the game, don't expect to win a major next year (not meant to discourage, just don't set your hopes too high and then be disappointed). The game is difficult and progress needs a lot of time. However, if you keep working on your game, I'm sure you will see results at some point

I'm pretty confused about how outfighting works. From what I understand, the partial approaches(moving into threatening range) you're talking about are meant to bait out a response from an opponent. However, wouldn't you need to actually approach from this range sometimes to make these partial approaches threatening? Like why can't my opponent just move forward whenever they see me do a partial approach from this range, knowing that I won't actually approach?

You need to mixup between actual approaches and "partial approaches". The trick is to find ways to make the approaches less risky, so your fakeouts become effective without putting yourself at too high of a risk.

I understood the outfighting term even differently (lol), more like a positioning battle that starts before anyone is in anyone's threatzone. The example you gave would be border-fighting to me (at the edges of the threatening ranges). One could think that the optimal way to play at anything above the threatening range is dashing in until you are at the border of your opponent's threatening range, because you maximize space without being at risk of getting hit before that. This would be a very easy solution and would make a specific term for the scenario obsolete.

However, matters are not so simple. Being outside of the threatening range means that you could react to an attack or forward movement and not get hit. This still leaves the question open how you can respond to someone extending their threatening zone so that it includes you. If you are just outside of the threatening zone, you only would barely be able to register the information before the potential attack arrives, which means you are practically forced to shield to make sure you don't get hit. If you keep a little more distance, you can dash away in time (which is what people usually mean when they say out of threatening range). If you want to use attacks to respond to their threat and not have to commit to them beforehand, you need to keep even more range.

It should also be noted that even if you want to dash away and whiffpunish if they attack, it can make sense to keep a little bit more range than the bare minimum to be able to dash away in time in certain cases. For example, you can't stay out of the threatening range of characters that are faster than you with dash away, because they will simply catch up, and you will be forced to either shield or be at risk of getting hit.

Another scenario is if the opponent chases you for a while before commiting to the attack that you then avoid by dashing away. By the time you have avoided it you are usually in run animation so you won't even be able to whiffpunish. The foxtrot (initial dash->neutral stick position->initial dash) is the option to beat that but you move slightly slower comnpared to dashing/running all the way, so to be able to avoid an attack with the foxtrot you need to keep more range.

Obviously you can't always keep this much distance because you will just get cornered, but this was just supposed to show that the battle starts before anyone is in anyone's threatening range and hence the term out-fighting.

tldr: sometimes it makes sense to keep even more distance than the threatening range so you have time to set up stuff; when the players have that much distance, I understand it as out-fighting

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm pretty confused about how outfighting works. From what I understand, the partial approaches(moving into threatening range) you're talking about are meant to bait out a response from an opponent. However, wouldn't you need to actually approach from this range sometimes to make these partial approaches threatening? Like why can't my opponent just move forward whenever they see me do a partial approach from this range, knowing that I won't actually approach?

In fighting and out fighting are interrelated. I only divide them so people look at the individual positions. In a match, you do transition quickly from out fighting to in fighting in order to score hits or gain information or manipulate your opponent.

As to your last question, yes that's pretty much why intention theory exists. If you only ever partial approach or only ever move forward a little but aren't trying to approach, you get picked off. You need to abuse those visual/audio cues as well as sometimes just go in so your opponent is not aware what you'll try next or what a given cue could mean.

Edit: I can probably simplify this. Let's say you dash/run in. If you mix up doing a full approach and a WD back, it'll be really hard/impossible for the opponent to know which option you're choosing unless they also did something to manipulate your decision. This means you can gather information using pokes and zoning and fakes and it also means your opponent has a lot more to deal with mentally and you can overwhelm them that way.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I've been having this problem lately, and I think now would be a better time than ever to ask you for advice on this.

Recently I find my play has been extremely overtook by well..emotion? I try my best to come in with a clear mind but I find the more I try to do that the more I get angry when I can't keep calm while playing? This hasn't exactly been an issue in quite a while. I just find I get frustrated when I can't do what I feel like I'm able to (I'm setting bad expectations for myself) and it's just not fun sometimes.

But I desperately want to play the game with a cool head again, it's making me kinda sad because this game is amazing to me.

Soooo...the question in specific is...How would you go about controlling your emotions through preparation outside of the game as well while playing?

(Sorry if this doesn't belong here)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been having this problem lately, and I think now would be a better time than ever to ask you for advice on this.

Recently I find my play has been extremely overtook by well..emotion? I try my best to come in with a clear mind but I find the more I try to do that the more I get angry when I can't keep calm while playing? This hasn't exactly been an issue in quite a while. I just find I get frustrated when I can't do what I feel like I'm able to (I'm setting bad expectations for myself) and it's just not fun sometimes.

But I desperately want to play the game with a cool head again, it's making me kinda sad because this game is amazing to me.

Soooo...the question in specific is...How would you go about controlling your emotions through preparation outside of the game as well while playing?

(Sorry if this doesn't belong here)

There are two really good things to do here:

1. Find out why you're mad and how you're thinking about it. So even if you know you can't do what you want, what does it actually mean to you? You've made mistakes before and not been upset about it, so why does it now?

2. Start a new relationship with the game. Thinking about how you used to think when you made mistakes, how you approached the game and thought of yourself and your goals and the possibilities are what get you started on the right path. It's not enough to know what's wrong you also need to know how to talk to yourself to do it right.

