Important Carefully Ask EG.PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
How do I go about juggling Samus down-b'ing on her way down? Sometimes, I find it hard to keep her in the air when she can mix up another bomb, attack, or drift in a direction. I often find myself getting hit or getting disoriented by bombs and not sure what's the proper way to go about juggling Samus.
 
Last edited:

StrawHatter

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Scotland
Here's something simple that may help. You are likely threatening grab, Fair, and Dtilt with your movement forward. Sometimes do those actions, and sometimes back off with dash, WD, or SH backward to see how they would have responded. Then you can use that information during your next dash in and beat that option/those options. You can also practice doing these basic things, so you end up using it in matches and not just doing a bunch of dashes that don't help too much. Keep it simple.
Hmm, I think I understand this part but here's a counterpoint. What about when I dash in, WD back, see my opponent doing an option but then later on in the game the same situation comes up so I try and bait and punish their previous option and they do a different one. There isn't really a guarantee they'll use the same option again if you feel me?
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
How do I go about juggling Samus down-b'ing on her way down? Sometimes, I find it hard to keep her in the air when she can mix up another bomb, attack, or drift in a direction. I often find myself getting hit or getting disoriented by bombs and not sure what's the proper way to go about juggling Samus.
When Samus bombs she's in a lot of lag, so I will sometimes bait one then lunge at her. I try to control her drift by staying between her and center, and I also stay on a platform to help prevent her from airdodging to one easily(top platform also forces her to one side generally which is nice). For her attacks, I find that sometimes Utilt can trade unless it's done a bit early so I tend to prefer Uair/Fair/Bair though I don't mind shield grabbing if I have to. I think sometimes I also swat her first bomb if she's high up so she can't bounce off of it. Other than that it's just about abusing her slow aerial mobility. Maybe there are some specifics here you are struggling with?

Hmm, I think I understand this part but here's a counterpoint. What about when I dash in, WD back, see my opponent doing an option but then later on in the game the same situation comes up so I try and bait and punish their previous option and they do a different one. There isn't really a guarantee they'll use the same option again if you feel me?
That's true, and it will definitely happen. That's the nature of fighting games. However, if you're sure they will act at the same timing, then you can cover multiple possible options. So if they are Fox and do an aggressive SH Nair, you may be able to assume they are aggressive. So then even if they don't SH Nair next time you pressure them, they may still run forward and you could Dtilt/Fair most or all of whatever they can do at this point.

But what if they mix offense and defense? Then you can cover what they could have done and otherwise not commit so deeply. What if they bait you? Then you recognize what they're looking for and do something different within your own mixup. What if they just do something you didn't expect? People have lots of habits, even the best players, so you will find trends over the course of a match and set. Studying positions helps and players helps you find these trends.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
First situation, I think Uair may have hit on your initial swing? Anyway after that, he doesn't bounce on the bomb so that should be a dash FH Fair there(or you could be turned around and get a Bair, which I find easier here). When Samus drifts in at the end I'd have either Utilted or just done a shield/DD grab on that late reaction since you do need more of a read to hit Fsmash since it's slow.

Second situation, that was honestly a super weird thing that Samus did LOL. But anyway, I don't agree with you dashing after Utilt there. A FH/DJ Uair will work just fine for what you need here. You either want to hit Samus before it comes out or after it's done or shield grab it pretty much, and once you committed to your jump it looks like that outcome wasn't really possible. Had you dashed and not jumped, you could have Fair'd or Utilted or grabbed or Fsmashed or whatever after the move finished it looks like....but I don't know why the Samus did a Dair and didn't just DJ to the top platform lol so weird.
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
When discussing about juggling Luigi and Sheik awhile ago, I kind of got the takeaway that up air isn't super good for juggling due to up air being more likely to trade and requires more brainpower to continue juggling afterwards since they're above stage most likely towards center. Why do you think upairing Samus is more okay?

So first clip, I kind of reacted late and should DD/shield grab

Second clip, I dashed back because of the potential threat of shield drop in today's meta. Not sure if Samus falls fast enough to shield drop nair the uptilt lag, but at the very least I tried making it hard with dash back, but clearly the Samus player didn't do that. Guess I could've DD grabbed or something the dair as well.

Also, you advocate to dd/shield grab Samus on her way down, which obviously doesn't have much immediate rewards and forces a long game. Why not DD fair or fsmash instead? Do you value positioning more with throws?

Why do you think Samus mains always have the tendency to expend their charge shot when they're recovering near the ledge? I got charged shot like 20 times near the ledge with the last Samus I fought because I keep thinking, no way they're gonna shoot now when they can wait for a better opportunity to use this charge shot. Then I realize I might have been watching too much Plup. Because of this line of thinking, I get stubborn and don't hold my shield and the samus gets free damage and positioning. I think I will just shield more near the ledge, but perhaps some insights why Samus players do this will help me definitely hold shield.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Ah, so Uair isn't always so ideal but if you're burning options before you hit it and you're in a good enough position to start using Bair/Fair afterward then Uair is fine. Many people get into the trap of Uair'ing a billion times and lose advantage either from being predictable or they get damage but then make it harder to get the kill as a result since you can't combo or get an easier juggle anymore since you hit them so high. The latter is what M2K does. Anyway, Uair'ing at low percent or mid percent that sets up pushing them offstage, or hits that take options/are the best you can get in a guaranteed sense are still okay to take.

