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[Cactuar]

Side b does not reset. It pops them off the ground.

 

[Roche_CL]

hi again cactuar xD
i was just wondering
whats the best stage counterpick against falcon, what neutral stage is better, and what "only counterpick allowed" stage is it too?
thx, and sry if it has been asked before, it's just that there are 49 pages :S

against most characters i would use yoshi story cause it's small and i love hitting below plats
but i've seen people like pc chris countering with falcon on yoshi story against m2k and winning xD

and against fox...whats the best choice? yoshi story sometimes is not that good because of the low% upwards kills

what do you say?

 

[BrawlLover]

oh so that's what reseting means

 

[NeighborhoodP]

omg if cactuar does not answer my questions i am going to /wrists

seriously, your advice is the only advice i care about

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Cactuar, how do you edgeguard Sheik? Would you say it's better to be aggressive and try to intercept her recovery with bairs / dair or force Sheik to come up and punish after it lands?

Hi P.

 

[MarsFool!]

At low% Side B pops them up, but no one can move fast enough to escape it. So I think thats considered a reset >_>

 

[Mew2King]

when pcs falcon beat my marth a year and a half ago, i sucked at that match, I'm much better at it now,

 

[LedZeppelin]

Cactuar,

1. In a lot of pro marth videos I see players using a back air above the stage to turn themselves around before grabbing the ledge or doing a d-air. How exactly does this work? I can never quite figure this one.

2. While chaingrabbing my friend's fox, I often run into a bit of trouble - at 25%-30%, he can routinely break out of my grabs with a shine in midair. Am I doing it too slowly to grab him? It seems that if I do it earlier the grab misses entirely, and I get shined anyways. Is there a small window during which I can get away with the grab, but any sooner I miss, and any later he shines me? Cause when I watch vids of m2k he always gets these grabs off no problem.

3. When edgeguarding vs fox/falco, I often intercept their side-b recovery with a jab, sending them right below me. At this point, what do you think is the best option of edgeguarding them? I try counter, but if properly spaced, they can get away with an up-b recovery, they sweetspot the ledge, and though I do the counterattack, it misses them entirely.

 

[MarsFool!]

Cactuar,

1. In a lot of pro marth videos I see players using a back air above the stage to turn themselves around before grabbing the ledge or doing a d-air. How exactly does this work? I can never quite figure this one.

2. While chaingrabbing my friend's fox, I often run into a bit of trouble - at 25%-30%, he can routinely break out of my grabs with a shine in midair. Am I doing it too slowly to grab him? It seems that if I do it earlier the grab misses entirely, and I get shined anyways. Is there a small window during which I can get away with the grab, but any sooner I miss, and any later he shines me? Cause when I watch vids of m2k he always gets these grabs off no problem.

3. When edgeguarding vs fox/falco, I often intercept their side-b recovery with a jab, sending them right below me. At this point, what do you think is the best option of edgeguarding them? I try counter, but if properly spaced, they can get away with an up-b recovery, they sweetspot the ledge, and though I do the counterattack, it misses them entirely.

1. Just back air high enough where you turn around. Just practice it, its very easy.
2. thats the shine out%, I recommend an up tilt, or reverse up tilt to Continue chain grabbing.
3. Im greedy so I run off and back air, or you could run off and counter fox's fire mid air, and hope they miss the tech >_>

 

[BrawlLover]

you can do that in brawl too!

 

[LedZeppelin]

1. Just back air high enough where you turn around. Just practice it, its very easy.
2. thats the shine out%, I recommend an up tilt, or reverse up tilt to Continue chain grabbing.
3. Im greedy so I run off and back air, or you could run off and counter fox's fire mid air, and hope they miss the tech >_>

1. thanks.
2. Usually at such percents the utilt leads to nothing, like maybe a tech chase... I'll give reverse a try though. thanks again
3. Ok, I was thinking of the offstage counter, but i killed myself like that quite a few times. But ill try again, it seems promising. thanks once more

 

[MarsFool!]