I meditate to do these things and encounter these thoughts. Maybe you could walk/exercise and do it or find whatever method works best for you. This is important to your growth though and I hope you'll keep trying different things to work it out.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Normally I would like and move on but I want to thank you for giving your advice. I'm sort of struggling with the same thing in real life and I didn't know what direction to take to help mend the issue. I think using smash as a means of improving myself in that way would be a great idea.

SO thank you :D

 

[Kaoak]

Hey PPMD, I could use some help dealing with respawn invincibility and also the stage position my opponent gains from it, this is particularly referring to vertically mobile characters, such as Falco, Fox, Marth, Falcon and especially Sheik.

As a Marth player, I generally am good at forcing my opponent into bad positions, but I have a hard time getting out of those same positions myself, which to an extent is fine because I am generally better at putting my opponent in bad spots than they are at putting me into bad spots. Respawn invincibility poses a big problem for me because my opponent essentially puts me into what feels like a very bad position every time they are killed and respawn. I have tried using my mobility to juke out my opponents by faking running through them, using platform wavelands and shield drops, but most of the time I am either hit by them while they are still invincible, or they win the next neutral because I can't get myself out of the corner. I've tried camping ledge with ledge regrabs, fair regrabs, but I have a hard time getting back to stage when I cannot aerial my way back (since my opponent can crouch cancel it), and haxdash, ledgedash and regular getup options become my only way out. Even if I do make it back onstage without getting hit I find that I have to make yet another read to either hit my opponent or sneak my way out of the corner. What is your advice for dealing with this situation by securing either a hit or center stage position against an opponent who has just respawned? Advice for this situation in general and/or character specific advice would be super appreciated.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah Marth cornered or on the edge is a very bad position for him, even more so when the opponent is at 0. One thing to help with this is to grind out those positions vs those characters at 0 on the legal stages so you're comfortable in them. The other is to play invincibility differently to try and have a better position at the end of it. Crossing up a player once if you drag it out beforehand is all you need to get position with them losing invincibility. However, some characters this doesn't work on and some players handle invincibility differently. I'd recommend spending time just analyzing how some players handle it. Some spam moves in place to avoid cross up and ensure cornering. Some players rush you down. Some players stagger their approach or switch between styles. Knowing the good options you listed isn't enough, you need to know how best to use them to influence your opponent and also how your opponent is looking to control you.

Also it's usually not worth it to do any platform stuff vs Falcon. That guy has fast upward hitting moves and theyre usually out.

 

[PolishSmash]

Hi PP,

How is it that top players switch between different characters so easily? Each character has a different jump squat. So when I switch between Falco and Captain Falcon for example my fast fall timing and feel of the character is way off. Is it just from playing a lot? I only play on the weekends with friends. Thanks and Happy Fathers Day!

 

[PhotonSSBM]

Hi PP,

I have a couple Sheik questions. When sheik isn't in a position where she can hit me with anything but needles, what should I be doing? Right now I dash dance to bait an approach or poke with down-tilt, but I have a tendency to get dash attacked out of the dash dance or run up shield grabbed out of my down tilts. I try to adjust but I keep getting consistently caught by attacks like this and others in neutral and I'm sometimes at a loss as to how to adjust my play to account for these options.

Also in general I have a really hard time logging behavior in neutral in my head and calling out stuff that I know is going to happen due to the players repetitiveness. An example will be I'll notice a player is rolling behind me a lot, but I just can't react in time to punish it, and I've been trying to focus on this for the past several weeks. What goes on in your head when you're logging information and how long did it take you to get to where you could call on that log to punish people?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi PP,

How is it that top players switch between different characters so easily? Each character has a different jump squat. So when I switch between Falco and Captain Falcon for example my fast fall timing and feel of the character is way off. Is it just from playing a lot? I only play on the weekends with friends. Thanks and Happy Fathers Day!

Happy Fathers Day to you too!

The main way to think of this is that each individual character is practiced a ton so they can switch to different patterns of presses easily. My hunch that I also have about this is that your main character is your base jumpsquat/tech and then other characters you learn in reference to the base. So you know to jump a little later but FF earlier with Falco than Falcon if Falcon is your main, or something like that.

Hi PP,

I have a couple Sheik questions. When sheik isn't in a position where she can hit me with anything but needles, what should I be doing? Right now I dash dance to bait an approach or poke with down-tilt, but I have a tendency to get dash attacked out of the dash dance or run up shield grabbed out of my down tilts. I try to adjust but I keep getting consistently caught by attacks like this and others in neutral and I'm sometimes at a loss as to how to adjust my play to account for these options.

Also in general I have a really hard time logging behavior in neutral in my head and calling out stuff that I know is going to happen due to the players repetitiveness. An example will be I'll notice a player is rolling behind me a lot, but I just can't react in time to punish it, and I've been trying to focus on this for the past several weeks. What goes on in your head when you're logging information and how long did it take you to get to where you could call on that log to punish people?

Well, you can hold C stick down/react with holding control stick down to beat dash attacks for a while or just shield grab them, and you can always dash away after hitting shield with Dtilt(you can practice this in 20XX). More than that though, you probably overuse DD and so I would suggest simplifying. Do minimal amounts of dashes(1-2) before making a decision. Even if that decision is like a WD back, you can mix dashing back in then. Doing so lets you observe the opponent much more easily since you won't be bogged down with doing a bunch of tech done in a way you probably haven't practiced and is also difficult.

For shield pressure, just keep it simple and focus primarily on Fair/Dtilt pokes. Change up your timing a bit and sometimes don't swing at all and it'll also be easier to catch rolls. Chances are you're giving a tell/acting predictably and the opponent knows they can roll, so change up what you do when pressuring to catch the roll/action OOS.