The lightshield made me question whether Samus would shield drop is all, but fair enough. You can still make the dash work and either early FH/DJ or wait/fake.

Of course I'd greatly prefer Fair/Fsmash, especially since that mixup itself is so strong. But in some positions where you have little time to react, or ones in which you react late, you need to get whatever advantage you can out of it instead of forcing it. Those are certainly not my go-to's normally.

I think Samus players shoot when recovering near the edge because they can often recover out of it(and quickly with grapple) and many players are positioning to edgeguard, and charge shot extends past normal ranges and timings people are looking for. And of course some of it is that it works/works often enough so they'll keep doing it. I can relatively reliably react to the startup of the shot there too because I know they keep it in mind, so maybe it's just a simple thing to bear in mind/practice a little.
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
Last edited:

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
First one I was spaced too far and reacted too slowly, and the second I was too slow. M2K tends to do a decent job of getting these grabs and forcing rolls away vs Armada especially when he's hitting the reaction, which is typical. There are additional problems here as well. For the first, I didn't get much time to act since I weak hit Uair and also the camera made it hard to see his aerial + my own positioning together. For the second, I wasn't sure if he would airdodge to the platform and wasn't setting up any trap to beat Bair or anything else, which of course would make me slow. In this way, we can see that the setup of the juggle matters just as much as the options chosen.
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
https://youtu.be/qSr8E3HkKAU?t=16m15s

Regarding that sick sequence of dash + wavedash threats, this compelled hugs to retreat which the WD dtilt clearly beats. If Hugs were to walk forward instead and also holding down, and you know this, what would you do instead? Jump AC retreating nair or perhaps run up grab?
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Well this is assuming he didn't shield, which would have changed a lot of things. Buuuut assuming he stood in that same place that whole time for some reason, I'd either try to WD Dtilt him earlier so he can't rush me first, or I'd say WD down and Dtilt or dash in WD back then potentially WD in or walk Dtilt. Maybe some retreating Nair/Fair as you mentioned but I'm less certain of that option against Samus after watching the matchup for a bit.
 

maclo4

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
91
Has anyone downloaded the unclepunch training mod?

Ive been doing the tech chase simulator and holy cow its so so hard. Like just setting it so that fox shines or spotdodges frame 1 then trying to tech chase. I genuinely am questioning how its even humanly possible to be consistent at it. Just wondering if anyone else feels the same or if my reactions are bad or something. This also isnt the first time I've practiced tech chasing by any means but having something that shows you every time your slightly late is really revealing

Edit: What do you guys think of this, so I realized if you throw a spacie into the corner you can cover tech in place, tech away, and no tech all with WD fsmash. I tried doing it every time without reacting or changing it up and I'm pretty sure of you time it right it actually works for all 3 options. Obviously if you guess wrong you'll just be cornered but the odds are in your favor and its really hard to mess up
 
Last edited:

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
PP, I'm having trouble discerning when is a good time to jump, if at all, in the mirror when the Marth makes it ambiguous when he would standing/walk or WD dtilt. Obviously jump beats those, but if they wait a bit then they really hit me hard with fsmash or fair. Then if I don't jump at all, I just get choked and it feels kind of degenerate. How would you go about this?
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Hm well it may depend on how you want to jump. So if you wanted to defensively jump, then they may fake coming in and see that you like to jump, which they can soon exploit. If you then quit jumping and just dash back when they move in, then the solution to push into you is easy enough. Now if you wanted to offensively jump, then they could just wait a bit or use Dtilt recently to keep you encouraged to jump and this waiting would be enough. And of course there are other ways to beat Dtilt such as moving in and taking Dtilt then Dtilt'ing back(usually when attempting to Dtilt yourself), Fsmash, or at minimum running in after Dtilt to either beat the next one coming out or to attack the dash back/whatever option they try to use next. I think you can even JC grab after one Dtilt but it's a really hard thing to do so I'm not sure I'd recommend it.

Anyway, there are a lot of possible issues here I mentioned and I don't know exactly how it plays out for you. I think a good starting point at any rate is finding out how you'd like to beat Dtilt without jumping, or at the least playing the position when you know jump is being scouted. How does this sound?
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
Hmm yeah, for some reason running into dtilt then dtilting back hasn't really crossed my mind, so I'll have to try that. Although, I suspect that it would lose to standing/slight walk dtilt since that's more likely to tipper so I can't easily CC it. Does RC dtilt beat standing dtilt? Those variants of dtilts really pressure me to jump AC nair in order to beat it, which then creates those issues I highlighted.

And yeah, I'd say on average my offensive jumps gets punished more often than my defensive jumps, but both can lead to me getting hard punished. I like using jump nair in place particularly to beat WD dtilt, but that's the only time where I think jump somewhat reliably works whereas other jumps I'm committing really hard.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
239
Couldn't you also walk in and Dtilt first? Depending on spacing I figure walk Dtilt could allow you to set up take Dtilt > Dtilt back as well as intercept their WD if they decide to do that. And RC Dtilt doesn't beat standing Dtilt - if they see you run in and tipper their Dtilt you'll get sent too far away to even Dtilt back.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Hmm yeah, for some reason running into dtilt then dtilting back hasn't really crossed my mind, so I'll have to try that. Although, I suspect that it would lose to standing/slight walk dtilt since that's more likely to tipper so I can't easily CC it. Does RC dtilt beat standing dtilt? Those variants of dtilts really pressure me to jump AC nair in order to beat it, which then creates those issues I highlighted.

