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Kotastic

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How do I go about juggling Samus down-b'ing on her way down? Sometimes, I find it hard to keep her in the air when she can mix up another bomb, attack, or drift in a direction. I often find myself getting hit or getting disoriented by bombs and not sure what's the proper way to go about juggling Samus.
 
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StrawHatter

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Here's something simple that may help. You are likely threatening grab, Fair, and Dtilt with your movement forward. Sometimes do those actions, and sometimes back off with dash, WD, or SH backward to see how they would have responded. Then you can use that information during your next dash in and beat that option/those options. You can also practice doing these basic things, so you end up using it in matches and not just doing a bunch of dashes that don't help too much. Keep it simple.
Hmm, I think I understand this part but here's a counterpoint. What about when I dash in, WD back, see my opponent doing an option but then later on in the game the same situation comes up so I try and bait and punish their previous option and they do a different one. There isn't really a guarantee they'll use the same option again if you feel me?
 

Dr Peepee

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How do I go about juggling Samus down-b'ing on her way down? Sometimes, I find it hard to keep her in the air when she can mix up another bomb, attack, or drift in a direction. I often find myself getting hit or getting disoriented by bombs and not sure what's the proper way to go about juggling Samus.
When Samus bombs she's in a lot of lag, so I will sometimes bait one then lunge at her. I try to control her drift by staying between her and center, and I also stay on a platform to help prevent her from airdodging to one easily(top platform also forces her to one side generally which is nice). For her attacks, I find that sometimes Utilt can trade unless it's done a bit early so I tend to prefer Uair/Fair/Bair though I don't mind shield grabbing if I have to. I think sometimes I also swat her first bomb if she's high up so she can't bounce off of it. Other than that it's just about abusing her slow aerial mobility. Maybe there are some specifics here you are struggling with?

Hmm, I think I understand this part but here's a counterpoint. What about when I dash in, WD back, see my opponent doing an option but then later on in the game the same situation comes up so I try and bait and punish their previous option and they do a different one. There isn't really a guarantee they'll use the same option again if you feel me?
That's true, and it will definitely happen. That's the nature of fighting games. However, if you're sure they will act at the same timing, then you can cover multiple possible options. So if they are Fox and do an aggressive SH Nair, you may be able to assume they are aggressive. So then even if they don't SH Nair next time you pressure them, they may still run forward and you could Dtilt/Fair most or all of whatever they can do at this point.

But what if they mix offense and defense? Then you can cover what they could have done and otherwise not commit so deeply. What if they bait you? Then you recognize what they're looking for and do something different within your own mixup. What if they just do something you didn't expect? People have lots of habits, even the best players, so you will find trends over the course of a match and set. Studying positions helps and players helps you find these trends.
 

Dr Peepee

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First situation, I think Uair may have hit on your initial swing? Anyway after that, he doesn't bounce on the bomb so that should be a dash FH Fair there(or you could be turned around and get a Bair, which I find easier here). When Samus drifts in at the end I'd have either Utilted or just done a shield/DD grab on that late reaction since you do need more of a read to hit Fsmash since it's slow.

Second situation, that was honestly a super weird thing that Samus did LOL. But anyway, I don't agree with you dashing after Utilt there. A FH/DJ Uair will work just fine for what you need here. You either want to hit Samus before it comes out or after it's done or shield grab it pretty much, and once you committed to your jump it looks like that outcome wasn't really possible. Had you dashed and not jumped, you could have Fair'd or Utilted or grabbed or Fsmashed or whatever after the move finished it looks like....but I don't know why the Samus did a Dair and didn't just DJ to the top platform lol so weird.
 

Kotastic

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When discussing about juggling Luigi and Sheik awhile ago, I kind of got the takeaway that up air isn't super good for juggling due to up air being more likely to trade and requires more brainpower to continue juggling afterwards since they're above stage most likely towards center. Why do you think upairing Samus is more okay?