 

[Blatant J]

Leffen said on twitter recently that haxdashing is bad since you risk SDing and it has to be frame perfect to remain fully intangible, yet I've seen you say it is good, why do you disagree with leffen?

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hello again! I just want to have your opinion on a certain tactic and want to know if you could help expand on it.

I was wondering if you could use information you've gathered about your opponent in other segments in past parts of the match and use it to predict future responses. A very broad example is a player who is very aggressive in the neutral who may act aggressive in states such as the disadvantage (like landing towards you to intercept any attempted aggression).

Not sure I worded that right. But what I'm trying to ask is if you can use prior actions to see what type of player they are to predict them more efficiently in the future. Could you give examples of why or why not?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Leffen said on twitter recently that haxdashing is bad since you risk SDing and it has to be frame perfect to remain fully intangible, yet I've seen you say it is good, why do you disagree with leffen?

Well he's right that is difficult to do 100% safely, but I disagree with saying it's bad. Most people give Marth a very wide space to get onstage because of his edgehop Fair. Also, his edgedash goes pretty far too even if it's not invincible very long. This visual cue of moving onstage would more likely prompt people to pull back, meaning you could haxdash pretty safely. Now if you had been edgecamping a lot and wanted to do this, then yeah you'd need to do it perfectly since they might be challenging you. If you are mixing up offense and defense from the edge and keeping your Fair threat relevant you should be fine even if you're off by a frame or two. Also if you practice it enough you won't SD, that's like being concerned about SD'ing from Fox edgedash but Leffen is amazing at that lol(he may say haxdash is harder but I almost never kill myself with it even if I do sacrifice full invincibility sometimes so it's not as if it's impractical).

Basically I believe haxdash, even done not perfectly, is an awesome mixup to edgehop Fair, edgedash, and NIL(Fsmash), and this would change in the context of edgecamping as opposed to fighting to get back onstage.

Hello again! I just want to have your opinion on a certain tactic and want to know if you could help expand on it.

I was wondering if you could use information you've gathered about your opponent in other segments in past parts of the match and use it to predict future responses. A very broad example is a player who is very aggressive in the neutral who may act aggressive in states such as the disadvantage (like landing towards you to intercept any attempted aggression).

Not sure I worded that right. But what I'm trying to ask is if you can use prior actions to see what type of player they are to predict them more efficiently in the future. Could you give examples of why or why not?

Yes you absolutely can do that. You gain more and more accuracy if you do this often enough with many types of players. So maybe most aggressive players actually freeze up in spots where they're forced into defense, or maybe they do usually attack out or maybe there is something that could explain why both could happen. The way to sort new players categorically is to have a broad analysis of all similar types of players and then organize that information into subcategories(wild aggression that is reckless vs more controlled aggression as an example).

Basically yes use what's in front of you but you'll do even better if you have looked at a wide range of people and use that well of knowledge.

 

[bts.mongoose]

Do you have any recommended reading for intention theory? The way you talk about it makes me think it's an established area of study, but searching it up has given me mixed results. Are there any other key terms that would be good to search for?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you have any recommended reading for intention theory? The way you talk about it makes me think it's an established area of study, but searching it up has given me mixed results. Are there any other key terms that would be good to search for?

I truthfully just have the basic concept of it from someone else, so I'm not sure where else to learn more about it. Even sometimes when I try to explain it in depth with different nuances to people I become unsure of what it actually is. It's something I want to explore more so if you want to understand it more you can ask here and I'll do my best, and if I find anything about it I can post it here.

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

This isn't really as much of a question as it is a thank you for doing that Q&A last night. I was really having trouble finding direction for solo-practicing. When you gave some advice on what to do, it made me extremely motivated because I had a clear idea on what I could do to improve even though I rarely play with other people. Thank you!

 

[Bob Money]

Do you have any recommended reading for intention theory? The way you talk about it makes me think it's an established area of study, but searching it up has given me mixed results. Are there any other key terms that would be good to search for?

Hey there, I like to read KK's old blogs to think about intention (if I'm understanding what you're asking for) KK is super good at understanding what other players want. You can kinda see that when he plays against foxes he hits alot of sick ftilts in neutral and in general is one of the few players that can slow the game down really well.
Player vs Player , talks about intentions or goals (maybe same thing in this context) and makes it digestible and simple. Watch KK and hes soooo good at this stuff lol
http://myneverendingbrainstorm.blogspot.com/2014/07/goals-in-ssbm-intro-to-player-vs-player.html

Hope this helps :D

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
What do you think about the value of centerstage?

I've recently come across a few examples where players didn't bother taking centerstage too much and was wondering if there are exceptions to the rule of thumb that centerstage is important.

With Mew2King, it isn't anything new, and his practice in these situations makes it worth for him even though the situation he finds himself in aren't always good from an objective standpoint.

Zain also often dashdances by the edge. I think he is taking advantage of his ability to use the last bits of the stage, provoking bad aerials which can be dashdanced around, while the player doing them thinks one would have to shield to not get hit by them.
In other situations where players have success playing by the corners, they seem to take advantage of opponents that take space too fast, or want to increase the relevance of the punish game relative to the neutral game by making edgeguard scenarios more likely.

Another reason to play by the corners is to have access to the side platforms. This isn't as relevant for Marth, but I noticed it especially with Fox and Sheik players, and I think it might be one of the more sound reasons to play by the corners.