And yeah, I'd say on average my offensive jumps gets punished more often than my defensive jumps, but both can lead to me getting hard punished. I like using jump nair in place particularly to beat WD dtilt, but that's the only time where I think jump somewhat reliably works whereas other jumps I'm committing really hard.
As Zorcey said, you can also experiment with walking Dtilt some and this type of mixup can help you get your jump back as well as help you push in. If you WD in when close enough it's unlikely they'd get a tipper unless they Dtilt'ed in advance, which can obviously be used to your advantage. RC/WD Dtilt can beat standing Dtilt but you'd need to come in before or after theirs comes out usually. Something I notice is that if I whiff a moving forward Dtilt I can Dtilt again and I've slid a little bit farther forward from where I was when the first came out, which can be useful vs those who are trying to delicately space around the tool.

Yeah offensive jumps are easily the riskiest. Maybe you can try jumping in place and drifting in with Fair/Nair more often as a hybrid solution and this can help you control space if you find that they are ready for your approach.
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2017
Messages
48
Hey, I've been struggling with getting faired out of my jump vs Sheik. I know Marth's fair SHOULD beat Sheik's in theory, but i find that even when I SH to call out Sheik's jump, I get faired way too often air to air. Is there any likely culprit for this?
 

Doof_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 3, 2016
Messages
18
Location
East Moline, Illinois
Hey, I've been struggling with getting faired out of my jump vs Sheik. I know Marth's fair SHOULD beat Sheik's in theory, but i find that even when I SH to call out Sheik's jump, I get faired way too often air to air. Is there any likely culprit for this?
The main thing that caused me to lose a fair fight to sheik is when I do a run, jump forward fair. The only reason you should ever lose when you both fair at the same time is if you're mis-spaced. If you're going to SH to beat sheik's jump you can't really brute force it without a call out on their jump with a rising fair (with proper spacing), which is risky because if sheik does anything else that isn't going straight at you she can open you up because you just wiffed a rising fair right in her face.

One solution you could do is to wait for/pressure sheik to jump and come down on top of them with a falling fair. The benefit to doing this is the fact you're in less total lag and for sheik to punish it they have to either call out your next option after the fair or call out the exact timing and spacing of the fair with boost grab/dash attack.

Another solution that is low risk could be to call out their landing with a dtilt. If you can space it properly you can tack on free damage while being able to play a mixup after landing it if you chose to.
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
PP, how do you maintain composure and focus when there's a little environmental annoyance during a serious set?

I find that if there's loud music going on or whatever, I'm fine with that because it's a constant thing that I get used to. However when I hear other people randomly talking within ear distance or other non-constant sound, it gets kind of distracting and as a result I'm not 100% focused on my match. I tried looking at my character's feet in hopes to get my focus back, but there's always that annoyance and slight loss in focus, and I'm not sure what's the proper solution for this other than investing in headphones.

I'm interested how you dealt with Hugs at Evo 2015 where you just looked calm, when surely those people being there and cheering for Hugs must've been distracting to some degree.
 
Last edited:

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
239
https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=55s In this clip you cover Falco DJ out of Dthrow with runoff Rising Dair. I'm wondering is if this is because you're trying to cover a potential sweetspot? I've read from Kadano that Falco has either a 1 or 4 frame window to DJ sweetspot, depending on whether it's instant or out of Shinestall, and he said in the same post that Marth basically can't do anything about it, but this could be an option he didn't consider? I figure if it covers DJ sweetspot then it's an amazing option, but if it doesn't you give up SideB coverage for no reason when you could Dtilt and react if they sweetspot.

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m41s In this Marth ditto I notice you use approaching SH Nair several times. In this first instance I assume it's to cover dash back > dash in by m2k, and it can combo into Utilt/Fsmash at the percent he's at. But normally you advise against this option (and indeed he gets you in the corner for it). You soon use another SH Nair in to escape the corner (https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m46s). My question for these is 1) am I accurate about what I've hypothesized for your thought process? And 2) why were these SH Nairs exceptions to your normal advice? My guess is because they were done from an in-fighting position, not at TR, so even if m2k didn't dash back you'd still cross him up. Is this correct, or am I off?

I'm interested how you dealt with Hugs at Evo 2015 where you just looked calm, when surely those people being there and cheering for Hugs must've been distracting to some degree.
Lol I get irritated just watching that set. PP's tolerance for that kind of distraction is really admirable. I wonder whether it's more difficult to deal with a large crowd cheering loudly "out there" versus a small one right in your face. I feel like it'd be the smaller (for myself) but I'm not sure. I think simulating both separately for training would be useful though.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Hey PP!

Is this intentional; where you space outside of jab and grab it? Pros/cons on doing this? https://youtu.be/fAzrOnPvstU?t=275

Also, I'm looking for book tips, in the style of Inner Game and Art of Learning. Or any book on how to get into your kind of meditation.
It's not something to consistently do because jab can hit your arm instead, and it can be hard to adjust based on where he techs and DI percent etc. Still if you can do it then it's okay, but I think going for a hit or earlier grab is just better.

I learned meditation from many places such as The Art of Learning, but you may also find "Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself" and "Mindfulness in Plain English" as some different useful sources.