So first clip, I kind of reacted late and should DD/shield grab

Second clip, I dashed back because of the potential threat of shield drop in today's meta. Not sure if Samus falls fast enough to shield drop nair the uptilt lag, but at the very least I tried making it hard with dash back, but clearly the Samus player didn't do that. Guess I could've DD grabbed or something the dair as well.

Also, you advocate to dd/shield grab Samus on her way down, which obviously doesn't have much immediate rewards and forces a long game. Why not DD fair or fsmash instead? Do you value positioning more with throws?

Why do you think Samus mains always have the tendency to expend their charge shot when they're recovering near the ledge? I got charged shot like 20 times near the ledge with the last Samus I fought because I keep thinking, no way they're gonna shoot now when they can wait for a better opportunity to use this charge shot. Then I realize I might have been watching too much Plup. Because of this line of thinking, I get stubborn and don't hold my shield and the samus gets free damage and positioning. I think I will just shield more near the ledge, but perhaps some insights why Samus players do this will help me definitely hold shield.
 

Dr Peepee

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Ah, so Uair isn't always so ideal but if you're burning options before you hit it and you're in a good enough position to start using Bair/Fair afterward then Uair is fine. Many people get into the trap of Uair'ing a billion times and lose advantage either from being predictable or they get damage but then make it harder to get the kill as a result since you can't combo or get an easier juggle anymore since you hit them so high. The latter is what M2K does. Anyway, Uair'ing at low percent or mid percent that sets up pushing them offstage, or hits that take options/are the best you can get in a guaranteed sense are still okay to take.

The lightshield made me question whether Samus would shield drop is all, but fair enough. You can still make the dash work and either early FH/DJ or wait/fake.

Of course I'd greatly prefer Fair/Fsmash, especially since that mixup itself is so strong. But in some positions where you have little time to react, or ones in which you react late, you need to get whatever advantage you can out of it instead of forcing it. Those are certainly not my go-to's normally.

I think Samus players shoot when recovering near the edge because they can often recover out of it(and quickly with grapple) and many players are positioning to edgeguard, and charge shot extends past normal ranges and timings people are looking for. And of course some of it is that it works/works often enough so they'll keep doing it. I can relatively reliably react to the startup of the shot there too because I know they keep it in mind, so maybe it's just a simple thing to bear in mind/practice a little.
 

Kotastic

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Dr Peepee

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First one I was spaced too far and reacted too slowly, and the second I was too slow. M2K tends to do a decent job of getting these grabs and forcing rolls away vs Armada especially when he's hitting the reaction, which is typical. There are additional problems here as well. For the first, I didn't get much time to act since I weak hit Uair and also the camera made it hard to see his aerial + my own positioning together. For the second, I wasn't sure if he would airdodge to the platform and wasn't setting up any trap to beat Bair or anything else, which of course would make me slow. In this way, we can see that the setup of the juggle matters just as much as the options chosen.
 

Dr Peepee

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Well this is assuming he didn't shield, which would have changed a lot of things. Buuuut assuming he stood in that same place that whole time for some reason, I'd either try to WD Dtilt him earlier so he can't rush me first, or I'd say WD down and Dtilt or dash in WD back then potentially WD in or walk Dtilt. Maybe some retreating Nair/Fair as you mentioned but I'm less certain of that option against Samus after watching the matchup for a bit.
 

maclo4

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Has anyone downloaded the unclepunch training mod?

Ive been doing the tech chase simulator and holy cow its so so hard. Like just setting it so that fox shines or spotdodges frame 1 then trying to tech chase. I genuinely am questioning how its even humanly possible to be consistent at it. Just wondering if anyone else feels the same or if my reactions are bad or something. This also isnt the first time I've practiced tech chasing by any means but having something that shows you every time your slightly late is really revealing

Edit: What do you guys think of this, so I realized if you throw a spacie into the corner you can cover tech in place, tech away, and no tech all with WD fsmash. I tried doing it every time without reacting or changing it up and I'm pretty sure of you time it right it actually works for all 3 options. Obviously if you guess wrong you'll just be cornered but the odds are in your favor and its really hard to mess up
 
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Kotastic

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PP, I'm having trouble discerning when is a good time to jump, if at all, in the mirror when the Marth makes it ambiguous when he would standing/walk or WD dtilt. Obviously jump beats those, but if they wait a bit then they really hit me hard with fsmash or fair. Then if I don't jump at all, I just get choked and it feels kind of degenerate. How would you go about this?
 