About anti-approach attacks

I feel like this is also one of the more recent trends, especially among Foxes and Falcos with their up-tilts, but I am unsure if it is justified or if it only banks on incorrect attacking technique... From watching your games, it seems like you were never too much of a fan of these attacks.

They are used in all kinds of situations, but from my observation most commonly in situations with small frame disadvantage (like after a whiff), where the opponent has a reason to run in. But you also see them in "true neutral" and various other situations. I wondered why they work so well, because I thought that mixing up various delay timings (WD down, very short dash away built into the dash in, wait->dash in) would in average score very well against these attacks.

Is there an option that beats these delayed approaches by a huge margin and therefore disincentivizes them? Are the vulnerable windows too small compared to the active frames to make challenging worth? Or are players just not practiced enough in recognizing the anti-approach attacks and therefore miss punishes?



By the way, you mentioned in the interview that you collect your ideas on some file. This has also worked very well for me so far (I do this for around 1 month now). Could be either because one focuses the attention in the right way when forced to make notes, or it helps remembering and not forgetting the things one learned. That it worked that well honestly surprised me because I have tried this theoretical approach in chess before where it didn't work too well.
Anyways, I could relate to what you said about friendlies, analysis and practice and that you can improve a lot doing 2 of those (to be fair, there are probably many top players who only improved with friendlies and practice, so I guess it also works the other way around )

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey there, I like to read KK's old blogs to think about intention (if I'm understanding what you're asking for) KK is super good at understanding what other players want. You can kinda see that when he plays against foxes he hits alot of sick ftilts in neutral and in general is one of the few players that can slow the game down really well.
Player vs Player , talks about intentions or goals (maybe same thing in this context) and makes it digestible and simple. Watch KK and hes soooo good at this stuff lol
http://myneverendingbrainstorm.blogspot.com/2014/07/goals-in-ssbm-intro-to-player-vs-player.html

Hope this helps :D

This is a great post, but doesn't exactly cover what I'm suggesting. Still it provides some information related to it and is just useful overall. Knowing your threats and goals helps you organize your intent.

Dr Peepee
What do you think about the value of centerstage?

I've recently come across a few examples where players didn't bother taking centerstage too much and was wondering if there are exceptions to the rule of thumb that centerstage is important.

With Mew2King, it isn't anything new, and his practice in these situations makes it worth for him even though the situation he finds himself in aren't always good from an objective standpoint.

Zain also often dashdances by the edge. I think he is taking advantage of his ability to use the last bits of the stage, provoking bad aerials which can be dashdanced around, while the player doing them thinks one would have to shield to not get hit by them.
In other situations where players have success playing by the corners, they seem to take advantage of opponents that take space too fast, or want to increase the relevance of the punish game relative to the neutral game by making edgeguard scenarios more likely.

Another reason to play by the corners is to have access to the side platforms. This isn't as relevant for Marth, but I noticed it especially with Fox and Sheik players, and I think it might be one of the more sound reasons to play by the corners.


About anti-approach attacks

I feel like this is also one of the more recent trends, especially among Foxes and Falcos with their up-tilts, but I am unsure if it is justified or if it only banks on incorrect attacking technique... From watching your games, it seems like you were never too much of a fan of these attacks.

They are used in all kinds of situations, but from my observation most commonly in situations with small frame disadvantage (like after a whiff), where the opponent has a reason to run in. But you also see them in "true neutral" and various other situations. I wondered why they work so well, because I thought that mixing up various delay timings (WD down, very short dash away built into the dash in, wait->dash in) would in average score very well against these attacks.

Is there an option that beats these delayed approaches by a huge margin and therefore disincentivizes them? Are the vulnerable windows too small compared to the active frames to make challenging worth? Or are players just not practiced enough in recognizing the anti-approach attacks and therefore miss punishes?



By the way, you mentioned in the interview that you collect your ideas on some file. This has also worked very well for me so far (I do this for around 1 month now). Could be either because one focuses the attention in the right way when forced to make notes, or it helps remembering and not forgetting the things one learned. That it worked that well honestly surprised me because I have tried this theoretical approach in chess before where it didn't work too well.
Anyways, I could relate to what you said about friendlies, analysis and practice and that you can improve a lot doing 2 of those (to be fair, there are probably many top players who only improved with friendlies and practice, so I guess it also works the other way around )

About center stage, I believe there are a few things going on. One is as you said the players are very good at playing the position since the reward is great. Knowing a position and its effects on the opponent(do they get antsy for a kill when they have advantage? that would be easier to manipulate) really helps. There is one other thing to say here, and that is if you can understand how to abuse center you can control it without controlling it. This just means you can threaten so much in those positions and know them so well + know about center really well and that lures opponents into a false sense of security. Personally, I've always enjoyed playing against cornered opponents since I have more options than them and I can get edgeguards out of neutral wins too so I'm happier to play from center, but I can't discount the usefulness of other approaches.

I used utilt more when I was playing well and worked it in more generally but never got to show it. While I don't fully know what you're getting at here, zoning is a lost art in the game but it is making something of a comeback with Wes utilt/bairs and md/va marths zoning and fox players using it a little more. Those types of attacks, even done pre-emptively, put you in some lag but usually not too much and it can encourage the opponent to approach but you have enough time to move and hit them or counter them or outrange them with another move. You are right for spacie Utilt in particular, you can beat it with movement or even with a spaced Marth Fair approach(since this is Marth boards). The key is to move in such a way to bait it out but still be close enough to punish if it happens or retreat if you're wrong. It's something you learn as you keep it simple more and get more info.