PP, how do you maintain composure and focus when there's a little environmental annoyance during a serious set?

I find that if there's loud music going on or whatever, I'm fine with that because it's a constant thing that I get used to. However when I hear other people randomly talking within ear distance or other non-constant sound, it gets kind of distracting and as a result I'm not 100% focused on my match. I tried looking at my character's feet in hopes to get my focus back, but there's always that annoyance and slight loss in focus, and I'm not sure what's the proper solution for this other than investing in headphones.

I'm interested how you dealt with Hugs at Evo 2015 where you just looked calm, when surely those people being there and cheering for Hugs must've been distracting to some degree.
In my own experience, I never struggled with outside sounds UNLESS my mind was not tuned in to the game. I just wanted to play so badly that I could always go deep, and later my meditations helped build my concentration to the point where I could always get back into the game. Additionally, I also find that people that cheer like they did for Hugs just want to see him win and support him, so there's no reason to be mad at them. Same for those talking. Once I truly accepted their perspectives, they didn't bother me anymore.

I don't think it's always so easy for everyone though. I'm not sure how much you have tried my solutions, but maybe you can try other solutions as well like practicing/playing friendlies while playing crowd noises or audio of people/commentators talking. I'm trying to think of other ideas but can't at the moment, though I still hope this can be helpful.

I guess about the Hugs set in particular: I knew they were loud and again took their perspectives and knew they were just supportive of their friend which I admired. Had they been rude to me I may have felt differently, and of course I'd have rather they gave me more space, but ultimately my job as a competitor is to focus on the game so I couldn't be picky.

https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=55s In this clip you cover Falco DJ out of Dthrow with runoff Rising Dair. I'm wondering is if this is because you're trying to cover a potential sweetspot? I've read from Kadano that Falco has either a 1 or 4 frame window to DJ sweetspot, depending on whether it's instant or out of Shinestall, and he said in the same post that Marth basically can't do anything about it, but this could be an option he didn't consider? I figure if it covers DJ sweetspot then it's an amazing option, but if it doesn't you give up SideB coverage for no reason when you could Dtilt and react if they sweetspot.

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m41s In this Marth ditto I notice you use approaching SH Nair several times. In this first instance I assume it's to cover dash back > dash in by m2k, and it can combo into Utilt/Fsmash at the percent he's at. But normally you advise against this option (and indeed he gets you in the corner for it). You soon use another SH Nair in to escape the corner (https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m46s). My question for these is 1) am I accurate about what I've hypothesized for your thought process? And 2) why were these SH Nairs exceptions to your normal advice? My guess is because they were done from an in-fighting position, not at TR, so even if m2k didn't dash back you'd still cross him up. Is this correct, or am I off?



Lol I get irritated just watching that set. PP's tolerance for that kind of distraction is really admirable. I wonder whether it's more difficult to deal with a large crowd cheering loudly "out there" versus a small one right in your face. I feel like it'd be the smaller (for myself) but I'm not sure. I think simulating both separately for training would be useful though.
So for that first Dthrow, he DI'd down and/or away which means he can't get back onstage with DJ Dair so you can go for the runoff much more reliably. You can still do it if he holds in but it's riskier obviously. I am mostly trying to cover a sweetspot at that point btw, and on good reactions I can react to jump back as well.

Yeah I assumed he'd want to retreat after whiffing Dtilt and then I could hit him so he couldn't grab the edge and mess him up, but he went in thinking I might dash back or just to cover if I did move back and go under Nair if he analyzed that.

Nair is more okay in the ditto since you really have no choice but to jump sometimes, but it's still less preferable of an option due to risk. Both times I used it though I did use it when it would be harder to react to it as you said and that does mean they're not only less likely to counter but less likely to DI well which means I could get a better punish if I can connect. I don't want to cross him up I either want to hit his shield or hit him since I don't want to be cornered, so it's not an ideal choice to me when people are conditioned to dash in but I was wrong there. However when I was the one cornered then I clearly didn't mind it so much lol.

The crowd sizes have their own challenges as you mention. Big ones are more noise, and small ones you can hear more specifics. I'm not sure one is particularly worse than the other, but I do prefer large ones because it's more exciting when they yell even if not for me lol =p
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
hmmm, I find that I'm generally very focused when I'm about to enter a tournament match where I want to give it my all. Again as I said, constant noises are not really an issue for me, but rather irregular sounds that disrupts my focus. I can't help but pay attention to a random, erratic conversation going on game 2 of my match, so that takes away focus. This actually has been an issue throughout my playing time, but I always assumed this would go away but it hasn't. I have tried doing the SFAT practice where I listen to crowd noises, and I suspect it will help whenever I get to the big stage, but it's a constant thing that I eventually get used to. It's the erratic, random noises that gets me.

I think it doesn't help that I'm generally the type of person that gets distracted easily too.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Hm well thinking about it again quickly, is there any way you can train with people watching and talking, solo or friendlies? Time spent dealing with the issue in a lower pressure environment might be good enough to simulate tournament here.

If that's not possible, is there a way to set up supposedly random sounds in a Youtube video or via some app, etc that can help provide distractions?
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
Hmm, actually there are ways I could practice this, but I've always not take those sessions seriously because they're friendlies. Atm I don't have access to constant friendlies, but I will keep this in mind and try to be serious for a while. I suppose what I can do right now is open up a random twitch tournament and play while I hear commentators and random noises. I'll see how that works out.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
239
So for that first Dthrow, he DI'd down and/or away which means he can't get back onstage with DJ Dair so you can go for the runoff much more reliably. You can still do it if he holds in but it's riskier obviously. I am mostly trying to cover a sweetspot at that point btw, and on good reactions I can react to jump back as well.