Also remember Falcos fire dowsnt burn so just swat him with a fair, then edgehog. And If they land in a spot where you cant swat them, charge the shield breaker. They cant really sweetspot if you space and time it right.

Check out this video Led: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BayaumUdnkc

 

[Tero.]

you can do that in brawl too!

get the **** off srsly >_>

@LedZeppelin: Im not Cactuar, but if you do pivot grabs, you can chaingrab a bit longer and they should have enough damage then to utilt -> regrab them.

 

[SHDW23]

At low% Side B pops them up, but no one can move fast enough to escape it. So I think thats considered a reset >_>

an opponent can certainly button mash fast enough (and if you're good/use to it you can time it too) to hit you with, say, marth's fair if you use dancing blade. i know because i've done it. and i'm sure most characters have an aerial fast enough to hit you before your lag from doing dancing blade ends.

 

[MarsFool!]

an opponent can certainly button mash fast enough (and if you're good/use to it you can time it too) to hit you with, say, marth's fair if you use dancing blade. i know because i've done it. and i'm sure most characters have an aerial fast enough to hit you before your lag from doing dancing blade ends.

Nope, Hitstun keeps them from mashing out, I tried it with AR, It ***** fast fallers.

 

[Cactuar]

Wow I read through this whole thread. Helped a ****load, especially your recent Samus advice. HugQ plays exactly like HugS, but I see I've been playing too impatiently. Few Q's:

How do you DI out of Sheik's dthrow at low percentages so you don't get chain grabbed? I know there's a way, I've heard it mentioned before. I believe it is this same DI that you use to make it necessary for Sheik to have nearly frame-perfect timing to follow up with a fair at higher percents. I've been trying to DI up and away and then adjusting my DI down and away when I reach the maximum height and spamming fair in the process, but I have a very low success rate. Inform me.

Do you utilize dash dropping or Isai dropping in any way, or do you just make it a point to stay off the platforms? I learned how to do both the other day but I'm struggling to find a viable use for them outside of when you're inadvertently on a platform and want to fall through and do a falling uair to protect yourself.

When you uthrow a Sheik at the percentages you mentioned earlier in the thread, 10 to low 20s, is the utilt guaranteed or can they jump out? I swear they jump out fairly often, but M2K hits KDJ with the utilt almost all the time. I suspect my timing is lacking.

I've been using ftilt a lot recently and it's amazing. Why don't more Marths use it? Oh, and why do you ftilt rather than fsmash when you chain grab space animals and they DI away?

Back to Cactuar (or Cort too, lmao): What is your strategy to get Falco past the 20-30% mark? I find fb pretty useful for it (straight up stole it from Ken), when they're coming down in the air about to land or when they're approaching me from the ground and I can pull out a pivot forward-b. Are there better things to do I should keep in mind? Or is it just a stylistic choice and since it works well for me, I should keep doing it. (I also do it against Fox but most of the time there are better things to do / opportunities to grab.)

My Marth sucks against Falcon. In fact, I suck against Falcon, period. The biggest trouble I have is approaching. It's just insanely difficult, and I often get hit by Falcon's random flying nairs and knees. Right now my strategy is to stay on the ground and wavedash around interrupting his spacing with jabs / down tilts / fairs while I look for grab openings. Are my basics right, at least?

OH ****, I FORGOT THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION:

How in the world do you DI Fox's downsmash?

I go Fox vs Sheik's these days. DIing out of the grab so that you don't get regrabbed often makes you vulnerable to getting upsmashed. I usually DI up and back.

As for platforms, when I'm on a platform and I want to drop through, I just tap down twice to drop through and fast fall. If I'm close to the edge of a platform I will normally run off and fastfall or wavedash off and fast fall. I don't know what you mean by dash dropping and Isai dropping.

I don't know if the Sheik utilt thing is guaranteed, but it works often enough that it doesn't matter. Just get good at the frames.

If you have time to pivot fb vs Falco or Fox, you have time to just pivot grab. The grab hitbox is enormous. If you watch me play vs Falco, I really just spam dash attack and wavedash out of shield until I knock them down. Once Falco is on the ground, it's really just a matter of how well you can tech chase.