 

[Blatant J]

Do you think marth is harder than other top tiers to play at the top level? I ask this since there are no top marth (solo) mains in the top 10 despite many believing the character to be top 2. Would you say that marth is forced to take more diversified approaches to MUs than other top tiers? Or are marth players just flat out lazy compared to others?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can't do any one thing to win with Marth. I think the better you know the different aspects of the game and the character the farther you go with him and get fairly rewarded, but tech skill doesn't help you a ton like it does with spacies, and juggling helps some but only if you're really good at it and ideally have combo mixups there...and so on.

Another part of it is Marth's forced simplicity doesn't work as well with the average player today since everyone wants to be Falco speed and input intensive. It can be learned though and I think I can help solve the problem to some extent at the top with guides and play when I'm back. Whether you believe that or not, I don't agree with taking everything current/recent to be the epitome of melee.

 

[WEENDANCR]

How useful do you think sh single fair into waveland is compared to simply autocanceling the fair and dashing? It certainly makes for some tricky movement and seems fairly useful for baits.

 

[Kopaka]

Hi tiara guy thread, I've missed you guys!! gonna take the time to read through all the newest posts soon. I've been reading through the entire thread starting from page 1, which has been both hilarious and really interesting and also helpful in a few ways. Hope pp and everyone else that's here is doing well <3

 

[Kyomaku]

Hi there. I messaged you on twitter but the character limit really restricted me, so I thought to post here instead, I hope that's fine. Inb4 sorry about the wall of text, hope my English is good enough to get my thoughts across, otherwise if something is unclear, please ask.

In direct response to what you said, taking notes surely helps track your improvement and prevent delusions regarding your progress, it's worth doing and I should as well. My goals? Becoming the best Marth out there. (I'm very dedicated and patient)

As I've said on twitter though, I currently suffer from health issues restricting the amount of time I can play until I'm fully recovered, thus the thought of practicing scientifically (and efficiently) really picked my interest. I'm already aware of some basic tricks regarding memorizing and learning, but I was wondering if you knew some specific practices for Melee in regards to teaching your body movement sequences more efficiently.

To be a little more specific, let's say my techskill is really inconsistent due to my issue and I want to change that. Practicing a lot and regularly is probably the best way to go about it overall, focusing on things little by little until I "master" every one of them, but how can I be more efficient there with my time/progress ratio?

Let's say I do wd's for 5min, is that enough for my body per day to have sufficient progress with wavedashing (I'm not thinking short term)? Would less or more be recommended? Small break before the next practicing segment? You recommended a total of around 1-2 hours of practicing tech and about the same time of analysis per day. How would you structure that training routine for efficient progress? (A lot is probably personalized depending on current weaknesses and goals etc I guess, but in my case, I'm talking about more broad, basic techskill like wavedashing, movement etc, since I'm inconsistent at everything. My hands are fast, but I really lack control for all the timings, not pressing too fast etc)

I've actually recently read something similar about efficient muscle training (a lot of progress with very little actual time spent, obv less progress than going to the gym a lot tho, but you really do still gain quite a lot apparently for very little effort), pretty sure there can be something similar for teaching your body movement sequences and becoming consistent at executing them, just can't seem to find my answers on google (lol) and I guess if someone knew in terms of Melee, it would probably be you.

Hope I'm not sounding lazy tho, cause I'm not lazy at all and I'd grind for hours if I could and I already did (but I paid the price and had to take a break for a few weeks to properly rest cause my health sucks).

To give a little more information, I think, I could probably practice around 30min every day without risking too much. What do you think how I should segment it? If I do breaks after every segment, I can probably extend it a little. I'm well aware how important the other areas are, but since I'm already primarily practicing mentally and soaking up info whenever I can, my greatest weakness is simply basic techskill execution atm, once I solve that I can look to restructure my training.

Again sorry for such a long post and I hope I'm not wasting your time with it. Would really love to approach my training scientifically if I could.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I was working on compiling some matchup notes for Falco, and I started writing a sort of glossary of Marth's moves and the uses they had in the matchup and stuff like that. But in doing so I noticed I was making heavy judgements about which moves were used for what and which were niche or weren't very useful at all, and I didn't like I was thinking that way when I still have so much to learn about the matchup. I don't want to stifle my creativity or receptiveness to learn new things by rooting what I think I know right now too deeply, but I'm confused how to go about my decision-making in the short term if I don't believe my choices are correct.

When doing analysis, I try to go as far down the tree of options as I can, but I always come to points where I just have to guess that "x beats y" and write it down somewhere. It's hard for me to test most situations on my own to when I don't really have anyone interested in helping me, but I understand that's my problem. I guess I'm just afraid of getting stuck or being wrong on something important and not being able to figure out what's going on because I've misinformed myself. Not easy, but any suggestions on how to overcome a fear of being wrong/getting stuck in a bad habit? Is it a matter of trusting myself?

To put the main question more concisely: how do you balance humility and reception to learning with confidence in what you already know (especially if you're not sure you know)? Idk if this would be easier or harder for you as a top player, come to think of it, but I'm sure you have experience of some sort to share lol.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, I recall you saying that zoning is a lost art when Moon lost to Axe once again. While I do have a somewhat tangible definition what zoning is, in what regards is it utilized properly? Fair in place against opponents that jump a lot? Establish ground control with d-tilt? Hope I'm not being too vague with this question.

Additionally, what are Marth's advantages of taking Sheik/Peach to FD? My local Peach/Sheik mains don't mind FD, so I'm wondering why you counterpick there to those chars.