Yeah I assumed he'd want to retreat after whiffing Dtilt and then I could hit him so he couldn't grab the edge and mess him up, but he went in thinking I might dash back or just to cover if I did move back and go under Nair if he analyzed that.

Nair is more okay in the ditto since you really have no choice but to jump sometimes, but it's still less preferable of an option due to risk. Both times I used it though I did use it when it would be harder to react to it as you said and that does mean they're not only less likely to counter but less likely to DI well which means I could get a better punish if I can connect. I don't want to cross him up I either want to hit his shield or hit him since I don't want to be cornered, so it's not an ideal choice to me when people are conditioned to dash in but I was wrong there. However when I was the one cornered then I clearly didn't mind it so much lol.

The crowd sizes have their own challenges as you mention. Big ones are more noise, and small ones you can hear more specifics. I'm not sure one is particularly worse than the other, but I do prefer large ones because it's more exciting when they yell even if not for me lol =p
So you have time to react to the DI before picking whether to runoff or not? And they can only get DJ Dair/Airdodge onto stage with DI in? Does this mean on that down and/or away DI, with the good reactions you mentioned, you can react to DJ sweetspot with Dair or DJ back > SideB with DJ Fair? Mentally I think I'm committing to either the Dair or the DJ Fair in this position, because I hadn't thought I could react from the runoff.

M2k was conditioned to dash in because the previous action you took was Dtilt, and it's common for Marth to dash back out of it (especially early in a game), correct? Would you have time to dash back anyway and pivot aerial as an answer to this? Or is Marth WD Dtilt too quick for that? Even if you can pivot aerial, is punishing his dash in with double Dtilt preferable? (It seems it would be in this situation, because being hit by a second Dtilt would corner him.)

Lol I feel the same way about the bigger crowd size. In theory at least - still haven't had that experience yet. But it's coming eventually.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
You often can react to the DI in my opinion, since if they go away then a very slight wait won't make you too slow, and you'd likely need to wait a little before acting if they DI'd in anyway. But of course you can run off regardless if you're fairly confident they won't immediate DJ Dair. As for whether they can make it onstage with DJ plus option, it can depend on exactly how far they DI and their percent and how close to the edge you are when you throw. Normally though, I don't think they can make it back with DJ Dair. Airdodge sometimes, which admittedly can be an issue(though not if you Dair early enough). And yes you could DJ Fair them DJ'ing away to side B, though you can also just Dtilt their attempt to DJ to the edge since they can't vary how close they are to it like with DI in, and then you can react to them DJ'ing away if you want. There are different ways to handle this.

M2K also just likes to run in after Dtilt since backing up is also how you get Dtilt'ed and even if he's wrong and gets hit he can hold down. Plus some conditioning from me over time. But basically yes what you said.
It does depend on when everyone reacts and starts their actions to an extent for the pivot aerial. It may also depend slightly on how far back you want to dash before pivoting. That said, Dtilt then WD Dtilt shouldn't ever really connect at such a low percent and the opponent should be able to at least jump backward if not pivot aerial. I'm not entirely sure if I read this section of your question right so if you meant what can I do after I land Dtilt let me know.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
239
Hm, alright. So if I understand this correctly, when you runoff, you're trading off safety from immediate DJ Dair for the ability to cover DJ sweetspot? Since you can cover non-sweetspot DJ to ledge and DJ back SideB, and still react to DJ airdodge from onstage. Synthesized into a more general rule, runoff isn't worth the risk unless the Falco (or perhaps FFers in general) can sweetspot DJ? Is this accurate, or is there more to be said I haven't considered?

Sorry, by "double Dtilt" I meant Dtilt > standing Dtilt, but looking at the situation again (https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m42s) I see you had to dash back as you did after WD Dtilt to avoid getting Dtilted back by m2k, so that wouldn't have even been an option if you wanted to avoid trading, I think.

Reappropriating the question to a second later at 5:43, assuming you knew m2k would do that dash in, would a WD back Dtilt out of your DD be quick enough to interrupt his? Or would dash back > pivot aerial be a better option? Both involve backing up/aren't entirely clear they'll work, but is that just the nature of the position? I'm wondering what else you could do after starting that DD right outside his standing Dtilt range other than SH Nair in, if say, you knew at the time m2k would dash in instead of back.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
You can also beat DJ airdodge with the Dair. You can also cover relevant DJ timings that don't use shine stall iirc, and if they do stall you can Fair/Dtilt the DJs then usually I believe. But it's great to use this option at percents where spacies could tech the Dtilt since you can just bypass this then(though if they're close to the edge this isn't necessarily true but it does change their tech timing which can be useful as well as mixed with runoff Fair in that case, which is actually more likely to beat DJ Dair).

Oh, well if you tipper Dtilt then I don't think you will get Dtilted back(most characters slide too far when getting hit by it), so you should be able to do that in place twice and be fine. You'd likely want to stagger it since most people won't take Dtilt and move immediately in afterward though. If you're concerned you can always test it.