I don't dtilt vs Falcon unless it's at the edge. My strategy in that matchup is to wait for the Falcon to jump, then either hit them before a move comes out, or wait until they are about to land and hit them/grab them. It's not a very complicated matchup imo, but you have to have a strong movement game to counter Falcon's simple dash dance game.

Fox's downsmash hits at a very low angle regardless of how you DI it. At the edge, you won't survive if you are at a decent percent, but you should be DIing up or up and towards the stage.

i have a question =)

what is better move for resetting, Jab or Side B ?

Jab. Side B does not reset as it's move properties lift the person up.

hi again cactuar xD
i was just wondering
whats the best stage counterpick against falcon, what neutral stage is better, and what "only counterpick allowed" stage is it too?
thx, and sry if it has been asked before, it's just that there are 49 pages :S

against most characters i would use yoshi story cause it's small and i love hitting below plats
but i've seen people like pc chris countering with falcon on yoshi story against m2k and winning xD

and against fox...whats the best choice? yoshi story sometimes is not that good because of the low% upwards kills

what do you say?

The best stage to counterpick vs Falcon players is usually Yoshi's or FoD. Never use non-neutral stages with Marth. He sucks everywhere else.

PC won there because M2K sucked at that matchup.

Cactuar, how do you edgeguard Sheik? Would you say it's better to be aggressive and try to intercept her recovery with bairs / dair or force Sheik to come up and punish after it lands?

Hi P.

I am a pretty safe player when it comes to the edge, so I usually just hang there and force the Sheik to land on the stage. If I'm below 100, I'll just use stand up, but above, I'll waveland on or nair on during the explosion so that the hitboxes cancel.

Cactuar,

1. In a lot of pro marth videos I see players using a back air above the stage to turn themselves around before grabbing the ledge or doing a d-air. How exactly does this work? I can never quite figure this one.

2. While chaingrabbing my friend's fox, I often run into a bit of trouble - at 25%-30%, he can routinely break out of my grabs with a shine in midair. Am I doing it too slowly to grab him? It seems that if I do it earlier the grab misses entirely, and I get shined anyways. Is there a small window during which I can get away with the grab, but any sooner I miss, and any later he shines me? Cause when I watch vids of m2k he always gets these grabs off no problem.

3. When edgeguarding vs fox/falco, I often intercept their side-b recovery with a jab, sending them right below me. At this point, what do you think is the best option of edgeguarding them? I try counter, but if properly spaced, they can get away with an up-b recovery, they sweetspot the ledge, and though I do the counterattack, it misses them entirely.

1. Backair turns you around midair as long as the move's animation is completed.
2. I don't chaingrab. I am very against doing it as I find it incredibly boring.
3. Run off and fair/bair/fb. Vs Falco, if you get there in time, it is better to just fb them down a little so they don't get a chance to tech the stage. Fox's can recover from a lot further, so fb to jump fair usually makes them miss the tech and die.

 

[SHDW23]

@ Mars: comps do it all the time (try it against a lvl9 comp marth), which i know isn't the best argument, and i've had humans do it too... my experience contradicts your research, which either means one of us is wrong or there are variables that we're not considering (i don't mean %).

 

[MarsFool!]

Side B makes you land in your landing animation. Marth recovers before fast fallers. Almost 25 frames before, and you dont have to be frame perfect to run forward and Jump cancel grab.

fast Fallers, Low % I dont know how to make gifs, maybe Ill make a short video.

 

[SHDW23]

scratch that, you can be right, i don't care that much.
either way it's not technically a reset.

V fair enough V

 

[MarsFool!]

what are you testing against. ie who is your opponent on AR and what are they doing?