 

[JoeyPlunk]

Yo PP. Glad to hear in your interview that you've been feeling better.

I've got a question on CC (dash) grab. I see you and other top Marth's implement this a lot, and it's something I'm definitely lacking right now. I've been trying to get this motion into "muscle memory" and I visually recognize most of the situations I can use it while watching vods, but for some reason I'm having an awkward time performing it. Do you have any tips on perfecting this either in friendlies or during solo practice? Is it just something I have to over-dramatize in my play until it becomes second nature? I know it sounds like a silly problem since CC is such a staple tool, but for whatever reason the CC - grab is just not clicking yet. It almost feels like I'm just not pressing my stick down fast enough lol.

Thanks for your help, looking forward to seeing you back at it!

 

[ridemyboat]

Yo PP. Glad to hear in your interview that you've been feeling better.

I've got a question on CC (dash) grab. I see you and other top Marth's implement this a lot, and it's something I'm definitely lacking right now. I've been trying to get this motion into "muscle memory" and I visually recognize most of the situations I can use it while watching vods, but for some reason I'm having an awkward time performing it. Do you have any tips on perfecting this either in friendlies or during solo practice? Is it just something I have to over-dramatize in my play until it becomes second nature? I know it sounds like a silly problem since CC is such a staple tool, but for whatever reason the CC - grab is just not clicking yet. It almost feels like I'm just not pressing my stick down fast enough lol.

Thanks for your help, looking forward to seeing you back at it!

Not PP, but usually cc gets messed up either by not holding down or reacting too slowly to a move that you successfully cc.

The best way to learn it in friendlies is to notice situations where your opponent chooses attacks that can be cc punished.

For example, some foxes will try to jab upsmash when you get near upsmash ko range. Sometimes, you can position your dash and wait for them to move forward and jab.

 

[ElectricBlade]

So I have sort of another vague question but I ultimately want to ask just to be sure.

At the beginning of a should you immediately add a threat to your dash dance game with Dtilt as it begins, or wait a little bit to see if the opponent is scared of your movement enough to not warrant unnecessarily swinging at them. Not sure I worded that right...

What I mean to say that is it better to force the opponent to immediately respect your movement or w to feel them out before poking?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee I was working on compiling some matchup notes for Falco, and I started writing a sort of glossary of Marth's moves and the uses they had in the matchup and stuff like that. But in doing so I noticed I was making heavy judgements about which moves were used for what and which were niche or weren't very useful at all, and I didn't like I was thinking that way when I still have so much to learn about the matchup. I don't want to stifle my creativity or receptiveness to learn new things by rooting what I think I know right now too deeply, but I'm confused how to go about my decision-making in the short term if I don't believe my choices are correct.

When doing analysis, I try to go as far down the tree of options as I can, but I always come to points where I just have to guess that "x beats y" and write it down somewhere. It's hard for me to test most situations on my own to when I don't really have anyone interested in helping me, but I understand that's my problem. I guess I'm just afraid of getting stuck or being wrong on something important and not being able to figure out what's going on because I've misinformed myself. Not easy, but any suggestions on how to overcome a fear of being wrong/getting stuck in a bad habit? Is it a matter of trusting myself?

To put the main question more concisely: how do you balance humility and reception to learning with confidence in what you already know (especially if you're not sure you know)? Idk if this would be easier or harder for you as a top player, come to think of it, but I'm sure you have experience of some sort to share lol.

Not PP, but I here's my take on it:
Making judgments based on your current game understanding is totally fine and even necessary to have something to base your in-game decisions on. You just have to be open-minded to discard your rules of thumb if contrary evidence comes up, or add exceptions to these rules. Also, I think it is a good idea to revisit your matchup guidelines after having made a leap in game understanding because sometimes it will be obvious if something is wrong or something should be added.

Dr Peepee
Thoughts on spot dodge?
The only time I would use it right now is as mixup when you are almost whiff-punished and can't dash out in time, and even then roll often feels like the superior option to avoid the grab. For Fox and Falco spot dodge can reward them with a shine so that incentivizes using it in these scenarios, but for Marth the situation after a successful spot dodge doesn't even lead to a guaranteed neutral win most of the time.

Other theoretical advantages would be that it is an option that avoid an attack while not being stuck in shield afterwards and not receiving any shieldstun. I'm unsure though if there are situations where these weigh up the big disadvantages compared to other defensive options such as shield, roll, dash away.

About neutral game:
Recently I've looked at the neutral game focusing on
- which threats one wants to use to force concessions
- at which distance one generally wants to play
- how one responds to the opponent taking space

This has led to some useful results, mainly general strategies how I want to beat certain moves and dash patterns. However, most of my results are either based on the opponent making some concession in the first place, like throwing out a move which then allows me to take space without any threat of getting hit during that whatsoever.

I've come to the conclusion that one needs to enter the opponent's threatzones sometimes, although that is a risk, to also pose threats to them. So the question is how one could do that in a way that minimizes the risk.

A first thought was that going into the outer parts of the opponent's threatzone should be less bad because they would need to fully commit to punish that. Another idea was that moving in after the opponent moved forward should also be safer because they put themselves into higher risk if they move forward for too long.

I'm not sure if that is going into the right direction in understanding neutral. Ideally I would like to look at the neutral game in a more "exact" way, like it is done with flow charts in the punish game, but breaking it down is more difficult because there are way too many scenarios to use anything similar to flowcharts. I ultimately think that it can be done, the neutral game doesn't look "random" to me and anything structured can usually be simplified.

 

[Kopaka]

I've been having this problem lately, and I think now would be a better time than ever to ask you for advice on this.