I could WD back Dtilt to beat his dash but I'd need to pre-empt it I wouldn't be able to react most likely. Dash back pivot aerial would play on his timing for waiting then coming in after Dtilt by confirming the dash back after Dtilt so it's a much more feasible play there.
I could have JC grabbed if I thought he'd just sit there or grab him running in lol. I guess I could retreating Fair as well, and Nair on prediction I guess. If I didn't think he'd shield(which is uncommon in the ditto) then I could Fsmash.
 

ConeZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
184
Location
Georgia
Hey, so for one reason or another I have been away from the smash for a while, but I have been motivated to start playing again, but due to my circumstances atm, it is hard for me to practice consistently with other people, and I do not have a method of practicing with something like 20xx (I just have a regular gamecube/ copy of melee).

I am trying to develop a practice routine, but I am struggling figuring out how much to try and implement and how soon. Like, I want to focus mostly on getting the basics to feels natural again like just getting my dash dance ranges, wave dashing/ landing, shfls, and l-canceling in general. I know there are things like shield dropping, edge cancels, ledge stuff, etc etc, I am just not sure what exactly I should be prioritizing on cleaning up and in what order bc I know in many things it is easier to learn some skill if you have learned something else first (i.e. walking to running as a basic principle).

I don't necessarily expect a perfect answer to all this because I realize it is a kind of subjective question, but I figured I'd go somewhere and ask my questions just so I can get any feedback or maybe catch something I missed.

...Also, good luck getting better PP!
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
239
How exactly does Spacies SDIing down/behind on Utilt, and up and/or away on Uair, affect the CG? (If there are other relevant SDI directions on those moves or on Fair or something I’d like to know about those too.) All I’ve ever heard was “it makes followups harder,” but I don’t know what options good SDI takes away from Marth, and what options it encourages.
The first part of the CG I’m referring to more specifically is the 30ish percent Utilt before regrab, and whether SDI can escape the regrab, and if so, require ending the CG with Fsmash or something, or if Marth can extend it using an aerial.
The second specific part is when Marth may opt to transition to Uair juggles. What would up and/or away SDI do for spacies here? Would it just screw with Marth’s timing, or actually deplete his frame leniency/deny him a true followup?
Is there a general rule for spacies in what they’re trying to accomplish with SDI? Like, avoiding regrab specifically or something?

Also do you know any specifics for how the slope on YS can affect edgeguarding spacies? Are there any adjustments you have to make to your normal positioning to account for it?
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Hey, so for one reason or another I have been away from the smash for a while, but I have been motivated to start playing again, but due to my circumstances atm, it is hard for me to practice consistently with other people, and I do not have a method of practicing with something like 20xx (I just have a regular gamecube/ copy of melee).

I am trying to develop a practice routine, but I am struggling figuring out how much to try and implement and how soon. Like, I want to focus mostly on getting the basics to feels natural again like just getting my dash dance ranges, wave dashing/ landing, shfls, and l-canceling in general. I know there are things like shield dropping, edge cancels, ledge stuff, etc etc, I am just not sure what exactly I should be prioritizing on cleaning up and in what order bc I know in many things it is easier to learn some skill if you have learned something else first (i.e. walking to running as a basic principle).

I don't necessarily expect a perfect answer to all this because I realize it is a kind of subjective question, but I figured I'd go somewhere and ask my questions just so I can get any feedback or maybe catch something I missed.

...Also, good luck getting better PP!
Thank you!

Definitely start with the basics I think you have the right idea. Use the nametag glitch(look it up if you're unaware) so you can go into stages solo. Practice wavedashes all the way across the stage, then back. Then facing other directions. Then mixing directions. That helps you build your WDs back up. Same type of thing for SHFFLs where you do it in place, then forward or drift forward and backward, etc etc. RC/WD Dtilt. Edgedash can be useful too. Really just starting anywhere is good, but the most basic stuff like this is great for you.
How exactly does Spacies SDIing down/behind on Utilt, and up and/or away on Uair, affect the CG? (If there are other relevant SDI directions on those moves or on Fair or something I’d like to know about those too.) All I’ve ever heard was “it makes followups harder,” but I don’t know what options good SDI takes away from Marth, and what options it encourages.
The first part of the CG I’m referring to more specifically is the 30ish percent Utilt before regrab, and whether SDI can escape the regrab, and if so, require ending the CG with Fsmash or something, or if Marth can extend it using an aerial.
The second specific part is when Marth may opt to transition to Uair juggles. What would up and/or away SDI do for spacies here? Would it just screw with Marth’s timing, or actually deplete his frame leniency/deny him a true followup?
Is there a general rule for spacies in what they’re trying to accomplish with SDI? Like, avoiding regrab specifically or something?

Also do you know any specifics for how the slope on YS can affect edgeguarding spacies? Are there any adjustments you have to make to your normal positioning to account for it?
Okay so I don't have the perfect fully fleshed out answer to this and I don't think anyone does, but I know some things partly at least.

For the ~30% Utilt, if you hit the front part they can absolutely teleport to a top platform which is crazy. Armada did it to me at Summit and I think he is one of the few that use it. Back hit of Utilt is more consistent but they can go up on that too I guess. With back hit though I think you can transition to Fair/Uair but with front hit you're usually platform tech chasing or having to get a DJ if it's on FD or something I guess. If I have to front hit I'd rather just JC grab if they full DI in front and if it's just slightly in front then I want to experiment with various Uairs that either combo or take their jump, as well as Nair in different spots. Also sometimes I could just let them fall and tech chase or grab as they come into me or take their jump if they go high, but that's obviously more likely to be shined. Still if they're mashing up then this isn't likely(in the meta sense for now anyway). That's all I have for now, and some of that stuff would be more or less useful in a given situation.