Marh vs Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Bowser. 0-15 %. Grab>Down Throw, Side B. And Ive pressed every button Every frame, a normal human can not mash out.

yeah its technically not a reset, I stand corrected, but It can be used like one given the circumstance.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

1. thanks.
2. Usually at such percents the utilt leads to nothing, like maybe a tech chase... I'll give reverse a try though. thanks again
3. Ok, I was thinking of the offstage counter, but i killed myself like that quite a few times. But ill try again, it seems promising. thanks once more

2. I think it can lead to a regrab if the utilt tips
3. be careful not to fast fall. also you can do an offstage fair or reverse up b.

 

[LedZeppelin]

thanks for all the help guys

Just one more thing, when youre practicing shffling properly, is there a way to tell when youve got the 'ideal' timing on the L-cancel? For example while drillshining with fox you can just look at the combo meter to tell when youve got it right. Is there any sure-fire way of knowing when you've done the cancel properly with Marth? Cause when I see vids of, say, m2k he follows up his landing u-airs ridiculously fast, while I sometimes feel sluggish following up my landing aerials.

2. I think it can lead to a regrab if the utilt tips
3. be careful not to fast fall. also you can do an offstage fair or reverse up.

2. - yeah, I can sometimes get off a regrab (though other times I am too slow following up the utilt) however if they don't DI to either side, then my utilt never sends them up 'nicely', instead it hits them at a sharp angle towards the ground. I guess I can try reverse utilting, maybe that'll get a nicer launch

 

[SHDW23]

for l-canceling:
you can look at the dair and bair. they're the most obvious. you can also tell for the fair, uair, and nair, but only if you really know what to look for. try to do nair-uair-nair-bair-nair-fair-nair-dair-nair if you can do that without out getting messed up you're probably l-cancelling right. if you're not l-canceling then the different lag from the moves will probably mess you up. not perfect but it works for me.

 

[Cactuar]

2. I think it can lead to a regrab if the utilt tips
3. be careful not to fast fall. also you can do an offstage fair or reverse up.

It does lead to regrab from around 30 until you need to start tipper uairing.

You can actually run off the stage, fast fall and back air, and still recover within a pretty decent margin of error.

thanks for all the help guys

Just one more thing, when youre practicing shffling properly, is there a way to tell when youve got the 'ideal' timing on the L-cancel? For example while drillshining with fox you can just look at the combo meter to tell when youve got it right. Is there any sure-fire way of knowing when you've done the cancel properly with Marth? Cause when I see vids of, say, m2k he follows up his landing u-airs ridiculously fast, while I sometimes feel sluggish following up my landing aerials.



2. - yeah, I can sometimes get off a regrab (though other times I am too slow following up the utilt) however if they don't DI to either side, then my utilt never sends them up 'nicely', instead it hits them at a sharp angle towards the ground. I guess I can try reverse utilting, maybe that'll get a nicer launch

IMO, the best way to practice l-cancels is to do whatever aerial, then immediately dash out of the landing. If you start walking out of the landing, or don't move at all, that means you messed up. Learn the timing and it will also help you prevent yourself from getting punished by people who wait for you to land. I look really fast because my frames are always near perfect on my movement, from my actual dash-wd game, to my dash out of aerial game. I even have something built into my muscle memory just in case I mess up slightly to help me escape getting punished, but you will have to actual watch me play to try and figure that one out.

On the grab thing, just react to it tipping or not. If it does, you have a large window to get the regrab, so don't rush it. If it doesn't tip, just immediately dash in the direction they are sent and setup for your tech chase.

 

[IrArby]

Question: I had always understood that Fthrow to Fthrow was a guaranteed combo in Marth Dittos and against other semi-float chars from 0%. However in this friendly, M2K grabs KDJ after being thrown forward by KDJ. I thought this was impossible. So is this a case of KDJ grabbing to late or is M2K I guess DIing diagonally down/away and jabbing A while holding R. I just thought it was a true combo.