Recently I find my play has been extremely overtook by well..emotion? I try my best to come in with a clear mind but I find the more I try to do that the more I get angry when I can't keep calm while playing? This hasn't exactly been an issue in quite a while. I just find I get frustrated when I can't do what I feel like I'm able to (I'm setting bad expectations for myself) and it's just not fun sometimes.

But I desperately want to play the game with a cool head again, it's making me kinda sad because this game is amazing to me.

Soooo...the question in specific is...How would you go about controlling your emotions through preparation outside of the game as well while playing?

(Sorry if this doesn't belong here)

You're not alone in this.

For me, it used to be intense levels of anger aimed at myself. It took a very long time, but I worked at it. The anger has subsided for the most part. I've adapted a little mentality of "knowing is the counter to anger". However, I would say the emotion itself has become a sort of pressure. If I were to answer my own questions, which I tend to do a lot, the answer for me I think would be that while exciting to know that my look on the process itself is yes in-fact helping, I may be sabotaging myself by adding pressure to the process because I'm not yet accepting that the process itself takes a lot of time.

edit: though of course knowing isnt the end all be all to the anger. I could know so much more about my character and the game but I could still be getting emotional for other new reasons. ties into what pp wrote.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How useful do you think sh single fair into waveland is compared to simply autocanceling the fair and dashing? It certainly makes for some tricky movement and seems fairly useful for baits.

They're both good, but I think AC Fair is better since it doesn't lock you down as easily with sliding lag from an already slow attack.

Hi there. I messaged you on twitter but the character limit really restricted me, so I thought to post here instead, I hope that's fine. Inb4 sorry about the wall of text, hope my English is good enough to get my thoughts across, otherwise if something is unclear, please ask.

In direct response to what you said, taking notes surely helps track your improvement and prevent delusions regarding your progress, it's worth doing and I should as well. My goals? Becoming the best Marth out there. (I'm very dedicated and patient)

As I've said on twitter though, I currently suffer from health issues restricting the amount of time I can play until I'm fully recovered, thus the thought of practicing scientifically (and efficiently) really picked my interest. I'm already aware of some basic tricks regarding memorizing and learning, but I was wondering if you knew some specific practices for Melee in regards to teaching your body movement sequences more efficiently.

To be a little more specific, let's say my techskill is really inconsistent due to my issue and I want to change that. Practicing a lot and regularly is probably the best way to go about it overall, focusing on things little by little until I "master" every one of them, but how can I be more efficient there with my time/progress ratio?

Let's say I do wd's for 5min, is that enough for my body per day to have sufficient progress with wavedashing (I'm not thinking short term)? Would less or more be recommended? Small break before the next practicing segment? You recommended a total of around 1-2 hours of practicing tech and about the same time of analysis per day. How would you structure that training routine for efficient progress? (A lot is probably personalized depending on current weaknesses and goals etc I guess, but in my case, I'm talking about more broad, basic techskill like wavedashing, movement etc, since I'm inconsistent at everything. My hands are fast, but I really lack control for all the timings, not pressing too fast etc)

I've actually recently read something similar about efficient muscle training (a lot of progress with very little actual time spent, obv less progress than going to the gym a lot tho, but you really do still gain quite a lot apparently for very little effort), pretty sure there can be something similar for teaching your body movement sequences and becoming consistent at executing them, just can't seem to find my answers on google (lol) and I guess if someone knew in terms of Melee, it would probably be you.

Hope I'm not sounding lazy tho, cause I'm not lazy at all and I'd grind for hours if I could and I already did (but I paid the price and had to take a break for a few weeks to properly rest cause my health sucks).

To give a little more information, I think, I could probably practice around 30min every day without risking too much. What do you think how I should segment it? If I do breaks after every segment, I can probably extend it a little. I'm well aware how important the other areas are, but since I'm already primarily practicing mentally and soaking up info whenever I can, my greatest weakness is simply basic techskill execution atm, once I solve that I can look to restructure my training.

Again sorry for such a long post and I hope I'm not wasting your time with it. Would really love to approach my training scientifically if I could.

The biggest thing you should do, more than any routine I can give, is track your progress. Keep a notebook irl or a file on your computer you update after every session and note where you improved, got worse, or stayed the same from yesterday. You'll quickly see what's working and what's not and know you need to change.

Beyond that, keeping it simple is pretty good. Being able to WD and adjust for length, make them frame tight, going slowly and building speed, and facing different directions and going different directions...there are plenty of variables to keep you busy on that tech and most others. You can have similar criteria for WD/RC Dtilt, certain Fairs, AC Nair, edgedash, haxdash, etc.

Dr Peepee I was working on compiling some matchup notes for Falco, and I started writing a sort of glossary of Marth's moves and the uses they had in the matchup and stuff like that. But in doing so I noticed I was making heavy judgements about which moves were used for what and which were niche or weren't very useful at all, and I didn't like I was thinking that way when I still have so much to learn about the matchup. I don't want to stifle my creativity or receptiveness to learn new things by rooting what I think I know right now too deeply, but I'm confused how to go about my decision-making in the short term if I don't believe my choices are correct.

When doing analysis, I try to go as far down the tree of options as I can, but I always come to points where I just have to guess that "x beats y" and write it down somewhere. It's hard for me to test most situations on my own to when I don't really have anyone interested in helping me, but I understand that's my problem. I guess I'm just afraid of getting stuck or being wrong on something important and not being able to figure out what's going on because I've misinformed myself. Not easy, but any suggestions on how to overcome a fear of being wrong/getting stuck in a bad habit? Is it a matter of trusting myself?