For Uair, up is still annoying since they will get to a point where they can get to a top platform/DJ earlier than you'd like. If you weak hit Uair though, Cactus showed me you can actually SDI down and away and get out which I thought was impossible. I think to combat this you have to do a particular FF tipper Uair but I don't fully remember it all since it's been years now. Anyway I don't think anyone does this right now so maybe just focus on people going up. You can mix Fair in here of course because it leads to Ken Combo, and then if they start holding out you can Fsmash. Yay Marth

So the YS slope means you can hit them trying to sweetspot with up-B and more importantly their DJ. It also means you're more likely to miss if they side B into you since you're angled downward. I think hitting up-B has a similar problem. It's pretty straightforward to adjust for as you need to prime for Fair or walking a little more with slope, but once you get that down it's pretty great. Also Fsmash gets changed a lot as it doesn't go as far horizontally but goes way below the edge which is cool.
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
Regarding the mixup between puff's late approaching bair vs fadeback bair, I'm having a hard time visualizing why dashes would elicit a different response for what kind of bair puff uses. I'm thinking nair in place could beat both options, but it can get hard called out with fsmash and potential workarounds with puff's aerial drift.

https://youtu.be/f0WcYLKdU18?t=9m8s - I suppose here, I misjudged my dash length to punish the fade back bair. I think I tried to grab but got baired in the face. In this scenario, is the ideal whiff punish going for fair or perhaps DA? Upon replaying this scenario in 20xx, getting fair is a bit of a tight window but DA I can land pretty consistently.

Perhaps from the clip, a potential forward dash is why the puff decided to do fade back bair, in which back dash would ideally beat. Not sure where late bair fits into this if I'm even thinking about the right mixup, so please do inform me more about this.

Also quick juggle questions, what should I have done instead? https://youtu.be/f0WcYLKdU18?t=9m24s Should I not full hop there?

You say to count puff's jumps as they come down, but what if they heil merry come down and attack? https://youtu.be/f0WcYLKdU18?t=9m27s
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
239
That SDI stuff is pretty crazy. With some quick testing on full DI away at 30% I was able to get SH Tipper Fair > regrab on SDI up, so maybe that's worth adding to the list of solutions. You can also do SH Tipper Fair > falling Tipper Uair > DA > regrab if they SDI the Fair up and the Uair away, which looks pretty sick lol. (Port 1 Marth, Port 2 Fox, btw.)

So if I'm getting this right, the basics are SH Fair onstage becomes stronger for edgeguarding on YS because you can hit UpB/DJ sweetspots with it? Same with Fsmash/Dtilt because they go below stage more (but you need to walk out further than normal because of it)?

Question I want to add in here: I'm trying to work on my understanding of approaching and the different kinds of approaches. I've concluded there are three: direct approaches, feints, and compound approaches, but the theory behind compound approaches is difficult. I consider it to be a combination of feints and direct approaches woven into an even deeper pattern than either alone, but that's all I have atm. I thought your definition would make a great guiding point. (Also, if you wouldn't mind critiquing my understanding of direct approaches and feints, I worked out the theory for myself the other day here https://docs.google.com/document/d/11JZKKNUwr1QjzI2zG8SaXzadhqkkOzGGAnZoVdPUIMo/edit?usp=sharing - I figure knowing I got the precursors right is pretty important before I try to build on them lol.)
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
Moderator
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
26,883
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Regarding the mixup between puff's late approaching bair vs fadeback bair, I'm having a hard time visualizing why dashes would elicit a different response for what kind of bair puff uses. I'm thinking nair in place could beat both options, but it can get hard called out with fsmash and potential workarounds with puff's aerial drift.

https://youtu.be/f0WcYLKdU18?t=9m8s - I suppose here, I misjudged my dash length to punish the fade back bair. I think I tried to grab but got baired in the face. In this scenario, is the ideal whiff punish going for fair or perhaps DA? Upon replaying this scenario in 20xx, getting fair is a bit of a tight window but DA I can land pretty consistently.

Perhaps from the clip, a potential forward dash is why the puff decided to do fade back bair, in which back dash would ideally beat. Not sure where late bair fits into this if I'm even thinking about the right mixup, so please do inform me more about this.

Also quick juggle questions, what should I have done instead? https://youtu.be/f0WcYLKdU18?t=9m24s Should I not full hop there?

You say to count puff's jumps as they come down, but what if they heil merry come down and attack? https://youtu.be/f0WcYLKdU18?t=9m27s
Fadeback Bair can be used if she wants to put a move out before you get into position to Nair. She can use different Bairs depending on your different positions once she commits, which would be based on dashes. So if you're closer, she'd want to fade away, farther she may want to come in(but not too far so it's an easy reaction perhaps, though it can depend on if you are playing more protracted positions, etc). Then she may also respond to you moving just as she jumps, and if she started trying to go for deeper Bair but second guesses herself she could then switch to DJ retreating Bair just before she lands and other such plays. Also about the Fsmash, while you're right I don't find Puffs that willing to do it even if you spam it a bit at them. At least, not if you're able to punish her Fsmash lag decently with grab or tipper or some other strong punish. Might depend on the Puff though since some do go for big reads like that sometimes and you can just do simple dash in baits on them.