Dr Peepee

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Hm well it may depend on how you want to jump. So if you wanted to defensively jump, then they may fake coming in and see that you like to jump, which they can soon exploit. If you then quit jumping and just dash back when they move in, then the solution to push into you is easy enough. Now if you wanted to offensively jump, then they could just wait a bit or use Dtilt recently to keep you encouraged to jump and this waiting would be enough. And of course there are other ways to beat Dtilt such as moving in and taking Dtilt then Dtilt'ing back(usually when attempting to Dtilt yourself), Fsmash, or at minimum running in after Dtilt to either beat the next one coming out or to attack the dash back/whatever option they try to use next. I think you can even JC grab after one Dtilt but it's a really hard thing to do so I'm not sure I'd recommend it.

Anyway, there are a lot of possible issues here I mentioned and I don't know exactly how it plays out for you. I think a good starting point at any rate is finding out how you'd like to beat Dtilt without jumping, or at the least playing the position when you know jump is being scouted. How does this sound?
 

Kotastic

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Hmm yeah, for some reason running into dtilt then dtilting back hasn't really crossed my mind, so I'll have to try that. Although, I suspect that it would lose to standing/slight walk dtilt since that's more likely to tipper so I can't easily CC it. Does RC dtilt beat standing dtilt? Those variants of dtilts really pressure me to jump AC nair in order to beat it, which then creates those issues I highlighted.

And yeah, I'd say on average my offensive jumps gets punished more often than my defensive jumps, but both can lead to me getting hard punished. I like using jump nair in place particularly to beat WD dtilt, but that's the only time where I think jump somewhat reliably works whereas other jumps I'm committing really hard.
 

Zorcey

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Couldn't you also walk in and Dtilt first? Depending on spacing I figure walk Dtilt could allow you to set up take Dtilt > Dtilt back as well as intercept their WD if they decide to do that. And RC Dtilt doesn't beat standing Dtilt - if they see you run in and tipper their Dtilt you'll get sent too far away to even Dtilt back.
 

Dr Peepee

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Hmm yeah, for some reason running into dtilt then dtilting back hasn't really crossed my mind, so I'll have to try that. Although, I suspect that it would lose to standing/slight walk dtilt since that's more likely to tipper so I can't easily CC it. Does RC dtilt beat standing dtilt? Those variants of dtilts really pressure me to jump AC nair in order to beat it, which then creates those issues I highlighted.

And yeah, I'd say on average my offensive jumps gets punished more often than my defensive jumps, but both can lead to me getting hard punished. I like using jump nair in place particularly to beat WD dtilt, but that's the only time where I think jump somewhat reliably works whereas other jumps I'm committing really hard.
As Zorcey said, you can also experiment with walking Dtilt some and this type of mixup can help you get your jump back as well as help you push in. If you WD in when close enough it's unlikely they'd get a tipper unless they Dtilt'ed in advance, which can obviously be used to your advantage. RC/WD Dtilt can beat standing Dtilt but you'd need to come in before or after theirs comes out usually. Something I notice is that if I whiff a moving forward Dtilt I can Dtilt again and I've slid a little bit farther forward from where I was when the first came out, which can be useful vs those who are trying to delicately space around the tool.

Yeah offensive jumps are easily the riskiest. Maybe you can try jumping in place and drifting in with Fair/Nair more often as a hybrid solution and this can help you control space if you find that they are ready for your approach.
 
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