To put the main question more concisely: how do you balance humility and reception to learning with confidence in what you already know (especially if you're not sure you know)? Idk if this would be easier or harder for you as a top player, come to think of it, but I'm sure you have experience of some sort to share lol.

If you come up with an idea, find a way to test it as you said. Maybe a Youtube video has the solution somewhere in it. Maybe the new 20XX lets you test out how to beat it. Maybe someone on netplay can work with you on it. If those ways or others don't work, then all you can do is leave it as a possible theory and move on. Trusting yourself to come up with ideas is good, and questioning yourself is great too. Just be sure you also have a way to remove some foginess whenever possible and if not, don't worry about it.

Hey PP, I recall you saying that zoning is a lost art when Moon lost to Axe once again. While I do have a somewhat tangible definition what zoning is, in what regards is it utilized properly? Fair in place against opponents that jump a lot? Establish ground control with d-tilt? Hope I'm not being too vague with this question.

Additionally, what are Marth's advantages of taking Sheik/Peach to FD? My local Peach/Sheik mains don't mind FD, so I'm wondering why you counterpick there to those chars.

Zoning is useful in that it takes full advantage of Marth's massive range and disjoint to control his space and manipulate his opponent/push into their space/draw them into his. Zoning is kind of difficult to explain, like movement, because it relies on understanding threatening range, what moves beat what other moves, and various matchup/stage differences. Basically it's about starting off letting them know you own the space around you with actual moves, then you use that implied range you established to shift with your movement. So if you just Fair'd in place, if you dash forward then you carry the new range of Fair in place from that new space and your opponent has to adjust accordingly.

Marth's juggles are way easier on FD and combos are easier on both characters there. It's also long so he can abuse his movement advantage.

Yo PP. Glad to hear in your interview that you've been feeling better.

I've got a question on CC (dash) grab. I see you and other top Marth's implement this a lot, and it's something I'm definitely lacking right now. I've been trying to get this motion into "muscle memory" and I visually recognize most of the situations I can use it while watching vods, but for some reason I'm having an awkward time performing it. Do you have any tips on perfecting this either in friendlies or during solo practice? Is it just something I have to over-dramatize in my play until it becomes second nature? I know it sounds like a silly problem since CC is such a staple tool, but for whatever reason the CC - grab is just not clicking yet. It almost feels like I'm just not pressing my stick down fast enough lol.

Thanks for your help, looking forward to seeing you back at it!

You're probably moving too much if I had to guess. Simplify your movement and maybe use more WD and you'll see CC comes more automatically. Be sure to watch what other players do right before they use CC and check to see if they're setting up to make that easier to do. If you're sure you have the timing right, your percent may just be too high when you try to CC/ASDI down.

Not PP, but I here's my take on it:
Making judgments based on your current game understanding is totally fine and even necessary to have something to base your in-game decisions on. You just have to be open-minded to discard your rules of thumb if contrary evidence comes up, or add exceptions to these rules. Also, I think it is a good idea to revisit your matchup guidelines after having made a leap in game understanding because sometimes it will be obvious if something is wrong or something should be added.

Dr Peepee
Thoughts on spot dodge?
The only time I would use it right now is as mixup when you are almost whiff-punished and can't dash out in time, and even then roll often feels like the superior option to avoid the grab. For Fox and Falco spot dodge can reward them with a shine so that incentivizes using it in these scenarios, but for Marth the situation after a successful spot dodge doesn't even lead to a guaranteed neutral win most of the time.

Other theoretical advantages would be that it is an option that avoid an attack while not being stuck in shield afterwards and not receiving any shieldstun. I'm unsure though if there are situations where these weigh up the big disadvantages compared to other defensive options such as shield, roll, dash away.

About neutral game:
Recently I've looked at the neutral game focusing on
- which threats one wants to use to force concessions
- at which distance one generally wants to play
- how one responds to the opponent taking space

This has led to some useful results, mainly general strategies how I want to beat certain moves and dash patterns. However, most of my results are either based on the opponent making some concession in the first place, like throwing out a move which then allows me to take space without any threat of getting hit during that whatsoever.

I've come to the conclusion that one needs to enter the opponent's threatzones sometimes, although that is a risk, to also pose threats to them. So the question is how one could do that in a way that minimizes the risk.

A first thought was that going into the outer parts of the opponent's threatzone should be less bad because they would need to fully commit to punish that. Another idea was that moving in after the opponent moved forward should also be safer because they put themselves into higher risk if they move forward for too long.

I'm not sure if that is going into the right direction in understanding neutral. Ideally I would like to look at the neutral game in a more "exact" way, like it is done with flow charts in the punish game, but breaking it down is more difficult because there are way too many scenarios to use anything similar to flowcharts. I ultimately think that it can be done, the neutral game doesn't look "random" to me and anything structured can usually be simplified.

I think spotdodge is terrible except sometimes in Marth dittos. I have never found a good use for it outside of other matchups or situations in which I just get incredibly lucky.

I think your neutral ideas are very much worth testing =)

 

[Almost Infinite]

Dear PPMD,
What do you think about pivots as far as usefulness? I'm a mid level player and I can do all the marth tech stuff except pivots (aeriels, throw>dash>pivot fsmash on floaties, grabs), as I find them exceptionally hard (even pivot grabs on spacies). Is this something I should buckle down and just keep grinding it out until I get them, or put my time into combo practice and keeping my fundamental tech good?
Love,
Your Biggest Fan