I believe that Bair you can pivot grab based on how Puff drifted but I'm not totally sure. Anyway, you dashed super far away so yeah you won't be able to get much off of it then. I think you can at least dash back a bit then come in with Nair which can take out her landing or her DJ Bair depending on how you do it, and I think if you're super fast(like with the Fair you mentioned) you can hit her out of this first Bair. Haven't tested all of this myself but I need to. If you can land DA though that's pretty good since she can't ASDI down that for too long and it combos well on hit at important percents.

Puff saw you land with Fair and probably wanted to make sure you wouldn't try to keep swinging/pushing in after that so she put out her own move quickly. Puffs that know about Marth's Fair lag might wait a second to confirm Marth doesn't attack on his landing then go deep with a Bair to play on him having to play around that lag with dash back or shield for example.

If you're going to FH there, then be sure to either FF back down quickly or to DJ push into her. It looks like you miiiight have been able to DJ Fair her at a specific point, but usually just FF'ing once they move to avoid your DJ is good. If they see you FF back down and use another jump to try and go over you then that is just great. It might be easier to just say experiment with SH/instant DJ some as well since I've noticed this FH you do does seem to be giving you problems.


That last situation is a bit odd since you clearly show you knew you needed to cover Puff going to the ground so you know part of my answer already. However, this side B you did pretty much didn't cover any common Puff options in this position and wouldn't hit her directly so it just left you open. Dashing into rising Fair may have worked, as Fsmash may have along with Dtilt if she tried to fade back and land, but it's a bit difficult to say since you're bareeeely getting into position to force her jump while staying safe and this might be one of the positions you have to let go and play the next one/hope she backs off from it too and jumps(best) or goes to edge(worst) while covering her coming in. I'd need to look at the position if you kept running forward and didn't stop to side B to know more for sure.

That SDI stuff is pretty crazy. With some quick testing on full DI away at 30% I was able to get SH Tipper Fair > regrab on SDI up, so maybe that's worth adding to the list of solutions. You can also do SH Tipper Fair > falling Tipper Uair > DA > regrab if they SDI the Fair up and the Uair away, which looks pretty sick lol. (Port 1 Marth, Port 2 Fox, btw.)

So if I'm getting this right, the basics are SH Fair onstage becomes stronger for edgeguarding on YS because you can hit UpB/DJ sweetspots with it? Same with Fsmash/Dtilt because they go below stage more (but you need to walk out further than normal because of it)?

Question I want to add in here: I'm trying to work on my understanding of approaching and the different kinds of approaches. I've concluded there are three: direct approaches, feints, and compound approaches, but the theory behind compound approaches is difficult. I consider it to be a combination of feints and direct approaches woven into an even deeper pattern than either alone, but that's all I have atm. I thought your definition would make a great guiding point. (Also, if you wouldn't mind critiquing my understanding of direct approaches and feints, I worked out the theory for myself the other day here https://docs.google.com/document/d/11JZKKNUwr1QjzI2zG8SaXzadhqkkOzGGAnZoVdPUIMo/edit?usp=sharing - I figure knowing I got the precursors right is pretty important before I try to build on them lol.)
Yeah on full DI away you can just JC regrab so I'm not super worried about it but yeah the Fair thing is really good to know. The slight DI is the worst to me.

Fair hits high which your jab and Fsmash etc may miss due to the slope as well. And yes for the other part.

That last thing seems alright. It mostly reminds me of intention theory, but if this is easy for you to understand then that'll probably work alright.
 

Kotastic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
331
Location
California
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
Once again, I think I'm facing new mentality hurdles in a different form that I'm not exactly sure how to properly overcome.

The past month is by far the biggest slump I've gone through. I'm trying various methods as to how to make my practice sessions more productive without friendlies, but so far it's not showing results. Definitely compared to months prior, this is a pretty big downward trend so far and it's pretty demoralizing and disappointing for myself. Yet despite such results...I know deep within me I can still do it. I've demonstrated my prowess before. But I'm so impatient. I've gotten remarks on car rides home that I'm too emotional when I mull over my losses and my prospects of the future. I don't necessarily self-deprecate myself anymore, as that chapter in my life is gone. But I still think about it nonetheless, just thinking what if, replaying how hurtful the loss was, and that I want to get better NOW. I just want to get better so badly. And I'm not sure if my current way of thinking is necessarily productive/healthy or if I should adhere my friend's advice to just perhaps take a short break, accept for what has happened and trust the process, and move on.

This sort of segways to Evo, as that will be my first supermajor and out of region tournament. I've already invested a lot of money to just even get there and all, excluding potential other spendings. It's kind of surreal to me honestly that this is happening in less than two weeks...but sooner or later I will experience everything a supermajor will have to offer. Yet at the moment, I don't feel like I'm at a good performing condition to truly make the most out of Evo. But perhaps that's irrelevant with all the various factors in plays. How can I make the most out of an opportunity like this?
 

quixotic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
83
Do you have any general rules on when to whiff punish with sh rising fair vs whiff punishing with jc grab?

It seems that you use fair when the opponent is in the air so they can't asdi down, but I've also seen you use fair to punish grounded moves and occasionally the landing lag of aerials.
 
Top