Watch at 1:12ish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFzaW7LLI98

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^It's not a true combo, it's just hard to react in time to get the DI (well kinda. If you were expecting a grab it's actually pretty easy)

Also, KDJ wavedashed in that instance. WDing is too slow, and that's what let M2K grab first. F-throw-Fthrow may not be a guranteed combo, but your also never going to get beaten out of it (your grab always comes out first, even though they're not technically in stun anymore)

 

[Cactuar]

Question: I had always understood that Fthrow to Fthrow was a guaranteed combo in Marth Dittos and against other semi-float chars from 0%. However in this friendly, M2K grabs KDJ after being thrown forward by KDJ. I thought this was impossible. So is this a case of KDJ grabbing to late or is M2K I guess DIing diagonally down/away and jabbing A while holding R. I just thought it was a true combo.

Watch at 1:12ish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFzaW7LLI98

You are incorrect. It is not a true combo. If you hold down and away at 0%, you will land with time to grab before the other Marth grabs. I usually just buffer roll away or buffer jump and fair.

^^It's not a true combo, it's just hard to react in time to get the DI (well kinda. If you were expecting a grab it's actually pretty easy)

Also, KDJ wavedashed in that instance. WDing is too slow, and that's what let M2K grab first. F-throw-Fthrow may not be a guranteed combo, but your also never going to get beaten out of it (your grab always comes out first, even though they're not technically in stun anymore)

Regardless of KDJ wavedashing or running and grabbing, he would have been grabbed.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You are incorrect. It is not a true combo. If you hold down and away at 0%, you will land with time to grab before the other Marth grabs. I usually just buffer roll away or buffer jump and fair.

I did not know that. That means I could get a free upthrow everytime a Marth f-throws me and tries to regrab. Thanks Cactuar. You can get free uptilt instead too right? (of course if they shield instead of try to grab you're pretty much boned).

 

[Cactuar]

If they are at low low percent, utilt isn't as effective.

If I go for the countergrab, I usually just fthrow. I don't do uthrows in Marth dittos most of the time, as I like just pushing people horizontally around the stage rather than trying to combo them or keep them vertical.

 

[Mew2King]

first off, that is a horrible marth ditto, i was bad at VLS

2nd, Cactuar you are wrong. I DI down and away and regrab because most people try to dash grab again, but they don't dash far enough and I'm grabbing. If you dash further than usual, you can easily grab before I can grab. I only do it because people don't dash far enough because no one else does that gay stuff other than me.

3rd, it's not 30 it's more like 27% or so usually (although less is easily possible, this is when I usually start, around 27/28/30%)

 

[IrArby]

Wow thanks. I didn't realize it was this complicated.

To regrab would you use Z in this instance or Hold R and mash A? I'm asking since I don't want to airdodge (With R) or do an aerial with Z so I'm confused on which is best. Even if the airdodge came out I'd wavedash backwards since I'm DIing that way but then I might get regrabbed. I don't know maybe I'm over complicating this I just don't fully understand how to execute the grab although the DI part makes perfect sense.

Lol at KDJ's like 3 failed Reverse Up b's though.

 

[BrawlLover]

why did m2k correct cactuar?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

because 3% is serious business

 

[BrawlLover]

ohh ok, what?!

 

[Cactuar]

Cool. Like I said, I just buffer something instead of trying to grab people out of the forward throw.

Besides, I like when you do that because I walk forward and you grab nothing, and then I grab you again.

 

[AustinRC]

Hey Cactuar, running at your opponent then sheilding great approach or greatest approach?

 

[BrawlLover]

that's a good approach in both games i think

 

[Sensei]

Not in SSB64. LOL, crappy shields.

 

[AustinRC]

I've been trying to just sit back and watch my opponent lately and I never knew how stupid people can be somtimes including myself they see a sheild and they try and JUST pressure... Instead of just grabbing that or they freak out for some reason. A lot of people can get away with just sitting in their sheilds for awhile or running up and sheilding unless ur up against a super pro they are mean. One grab = a dead noob... Anyway I'll be at Kansas for event 52 I'd like to get friendlies in with you Marth players. Peace for now.

Arc

 

[IrArby]

Does anyone use running shield so you slide then spot dodge to bait the grab? I've never seen it done (that I can remember) so once again I'll presume before anyone answers that its probably not good.

It sounds like something you'd do in Brawl thus I'm even more inclined to think it won't work.